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Sura 4:82 A Challenge
for Islam. Posts 742. Views 6597.
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Starjade
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Kayyam you said: Clearly your research was a staggering waste of time, because you cannot even get straight the most basic facts of the history. Starjade says: As a matter of fact I was trying to be as basic as I could be. Egyptian history is a lot of yackle and people will soon stop reading it. So I was giving the brief version of Egyptian history.
Starjade says: As a matter of fact the Muslim Hanifan is a knowledgeable scholar He suggested that it was a possibility that the Hatshepsut was the daughter of the Pharaoh whiles also being married to a Pharaoh. I thought was a most sensible and logical solution and so I researched Hatshepsut to find out if she was married to a Pharaoh at that Time and she was not. She only became married because Moses killed the Egyptian and fled Egypt. She then became married to her half brother who would have been Thutmose 111 if Moses had no children. But assumed the Title of Moses which was Thutmose 11. Yet really he was Thutmose 11 and 111.
If you wish to continue using "Nefure" you will kindly show me your source instead of this endless circular dance of evasion. You came here purporting to possess facts and yet you cannot even establish this little thing. Now tell me, where does this name come from, hmm? It is not inscribed in her tomb. Starjade says: I shall continue to use the name Nefure Hatshepsut as that is her name. As for where that name came from I picked that name up during my research as many call Hatshepsut by that name. They call her other names as well but I like the name Nefure. I did not keep all the records of all the Egyptian history I researched through and it would be a chore to go looking again. I am far too busy having religious debates and conversations with people to spare that Time my Time is always taxed you have no idea of the amount of people I speak with. Do your own research and do not pretend whiles you went searching through Egyptian data that you did not see others name Hatshepsut Nefure as I just will not believe you. I had that Time almost way back in 1994 when those conversations first took place in fact I made that Time. Of course it will not be inscribed on her Tomb don�t you know anything of the Egyptians and their beliefs. They believe all Pharaohs including their Queens are the reincarnation of the previous one. They should by those beliefs all have the same names.
Starjade says: Well, I have advised you before to not listen to the opinions of historians who�s data I often found incorrect myself. The period of Time referring to Moses places the Pharaoh Ahmose 1 on the Throne as the main King Pharaoh with Thutmose 1 as his co regent who became King after the death of the Pharaoh. Thutmose 1 was then the King and main ruling Pharaoh and it was his daughter who adopted Moses. Its hardly rocket science. The Old Testament made the error of not mentioning Thutmose 1 as the co regent Pharaoh but it is not really that relevant as he did become Pharaoh in the End. Whether you like it or not the Old Testament is also a history book. Kayyam you said: There are several hypotheses which place him variously under the Pharaohs Thutmose I, Rameses II and Akhenaten. BUT NO PROOF EXISTS. The ancient historian Manetho does not even mention a person named "Moses" in his writings. Starjade says: As I have said many historians disagree with each other. However. Moses was born during the reign of Ahmose 1 and Thutmose 1 and after losing his own Title he was around during the reign of Thutmose 11 and 111. For they would be the same person. Ramesese is just another name for Pharaoh. He was Thutmose 11 and 111.
Starjade says: You truly have a beef against Wyatt and yet I read his data and his is an archaeologist. He has covered a wide range of things that are astonishing. I reckon if it was not for you wanting to refute his and mine words you would have given him a medal for his dedication.
Your own writers in the links you gave were not so impressive in fact they did not mention Moses or who adopted him and kept away from religious history altogether. You also forgot to mention that these are statements from your own links were from ordinary people wanting to speak their ten penneth worth opinions on their views of Egypt. They were not archaeologists whereas at least Wyatt was and is. The writers you gave links too had data that is incorrect. And none of it even mentions the adoption of Moses which must have escaped their notice. That was what we were speaking about here. Or do you say that The Old Testament and the Koran are both wrong in even mentioning Moses and those Time periods. That is what this debate is about. Not of Egyptian history as much as religious history.
And what is that about your sources the writer a Caroline Seawright a full time worker, part time traveler, anime and manga lover and HTML programmer! She writes many articles on or about Egypt. Makes you think she is an Egyptian archaeologist when she is not. Huh. At least Wyatt is an archaeologist and well respected worldwide by what I can tell. So you are hardly one to talk. Or condemn unfairly Wyatt who�s only error that is distinct is the fact he believed in Jesus which does show his limitations.
Starjade says: I have seen many speak of Semnut and heard many varying bits of data yackle on about Semnut that varied so much I disregarded that data. Some say this and some say that. Some say Architect some say teacher some say Moses. I say that name isn�t relevant and it is a name also given to Moses. Hatshepsut did not have any male Children and the child seen with her on statues is male as can be seen by the forelock on its head and it is accepted by many that is Moses as a Child. A disagreement does not mean that isn�t Moses it is just that they do not know and do not want to commit themselves. However the children of Thutmose 11 by a concubine would not have been looked after by Nefure Hatshepsut but by that concubine and the teachers preparing that Child to be a Pharaoh.
Thus for a male child to be seen with Hatshepsut then that could only be Moses. Does it matter Kayyam after all it is not a matter of a name but a matter of was Hatshepsut married to a Pharaoh at the Time she adopted Moses and she was not. So that error still exists in the Koran and it is not a lone error is it. There are over 500 errors in the Koran including 11 Chapters of the Koran glorifying Jesus as being the Prophet that Jesus has proclaimed himself as being. Every Muslim knows the living God of Moses only promised to raise up one Prophet not two who both claimed they were that one Prophesied Prophet. Muhammad made a mistake believing in Jesus and not knowing Jesus proclaimed he was that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up and the Koran made that mistake of confirming Christianity and their claims about Jesus when Deuteronomy law brought down by Moses already establishes that Jesus is a fraud along with the whole of the New Testament.
Starjade says: The Koran also says that Exodus took place so I take it you are saying you are not impressed with the Koran.? Well finally we agree on something. I have never been impressed by religious doctrines. Although Siddhartha Guatama the founder of Buddhism did impress me. I am not bound within the confines of any particular liturgical form of worship. I do not care if any Exodus took place one way or the other. Yet one has to consider why they would make such a claim from those days of Old is something in what they were witness too had not happened. It would be illogical to just invent such a story without any reason.
Starjade says: Mmm now let me think a whiles at that right tuffy question. There was Moses now surely your not going to call Moses a liar are you ? and Aaron and Thutmoses 11/111 or Ramesese if you prefer that name which I do actually Nefure Hatshepsut of course. All the elders of the children of Israel and the people themselves. Do you want their names ?
Exodus 6:14 These be the heads of their fathers' houses: The sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel; Hanoch, and Pallu, Hezron, and Carmi: these be the families of Reuben. Exodus 6:15 And the sons of Simeon; Jemuel, and Jamin, and Ohad, and Jachin, and Zohar, and Shaul the son of a Canaanitish woman: these are the families of Simeon. Exodus 6:16 And these are the names of the sons of Levi according to their generations; Gershon, and Kohath, and Merari: and the years of the life of Levi were an hundred thirty and seven years. Exodus 6:17 The sons of Gershon; Libni, and Shimi, according to their families. Exodus 6:18 And the sons of Kohath; Amram, and Izhar, and Hebron, and Uzziel: and the years of the life of Kohath were an hundred thirty and three years. Exodus 6:19 And the sons of Merari; Mahali and Mushi: these are the families of Levi according to their generations. Exodus 6:20 And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses: and the years of the life of Amram were an hundred and thirty and seven years. Exodus 6:21 And the sons of Izhar; Korah, and Nepheg, and Zichri. Exodus 6:22 And the sons of Uzziel; Mishael, and Elzaphan, and Zithri. Exodus 6:23 And Aaron took him Elisheba, daughter of Amminadab, sister of Naashon, to wife; and she bare him Nadab, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. Exodus 6:24 And the sons of Korah; Assir, and Elkanah, and Abiasaph: these are the families of the Korhites. Exodus 6:25 And Eleazar Aaron's son took him one of the daughters of Putiel to wife; and she bare him Phinehas: these are the heads of the fathers of the Levites according to their families. Exodus 6:26 These are that Aaron and Moses, to whom the LORD said, Bring out the children of Israel from the land of Egypt according to their armies. (tee hee hee) Should I go on or do you get the point that I answer to your question. Both the Old Testament and the Koran confirm that Exodus do you then doubt those accounts.?
Starjade says: Whiles I note your opinion it is just an opinion you have. The Time periods of that history do show who was the Pharaoh and his daughter who adopted Moses. And that is what the error found in the Koran is about. Egyptian history shows Hatshepsut was not married to a Pharaoh at the Time she adopted Moses and so Egyptian history does confirm that it was the daughter of the Pharaoh who adopted Moses not the Pharaohs wife. You refusing to accept that fact is what is being intellectually dishonest. That matter is settled.
Now let me see you try and explain away just why Muhammad believed in Jesus and believed that Jesus was the Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to being causing 11 Chapters of the Koran to glorify Jesus as being that prophet that Jesus claimed himself as being. Which we all know was the Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet that the living God promised Moses he would raise up which is the reason why they called Jesus the King of the Jews that Prophet to the Nation.
Then try and explain away why it is that although Muhammad believed in Jesus and believed Jesus was genuine and the Prophet that Jesus claimed himself as being. That Muhammad then claims the Angel Gabriel that was used to authenticate Jesus as being that Prophet Jesus had claimed himself to being. Appeared on a Mountain so Muhammad has claimed and then told Muhammad he was that Prophet instead. Bearing in mind there are no witnesses to this Angel Gabriel appearing anyplace at all especially on the Mountain which was all just Muhammad�s own words.
And explain if you dare if you can which you cannot as we all already know. Why it is Muhammad then proclaims that he is that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up in Chapters 18 verses 15/18 of the Old Testament. This is why all Muslims call Muhammad that Prophet to the Nation.
Also explain how Muhammad claims he is that Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet when according to Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 laws you would need witnesses to prove such a thing and Muhammad has absolutely no witnesses to back up his own word of mouth claims. Deuteronomy law as brought down by Moses himself says Muhammad could not be that Prophet that the living God promised Moses he would raise up and neither could Jesus.
Whiles you ponder shirking these matters that you cannot possible find a sensible reply to explain also how it is Muhammad claimed he was the last prophet to come from God which is a claim that does stand against Deuteronomy law Ch 19 v 15. And that any other who comes along after him saying they are a Prophet from God must be liars and be put to death. Then in contradiction believes that Jesus will come along after him. Jesus is claimed by Muhammad and the Koran and a gaggle full of Christians to be a Prophet from God even thought they are all mistaken.
They make me laugh by trying to explain away the fact that the much loved Deuteronomy Doomsday prophet Starjade can be proven by Deuteronomy law to be a Prophet with a provable connection to the living God hence a real Prophet from God by that very specific Law of Moses Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 which is a law brought down by Moses from the living God himself and is therefore the actual word of the living God.
Muhammad�s own words stands against Deuteronomy law and the word of the living God of Moses. These matters show deceptions in the claims and the words of Muhammad that can only be looked on as being Blasphemous to promote the murder of any Prophet that the living God chooses to send to this Planet. In 1995 it can be proven that I have approached the Jews with details of an ever nearing apocalypse that will cause mass extinction of this planet with a view to an Exodus from the four corners of the globe to await a new Promised land that will arrive in the South eastern Atlantic basin next to Africa on that apocalyptic day. And I was the one who brought the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 to the Jews attention for the sake of their congregations after all that law binds all the Jews and does establish that I alone am the specific Prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up which is why the whole of Islam and Christianity bites the Dust.
I did more than talk the talk I have already taken that step forwards and walked the walk. The false pretenders to my Throne pale into insignificance. They could not and did not wear my shoes. Only I am that Deuteronomy Prophet and be certain of my power over all of you. As I have seen many apocalyptic earthquakes world wide be sure than I can invoke that penalty for blasphemy and stone your congregations to their deaths in earthquake rubble. So then it is not the wise to show complacency. The living God hath said you must not follow false Prophets and false Gods. To do so makes you guilty of Blasphemy. Blasphemy carries a death penalty a death by stoning. I can stone entire continents to death and so my hands become tied.
I have more than the four witnesses required by Deuteronomy law who can verify that I do Prophesise real earthquakes and volcanoes erupting. Now we all know Jesus and Muhammad never made such prophecies of such grave disasters. Muhammad and Jesus never attempted to mass Exodus the Blasphemous Jews from the four corners of the globe either did they? Whiles they bragged they were that specific Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet they forgot to actually fulfil the living Gods Prophecy in fact they could not. The Jews were not even scattered to the four corners of the globe when Jesus and Muhammad had lived. They are both guilty of Crimes of Iniquity and Sin. Found guilty by Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 law no less as brought down by Moses from the living God making that law the actual word of the living God. How very apt eh.
So come on Kayyam you think you can score some points for Islam when you are already done and dusted and can only see a small part of a much bigger picture. I then will laugh out so loud you will even hear me with your head buried deep in the sand. You truly have no idea just who it is you are up against even when I lay it all on a platter for you.
I named many minor errors found in the Koran just to prove the point by the Sura 4:82 challenge. But there are even bigger errors that you just cannot give accounts for and my being that specific Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet that the living God promised Moses he would raise up means that you are not arguing these points with any ordinary man. I am the only Lord King of this apocalyptic Castle and that is why all who come against me will always bite the Dust. And I must say I find it most annoying that those of you who claim to be religious are ignoring the laws of the Living God and I remind you also at this Time of the Islamic law that I have invoked that Muslims are seen to be ignoring. Religion is not some game to play. Take it seriously for the day will come when you also must Journey beyond the grave and it would be the wise of you to be prepared for that Journey.
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Starjade
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Starjade says: I thought it funny when you came online quoting the name Maatkara as if you had discovered that Title and now you are obsessed. However she was still the daughter who adopted Moses and she still was not married at that Time. And yes I know that was your link and it was a link also given by the Muslim Hanifan and I researched further than that. That daughter of the Pharaoh was not married to anyone when she adopted Moses and none of your links mention that adoption. And your links were not to archaeologists. Mine were even if they lead to Wyatt whom you hope to discredit on just your word.
Starjade says: You mean you are going to stick to blabbering about a name when in fact that specific female still adopted Moses and was not married and so was not anyones wife. Otherwise of course you would have to then face those other errors in the Koran that we all know you prefer to shirk.
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Starjade Joined: 28
February 2006
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Kayyam
you said: I notice you failed to respond to my other comments
and just went into a diatribe of your own. Among various debating techniques,
I was not aware that ignoring the opponent's points was a valid one.Kayyam Starjade says: Nobody was ignoring your posts. I had no time left to reply. I have replied on those since at my next access to Cyberspace. Learn to have some patience and stop deluding yourself. I do not need to ignore posts so do not go filling your ego with delusions. Already you have lost the argument but you will not give up the ghost.
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Starjade Joined: 28
February 2006
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Starjade says: I noticed your errors but they were insignificant to me. I have not made any errors other than the mistake of supplying you with links I thought led to someone other than the archeologist Wyatt whom you did not like.
Starjade says: There were in fact other females as well. And I do note that you believe anything written except for the truth.
Starjade says: I can see you have been reading a lot recently. Nefure Hatshepsut Maatkarra has other names as well. Mnay people call her different things. However she was the daughter of the Pharaoh who adopted Moses and she was not anyones wife and so the Koran was and is wrong.
Starjade says: I have already made my statements. I am not doing your research for you. Fact is the Daughter of Thutmose 1 adopted Moses she was not married at that Time and so the Koran is wrong it was not the wife of any Pharaoh who adopted Moses it was the daughter of the Pharaoh. Do you deny this. Are you attempting to prove it was a wife not a daughter. No instead you prefer to yackle on about a name instead and avoid the crutch question of was it wife or daughter. Can you deny it was the daughter. Do you think you have proof it was the wife. Well then make your points on that. Stop trying to shirk away from those other errors that Muslims are afraid to take on. __________________ |
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I
have done my own research and it was easy to find the errors in your
account. I have shown you many sources as proof. It is you who have
not done the research. I don't care how "taxed" your time
is making wild propositions all over the internet. If you can't support
your claims, they are bogus. Now you have wasted your precious time
filling up another page with your self-aggrandizing nonsense that could
have been spent coming up with an archeological artifact bearing the
name Nefure in reference to the Pharaoh. You have repeatedly ignored
the most powerful of my remarks and advanced the discussion according
to your own agenda. I don't care an iota what you did in 1994 or what
Muslim you have talked to or any of that personal hooey that you spill
on a regular basis as a cheap substitute for responding to my challenges. |
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silkworm
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Nice typing Starjade, I must say that you are an expert in typing!!! Bravo
Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright untill then you hear them speak |
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Starjade
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Starjade
says: Well thankyou Silkworm. After the hundreds of emails
and of course posts and arguments and debates i certainly got the practise.
And i must write fast as my Time is taxed and then after replying to
one soul i must go onto the next.
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Starjade Joined: 28
February 2006
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Kayyam
you say:
Starjade says: Your research was with Caroline Seawright a full time worker, part time traveler, anime and manga lover and HTML programmer! She writes many articles on or about Egypt. Hahahaha and that was your research and you accepted the first line of statement as if it was true. Even in Caroline Seawrights essay there are errors when you look more closely. So you have not found any errors in my words only in a dispute about a name that you know is a name given to Hatshepsut which is Nefure. And yes she had a daughter by that name and her mother is said to have similar name and so you are still left with the dilemma that it was the daughter of the Pharaoh who adopted Moses and not the wife.
Kayyam you say: I have shown you many sources as proof. It is you who have not done the research. I don't care how "taxed" your time is making wild propositions all over the internet. If you can't support your claims, they are bogus.
Starjade says: I did support my statements and you replies with an essay from a Caroline Seawright a full time worker, part time traveler, anime and manga lover and HTML programmer! So in your eyes that must make you an expert then in your eyes. But not in mine. My Time being taxed limits what I can do in supplying you with the intricate details of Egyptian history. I just do not have the Time to stop to give you that data.
Kayyam you say: Now you have wasted your precious time filling up another page with your self-aggrandizing nonsense that could have been spent coming up with an archeological artifact bearing the name Nefure in reference to the Pharaoh.
Starjade says: The people speaking of Nefure Hatshepsut certainly use here name so it was not invented and if you did research then you will have seen them use that name. But if I drop that name you are still in that same position of denial for it was Hatshepsut who adopted Moses and she was not married to any Pharaoh at that Time. Hence the Koran is still in error making that name Nefure irrelevant. My Time wasn�t wasted as it is proof of how easily islam and the Koran and the claims of Muhammad ad bite the dust.
Kayyam you say: You have repeatedly ignored the most powerful of my remarks and advanced the discussion according to your own agenda. I don't care an iota what you did in 1994 or what Muslim you have talked to or any of that personal hooey that you spill on a regular basis as a cheap substitute for responding to my challenges. Kayyam
Starjade says: (cough) erm I am the one who is here challenging Islam. So you are not challenging me it is me challenging the followers of your religion. And you lot are losing that debate. I have not ignored any of your remarks but replied almost line by line to all you have said. I was busy in conversations with the Jews in 1994/95 regarding details of the apocalypse with a view to an Exodus from the four corners of the globe. Jews are a most irritating and annoyingly blasphemous people. But in those past Times I was fulfilling the Living Gods Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophecy. That is something nobody else on this Planet could ever have done and I did it in accordance with Deuteronomy law.
Muhammad and Jesus did not satisfy that Deuteronomy Prophecy. They could not did not and cannot. What I did in those days was phenomenal and to this day my words still stand undisputed.
Already you have seen many errors that are found in the Koran and you are shirking them to argue some useless point about a name. Can you honestly explain why Muhammad believed in Jesus and why 11 Chapters of the Koran glorify Jesus as being the Prophet that Jesus claimed himself to being. Right then do not pretend there are no errors found in the Koran. Speaking of the Koran Sura 4:82. Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein. Now 11 Chapters of the Koran are a lot of unexplainable errors. You cannot account for them in fact you are shirking them obviously.
The Koran itself admits that it does not come from God and you even argue against the Koran itself. Well the Koran is in error it was the daughter of the Pharaoh who adopted Moses. Not the wife as the Koran claimed. Who cares what she is called that error still exists in the Koran along with many more errors that your muslims in your thousands cannot give sound answers for. You are bound by Islamic law and must reject what is found to not be true and you must accept what is true. It is true that errors exist in the koran and the Sura 4:82 explains exactly why. __________________ |
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Kayyam |
I've got you
pinned down now Starjade and I am not going to let you up. |
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Kayyam
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Kayyam said: If you wish to continue using "Nefure" you will kindly show me your source instead of this endless circular dance of evasion. You came here purporting to possess facts and yet you cannot even establish this little thing. Now tell me, where does this name come from, hmm? It is not inscribed in her tomb.
Kayyam said: How do you know that Hatshepsut adopted Moses? As I have said already, historians do not possess any hard facts about Moses and have not been able to prove that he was other than mythological. There are several hypotheses which place him variously under the Pharaohs Thutmose I, Rameses II and Akhenaten. BUT NO PROOF EXISTS. The ancient historian Manetho does not even mention a person named "Moses" in his writings.
Kayyam said: More Wyatt junk. The names written on the statue are Senmut and Neferure. As Wyatt admits, most historians disagree with his radical interpretation.
Kayyam said: I am not at all impressed by your faith in the Exodus.
Kayyam said:
Please give
me a reference to someone who was around in those times and claims there
was an Exodus.
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Kayyam
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Now
it is your turn to show me some archeological references to a "Pharaoh
Nefure Hatshepsut", because I have not found any.
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