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Sura 4:82 A Challenge
for Islam. Posts 742. Views 6597.
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Starjade
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Katatoni bliss you said: this will be my last post for a while. Starjade says: So sneaking away with your Kuffar shirking tail between your legs eh. What excuse do you give this Time. You know if you write in Cyberspace I can find you out. :) Katatoni bliss you said: Starjade, I read your 'rebuttal' and all I can say is that you are one arrogant, self-contradicting, self-worshipping moron. Starjade says: You see Katatonic that is all you have ever done is cast abuse. You do it every time we meet and it does you know good at all. Its called you blowing off a Tantrum. Others do not share you view and there was nothing wrong with my reply. Katatoni bliss you said: 1. You call me childish when I call you an idiot, and yet you turn right around and insult me with worse. Great way to prove your point. Prophets do not insult people. Starjade says: This Prophet can and does insult people and so hard core I flay you to the bone and yet in your case as you wriote at length I was being kind to you. When a person insults me I inflict seven times more blows on them as they would have done to me but I am better at it than they are. Katatoni bliss you said: 2. you say no Muslim has been able to dispute your 'claims' but then again I just did dispute it. You need to learn what certain words of the english language mean. Starjade says: You entered the debate in a dispute but did not dispute successfully and only your words were proven to be wrong and so my words are proven to be undisputable and your account was not good enough. You should keep to facts instead of personal opinions. And I came as a first born from the Blackpool of Lancashire and we invent our own English words here if we want to. Come on admit it you want to use some of them don�t you like blabberwockying. :) Now there is a good one. :) Katatoni bliss you said: 3. You challenged me to quote a verse to prove my point, but then you have NEVER quoted from the Qur'an. If you want to prove your point, don't pull a double standard. Starjade says: Read this thread as you read others on other forums. I always quote errors that are found in the Koran. I back up my mouth in the beginnings. How can you say publicly that I do not quote from the Koran or point out errors when speaking with Muslims. I do that every time I speak of the errors in the Koran so your accusation is unjust. Read or scan through these pages again. My first post said it all but some eraserhead erased it. But others are there for you and all Muslims to see and attempt to dispute or give accounts for. Katatoni bliss you said: that's enough of the MANY contradictions just in your above post alone. I'd like to focus on your site now. Starjade says: Well go ahead but the web site belongs to Liberty irl the American Philosopher who collected some of my writings and put them on that web site to read. Many other web sites also display many of those writings. Some web sites were made just so others like you could sl*g me off when they lost so badly to me but its OK good or bad publicity promotes the name of Starjade. Katatoni bliss you said: 1. Your site is apparently forbidden to be read by anyone who doesn't believe in your perversions of religion... otherwise, Death will come and shove his scythe up their ass. [your words, not mine]. That's not really very mature, now is it? Bad false prophet. BAD!!! Starjade says: Yeah there is a forbidden unless they have permission thing written as I was pissed off at that Time. Do you reckon anyone will listen and not press a link when they read that then :) I do not have a religion and so you are in error. Why would I believe that god exists when I know that the living God exists due to a personal encounter.? Oh you like the Gif eh. Yeah I liked it too so I thought I would place it on what is an apocalyptic web site. I may not own the site but I was trained as a web designer and so Liberty Girl did give me the access codes to add stuff or censor stuff wasn�t that nice of her. Katatoni bliss you said: 2. You also claim to have ESP and psychic abilities. Alright buddy, predict something that will happen in my life. And don't give me this vague 'something bad will happen' crap. I want details. Starjade says: I am not your puppet. I do not give a damn what you do or where you go. I only needed to show the Jews my amazing paranormal abilities and I can and did and you can see for yourself that those witnesses do back up those claims and Deuteronomy law says I only need two or three witnesses to prove those abilities. It was not some ego trip I was on saying look at what I can do. By proving I am a genuine Prophet with a provable connection to the living God I would be able to force the Jews to Exodus from the four corners of the globe and I showed off my abilities with that life saving Exodus in mind. But understand I do not give a damn about the Jews. To me they are just people and I could save the lives of millions of millions of people and lets face it the arrival of the long awaited Deuteronomy Prophet appearing and those Jews gathering would have caused others to listen also. So it was a sensible move and all with the intent of saving billions from dying in other earthquakes and things that I had once again prophesied about. Now why would you condemn me for working out a way of saving the lives of millions of millions of people in such impossible circumstances? It defies common sense. Katatoni bliss you said: 3. Your justification to your claim that you are the prophet of Deut. 18 is nothing less than idiotic. Who are you descended from? Starjade says: As I have just explained to you my abilities to prophesy real earthquakes is proven by religious law. I am a Prophet with a provable connection to the living God and the Jews are waiting in their millions for such a Prophet and by proving I am that Deuteronomy prophet specifically then I could according to the Jews religion force them all to Exodus out of those earthquake zones and trust me my plans did go way beyond even that Exodus. That is the reason why I approached the Jews with proof that I was that specific Deuteronomy Prophet to cause that world wide Exodus and save the lives of potentially billions. If you looked more closely and stopped being so bitter you would see the logic of my claiming to be that specific Deuteronomy Prophet. And that Exodus was of all the descendants of Abraham and the Arabs came from Ishmael and that is what led to these Islamic conversations. It is logical also that I would condemn the false Prophets and all the pretenders to my Throne. My acts are blameless and I am only condemned by idolaters. As for where I am descended from you would not believe me. Yet I am descended from the living God. I am a son of the living God and the Living God is my father. Yes I understand why you could not believe who could eh. But the Jews are a different people. Now here is a link explaining my birth so you understand why I can and do say these things and I can back up my mouth. Where Starjade the Doomsday Prophet descended from. http://www.geocities.com/end_of_times/chapterone.htm Katatoni bliss you said: 4. your 'title' is very intriguing. Let me post it for all to see: The End of Times Doomsday Prophet. The Lord King and King of Kings, Starjade. The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether Starjade says: Are you really this dim. That Title is already at the bottom of the page. Did it confuse you (tee hee) but then you are not religious are you. Religious scholars here and elsewhere know what is means. Katatoni bliss you said: Now, first line... the End of Times Doomsday Prophet will be Jesus. Since you denounce Jesus, you aren't Jesus, therefore, you aren't the Doomsday prophet. Starjade says: Your religious ignorance just shines through. The End of Times Prophet is the Deuteronomy Prophet that the living God promised Moses he would raise up. Just because Jesus claimed he was that Prophet that does not make it true. Produce two or three witnesses who can establish that Jesus is that Prophet when Deuteronomy law established that he is not. Oh and Muhammad also claimed that he is that Deuteronomy Prophet and go ask some real Muslims if you doubt me. Produce two or three witnesses who can establish that Muhammad is that Prophet when Deuteronomy law established that he is not. Yet again you are in error. I am established by Deuteronomy law to be that specific Prophet and Deuteronomy law is the word of God and I named more than four witnesses. Katatoni bliss you said: Second line: Lord King and King of Kings. OH! wait! I've heard those titles before. Christians gave those titles to God the Son [Jesus] when they decided to invent the Trinity. Starjade says: yes they did give such a Title to Jesus because he claimed he was the Deuteronomy Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up and the long awaited Deuteronomy Prophet is the Lord King of all the Jews. When I speak of Jews by the way that is all the descendants of Abraham and not just the orthodox Jews. Now you see the Title is genuine as Deuteronomy law established that I am that very specific Deuteronomy Prophet. Whiles that same law proves Jesus is not. Katatoni bliss you said: Because Jesus is Lord King, and he's also the King of Kings according to the Trinity. Starjade says: Jesus is a pretender to my Throne and is established by Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 to be a fraud and you said it yourself. The Christians make those claims not the living God. And I will scoff st your Christian claims of a trinity. Bewary as Christianity has also bitten the dust. Katatoni bliss you said: Both these titles assert that the bearer of the titles is God, Starjade says: No it does not. I am a Lord King and I am a King of Kings. Those other Kings being man made Kings. As I have oft said you are most religiously ignorant and in no position to voice your opinions and thoughts as if they were facts. Bring factual evidence to my breakfast table. Katatoni bliss you said: because only God can be Lord King and King of Kings. Are you God? If not, you have just committed some SERIOUS blasphemy. Starjade says: According to the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 it can be established by the word of the living God that I am not guilty of any crime of iniquity or sin and Therefore your accusation of Blasphmey is unsound by the laws and word of the living God. That is why I brought that law to the jews in the first place. You see that is how things are done by Deuteronomy law. The Living God is not the Lord King I am. The living God is my creator. Your personal religious views are seriously flawed as I have pointed out to you in the beginnings. Katatoni bliss you said: Third Line: from what I gather, the Living White Sphere of Kether is God in your eyes. So you have jumped from being God to the crown of God.... great job in looking like a moron. Starjade says: Whosoever taught you your religious views should have their heads cut off their shoulders. The Living White Sphere is the shape and colour of the living God. I know as I did have a personal encounter and I am the living Gods long awaited Crown. The Statement speaks for itself whiles you are deluding yourself to what the obvious says due to your seriously flawed religious beliefs. Katatoni bliss you said: You are not here to learn. You are here to insult and demean the quality of this forum and it's members. I hereby motion for the banning of StarJade. Starjade says: I already know the religious beliefs of others and I am a teacher of religious matters not a student. So others learn from me. I only speak of Islam and the errors of the Koran and Muhammad under Islamic law and the Sura 4:82 challenge of the Koran by the invitation of other Muslims. So I have been very respectful even when it was not deserving that I should be. The quality of this forum or any other improves when a writer of my quality starts speaking. My words are pure gold. Despite the hubal al�ilah thingy Muslims do genuinely want to worship the living God and they do not want to be committing blasphemy and so they are given that chance of Redemption. As for banning me hahaha I write in many places as you well know. A ban means the muslims here ignored Islamic law and the Sura 4:82 challenge and were defeated by me. I shall be simply writing on another forum and as I do the word is passed. Of course you find yourself humiliated and defeated and powerless so you want to hide it all away and bury your heads in the sand. But it does not go away. I am also a desktop publisher with my own books ready for a print. It is wiser that Muslims face these matters now then be foolish as to try and make a fuss at a more public level. I am not like Salmon Rushdie and all my words are proven true by Deuteronomy law and Islamic law and even by the words of the Koran. I am the challenger and it is the Imams who are the ones who are hiding away from me. They cannot run away as they have chicken legs and I will eat them for breakfast in any public form and you just know I am the sort who loves these religious conflicts especially as I always win. I
did warn everyone here in the beginnings I am formidable and you already
knew that from other forums as you watched everyone bite the dust.
So I am looking forwards to those future days of religious conflicts
and woe betide all those who dare to come against me.
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Starjade 
Senior Member Joined: 28 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Online Religion: None Posts: 343 |
Holy Eeeketh what was that.?
I just got ten penalties for an offensive word and i wonder which it
was
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| Starjade
Senior Member Joined: 28 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Online Religion: None Posts: 343 |
And I am still waiting
for you to appear Dr. Deen.
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iris89 
Junior Member Joined: 06 March 2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Religion: Christian(Non-denominational ) Posts: 243 |
Hi Everyone I recommend we ban everyone against the prophet of the 21st. century, The End of Times Doomsday Prophet, the one and only Starjade. He is a greater prophet than any that ever came out of Arabia and individuals are being very disrespectful of him. Besides being a prophet, none Christian if you mine, he is a scholar of Islam and its short comings.
Your Friend in Christ Iris89 |
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Starjade
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Aw gosh gee thats so nice of you to say Iris.
And look at Isaiah Everyone seems to want to listen to him and yet he
walked around naked for many years looking for signs from God and he
believed in Unicorns.
And here am I stating the obvious and Deuteronomy law and islamic law
and the Sura 4:82 and the sound of my words gets drowned out by the
sound of a great gnashing of teeth. I cannot see what Isaiah did that made him so popular. He did not Prophesy earthquakes or volcanoes erupting. Who says he is a prophet from god anyways. Yet everyone seems to think his word is godsent. A Prophet is a Prophet when his prophecy of the future does come true.
Lets face it many can rant and rave of things they believe will happen during the
Apocalyptic End of Times day. Yet that does not make them a Porphet
from God. The law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 can establish such
a thing though.
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Starjade
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Oh by the way Katatonic bliss I forgot to reply to a point you made. You pointed out that the errors in the Koran I mentioned on the End of Times web site had no Suras attached to them. My replies were to a Muslim and writ on the day of when he challenged me to the Sura 4:82 challenge. Now I did not want to clog pages up with pages of Suras that show as errors in the Koran. You see all Muslims are supposed to be memorizing the Koran and so I assumed the Muslims would already know of exactly what it is that I was speaking about and having memorized the Koran could do their own referencing. Take the matter of Jesus for instance. All Muslims know Muhammad believed in Jesus and there are 11 Chapters of the Koran glorifying Jesus as being the Prophet that Jesus and the Christians and writers of the new Testament were all claiming Jesus as being. Now I did not feel a need to quote every sura of those 11 Chapters and so I simply pointed out what its Koranic text had said and why it was an error. It was clear Muhammad and the writers of the Koran did not know that Jesus had proclaimed that he was that Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet that the living God promised Moses he would raise up. Yet that is the Prophet that Jesus had proclaimed himself to being and that is why they called him the King of the Jews. So it is a serious error in 11 Chapters of the Koran to glorify Jesus as being that Prophet that the New Testament and the Christians and Jesus himself was claiming to be. Because the very Prophet that Muhammad had proclaimed himself as being was that same Deuteronomy Ch 18 verse 15/18 prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. That is why they call Muhammad the Prophet to the Nation. Those Titles are only given to Jesus and Muhammad because they claimed that they were that very specific Deuteronomy Prophesied Prophet of Ch 18 v 15/18. Now you cannot deny these matters do exist in the Koran and neither can any Muslim. These are undisputed errors that do exist in the Koran. In the days of Muhammad Christianity was just spreading to them and so they did not know Christianity in any depth. That is also why the Koran does not quote from the Old or new Testaments correctly as they just did not have a memory for such details. They would have realized had Christian preachers not yackled on about the false Prophet Jesus being the Son of God so much. Few Muslim�s realized that Jesus had claimed that he was that Deuteronomy Prophet 1000 years before Muhammad was even born. Hence 11 Chapters of errors do exist in the Koran which stands directly against the claims of Muhammad. There was not reason to name specific suras however a Muslim finding himself unable to reply a sound answer for the 21 errors that I had named existed in the Koran asked me instead to find and name Suras in the Koran that he could look up. He was of course shirking excuses and it must have left him gobsmacked when I then produced over 500 errors along with the Suras that exist in the Koran. Then came the usual sound of Islamic silence. Many have studied the Koran with care and many discrepancies have been found in the Koran and those errors and those discrepancies as the Koran itself admits. Established that the Koran did not come from God as Muhammad had claimed and those errors disprove the claims of Muhammad who is clearly presumptuous to think he could speak in Gods name. The 21 errors I named do exist in the Koran and the Sura 4:82 challenge stated I only needed to find just one error in the Koran to prove that the Koran does not come from God. After all the living God of Abraham and of Moses and of Starjade does not make mistakes. You have seen right here in this thread I named other errors in the Koran and gave Suras of those errors for Islamic scholars to go checking on. You do not see them dare a reply of course in admittance but they are not blind and can see the errors really do exist in the Koran and so as the Koran admits. Sura 4:82 the Koran does not and did not come from God. So whats a Muslim going to do eh. The Islamic law that was invoked in the beginnings states that all muslims must reject what is not true and accept what is true. Otherwise what kind of Muslims are those who ignore Islamic law and the words of the Sura 4:82 of the Koran itself. I did not list out all the over 500 errors on the End of Times web site but elsewhere in Cyberspace they are everywhere. Muslims think they can escape the Sura 4:82 Challenge by shirking away. But they made a mistake goading me into accepting that challenge for I challenged the whole of Islam and you can see Islam is powerless and defenseless against me and my God given Revelations. Anyhow Katatonic despite your bitter mouth you did bring some good points up and I think I have answered them as best I can. If you have anymore enquiries you know I am easy enough to reach out to. :)
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| Starjade
Senior Member Joined: 28 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Online Religion: None Posts: 343 |
And just where is that Dr. Deen. ?
I have shown you how astonishing my patience really is. Now if
you Muslims cannot bring yourselves to reply of follow Islamic law or
the Sura 4:82 of the Koran |
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Doctor Deen
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Well...well...starjade...you just couldn't wait for me to show up...couldn't you..huh? well...i am not used to give excuses and i'll definitely not give them to you... Starjade...you said that there was a contradiction between the Koran and the Old Testament between who adopted Moses... well read this... Philological Explanation The word for 'daughter' and the word for 'house' were written identically b_t in early Hebrew and open to misconstruction by anyone not familiar with the Egyptian usage. To an Egyptian the word 'house' was also used -and indeed, still is- to signify a wife: to a Hebrew it meant either 'house' in the sense of a building or 'household'. Later, both Hebrew and the language of Ancient Egypt, which had no written vowels, began to use some consonants like y to indicate long vowels. Thus,for example, we find a slightly different spelling for b_t Phar'a in the Book of Genesis account of events when Jacob, the father of Joseph, died. Joseph, who wanted permission to take him back to Canaan for burial, did not speak to the king directly but to the b_y_t Phar'a , the Hebrew word signifying 'the house of Pharaoh': 'And when the days of his mourning were past, Joseph spake unto the house of Pharaoh, saying, if now I have found grace in your eyes, speak I pray you, in the ears of Pharaoh...' (Genesis 50:4). 'Pharaoh' itself means 'the great house'. Thus b_y_t Phar'a signifies the 'house of the great house', which in the Egyptian sense would mean the queen whose intercession he sought in the matter of his father's burial. There is an example of similar usage earlier in the Book of Genesis when the brothers who had earlier sold Joseph into slavery made their second trip to Egypt at a time of famine. On this occasion Joseph revealed his true identity and was so moved that he 'wept aloud: and the Egyptians and the house of Pharaoh heard' (Genesis 45:2). This had been construed as meaning that Joseph's weeping was so loud that it was audible in the royal palace, but I interpret it as meaning that the queen heard the news of his brother's arrival. In this second example the word used is again b_y_t Phar'a. However, in the Book of Exodus, where we have the story of the Pharaoh's daughter going down to bathe, finding the Hebrew child in the rushes and later adopting him, the y is absent and we have simply b_t Phar'a. My suspicion was that during the ninth century BC, the early stages of written Hebrew when the Old Testament was given permanent form, all three words had been written in this way, referring in each instance to the 'house of Pharaoh', the reigning queen and the y in the two Genesis references had been added late, as written Hebrew developed, because the scribe did not understand the special Egyptian usage of the word 'house'. This, while not easy to establish, proved to be the case. The Hebrew Masoretic text we have now goes back only to around the tenth century AD and could not throw any light on the matter. Nor could sections of the Old Testament found in the caves of Qumran, near the Dead Sea, some of which belong to the second century BC. Confirmation was eventually provided by the Moabite Stone. This black basalt inscribed stone was left by Mesha, King of Moab, at Dhiban (biblical Dibon, to the east of the Dead Sea) to commemorate his revolt against Israel and his subsequent rebuilding of many towns ( II Kings, 3:4-5). This stone was found by the Revd F.Klein, a German missionary working with the Church Missionary Society, on 19 August 1868 and is now in the Louvre in Paris. The inscription refers to the triumph of ' Mesha, ben Chemosh, King Of Moab', whose father reigned over Moab for thirty years. he tells how he (Mesha) threw off the yoke of Israel and honoured his god, Chemosh. According to the American archaeologist James B.Pritchard, a professor at t6he University of Pennsylvania; ' The date of the Mesha Stone is fixed roughly by the referenece to Mesha, King of Moab, in II Kings 3:4-5, after 849 BC. However, since the contents of the stela point to a date toward the end of the king's regin, it seems probable that it should be placed between 840 and 820, perhaps about 830 BC in round numbers'. The text reads: 'I [am] Mesha, son of Chemosh...King of Moab... I said to all the people:" Let each of you make a cistern for himself in his house."' The inscription, written in the Semitic language used for writing at the time by the Jews of Israel, confirms that the word for house was then written simply b_t, without the the insertion of y and was the same word as daughter. This is also true of the way it was written in the Phoenician language. When 'house' and 'daughter' were written identically there was no cause to differentiate between them. The situation changed when development of the Hebrew language made it possible to alter the spelling slightly to give two different words. the scribes then found themselves in a dilemma, based on the ignorance of the fact that 'house' had the Egyptian meaning 'wife'. It now becomes clear what has happened. If the word simply meant 'house' or 'household', it made sense that Joseph approached the house of Pharaoh on the subject of his father's funeral and that his weeping could be heard in the king's house, but it made no sense at all to suggest that the whole of the king's household had come 'down to wash herself at the river' (Exodus, 2:5) or had become the mother to the child. The scribe therefore decided in the Exodus reference to retain the alternative meaning of 'daughter' whereas it, too, should have been changed to 'house', signifying the wife of Pharaoh, his queen. Oh,and by the way, Starjade, it almost impossible that the 'Egyptian' queen would give her adopted son, a name derived from a Hebrew root, even if she had been sure that he is a Hebrew child.( drawn out of water means moshe i.e mose in Hebrew). "Mose" in ancient Egyptian language means "son" and the name formula god+mose was common e.g Amen mose = Amen + Mose= son of Amun Thut mose = Thut + Mose = son of Thut Ramose= Ra + Mose =son of Re They did not give a "real name" for the child whom they drew out of the water, they just called him 'the son" i.e "Mose". Main References: The writings of Ahmed Osman and Professor James Henry Breasted
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Starjade
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Eeeeeek
Gosh so you are still alive Dr. Deen. Now hasnt my
patience been astonishing. I have waited
almost a whole year for you to reply
The Living God of Abraham and of Moses and of Starjade only promised
to raise up one Prophet not two. So why then would Muhammad make
such a mistake that has led to 11 Chapters of the Koran being in error.
So when are you coming up with an explanation for that then. I
have been waiting. All Muslims go silent when those facts get pointed out and the fact that Jesus is easily proven to be a fraud does not account for the fact also that Muhammad believed in Jesus when he should not.
Well now I have not yet had the opertunity to read you reply as my conversations
have been taxed these past few days. But you know I always catch
up. I shall look at what you have said before I comment.
You know what I say will be bound to be good. |
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Starjade
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Dr. Deen you said: Well...well...starjade...you just couldn't wait for me to show up...couldn't you..huh? well...i am not used to give excuses and i'll definitely not give them to you... Starjade says: Yep my patience has been most astonishing and you already made up excuses but as I pointed out they are not good enough. You just could not handle the wondering what I was doing since I left Liberty Unites. So you did some stalking by not talking. :) Dr. Den you said: Starjade...you said that there was a contradiction between the Koran and the Old Testament between who adopted Moses...well read this... Starjade says: Yep I did say that as the Koran claims that it was the wife of the Pharaoh when the Old Testament said it was the daughter. The Old Testament being the source of data then it was odd that the Koran came out with a different claim. And I did research this matter to see one way or the other and it is a fact that when Moses was adopted it was the Daughter of the Pharaoh who adopted Moses and she was not married at that Time hence the Koran is in error. (Even though the father of Nefure Hatshepsut was only a co regent. He was still titled as a Pharaoh. ) Dr. Deen you said: In your quote: Philological Explanation The word for 'daughter' and the word for 'house' were written identically b_t in early Hebrew and open to misconstruction by anyone not familiar with the Egyptian usage. To an Egyptian the word 'house' was also used -and indeed, still is- to signify a wife: to a Hebrew it meant either 'house' in the sense of a building or 'household'. Starjade says: Mmm interesting except the Koran is supposed to be writ in Arabic and from the word of Muhammad and the (cough) fabricated Angel Gabriel not from Hebrew scriptures. I see a big difference between house and wife and daughter. The statements were about who adopted Moses which was the daughter of the Pharaoh not the house of the Pharaoh. And Muslims argue the Old Testament is not valid in their eyes yet you imply they took words direct from Hebrew scriptures. So then this does not give an account of who adopted Moses. As that was a female not a building. Dr. Deen you said: Later, both Hebrew and the language of Ancient Egypt, which had no written vowels, began to use some consonants like y to indicate long vowels. Thus,for example, we find a slightly different spelling for b_t Phar'a in the Book of Genesis account of events when Jacob, the father of Joseph, died. Joseph, who wanted permission to take him back to Canaan for burial, did not speak to the king directly but to the b_y_t Phar'a , the Hebrew word signifying 'the house of Pharaoh': Starjade says: Yes I see your point. Those Egyptians had some most weird ways of doing things. However the Koran does say wife as in a married female who was married to the Pharaoh. Joseph was a pal of the Pharaoh and could speak with the Pharaoh directly. Even when Joseph spoke to the house of the Pharaoh then the Pharaoh and all his aids would have also been present. Old Testament Genesis. Genesis 50:4 And when the days of his mourning were past, Joseph spake unto the house of Pharaoh, saying, If now I have found grace in your eyes, speak, I pray you, in the ears of Pharaoh, saying, Genesis 50:5 My father made me swear, saying, Lo, I die: in my grave which I have digged for me in the land of Canaan, there shalt thou bury me. Now therefore let me go up, I pray thee, and bury my father, and I will come again. Genesis 50:6 And Pharaoh said, Go up, and bury thy father, according as he made thee swear. Genesis 50:7 And Joseph went up to bury his father: and with him went up all the servants of Pharaoh, the elders of his house, and all the elders of the land of Egypt, Starjade says; So even in the house of the Pharaoh to which Joseph spoke the Pharaoh as Their King was present for the King was their Pharaoh even whiles Joseph spoke to the entire house of the Pharaoh. The matter in the Koran of who adopted Moses the wife of the Pharaoh or the daughter. It was with clear reference to a female married to a Pharaoh in the Koran and to a female who was the daughter of the Pharaoh in the Old Testament. Egyptian history backs the Old Testament and the Koran is in error. Nefure Hatshepsut was not married at the Time she adopted Moses. She only became married after Moses killed an Egyptian which carried the death penalty and Moses fled Egypt. To digress if I may. I have read the entire Exodus version in the Koran and the Old Testament and be sure I have spotted error after error in the Koran that are of accounts of things said to be happening in those Times which did not and cannot be explained away by simple errors of words. Our conversations were cut short before we could indulge in those other Exodus conversations. Dr. Deen you said: 'And when the days of his mourning were past, Joseph spake unto the house of Pharaoh, saying, if now I have found grace in your eyes, speak I pray you, in the ears of Pharaoh...' (Genesis 50:4). 'Pharaoh' itself means 'the great house'. Thus b_y_t Phar'a signifies the 'house of the great house', which in the Egyptian sense would mean the queen whose intercession he sought in the matter of his father's burial. Old Testament Genesis. Genesis 50:4 And when the days of his mourning were past, Joseph spake unto the house of Pharaoh, saying, If now I have found grace in your eyes, speak, I pray you, in the ears of Pharaoh, saying, Genesis 50:6 And Pharaoh said, Go up, and bury thy father, according as he made thee swear. Starjade says: Clearly the Pharaoh was present and so as King the conversations would be directed to him in front of his council. These matters however are not pertaining to the adoption of Moses. I do however grasp the point you are trying to make but the matter is not an explanation to this error in the Koran where it claims the woman who adopted Moses was the wife of the Pharaoh. Dr. Deen you said: There is an example of similar usage earlier in the Book of Genesis when the brothers who had earlier sold Joseph into slavery made their second trip to Egypt at a time of famine. On this occasion Joseph revealed his true identity and was so moved that he 'wept aloud: and the Egyptians and the house of Pharaoh heard' (Genesis 45:2). This had been construed as meaning that Joseph's weeping was so loud that it was audible in the royal palace, but I interpret it as meaning that the queen heard the news of his brother's arrival. Starjade says: Genesis 45:2 And he wept aloud: and the Egyptians and the house of Pharaoh heard. Starjade says: Your interpretations are not justified as clearly it means that the household heard not just any one person. The matter in the Koran said the wife of the Pharaoh adopted Moses. A female married to the Pharaoh. Yet this is not true. The woman who adopted Moses was Nefure Hatshepsut and she was the daughter of the co regent Pharaoh also even as a Co regent called pharaoh. They were not in the house of the Ruling King Pharaoh. Nefure only became married in later life after Moses fled Egypt. Dr. Deen you said: In this second example the word used is again b_y_t Phar'a. However, in the Book of Exodus, where we have the story of the Pharaoh's daughter going down to bathe, finding the Hebrew child in the rushes and later adopting him, the y is absent and we have simply b_t Phar'a. My suspicion was that during the ninth century BC, the early stages of written Hebrew when the Old Testament was given permanent form, all three words had been written in this way, referring in each instance to the 'house of Pharaoh', the reigning queen and the y in the two Genesis references had been added late, as written Hebrew developed, because the scribe did not understand the special Egyptian usage of the word 'house'. This, while not easy to establish, proved to be the case. Starjade says: The Exodus in the Old Testament was written by Moses and those who lived in those Times and Moses was educated to a high degree in the Egyptian language and he would know who his adopted Mother was. The Koran written supposedly in Arabic made the error The Koran claimed its words came from The (cough) Angel Gabriel and Muhammad. So that error was theirs. Egyptian history proves that also. And Gabriel originated in a dream that Daniel had whiles in a deep sleep. Deuteronomy law and many more errors that exist in the Koran already show Muhammad was presumptuous to think he could speak in Gods name so the authenticity of the Koran has been shown to not come from God. Yet the Old Testament did come from those people who lived in those Times. You are attempting to show some error in the statements of the Old testament and yet the very same Egyptian history that shows it was Nefure Hatshepsut the daughter of the Pharaoh who adopted Moses authenticates the Old testaments statements. So then we are left with just your word there was some error in translations. But the only errors came from the Koran. Dr. Deen you said: The Hebrew Masoretic text we have now goes back only to around the tenth century AD and could not throw any light on the matter. Nor could sections of the Old Testament found in the caves of Qumran, near the Dead Sea, some of which belong to the second century BC. Starjade says: I looked upon the decipherments of the Dead sea scrolls with interest. I have a copy of JM Allegros Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. However JM Allegro does not have my insight. Those scrolls contain New Testament text. So they are not Jewish nor of the original Old Testament and any carbon dating would only show around 2000 years ago. To this day the Jews argue that the New Testament is not true and Jesus is a fraud and as can be seen these facts are established by the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15. The fact it speaks of the Christians fabricated text outright shows those dead sea scrolls are copies of the Old Testament with added Roman Christian text. Egyptian history is more clearer even though that also was complicated and many had different views. The fact still remains that at the Time Moses was adopted the woman who adopted him was Nefure and she was the daughter of the Pharaoh not his wife. The co regent Pharaoh was her father. Dr. Deen you said: Confirmation was eventually provided by the Moabite Stone. This black basalt inscribed stone was left by Mesha, King of Moab, at Dhiban (biblical Dibon, to the east of the Dead Sea) to commemorate his revolt against Israel and his subsequent rebuilding of many towns ( II Kings, 3:4-5). This stone was found by the Revd F.Klein, a German missionary working with the Church Missionary Society, on 19 August 1868 and is now in the Louvre in Paris. The inscription refers to the triumph of ' Mesha, ben Chemosh, King Of Moab', whose father reigned over Moab for thirty years. he tells how he (Mesha) threw off the yoke of Israel and honoured his god, Chemosh. Starjade says: Well did this stone speak of Moses and who adopted him ? Clearly if the King of Moab had been attacking Israel then his words can hardly be accepted as absolute truths when he was clearly bios and hating the descendants of Israel. And I would not trust anything left in the hands of a Christian church for so long. It would not surprise me if they did a bit of chiselling on their own. Dr. Deen you said: According to the American archaeologist James B.Pritchard, a professor at t6he University of Pennsylvania; ' The date of the Mesha Stone is fixed roughly by the referenece to Mesha, King of Moab, in II Kings 3:4-5, after 849 BC. However, since the contents of the stela point to a date toward the end of the king's regin, it seems probable that it should be placed between 840 and 820, perhaps about 830 BC in round numbers'. The text reads: 'I [am] Mesha, son of Chemosh...King of Moab... I said to all the people:" Let each of you make a cistern for himself in his house."' Starjade says: So it does not say Moses was adopted by wife or daughter but speaks of other things.? Dr. Deen you said: The inscription, written in the Semitic language used for writing at the time by the Jews of Israel, confirms that the word for house was then written simply b_t, without the the insertion of y and was the same word as daughter. This is also true of the way it was written in the Phoenician language. Starjade says: The Old Testament speaks of a female daughter and the Koran speaks of a female wife. Neither are speaking of a house or household. The daughter of the Pharaoh asked her father to make Moses his heir apparent so they are not speaking of any building or any council but of a person no matter what spelling is underway. You are the only one making that claim to explain why there is this error of who adopted Moses in the Koran. The Old Testament is the source of that data. And Muslims brag the Koran is perfect and as if pure Arabic. It is clear in the Old Testament and the Koran that we are speaking of a person who adopted Moses. Not a house or household. The Old Testament and the Koran are already most clear on those issues. Dr. Deen you said: When 'house' and 'daughter' were written identically there was no cause to differentiate between them. The situation changed when development of the Hebrew language made it possible to alter the spelling slightly to give two different words. Starjade says: House and daughter and wife are all different things. The words you debate do not become what you claim when the story is read. That is what makes that differential. The story speaks of a female adopting Moses. The Koran says wife of the Pharaoh the Old Testament states it was the daughter and Egyptian history also states it was the daughter. The Koran is then still in error. And we are here speaking of just this error. You know as well as I do Dr. Deen that I have entire lists of other errors that exist in the Koran as you have seen them displayed on other forums. Over 500 errors exist in the Koran. The Sura 4:82 Challenge states if just one error exists in the Koran then that is the proof that the Koran did not come from God and is presumptuous to think it could speak in Gods name. Dr. deen you said: the scribes then found themselves in a dilemma, based on the ignorance of the fact that 'house' had the Egyptian meaning 'wife'. It now becomes clear what has happened. If the word simply meant 'house' or 'household', it made sense that Joseph approached the house of Pharaoh on the subject of his father's funeral and that his weeping could be heard in the king's house, Starjade says; Clearly had you read on then you would have seen that the pharaoh was present when Joseph came to the Pharaohs house. Genesis 50:6 And Pharaoh said, Go up, and bury thy father, according as he made thee swear. Dr. deen you said: but it made no sense at all to suggest that the whole of the king's household had come 'down to wash herself at the river' (Exodus, 2:5) or had become the mother to the child. Exodus 2:5 And the daughter of Pharaoh came down to wash herself at the river; and her maidens walked along by the river's side; and when she saw the ark among the flags, she sent her maid to fetch it. Exodus 2:6 And when she had opened it, she saw the child: and, behold, the babe wept. And she had compassion on him, and said, This is one of the Hebrews' children. Exodus 2:7 Then said his sister to Pharaoh's daughter, Shall I go and call to thee a nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the child for thee? Exodus 2:8 And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Go. And the maid went and called the child's mother. Exodus 2:9 And Pharaoh's daughter said unto her, Take this child away, and nurse it for me, and I will give thee thy wages. And the woman took the child, and nursed it. Exodus 2:10 And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water. Starjade says: Clearly you just made the very point I had already made. That is what makes that differential. The story speaks of a female adopting Moses. Not a house or household. Hence whatever way the word is spelt the story would show what was meant. Dr. Deen you said: The scribe therefore decided in the Exodus reference to retain the alternative meaning of 'daughter' whereas it, too, should have been changed to 'house', signifying the wife of Pharaoh, his queen. Starjade says: Actually you again are in error because Nefure Hatshepsut was not married to any Pharaoh when she adopted Moses and only became married when Moses fled Egypt after he killed the Egyptian. He was an adult then. Nefure Hatshepsuts father Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep 1 at that Time was only the co regent to the ruling Pharaoh Ahmosis who lived in Thebes in Memphis. The Pharaoh Ahmosis was the main ruler of Egypt and so Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep 1. would only be the main ruling Pharaoh after the death of the Pharaoh Ahmosis. When Moses was adopted Pharaoh Ahmosis was very much alive. The Koran is still in error yet nice try. :) Dr. deen you said: Oh,and by the way, Starjade, it almost impossible that the 'Egyptian' queen would give her adopted son, a name derived from a Hebrew root, even if she had been sure that he is a Hebrew child. Starjade says: Too bad for your argument that Nefure Hatshepsut was not an Egyptian queen until after Moses had fled Egypt eh. Any woman can name her child whatever she wanted. Who would argue with the co regent Pharaoh�s daughter? And Nefures father was Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep. So your argument is a rather tame. I can see Moses in her fathers name. Dr. Deen you said; ( drawn out of water means moshe i.e mose in Hebrew). "Mose" in ancient Egyptian language means "son" and the name formula god+mose was common e.g Amen mose = Amen + Mose= son of Amun Thut mose = Thut + Mose = son of Thut Ramose= Ra + Mose =son of Re They did not give a "real name" for the child whom they drew out of the water, they just called him 'the son" i.e "Mose". Starjade says: Then we agree the Jews got fanciful. It did seem clear that Moses was named after his grandfather the father of Nefure Hatshepsut who adopted Moses who was Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep. Of course drawn out of water seems valid also but who cares eh. What mattered was who adopted Moses and it certainly was the daughter of the co regent Pharaoh Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep. Who would only become a main ruling Pharoah after the Pharaoh Ahmosis died. Which would not happen for a few years to come. Starjade concludes. See what I mean Dr. Deen. The error still exists in the Koran. It is only a small error of course in some ways but big error in other ways. The brag of Islam is that there are no errors in the Koran. Yet you have seen me give out lists of errors and discrepancies that exist in the Koran. So the Koran Sura 4:82 states it for me. Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein? You know for a fact we only speak of one error here and yet I have hundreds more to show. The Allah mentioned of course meaning supreme God. Is there a Muslim here who doubts me when I say that the Living God of Moses is that Supreme God. Well then Dr. Deen give up your worships of Hubal al�ilah and covert to giving worship to the living God of Moses and remember what the Islamic law that I have invoked states. For you must reject what is found to not be true. Now I just bet you are glad you re appeared for once again you got a really good read. Where else would you get such conversations like this eh.? Except from the much loved Deuteronomy Doomsday prophet Starjade. You will all miss me when I am dead and gone. Legends are born from men like me. I can hear you all saying who was that masked man. And some will say �Phew� that was the much loved Deuteronomy Doomsday Prophet Starjade. :) Now don�t go disappearing again now will you. It seems you are the only Muslim here prepared to defend Islam. The usual sound of silence has fallen upon the others. :)
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| illbewhatillbe Senior Member Joined: 10 March 2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Religion: Hinduism(Hinduism) Posts: 337 |
AN =post>There is a law in the religion of Islam that says if you know something that is not true then you must be unafraid and stand up and state it. The matter will then be discussed and whatever is found to be true will be accepted as being true this points to the weakness of all totalitarian/absolutist systems. their founding documents have to be interpreted. by who. islam has no pope
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Doctor Deen
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starjade...starjade...starjade... you'll never understand a post when you go digesting it the way you do...that silly habit you've repeated time and time again since i first met you on LU... the idea of the post is understood when it is read as a whole and not the sentence-by-sentence method that you are applying...the first sentence is never wholly understood except in context with the last one... The Moabite Stone has nothing to do with who adopted Moses...I just mentioned it as a proof that 'house' was written b_t... Whether Joseph approached the Pharoah's house or his queen... Whether the weeping was heard by the whole house or by the queen... Both meanings are logical... BUT Whether Pharoah's daughter or the entire house or household was near the river... THAT MAKES NO SENSE... Therefore when the y was introduced to b_t to diffrentiate between 'house' and 'daughter'...the first two examples were changed but the third was not changed thinking that it was the daughter but it wasn't...it was the Egyptian usage of the word 'house'...i.e the queen That's the cause of this contradiction to occur...The Pharoah's queen adopted Moses... By the way, don't get Hatchepsut involved here...coz i can give you pages of proof the Moses was Akhenaten and Miriam was Nefertiti and i can give you pages of proof the Joseph was Akhenaten and i can give you pages of proof that Moses was a vizier of Akhenaten.... We are here to discuss your claims about these "contradictions" you say exist in the Quran....where is Moses in egyptology is a different issues and is built upon theories and assumptions... your hundreds of claims...can we say that they are now down by one???
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Starjade
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Illbewhatillbe said: There is a law in the religion of Islam that says if you know something that is not true then you must be unafraid and stand up and state it. The matter will then be discussed and whatever is found to be true will be accepted as being true Illbewhatillbe said: this points to the weakness of all totalitarian/absolutist systems. their founding documents have to be interpreted. by who. islam has no pope Starjade says: Well the Blasphemy of the pope is only a Roman Catholic thingy as they once again use man as a religious icon. I could tell you things about the past dead Pope that show they are not as religious as they claimed. Anyhow
Muslims must surely have a religious leader or leaders don�t they.?
They may not have a Caliph but surely there is someone in charge.
If not then let the people Judge as God is my Judge then let God be
the Judge. And that shall be the law.
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LionKing
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Muslims need to immediately appoint leaders to represent the Muslims. However this body of leaders will not enforce opinions, because in Islam, there are many equally valid opinions, Islam is to some extent flexible, there are many things which are not absolute for a reason, because not everyone is in absolutely the same situation. There is very very rarely a situation where you cannot do an alternative.
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You see Katatonic bliss you bring out the word in me. 
yes everyone wants to shoot the messenger 
There would be a great deal of Shrieking and he would be carted off
to Jail. 
This matter of Muhammad 