Starjade  

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Rachel you said:  I know, I just don't like guys addressing me with their 'pecker' issues, the pervert.  I think it is extremely disrespectful, and as a Muslim woman on a Muslim forum, I expect my Muslim Moderator Brothers to stand up and say something to this guy for disrespecting ALL the sisters here.

Starjade says:  As a Muslim women you still have not learned to keep your gob shut.  Where is the big stick.  (no hidden pun intended.)  Hey Rachel you were the one who brought sexual things into question.  Its not my fault if you have no sense of humour.  Go suck on a lemon it might make you sweeter. 
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Starjade  

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Starjade says:  Doh Oh No not the ikkle ole elderly white haired lady who draws her pension and prays on her kness to the ikkle baby Jesus.   

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The End of Times Doomsday Prophet
The Lord King and King of Kings. Starjade
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Pssst. Rachel will it make you feel better if I give you another psichic reading. 

__________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet
The Lord King and King of Kings. Starjade
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Starjade  

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Starjade says:  Gasp. Do tell all.

It's a good thing for them that I am a very forgiving old girl, also that I heard bad stuff they never dreamed up during a long career among adolescents--why if they knew some of the things I've seen written on desks and scribbled in textbooks--well, let's just say they've not seen it all, nor did they invent it.

Starjade says:  Ah come on don�t laugh at poor ole Rachel shes feeling so fragile at this time.

Starjade says:  yeah but is it as big as mine.

__________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet
The Lord King and King of Kings. Starjade
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Starjade  

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Well I hope you like my quotes from the Koran.  It begins with Sura 4:92. AND ENDS With Starjades God given Revelations.

__________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet
The Lord King and King of Kings. Starjade
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

You're a pervert.  I do not engage in conversations with perverts. 

iris89  

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Hi Bill 2702 and everyone else

FIRST, Bill 2702 said,

I, for one, would expect everyone to change once proven wrong.   I was brought up in a mixed household, partly Roman Catholic, partly Muslim (Sunni), and am a direct descendent of Caliph Saladin and General Traig ibn Zazid, but saw the errors of both Roman Catholism and Muslim (Sunni) faiths and got out of both.   Why?   Because it was clear to me both were in extreme error, and one should NOT hold on to error.

SECOND, I feel that many, including many Christians, are actually ignorant of the two paths of Christianity, the correct and the gross error such as Roman Catholism.   Now here are the facts in brief:

THIRD, It is about time that all start examining their own religion with an open mind instead of with 'mental blinders.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

loommmool  

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 looooooooooooooooool

(Hubal)

(la allah illa allah)

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool.. u all the same.. u don't know.. but yet u talk

Edited by loommmool - 06 March 2006 at 10:55am

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sorry for my bad English.

iris89  

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Hi whirlingEcstasy

You say the original text of the Bible is long gone just as it is with most other ancient books including the Quran, but there are many existent copies that can be checked against each other to ensure accuracy. Whereas with the Bible distorted knockoff, the Quran, this is NOT necessarily so. Let�s look at the facts on the Quran.

Many Variant Readings of the Quran:

Muslims attack the Bible on the grounds that it sometimes has conflicting wording from different manuscripts. Yet this is exactly the case with the text of the Quran. There are many conflicting readings on the text of the Quran as Arthur Jeffery has demonstrated in his book, Material for the History of the Text of the Quran [source - New York, Russell F. Moore, 1952].

At one point Jeffery gives 90 pages of variant readings on the text. For example, in Sura 2 there are over 140 conflicting and variant readings on the text of the Quran. [source - New York, Russell F. Moore, 1952]

All Western and Muslim scholars admit the presence of variant readings in the text of the Quran [sources - Dashti, 23 Years, p. 28; Mandudi, Meaning of the Quran, pp. 17-18; McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia, V152].

Guillaume points out that the Quran at first "had a large number of variants, not always trifling in significance" [Islam: Muhammad, and His Religion, New York: The Liberal Arts Press, 1958, p. 189].

"It is interesting to note that in scholarly Muslim journals, there is beginning to be a grudging acknowledgment of the fact that there are variant and conflicting readings on the text of the Quran" [source - Saleh al-Wahaihu, "A Study of Seven Quranic Variants," International Journal of Islamic and Arabic Studies, Vol. V (1989), #2, pp. 1-57].

Some Verses Missing

According to Professor Guillaume in his book, Islam, (pp. 191ff.), some of the original verses of the Quran were lost.

For example, one Sura originally had 200 verses in the days of Ayesha. But by the time Uthman standardized the text of the Quran, it had only 73 verses! A total of 127 verses had been lost, and they have never been recovered. [source - Saleh al-Wahaihu, "A Study of Seven Quranic Variants," International Journal of Islamic and Arabic Studies, Vol. V (1989), #2,].

The Shiite Muslims claim that Uthman left out 25 percent of the original verses in the Quran for political reasons [McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia, V:152].

That there are verses which got left out of Uthman's version of the Quran is universally recognized [Shorter Encyclopedia off Islam, pp. 278-282; Guillaume, Islam, p. 191; Wherry, A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran, pp. 110-111].

John Burton's book, The Collection of the Quran, which was published by Cambridge University, documents how such verses were lost [London University Press, 1977, pp. 117ff. See also Arthur Jeffery, Islam: Muhammad and His Religion, New York; Liberal Arts Press, 1958, pp. 66-68].

Burton states concerning the Muslim claim that the Quran is perfect:

"The Muslin accounts of the history of the Quran texts are a mass of confusion, contradiction and inconsistencies" [Burton, Collection, p. 231].

Changes in the Quran

One interesting way that some off the original verses of the Quran were lost is that a follower of Muhammad named Abdollah Sarh would make suggestions to Muhammad about rephrasing, adding to, or subtracting from the Suras. Muhammad often did as Sarh suggested.

Ali Dashti explains what happened:

"Abdollah renounced Islam on the ground that the revelations, if from God, could not be changed at the prompting of a scribe such as he. After his apostasy he went to Mecca and joined the Qoray****es" [Dashti, 23 Years, p. 98].

It is no wonder that when Muhammad conquered Mecca one of the first people he killed was Abdollah, for he knew too much and opened his mouth too often.

Some Verses Abrogated

In the abrogation process spoken of earlier, verses which are contradictory to Muslim faith and practice have been removed from the text, such as the "satanic verses" in which Muhammad approved of the worship of the three goddesses, the daughters of Allah.[source - The Islamic Invasion by Dr. Robert Morey; Harvest Home Publishers, 1992. ISBN 0-89081-983-1]

The Arabic scholar E. Wherry comments:

"There being some passages in the Quran which are contradictory, the Muhammadan doctors obviate any objection from thence by the doctrine of abrogation; for they say that God in the Quran commanded several things which were for good reasons afterwards revoked and abrogated" [source - A Comprehensive Commentary on the Qurun, p. 110].

Wherry goes on to document numerous examples of verses taken out of the Quran.

Canon Sell in his work, Historical Development of the Quran, also comments on the practice of abrogating verses out of the Quran if they are troublesome:

"It is to us astounding how so compromising a procedure can have been permitted to be introduced into the system by friends and foes [source - Madras: Diocesan Press, 1923, pp. 36-37].

Some Verses Added

Not only have parts of the Quran been lost, but entire verses and chapters have been added to it.

For example, Ubai had several Suras in his manuscript of the Quran which Uthman omitted from his standardized text.

Thus there were Qurans in circulation before Uthman's text which had additional revelations from Muhammad that Uthman did not find or approve of, and thus he failed to place them in his text. [source - The Islamic Invasion" by Dr. Robert Morey; Harvest Home Publishers, 1992. ISBN 0-89081-983-1]

No Originals

As to the claim that the original manuscript of the Quran is still in existence, we have already pointed out there was no single "manuscript" of the Quran.

Caesar Farah in his book on Islam, states:

"When Muhammad died there existed no singular codex of the sacred text" [Caesar Farah, Islam: Beliefs and Observations, New York; Barrons, 1987, p. 28].

The Shorter Encyclopedia of Islam comments:

"One thing only is certain and is openly recognized by tradition, namely, that there was not in existence any collection of revelations in the final form, because, as long as he was alive, new revelations were being added to the earlier ones" [source � The Shorter Encyclopedia of Islam, p. 271].

Some of the pre-Islamic Sources for material in the Quran

Arabian Sources

The Quran repeats fanciful Arabian fables as if they were true.

"Arabic legends about the fabulous jinns fill its pages" [source - G.G. Pfander, Balance of Truth, pp. 283].

"The story of the she-camel who leapt out of a rock and became a prophet was known long before Muhammad" (Suras 7:73-77,85; 91:14; 54:29).

The story of an entire village of people who were turned into apes because they broke the sabbath by fishing was a popular legend in Muhammad's day (Suras 2:65; 7:163-166).

The gushing 12 springs story found in Sura 2:60 comes from pre-Islamic legends.

In what is called the "Rip Van Winkle" story, seven men and their animals slept for 309 years in a cave and then woke up perfectly fine (Sura 18:9-26)!

The fable of the pieces of four dead, cut-up birds getting up and flying was well known in Muhammad's time (Sura 2:260).

It is also clear that Muhammad used such pre-Islamic literature as the Saba Moallaqat of Imra'ul Cays in his composition of Suras 21:96; 29:31,46; 37:59; 54:1, and 93:1.

Jewish Sources

Many of the stories in the Quran come from the Jewish Talmud, the Midrash, and many apocryphal works.

This was pointed out by Abraham Geiger in 1833, and further documented by another Jewish scholar, Dr. Abraham Katsh, of New York University, in 1954 (The Concise Dictionary of Islam, p. 229; Jomier, The Bible and the Quran -- Henry Regency Co., Chicago, 1959, 59ff; Sell, Studies, pp. 163ff.; Guillaume, Islam, p. 13).

So the Quran is nothing but a distorted Bible knockoff with a �fruit cocktail� of legend thrown in for good measure. This is unlike the Bible which is truly the true word of God (YHWH) off Abraham.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

__________________
Francis David said it long ago, "Neither the sword of popes...nor the image of death will halt the march of truth."Francis David, 1579, written on the wall of his prison cell."

iris89  

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Hi loommmool

Some may not know, but I know. I was brought up in a mixed household, partly Roman Catholic, partly Muslim (Sunni), and am a direct descendent of Caliph Saladin and General Traig ibn Zazid, but saw the errors of both Roman Catholism and Muslim (Sunni) faiths and got out of both. Why? Because it was clear to me both were in extreme error, and one should NOT hold on to error. You need to learn the facts, the truth, about the proper name "Allah," and I will NOW assist you.

Who Really Is 'Allah' The Supreme God Of The Makkans [Residents of Ancient Mecca]

INTRODUCTION AND HYPOTHESIS:

The Old Testament specifically denies the Muslim claim that the pre-Islamic Ishmaelites knew and worshiped the true God (YHWH) of Abraham. The data conclusively shows that as the timeline of the centuries unfolded the Ishmaelites forsook the God of their ancestors Abraham and Jacob, Yahweh or Jehovah (YHWH), for the worship of some false god. The false god whom they worshiped as the true God was quite possibly Baal. The data also shows that Hubal was the high god worshiped at Mecca, which is supportted by the view that he was the Allah of pre-Islamic times. He Allah or Hubal was the high god of the Makkans [residents of ancient Mecca]; although, they had many other gods and goddesses such as the daughter celestial goddesses of Allah who was the old middle eastern Moon god.

A great wall supposedly built by Dhul-Qarnayn literally meaning "He of the Two Horns", is a figure mentioned in the Qur'an, the sacred scripture of Islam, where he is described as a great and righteous ruler who built a long wall that keeps Gog and Magog from attacking the people of the West. Moreover, he is regarded by some Muslims as a prophet. The epithet was also familiar among the pre-Islamic Arabs [pagans per the prophet], who applied it to at least three different kings. Now this may seem strange to mention in the introduction, but is important as it clearly shows that Muhammad adopted pagan myths into the Quran as well as using Bible accounts as its framework. Accounts to prove he adopted this pagan myth are sound at the Cave chapter of the Quran at Sura 18:83-98 which will be dealt with shortly.

SURA 18:83-98 [CAVE CHAPTER OF THE QURAN] AND THE DHUL-QARNAYN:

[18.83] And they ask you about Zulqarnain. Say: I will recite to you an account of him.

[18.84] Surely We established him in the land and granted him means of access to every thing.

[18.85] So he followed a course.

[18.86] Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.

[18.87] He said: As to him who is injust, we will chastise him, then shall he be returned to his Lord, and He will chastise him with an exemplary chastisement: And as for him who believes and does good, he shall have goodly reward, and We will speak to him an easy word of Our command.

[18.89] Then he followed (another) course.

[18.90] Until when he reached the land of the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people to whom We had given no shelter from It;

[18.91] Even so! and We had a full knowledge of what he had.

[18.92] Then he followed (another) course.

[18.93] Until when he reached (a place) between the two mountains, he found on that side of them a people who could hardly understand a word.

[18.94] They said: O Zulqarnain! surely Gog and Magog make mischief in the land. Shall we then pay you a tribute on condition that you should raise a barrier between us and them

[18.95] He said: That in which my Lord has established me is better, therefore you only help me with workers, I will make a fortified barrier between you and them;

[18.96] Bring me blocks of iron; until when he had filled up the space between the two mountain sides, he said: Blow, until when he had made it (as) fire, he said: Bring me molten brass which I may pour over it.

[18.97] So they were not able to scale it nor could they make a hole in it.

[18.98] He said: This is a mercy from my Lord, but when the promise of my Lord comes to pass He will make it level with the ground, and the promise of my Lord is ever true.

[source - The Holy Qur'an, translated by M.H. Shakir and published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc., in 1983.]

Dhul-Qarnayn in the Qur'an.

Main article: Alexander in the Qur'an (Theory)

The story of Dhul-Qarnayn as described in the Qur'an follows very closely some passages of the Alexander Romance, a thoroughly embellished compilation of Alexander the Great's exploits from Hellenistic and early Christian sources which underwent numerous expansions and revisions throughout Antiquity and the Middle Ages. The Alexander Romance was enormously popular in the Hellenistic world, including Jewish communities, among which Alexander had practically gained the status of a folk hero[3]. Some adaptations containing all the elements of the Qur'anic account can be found in early Hellenistic documents, such as the Armenian recension of the Alexander Romance. Actually the main elements of the story (an iron gate constructed by Alexander blocking the passage of Scythian tribes; identification of said Scythians with Gog and Magog) can already be found in Josephus[4][5] and in Saint Jerome, although in fragmented occurrences (see Alexander in the Qur'an for details).

[1]For these reason the widely accepted view is that the (indirect) model for Dhul Qarnayn is Alexander the Great. The majority of medieval Muslim scholars were happy to identify Dhul-Qarnayn as Alexander. However, some Muslim scholars have asserted that the medieval scholars were mistaken and that Dhul-Qarnayn cannot be Alexander.

[2]Cyrus the Great as Dhul Qarnain

Main article: Cyrus the Great in the Qur'an (theory)

Some contemporary Muslim scholars, such as Maududi and Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, have suggested that Dhul-Qarnayn is Cyrus the Great. This theory has been endorsed by Iranian scholars Allameh Tabatabaei [in his Tafsir al-Mizan) and Grand Ayatollah Makarim al-Shirazi (Bargozideh Tafseer-i Nemuneh, Vol 3, p69].

[3]The archaic Dhul-Qarnayn

Some early Islamic commentators stipulated that Dhul-Qarnayn must have been a contemporary of Abraham. Others postulated an Alexander who lived 2000 years before Alexander the Great.

[4]The Arab Dhul-Qarnayn

Two early Arabian kings were known as Dhul-Qarnayn: the northern Arabian king Al-Mundhir al-Akbar ibn Ma' as-Sama' (so called for his two curled locks), and the early South Arabian king Tubba' al-Aqran. South Arabian interpreters of the Qur'an argue that the Qur'anic Dhul-Qarnayn was their king Tubba'. Other supporters of the Yemeni Dhul-Qarnayn theory included (the Persian) Biruni in his Athar al-baqiyah, Asma'i in his Tarikh al-Arab ("History of Arab"), and Sirah of Ibn Hisham, among others.

Others have suggested that Dhul-Qarnayn could be the Egyptian pharoah Narmer , who unified northern and southern Egypt. Among supporters of the Arab Dhul-Qarnayn theory were Mughrizi in his book al-Khutat, and Allama Sayyed Habeddin al-Shahrestani.

[5]The angelic Dhul-Qarnayn

There are scattered references in which Ali ibn Abi Talib gives the epithet Dhul-Qarnayn. Since Dhul-Qarnayn was a righteous ruler, this may simply be a way of praising by Ali. Mughrizi also quotes Mukhtar ibn Abi Ubayd as saying that Ali always referred to Dhul-Qarnayn as "an angel without wings". The 8th century scholar Al-Jahiz, in his (???????), also writes of Dhul-Qarnayn being born to a human mother and angelic father.[source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia]

Of course this is the same kind of story/legend as that where the Quran took the old middle eastern Moon god, 'Allah,' and tried to blend him, a puppet celestial god of Satan, into the true God (YHWH) of Abraham; to wit, from epithets that were familiar among the pre-Islamic Arabs. Let's look at some facts from history and archaeology on this fact.

It should not come as a surprise that the word "Allah" was not something invented by Muhammad or revealed for the first time in the Quran.

The well-known Middle East scholar H.A.R. Gibb has pointed out that the reason that Muhammad never had to explain who Allah was in the Quran is that his listeners had already heard about Allah long before Muhammad was ever born [source - Mohammedanism: An Historical Survey, New York: Mentor Books, 1955, p.38].

One Muslim I have corresponded with said the following:

<<"You did not see what point I have written in my last post, allow me to explain in a better way. Dhul-Qarnayn may have a meaning but in the Quran it is given as he is a sort of a king or a leader. If you understood what I have said, I have said that the"wall" of Dhul-Qarnayn. We are not talking about names and where it's origin is from, we are talking about the Quran being the truth. If you do not see this then go get more information as we all say; we never stop learning.

ALLAH AS THE SUPREME GOD OF THE ANCINET PAGAN MAKKANS (RESIDENTS OF MECCA):

This section opens with a statement by a learned Muslim testifying to the fact that Allah was the supreme god of the ancient pagan Makkans (Residents of Mecca).

<<"The thing you said that about the Makkans knowing about Allah before Muhammed(S.A.W) is true. From prophet Ibrahim and Ismail to (S.A.W), Allah was was brought as the true God. The Makkans knew that Allah was a god, but they said that He was the supreme god from all the others, they would say that He was beyond the universe so they needed other small gods to transmit their prayers to Him. The Makkans were not angry at Allah but if you have searched the facts and so, they despised Muhammed(S.A.W), because they said that he was spreading the menace and dishonoring their gods. They did not say anything about Allah(S.T), for He was their supreme god and dishonoring it would bring badness over them. So we see that the other prophets before Muhammed(S.A.W) brought the information that Allah was the only true God but then, like every prophet, they listened then betrayed the prophets for their ignorance and changed it like they did to the bible, but the true religion will never fall(Islam). The prophet Muhammed(S.A.W) which had enemies but with the truth in his hands he succeeded on giving all the world the truth to save them from the hell fire, but still a lot of people do not except this as their arrogance is blinding them. You see now that the truth was given to the world, each one of the nations, but they disobeyed it and got punished for it as they didn't pass the test. Prophet Muhammed(S.A.W) brought them(Makkans) a book, he told them to worship only one god, he didn't tell them of how this god looked like and so on. This was a test for them to beleive in the truth as the shaitan will make it look as it is not the truth and everyone knew it that beleiving in something that is in the open, simple, and very understandable and not seeing of how their god looks like would be a challange but would also be rewarded greatly in the here after. Islam is the truth as they(Makkans/disbeleivers) knew that life is a test than you(an educated person) should know better.[source - a Muslim of learning]">>

So now we have established the fact that Allah was the supreme god of the ancient Makkans. Let's look at some of the facts related to the ancient pagan Makkans and their supreme pagan god Allah.

First the basic premise of this writer is false; to wit,

<<"We are not talking about names and where it's origin is from, we are talking about the Quran being the truth. If you do not see this then go get more information as we all say; we never stop learning.">>

Second his admittance that with respect the old middle eastern Moon god, 'Allah,' actually being the supreme god of the none worshippers of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, the Makkans:

<<"The thing you said that about the Makkans knowing about Allah before Muhammed(S.A.W) is true. From prophet Ibrahim and Ismail to (S.A.W), Allah was was brought as the true God. The Makkans knew that Allah was a god, but they said that He was the supreme god from all the others, they would say that He was beyond the universe so they needed other small gods to transmit their prayers to Him.">>

Dr. Arthur Jeffery, one of the foremost Western Islamic scholars in modern times and professor of Islamic and Middle East Studies at Columbia University, notes:

<<"The name Allah, as the Quran itself is witness, was well known in pre-Islamic Arabia. Indeed, both it and its feminine form, Allat, are found not infrequently among the theophorous names in inscriptions from North Africa">> [Islam: Muhammad, and His Religion, New York: The Liberal Arts Press, 1958, p. 85].

The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, states, <<"The origin of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning "God" (or a "god"), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity">> [Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, I:326, Hastings].

The Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, states, <<"The name Allah goes back before Muhammad">> [source - Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, I:41, Anthony Mercatante, New York, The Facts on File, 1983].

And, <<"The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god." It is not a foreign word. It is not even the Syriac word for God. It is pure Arabic.">> [There is an interesting discussion of the origins of Allah, in "Arabic Lexicographical Miscellanies" by J. Blau in the Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. XVII, #2, 1972, pp. 173-190].

And, Neither is Allah a Hebrew or Greek word for God as found in the Bible. Allah is a purely Arabic term used in reference to an Arabian deity.

Hastings' Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics I:326, T & T Clark, states:

<<"Allah" is a proper name, applicable only to their [Arabs'] peculiar God.">>'

[source - Hastings' Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics I:326].

According to the Encyclopedia of Religion:

And, <<"Allah" is a pre-Islamic name . . . corresponding to the Babylonian Bel">> [source - Encyclopedia of Religion, I:117 Washington DC, Corpus Pub., 1979].

The Encyclopedia Britannica adds, <<"Allah is found . . . in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam">> [Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643].

The Encyclopedia of Islam is in agreement and say, <<"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshipped, after a fashion, a supreme god called Allah">> [Encyclopedia off Islam, I:302, Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1913, Houtsma].

This same encyclopedia went on to say, <<"Allah was known to the pre-Islamic . . . Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities">> [Encyclopedia off Islam, I:406, ed. Gibb].

And pre-Islamic poetry attest to this fact, <<"Ilah . . . appears in pre-Islamic poetry . . . By frequency of usage, al-ilah was contracted to Allah, frequently attested to in pre-Islamic poetry">> [Encyclopedia off Islam, III:1093, 1971].

And Dr. Kenneth Cragg, former editor of the very prestigious scholarly journal Muslim World and an outstanding modern Western Islamic scholar, whose works are generally published by Oxford University, comments:

<<"The name Allah is also evident in archeological and literary remains of pre-Islamic Arabia">> [The Call of the Minaret, New York: Oxford University Press, 1956, p. 31].

And the Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia on 02/28/2006), states, <<" Theories on the identity of Dhul-Qarnayn

See part 2 of reply to lommmool on 03/06/2006

__________________
Francis David said it long ago, "Neither the sword of popes...nor the image of death will halt the march of truth."Francis David, 1579, written on the wall of his prison cell."

iris89  

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Part 2 of reply to lommmoool on 03/06/2006

According to Tafsir Ibn Kathir, a widely used 14th-century commentary on the Qur'an:

"The Quraysh sent An-Nadr bin Al-Harith and `Uqbah bin Abi Mu`it to the Jewish rabbis in Al-Madinah, and told them: `Ask them (the rabbis) about Muhammad, and describe him to them, and tell them what he is saying. They are the people of the first Book, and they have more knowledge of the Prophets than we do.' So they set out and when they reached Al-Madinah, they asked the Jewish rabbis about the Messenger of Allah. They described him to them and told them some of what he had said. They said, `You are the people of the Tawrah and we have come to you so that you can tell us about this companion of ours.' They (the rabbis) said, `Ask him about three things which we will tell you to ask, and if he answers them then he is a Prophet who has been sent (by Allah); if he does not, then he is saying things that are not true, in which case how you will deal with him will be up to you. Ask him about some young men in ancient times, what was their story For theirs is a strange and wondrous tale. Ask him about a man who travelled a great deal and reached the east and the west of the earth. What was his story And ask him about the Ruh (soul or spirit) -- what is it If he tells you about these things, then he is a Prophet, so follow him, but if he does not tell you, then he is a man who is making things up, so deal with him as you see fit.[1]

According to Maududi's conservative 20th-century commentary:

"This Surah was sent down in answer to the three questions which the mushriks of Makkah, in consultation with the people of the Book, had put to the Holy Prophet in order to test him. These were: (1) Who were "the Sleepers of the Cave"? (2) What is the real story of Khidr? and (3) What do you know about Zul-Qarnain? As these three questions and the stories involved concerned the history of the Christians and the Jews, and were unknown in Hijaz, a choice of these was made to test whether the Holy Prophet possessed any source of the knowledge of the hidden and unseen things. Allah, however, not only gave a complete answer to their questions but also employed the three stories to the disadvantage of the opponents of Islam in the conflict that was going on at that time at Makkah between Islam and un-belief.">> [source - the Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia on 02/28/2006]

ACCEPTANCE BY MUHAMMAD OF THE MAKKAH'S SUPREME GOD DID NOT MEAN PEACE WITH THE MAKKAH.

Let's consider the Attack by the Makkans against Muhammad by an impeccable Muslim source.

"The Prophet, after arriving in Madinah, first formed an alliance with the Jews. Next, he approached all the nearby tribes and tried to persuade them to make an alliance or at least enter into a no-war pact. Many did. Thus the small group evicted from Makkah assumed strategic importance.

The Makkans who had earlier planned to kill the Prophet, were now determined to annihilate this nascent community of Islam. Having failed in all other ways they decided on a military solution...

As soon as the Hudaybiyah Treaty was signed, the Prophet sent letters to various neighbouring Arab and non-Arab rulers, including Chosroes of Iran and Heraclitus of the Byzantine Empire. He invited them to Islam, and assured them that he did not covet their kingdoms or riches. They could retain both, but only if they surrendered themselves to serve and worship the One God.

The Quraysh, however, soon broke the Treaty of Hudaybiyah. It was, thus, time to deal with their continuing hostility. The Prophet marched to Makkah, and captured the town. The fall of Makkah witnessed unparalleled acts of mercy forgiveness and generosity. Not a single drop of blood was shed. Everybody who remained indoors was granted security of life and property. The Prophet forgave all who had been his bitterest foes all his life, who had persecuted him and planned to kill him, who had driven him out of Makkah, and who had marched thrice to Madinah to defeat the Muslims.

[source - The Secretary General Mansura, Multan Road, Lahore, Pakistan. Ph: 92-42-7844605-9 Fax: 92-42-5419504]

Also, <<"It had become impossible for the Prophet (peace be upon him) to preach and for the ummah to live securely in Makkah.">> [source - Ministry of Hajj Kingdom of Asudi Arabia]

And, <<"Tawheed al-'Ebaadah (Maintaining The Unity of Worship)

In spite of the wide implications of the first two categories of Tawheed, firm belief in them alone is not sufficient to fulfill the Islamic requirements of Tawheed. Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah and Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat must be accompanied by their complement, Tawheed al-'Ebaadah, in order for Tawheed to be considered complete according to Islaam. This point is substantiated by the fact that Allaah Himself has related in clear terms that the Mushrikoon (idolators) of the Prophet's time confirmed many aspects of the first two forms of Tawheed. In the Qur'aan Allaah tells the Prophet (saws) to say to the pagans:

"Say: 'Who is it that gives you all sustenance from the sky and earth, governs sight and hearing, brings forth life from dead (matter) and death from the living, and plans the affairs of man?' They will all say 'Allaah'."35

"If you asked them who created them, they would surely say, 'Allaah' "36

"If you asked them who brings down water from the sky and with it brings the earth to life after its death? They will most certainly say, 'Allaah'."37

The pagan Makkans all knew that Allaah was their creator, sustainer, their Lord and Master yet that knowledge did not make them Muslims according to God. In fact,">>[source - USC - MSA Compendium of Muslim Text]

WHAT GOD REALLY IS THE MOON GOD ALLAH?

Let's look at the facts from renown historical writings:

"Namely that "Allah" is synonymous with the god Hubal of the pagan Makkans! ... Generally, objects of worship belonged to three genres: metal and wooden" [source - Bismika Alllahuma � Hubal In The Worship of Pre-Islamic Arab ].

And, "At the time of Muhammad, the Ka'abah was OFFICIALLY DEDICATED to the god Hubal, a deity who had been imported into Arabia from the Nabateans in what is now Jordan. But the pre-eminence of the shrine as well as the common belief in Mecca seems to suggest that it may have been dedicated originally to al-Llah, the High God of the Arabs ..." [Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet [Harper San Francisco; ISBN: 0062508865; Reprint edition, October 1993], pp. 61-62;]

And, "Pre-Islamic Arabia also had its stone deities. They were stone statues of shapeless volcanic or meteoric stones found in the deserts and believed to have been sent by astral deities. The most prominent deities were Hubal, the male god of the Ka'ba, and the three sister goddesses al-Lat, al-Manat, and al-Uzza; Muhammad's tribe, the Quraysh, thought these three goddesses to be the daughters of Allah. Hubal was the chief god of the Ka'ba among 360 other deities. He was a man-like statue whose body was made of red precious stone and whose arms were of solid gold. (George W. Braswell, Jr., Islam Its Prophets, Peoples, Politics and Power" [Broadman & Holman Publishers, Nashville, TN; July, 1996], p. 44]

And, "The name Allah was used as the personal name of the moon god, in addition to other titles that could be given to him.

Allah, the moon god, was married to the sun goddess. Together they produced three goddesses who were called "the daughters of Allah." These three goddesses were called Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat.

The daughters of Allah, along with Allah and the sun goddess were viewed as 'high" gods. That is, they were viewed as being at the top of the pantheon of Arabian deities.

Along with Allah, however, they worshipped a host of lesser gods and "daughters of Al-lah'" [Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, I:61]".

These female puppet celestial goddess, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, "These were also called 'the Daughters of Allah' and were supposed to intercede before God. When the Apostle of God was sent, God revealed unto him [concerning them] the following:" [source - Al-Tabari, Jami' al-Bay'dn fi Tafsir al-Qur'an, Cairo, 1323-1330, vol. xxvii, pp.34-36. Also F. V. Winnett, "The Daughters of Allah," in The Moslem World, vol. xxx (1940), pp. 113-130.]

And, "In Arabia, the sun god was viewed as a female goddess and the moon as the male god. As has been pointed out by many scholars such as Alfred Guilluame, the moon god was called by various names, one of which was Allah! [Islam: Muhammad, and His Religion, New York: The Liberal Arts Press, 1958,, p. 7].

And, "The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god." It is not a foreign word. It is not even the Syriac word for God. It is pure Arabic." [source - Arabic Lexicographical Miscellanies" by J. Blau in the Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. XVII, #2, 1972, pp. 173-190].

Allah was also known as Hubel, ""Among the gods worshiped by the Quraysh, the greatest was Hubal

...

Some additional details on this cleromantic deity, the most powerful of the pagan idols of Mecca, is supplied by the Meccan historian Azraqi ...

Amr ibn Luhayy brought with him (to Mecca) an idol called Hubal from the land of Hit in Mesopotamia. Hubal was one of the Quraysh's greatest idols so he set it up at the well inside the Kab'a and ordered the people to worship it. Thus a man coming back from a journey would visit it and circumambulate the House before going to his family, and would shave his hair before it ... "[Peters, Hajj: The Muslim Pilgrimage to Mecca and the Holy Places [Princeton University Press, NJ, 1994], pp. 24-25]

And, ""Khuza 'ah thus shared the guilt of Jurhum. They were also to blame in other respects: a chieftain of theirs, on his way back from a journey to SYRIA, had asked the MOABITES to give him ONE OF THEIR IDOLS. They gave him HUBAL, which he brought back to the Sanctuary, setting it up within the Ka'bah itself; and it became THE CHIEF IDOL OF MECCA." [Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources, Inner Traditions International, LTD. One Park Street, Rochestor Vermont 05767, 1983, p. 5].

And this Hubel or Allah the Moon god is indicated to be known by others as the Biblically condemned god, 'Baal.' Commenting on 'Abd al-Muttalib's rediscovery of the well of Zamzam and its treasures, Lings writes:

"... So 'Abd al-Muttalib continued to dig without any actual move being made to stop him; and some of the people were already leaving the sanctuary when suddenly he struck the well's stone covering and uttered a cry of thanksgiving to God. The crowd reassembled and increased; and when he began to dig out the treasure which Jurhum had buried there, everyone claimed the right to share in it. 'Abd al-Muttalib agreed that lots should be cast for each object, as to whether it should be kept in the sanctuary or go to him personally or be divided amongst the tribe. This had become the recognised way of deciding an issue of doubt, and it was done by means of divining arrows inside the Ka'bah, in front of THE MOABITE IDOL HUBAL ..." (Lings, p. 11; bold and capital emphasis ours)

'Amr then asked them to give him an idol he could take to Arab lands where it could be worshipped, and they gave him one named Hubal. This he brought to Mecca and set on a pedestal and ordered the people to worship and venerate it. (The Life of the Prophet Muhammad (Al-Sira al-Nabawiyya), Volume I, translated by professor Trevor Le Gassick, reviewed by Dr. Ahmed Fareed" [Garnet Publishing Limited, 8 Southern Court, south Street Reading RG1 4QS, UK; The Center for Muslim Contribution to Civilization, 1998], p. 42]

Interestingly, Ibn Kathir shows that the god of Muhammad's family was Hubal, and that his grandfather even prayed to Allah by facing Hubal's idol! Ibn Ishaq stated, "It is claimed that when 'Abd al-Mutallib received such opposition from Quraysh over the digging of zamzam, he vowed that if ten sons were born to him who grew up and protected him, he would sacrifice one of them for God at the ka'ba."

"Eventually he had ten sons grown up whom he knew would give him protection. Their names were al-Harith, al-Zubayr, Hajl, Dirar, al-Muqawwim, Abu Lahab, al-'Abbas, Hamza, Abu Talib, and 'Abd Allah. He assembled them and told them of his vow and asked them to honour his pledge to God, Almighty and All-glorious is He. They obeyed, and asked him what he wanted them to do. He asked each of them to take an arrow, write his name on it and return to him.

"They did so and went with them inside the ka'ba to the site of their god Hubal, where there was the well in which offerings to the ka'ba would be placed. There, near Hubal, were seven arrows which they would use for divining a judgement over some matter of consequence, a question of blood-money, kinship, or the like. They would come to Hubal to seek a resolution, accepting whatever they were ordered to do or to refrain from." [source - The Life of the Prophet Muhammad (Al-Sira al-Nabawiyya), Volume I, translated by professor Trevor Le Gassick, reviewed by Dr. Ahmed Fareed [Garnet Publishing Limited, 8 Southern Court, south Street Reading RG1 4QS, UK; The Center for Muslim Contribution to Civilization, 1998 , pp. 126-127].

"Allah (allah, al-ilah, the god) was the principal, though not the only, deity of Makkah. The name is an ancient one. It occurs in two South Arabic inscriptions, one a Minean found at al-'Ula and the other Sabean, but abounds in the form HLH in the Lihyanite inscriptions of the fifth century B.C. Lihyan, which evidently got the god from Syria, was the first center of the worship of this deity in Arabia. The name occurs as Hallah in the Safa inscriptions five centuries before Islam and also in a pre-Islamic Christian Arabic inscription found in umm-al-Jimal, Syria, and ascribed to the sixth century. The name of Muhammad's father was 'Abd-Allah ('Abdullah, the slave or worshiper of Allah). The esteem in which Allah was held by the pre-Islamic Makkans as the creator and supreme provider and the one to be invoked in time of special peril may be inferred from such koranic passages as 31:24, 31; 6:137, 109; 10:23. Evidently he was the tribal deity of the Quraysh." [Palgrave Macmillan, 2002; ISBN: 0-333-63142-0 paperback], pp. 100-101].

And, "Ibn Kathir noted that Muhammad's family worshiped Hubal, with the Oxford Dictionary of Islam stating that Hubal was the Quraysh's patron deity. If Hitti is correct regarding Allah being the Quraysh's' tribal deity then this provides additional proof that Allah was a name for Hubal. Note the following syllogism:

1. Hubal was the chief deity of the Quraysh.

2. Allah was the chief deity of the Quraysh.

3. Therefore, Hubal was Allah in pre-Islamic times.

There is another indirect piece of evidence which links Allah to Baal. Writer, Franz Rosenthal, while commenting on the mass confusion which surrounded the Muslims regarding the precise meaning of as-samad (Cf. 112:2), posits a possible origin for the word. He says:

... There is enough room for suspicion to permit us having a look at some outside evidence.

There, we encounter a noteworthy phenomenon: the not infrequent religious connotation of the root smd.

In Ugaritic, smd appears as a stick or club that is wielded by Ba'l. In the Kilammu inscription, line 15, we find b'l smd, apparently, b'l as the owner of his divine club. In the Bible, the adherence of the Israelites to Baal of Peor is expressed by the nip'al of the root smd. The verb is translated by the Septuagint heteleuse (Numeri 25:3, 5; Ps. 106:28). The use of the verb doubtlessly reflects North Canaanite religious terminology.

From Arabic sources, we learn that an idol of 'Ad was allegedly called samud, which brings us rather close to the environment of Muhammad

In view of this material, the suggestion may be made that as-samad in the Qur'an is a survival of an ancient Northwest Semitic religious term, which may no longer have been understood by Muhammad himself, nor by the old poets (if the sawahid should be genuine). This suggestion would well account for the presence of the article with the word in the Qur'an, and it would especially well account for the hesitation of the commentators vis-a-vis so prominent a passage. Such hesitation is what we would expect if we are dealing with a pagan survival from the early period of the revelation." [What the Koran Really Says: Language, Text, & Commentary, "Some Minor Problems in the Qur'an", edited with translation by Ibn Warraq {Prometheus Books, October, 2002, Hardcover; ISBN: 157392945X}, part 5.2, pp. 336-337]

Let's face it the proper name 'Allah' was much in use in pre-Islamic times and applied to pagan deities, now it is shown that 'Allah' is indicated to be the same as the pagan deity condemned by the Bible, 'Baal.'

"Allah, the paramount deity of pagan Arabia, was the target of worhip in varying degrees of intensity from the southernmost tip of Arabia to the Mediterranean. To the Babylonians he was "Il" (god); to the Canaanites, and later the Israelites, he was "El"; the South Arabians worshiped him as "Ilah," and the Bedouins as "al-Ilah" (the deity). With Muhammad he becomes Allah, God of the Worlds, of all believers, the one and only who admits of no associates or consorts in the worship of Him. Judaic and Christian concepts of God abetted the transformation of Allah from a pagan deity to the God of all monotheists. There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that "Allah" passed to the Muslims from Christians and Jews." [Caesar E. Farah, Ph.D., Islam {Barron's Educational Series, 2000, sixth edition paperback} p. 28]

CONCLUSION:

Clearly Islam owes term 'Allah' to the pagan/heathen Arabs. "We have evidence that it entered into numerous personal names in Northern Arabia and among the Nabatians. It occurs among the Arabs of later times, in theophorus names and on its own. Wellhausen also cites pre-Islamic literature where Allah is mentioned as a great deity. We also have the testimony of the Koran itself where He is recognized as a giver of rain, a creator, and so on; the Meccans only crime was to worship other gods beside Him. Eventually, Allah was only applied to the Supreme Deity. "In any case it is an extremely important fact that Muhammad did not find it necessary to introduce an altogether novel deity, but contented himself with ridding the heathen Allah of his companions subjecting him to a kind of dogmatic purification ... Had he not been accustomed from his youth to the idea of Allah as the Supreme God, in particular of Mecca, it may well be doubted whether he would ever have come forward as the preacher of Monotheism." [Ibn Warraq, Why I Am Not A Muslim {Prometheus Books, Amherst NY, 1995}, pp. 39-40, 42]

Ibn Warraq continues on, "Interesting is the name HUBAL (in Arabic and Hebrew script the vowels were not noted). This shows a very suspicious connection to the Hebrew HABAAL (= the Baal). As we all know this was an idol mentioned in the Bible (Num. 25:3, Hosea 9:10, Deut. 4:3, Josh. 22:17 and Ps. 106:28-29). Where was Baal worshipped? In Moab! It was the "god of fertility". Amr ibn Luhaiy brought Hubal from Moab to Arabia.

The name 'Allah' (from 'al-Ilah' - the god or 'al-Liah' = the one worshipped) was well used in pre-Islamic times. It was rather a title than a name and, was used for a diversity of deities. As we shall see later, an idol called Hubal was addressed as Allah. Muhammad's grandfather reportedly prayed to Hubal and addressed him as Allah. The deities al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat were called "the daughters of Allah" (Surah 53:19). "Allah was viewed, already before Muhammad, as the Lord of the Ka'ba, while, if not surely, but very probably, this sanctuary was devoted to Hubal, whose image was placed inside" (RESTE ARABISCHEN HEIDENTHUMS, p. 221 by J. Wellhausen). "While the rituals performed are still addressed to the respective deities, Allah is seen as the creator, the father and with that the superior Lord. But he is viewed to be too general, neutral and impersonal a Lord" [Ibn Warraq, Why I Am Not A Muslim {Prometheus Books, Amherst NY, 1995}, p. 219].

Therefore, "But the vague notion of Supreme (NOT SOLE) divinity which Allah seems to have connoted in Meccan religion was to BECOME both universal and transcendental; it was to be turned by the Kur'anic preaching, into the affirmation of the living God, the Exalted One." [Encyclopedia of Islam, 1960, p. 406; capital emphasis ours].

Now, lommmoool it is time for you to act and leave false worship and become a genuine (true) Christian -- NOT an apostate (counterfeit) Christian.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Edited by iris89 - 06 March 2006 at 11:36am

__________________
Francis David said it long ago, "Neither the sword of popes...nor the image of death will halt the march of truth."Francis David, 1579, written on the wall of his prison cell."

iris89  

Junior Member



Joined: 06 March 2006
Location: United States
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Religion: Christian(Non-denominational )
Posts: 243

Hi Lommmool

I notice in going back away that one, Starjade, told you a lot as follows:

What did you fail to learn from it?   Starjade may not use the best of language at all times but is a well respected Islamic scholar.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

__________________
Francis David said it long ago, "Neither the sword of popes...nor the image of death will halt the march of truth."Francis David, 1579, written on the wall of his prison cell."

Starjade, if you wish to quote me again, please first notice that I am agnostic. I believe in self deprecating humor. I truly an not likely to be shocked by anything you or anyone says, having seen it all.

I'm only shocked by those who want to overthrow the government of the US and turn it into a theocracy, and those who stand up for random killing.

You seem to be just another humor challenged poster.  So farewell.


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iris89  

Junior Member



Joined: 06 March 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Religion: Christian(Non-denominational )
Posts: 243

Hi Faaz

Your comment,

And I have seen NUTTIER things such as an insane irrational reaction to a silly cartoon, and Islam�s war on Islam. Let�s look at a few examples from the news:

And what is all this violence nuttiness about? It is about a trivia difference with regard who were Muhammad�s successors; how utterly ridiculous, insane irrational.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

__________________
Francis David said it long ago, "Neither the sword of popes...nor the image of death will halt the march of truth."Francis David, 1579, written on the wall of his prison cell."