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Sura 4:82 A Challenge
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silkworm
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Starjade
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Starjade says: In case you forget the Sura 4:82 states Do they not consider the Koran with care then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein. Now already I have shown many errors and discrepancies existing in the Koran. Including 11 Chapters of errors glorifying Jesus all of which does establish that Muhammad is not who he has claimed himself to being. That is of extraordinary significance of this issue in Islam
The claim that Abraham was an Imam is far reaching. Muhammad invented the religion of Islam and Imams are scholars mainly of the Koran which did not exist at all in the claimed days of Muhammad. So it seems more Islamic propaganda yet is is known that Muhammad as a child worshipped the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah and not the living God of Abraham and of Moses. And note again the mention of the Koran as if the mention of Abraham in its text gives the Koran some form of authenticity when in fact the Sura 4:82 just blew the Koran right out of the water with its proclamations with actual proof that the Koran does not come from God. Before I speak I wanted to let these matters and objections be known.
Starjade says: Once again this is Islamic propaganda in using the tale of sacrifice of Abrahams son as a way to say how to submit to god which is what the meaning of being a Muslim is so it is claimed. Using Old Testament text to try and gain converts. Whiles not mentioning the fact that Muhammad as a child worshipped the pagan moon god hubal al�ilah at the Kaaba with his parents and that the god of Muslims is not the god of Abraham but Hubal al�ilah the moon god of the muslims. And oblivious to the Sura 4:82 and the many errors in the Koran which is proven to not come from God which makes Muhammad presumptuous to think he could speak in Gods name.
Starjade says: I have shown many errors and discrepancies in the Koran that Muslims cannot give accounts for or dispute the facts those errors do exist in the Koran. This as the Koran admits is proof that the Koran does not come from God as Muhammad has claimed and that shows that Muhammad is not who he has claimed himself to being. If Muhammad had constructed the Kaaba then why does the writer of that text making that claim not mention the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah that Muhammad and his family worshipped at the Kaaba. Clearly Muhammad was not going to be praying to any moon god and the descendants of Ishmael fought against Islam and they were slaughtered. So then there is deceptions going on in this writers text. The living God of Abraham has not reserved anything for Muhammad other than the real Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet Starjade. And Muhammad and the Koran have certainly bitten the dust.
Starjade says: Just as I have said a way of gaining converts using Old Testament text. As good as saying if you want to be a loyal man like Abraham submit to the religion of Islam. Follow and believe in Muhammad. Yet. No mention of the Sura 4:82 that does establish that the Koran does not come from God and that Muhammad has been caught out in many deceptions and is a fraud. Or that the living God of Abraham was also the living God of Moses and the law brought down from the living God Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 is a law that determines matters of the truth regarding crimes of iniquity or sin. I have mentioned this word sin before. The fact is you need two or three witnesses to prove a thing is true and the fact is Muhammad has no witnesses for his self proclaimed proclamations.
Starjade says: Just who�s god is your god. The living God of Abraham and of Moses never mentions Muslims and in case you wee not paying any attention the Sura 4:82 just showed your Koran is false and that Muhammad is presumptuous to think he could speak in Gods name. So then this glorification and idolization sent to beguile. To use the Jews religion to gain converts to the fabricated religion of Islam that gives worship to the moon god Hubal al�ilah. The fact is all these boasts are in fact quotes from the Koran and not facts found in the Old Testament which is the source of that data and just who do you think it is who is challenging Islam you can be sure I am not the tooth fairy.
In case you forget. The descendants of Abraham were the ones that the living God spoke about to Abraham. But in case you forget not all Muslims are the descendants of Abraham. In fact didn�t Muhammad claim some of you had been turned into apes. ?
In suras 2:65-66 and 7:163-167, Allah turns certain fishing people who break the Jewish sabbath into apes for their disobedience.
Starjade says: So in other words Abraham was sacrificing his son to promote the fabricated religion of Islam that he had never heard about and which has been proven to not come from God. I really do not think so. And I note the Torah now gets a mention with some authority. Well bear in mind Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15. It is a witness law. Muhammad has no witnesses to his claims and that is what this promotional text is all about. Now I am not going to repeat every word of the propaganda that sacrifice one has to say. However.
Starjade says: Let me say that the living God has not chosen everyone on this planet. There is an apocalypse coming which will cause total Extinction on this planet. The living God did promise to raise up his Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet to gather up certain people. But it is not the whole blaspheming planet. In fact the living God taxed the Jews of man and beast. They are the Chosen ones although I did have plans to save others. The law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 is the law that determines matters of the truth and it was brought down by the living God. So it is Gods word. .
Starjade says: Sura 4:82 states Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein. I have named lists of errors that exist in the Koran. That then is evidence that the Koran does not come from God and that Muhammad is not a Prophet sent from God that he has proclaimed himself to being in fact he is presumptuous to think he could speak in Gods name. The Kaaba was a place where Arabs and others and Muhammad and his family went to worship the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah. Not the living God of Abraham. And just as I had said this is just propaganda fro muslims glorifying their fabricated religion of Islam which has already bitten the dust. Now Islamic law says Muslims must reject what is proven to not be true and Islam has been Sura 4:82�d. Too many errors for any Muslim to account for and so leaving such links does not help your case Sandy.
Starjade says: It is not true that the Koran is above plagiarism whiles its text is a similar book quoting Old and New Testament texts as its main story line even though worded differently leading up to of course the glorification of Muhammad as being the Messiah in that Koranic tale. The Koran is only around 1400 years old not the 6ooo years old that the Old Testament is often said to be. Explain why 11 Chapters of the Koran glorify Jesus when Jesus claimed he was that Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. Which is why they called Jesus the King of the Jews.
That is the same claim that the Koran also glorifies Muhammad as being that was the proclamation of Muhammad as all Muslims know. So why the mistake in 11 Chapters of the Koran if the Koran was so perfect it would have pointed out that according to the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 Jesus and those tales are established as not being true by the laws of the living God. So the Koran is making serious errors and is corrupted by Christian text that is easily proven to be untrue. The Sura 4 :82 also states if errors are found in the Koran then that is the proof that the Koran does not come from God. So Koranic corruptions are self evident. The Koran is proven to not be sent by God. The Koran itself admits that.
Starjade says: So when the Old Testament is not seen to smile favorably on the claims of the Koran it is then lies and deceptions and yet when Muhammad wants to use Old and new Testament text then those writings are conveniently true. The Sura 4:82 and the many errors found in the Koran show exactly which text is lying and it is you Muslims who are the ones finding it impossible to defend the Koran or the claims of Muhammad. I believe the only reason this statement has been made is to claim authenticity to the Koran which was only written some 1400 years ago. Therefore the Old Testament is still the only source of data.
Starjade quotes: Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15. One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: At the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. This is a witness law that is determines matters of the truth especially about statements that could be deemed as being blasphemous or sinful. It is not a matter for your own personal opinion. Even if nobody wanted to believe the evidence that is presented. If that law is fulfilled, then legally it is binding and should stand good according to religious law.
Starjade says: Now I accuse Muhammad of Blasphemy a crime of iniquity and sin. Bring forwards two or three witnesses who saw this angel Gabriel in the Cave or on the Mountain or who saw Muhammad fly off to heaven and had his chats with God. Where are those witnesses Testimonies. Without them Muhammad is guilty of crimes of iniquity and sin. Explain away why those many errors exist in the Koran. Do you claim the Living God of Abraham makes mistakes. The Sura 4:82 takes away the authenticity of the Koran because many error do exist in the Koran.
The Sura 4:82 then admits the Koran does not come from God. Starjade says: . I notice that the first link statements regarding these links are with regards to the claims of the Koran and not really dealing with the issue from the statements of the Old Testament which are the source of these stories. To dispute the fact that the Old Testament came first is a pointless attempt at deception by Muslim s because the Koran and its statements did not come along until long after the death of Muhammad. So where was that data collected from. It would not be wise to reply with that scam about the Angel Gabriel as I already have spoken of where Gabriel originated from and the Sura 4:82 already proves the Koran does not come from God and so there has to be a data source. So far I only see the Old Testaments. Sacrifice one could be construed as a most despicable examples of Arabic tampering with the Old Testament. The quotes from that page are Koranic quotes and not source of data quotes. It is well known the descendants of Ishmael have always been bitter and Jealous of the attention given to Isaac and his descendants. Arabs and many Muslims have always hated the jews that are descended from Isaac.
When a person looks at the Koran it is clear the Koran contains mainly Old and new Testament stories that are changed of course and re written to give an appearance it is something different than a clear cut copy of the Bible that contains Old and New Testament text. Yet that is what the Koran is trying to do. Copy the Bible but reword it to invent those religious beliefs as if their own. In a closed Islamic world, it would be easy to indoctrinate beliefs to the congregations who then walk around believing what they are told is true. It must be such a hard blow to then enter the rest of the world to find so much stands against other religious belief. During the Times of Muhammad he began his worship with his family of the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah. Not the living God of Abraham. Then as Muhammad grew and married he began to be taught of the Old and New Testament text from his wifes cousin Waraqa bin Nawful bin Asad al-uzza was a Christian believer and from others.
Now Christians always yackle on about their belief that Jesus was the son of God and so Muhammad did not realize the full story of Jesus claiming he was that Deuteronomy Ch 18 v15/18. Yet Muhammad was a descendant of Ishmael the first born of Abraham and so it seems clear he decided he could re create and copy the Bible into his own religion proclaiming himself as a descendant of Ishmael to be the long awaited Messiah. That is why Muhammad claims he is that long awaited Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 prophet that the living God promised Moses he would raise up. He was able to fulfill that ambition by the follow Islam or die scenario.
The whole Koran is a badly worded copy of the Old and New Testaments. and worded in such a way as to promote Ishmaelites as the descendants that the living God paid attention to rather than it being Isaac. Replacing all those tales in the Bibles. In short, stealing the Jews religion beliefs and history and hanging the theme of Israelites to Ishmaelites. Naturally as the Koran was writ well over 1400 years later so then this was done to attack the descendants of Isaac and to promote Muhammad as being that long awaited Messiah of the Jews that the living God promised Moses he would raise up. Using Ishmael as that line of descendancy because they believed of thy brethren meant of thy brethren to the Israelites.
Too bad for Muhammad is that a law exists in Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15. This is a law that determines matters of the truth regarding crimes of iniquity and sin. Muhammad just does not have those witnesses to his claims and all of his claims are proven to not be true by the law of Moses and that is even odder when Muhammad claimed he was that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up.
Made even more stranger by the fact Muhammad believed in Jesus and that is why 11 Chapters of the Koran glorify Jesus as being the Prophet that Jesus claimed himself to being which is that Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 prophet that the living God promised Moses he would raise up. Made even more stranger by the claim the Angel Gabriel appeared to give authenticity to Jesus who claimed he was that prophet. Muhammad then claims this same Angel Gabriel appeared to him on many occasions and proclaimed Muhammad to be that Deuteronomy Prophet that the living God promised Moses he would raise up which is made even more odd by the fact that Gabriel originated in a dream Daniel had whiles he was in a deep sleep and Daniel described a man not any angel.
All these factors also defy belief when the Sura 4:82 states Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from Allah (the supreme god) then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein. Now then Muslims Christians and Jews and others. Look at the Koran and these lists of errors existing in the Koran and realize it is an admission by the Koran that it did not come from God as Muhammad has claimed. So then the Koran has no authority to speak and its words are established as being untrue. The Old Testament is still the original source of all the data and the Old Testament clearly states it was Isaac who was offered up to sacrifice not Ishmael who it is said already been cast out into the wilderness with his Mother Hagar. What evidence exists beyond claims and supposition that can establish other wise.
The Koran is not evidence of authentic data when it is clear by the Sura 4:82 that the Koran did not come from God. So where was the source of that data. It could not come from the Koran written long after even the fabricated new Testament. It is just the Korans claim it was Ishmael and writ by an idolizing muslim who has no evidence other than his saying well it says this in the Koran. It is his attempts to convince others that these words in the Koran are then true. But shows no evidence other than it says so in the Koran. I wonder how that Muslims will deal with the Revelations given to the Sura 4:82 of the Koran that discounts all of his claims and words.
It could be said here that there is no limit to the textual distortions and lies introduced taken from the scriptures when it comes to Ismail and the Ka`aba. Especially when some idolizing Muslim wants to glorify his idols.
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Starjade
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Starjade says: I agree I do not believe the living God did such a thing which brings it all down to a writers claims perhaps for the reason of saying look how people would sacrifice their own children to follow God yet look also God is abundant with kindness and was only testing you. It all seems far fetched. You and I did not live in those Times and so we cannot know what happened for sure. We can see some storyline had to exist. All we have are tales of this and that. Now you see why I ignore the whole text and just stick with Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 and the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15.
The second link to sacrifice deals mostly with with Dreams ? I am a seeing is believing kind of person and as a Prophet with mine own abilities I see the event whiles trance stated and am fully awake in that trance and not dreaming. So I do not put any trust or credibility to those who are the dreamers of dreams. It is not showing proof that Isaac or Ishmael were offered to sacrifice but speaks on about the reason to sacrifice and how it was done through out the ages with this and that. I laughed when it spoke of the dreams of Daniel for it was whiles Daniel was asleep that was where he dreamed of a man call another man by the name of Gabriel. That was the origin of Gabriel.
The writers of the New Testament wrote their characters and only their character Luke claimed Gabriel was an angel to promote Jesus as being that Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 prophet that god promised Moses he would raise up. Muhammad claimed this imaginary angel Gabriel appeared to him in a Cave. And on the Mountain and in other places because he believed the tales of the Christians new Testament and so believed that this Angel Gabriel was real. And it was Waraqa bin Nawful bin Asad al-uzza who was a Christian believer who told Muhammad about this angel Gabriel. Muhammad clearly believed those tales. And it was the writers of the New Testament who invented Gabriel as being an Angel and promoted that thought through their character Luke. Who was not even a witness to the birth of Jesus which according to Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 is then not established as being true by Gods law. I find the words of lets analyze the Torah in the link Sacrifice two as being suspicious for that immediately starts the writer into a mode of control of what he wants you to see his thoughts as being. After all it is only the writer speaking and so he is the one analyzing and giving his view. In that way he begins by his words to control the way you see a thing. I say let us not analyze the Torah but simply read what is said for it is plain speaking. As it is the source of data for those tales then it has little reason for deceptions.
Explain exactly where all the data from the Koran comes from especially regarding the claims that it was Ishmael who was offered up for sacrifice. The Koran being only some 1400 years old it cannot be the source of data from the Old Testament text which is some 6000 years Old and so where does this data of claimed evidence in the Koran come from. What historical books date back to those ancient times.
I add the fact the Sura 4:82 admits the Koran where such claims are being made does not come from God. The errors found in the Koran are so vast and no muslim on this planet is in any position to dispute that fact. As it says by the writer of Sacrifice two the context would reveal the truth through other details, and I have explain some of those other details that Muslims clearly are discounting when they make such claims.
The Sacrifice three claims it was Ishmael that Abraham had taken away when the Old Testament already states that Hagar and Ishmael had in fact already been cast out into the wilderness and so that left only Isaac to accompany Abraham. The thread you linked to only covered its speculations and suppositions. Clearly the idolizers of Muhammad wanted to create a history of noble descendants leading to of course their self appoint prophet Muhammad. Just as the Christians did for Jesus. The old of thy brethren scenario that I have often discounted in the past before. Too bad after all their efforts that the Koran itself via the Sura 4:82 and the many errors in the Koran states Muhammad is not a Prophet from God and he is presumptuous to think he could speak in Gods name. Islamic history shows Muhammad as a child who was giving worship with his family to a pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah and so how can that be noble.
All these Islamic claims in the Koran culminate in that claim made by Muhammad that he alone was that Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 prophet that the living God promised Moses he would raise up. And yet according to the Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 which is a law brought down by Moses from the living God you need two or three witnesses to prove a thing is true. The fact is Muhammad still has no witnesses to back up his claims. The law of Moses already establishes that Muhammad is guilty of iniquity and sin and that he is presumptuous to even think he could speak in the living Gods name.
It is quite a large ambition to try and re create and copy the Bible with their own altered wording of the Koran. It also means that the religious beliefs of all idolizing muslims would then stand against the religious beliefs and doctrines of both the descendant Jews from Isaac and of the Christians. I wonder if that realization is why it says kill them so they no longer exist.
Clearly though when the real Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet does come along well he would know of those deceptions and the living Gods anger would blaze upon the Muslims. In fact if you look around in today�s world there is no doubt Muslims are in a living Hell. So Muhammad and the belief in Muhammad has not saved you. And no Muslim on this planet can defend the Koran or Muhammad from the Sura 4:82 Revelations. No Christian can defend Jesus either from that Deuteronomy Prophets Revelations and both doctrines still to this day continue to bite the dust. The conclusion then is self evident. The Koran is a book that is in error.
And why would the Jews of those Times try and change the text of the Torah.? After all the Jews are all the descendants of Abraham that is of Ishmaelites and Israelites. Muslims did not exist in those days and neither did any Koran or the New Testament or Christians. So why that paranoia. The Torah was the only written data source of those Times like a diary. How could they know you Muslims and Christians would come along to try and steal their Torah and reinvent it for you own purposes?
So
then let us skip onto
The Great Sacrifice (3) |
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Starjade
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Starjade says: Abraham was in Beesaba and so was Sarai. Sarai had been taken by Abimelech king of Gerar They were all at Beersheba.
Genesis 20:2 And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah. Genesis 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife. Genesis 20:4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, LORD, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? Genesis 20:5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. Genesis 20:9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done. Genesis 20:10 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing? Genesis 20:11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. Genesis 20:15 And Abimelech said, Behold, my land is before thee: dwell where it pleaseth thee.
Starjade says: This was where Sarai conceived and gave birth to Isaac.
Genesis 21:1 And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken. Genesis 21:2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. Genesis 21:3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.
Starjade says; And as it says that Abraham circumcised Isaac when Isaac was 8 years old then Abraham had been there for some Time.
Genesis 21:4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him.
Genesis 21:5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac
was born unto him. |
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Starjade
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Starjade says: Clearly as Abimelech king of Gerar was there then the place did have inhabitants. And Abraham dug out those wells in the company of Abimelech king of Gerar.
Genesis 21:29 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What mean these seven ewe lambs which thou hast set by themselves? Genesis 21:30 And he said, For these seven ewe lambs shalt thou take of my hand, that they may be a witness unto me, that I have digged this well. Genesis 21:31 Wherefore he called that place Beersheba; because there they sware both of them. Genesis 21:32 Thus they made a covenant at Beersheba: then Abimelech rose up, and Phichol the chief captain of his host, and they returned into the land of the Philistines. Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God. Genesis 21:34 And Abraham sojourned in the Philistines' land many days.
Starjade
says; It was after these events that Abraham was claimed to have
taken Isaac to the land of Moriah to offer Isaac up for sacrifice as
it says in the Old Testament. |
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Starjade
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Starjade says: Clearly Sarai had been taken by Abimelech king of Gerar and so Hagar and Ishmael would probably be with Abraham at that Time. Until Sarai had been returned When sarai was returned she gave birth to Isaac. Sarai had been kidnapped by Abimelech king of Gerar and they were all at Beersheba and that was where Abraham built the well with Abimelech.
Genesis 21:29 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What mean these seven ewe lambs which thou hast set by themselves? Genesis 21:30 And he said, For these seven ewe lambs shalt thou take of my hand, that they may be a witness unto me, that I have digged this well. Genesis 21:31 Wherefore he called that place Beersheba; because there they sware both of them. Genesis 21:32 Thus they made a covenant at Beersheba: then Abimelech rose up, and Phichol the chief captain of his host, and they returned into the land of the Philistines.
Starjade concludes: It is hardly rocket science to see that later Sarai returned home and that was where she died at another Time. Abraham was out and about after all he did own a lot of land and had to keep check on it. So your conclusions are not standing on solid ground as it appears.
Starjade says; It does not show anything of the sort other than the writers fanciful imagination. The statements of the Old Testament give a different view.
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Starjade
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Starjade says: Clearly the Old Testament shows that Isaac was born at that Time. After Sarai was released by Abimelech king of Gerar. So then already your evidence is on shaky ground.
Genesis 20:14 And Abimelech took sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and womenservants, and gave them unto Abraham, and restored him Sarah his wife. Genesis 20:15 And Abimelech said, Behold, my land is before thee: dwell where it pleaseth thee. Genesis 20:16 And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved. Genesis 20:17 So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children. Genesis 20:18 For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife. Genesis 21:1 And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken. Genesis 21:2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. Genesis 21:3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.
Starjade says: Later on the Old Testament says: Genesis 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. Genesis 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
Starjade continues: Clearly this is why they left into the wilderness of Beersheba for that is where they all were.
Later on the Old Testament says: Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Starjade concludes it does appear that the speculations of the writer are unfounded. The Koran is not Holy and is proven by the many errors that exist in the Koran to not be a book sent from God. And it is manipulating text for its own reasons.
Starjade says: The Kaaba was used as a worship to false gods in particular the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah. Christians and Muslims both follow false Prophets who are presumptuous to think they could speak in Gods name so they are hardly religious experts. The Old Testament states very clearly that Abraham built the wells in Beersheba in the company of Abimelech king of Gerar and they were all at Beersheba. Abimelech had taken sarai from Abraham in the belief that she was only his sister. Not long after her release she gave birth to Isaac and Isaac was 8 yrs Old when Abraham circumcised him and so they were all still residing in Beersheba and Abimelech king of Gerar had given them his blessing to do so.
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Starjade
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Starjade says: So they were not then made strangers even by that separations. They came together to bury their father. It is odd that the other sons of Abraham are not then also mentioned.
Genesis 25:1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. Genesis 25:2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. Genesis 25:6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
Starjade
says: I wonder if the Koran has any mention of them. Or
are these facts of other sons of Abraham not known to you. |
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Starjade
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Starjade says: The truth more likely flows from these Old Testament verses. Genesis 20:14 And Abimelech took sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and womenservants, and gave them unto Abraham, and restored him Sarah his wife. Genesis 20:15 And Abimelech said, Behold, my land is before thee: dwell where it pleaseth thee. Genesis 20:16 And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved. Genesis 20:17 So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children. Genesis 20:18 For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife. Genesis 21:1 And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken. Genesis 21:2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. Genesis 21:3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.
Starjade says: Later on the Old Testament says: Genesis 21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. Genesis 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
Starjade continues: Clearly this is why they left into the wilderness of Beersheba for that is where they all were. Later on the Old Testament says: Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Starjade concludes it does appear that the speculations of the writer
of the great sacrifice are unfounded. |
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Starjade
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Starjade says: Starjade is well known for doing some seemingly impossible things with great ease. It is evidence that from Old Testament text that it was Isaac offered up for sacrifice. The claims your Islamic writer has made stands on very shaky ground.
Starjade says: These are not proven facts at all they are Islamic desperations. Both Ishmael and Isaac were living with their parents at Beersheba as I have already shown. Sarai was taken by Abimelech king of Gerar. Clearly the Old Testament shows that Isaac was born at that Time. After Sarai was released by Abimelech king of Gerar. Abraham was still in Beersheba digging wells and circumcised Isaac when he was 8 years old. It was later on that Hagar and Ishmael were cast out into that wilderness of Beersheba. So then already your evidence is on shaky ground. I do hope I am not going to have to keep repeating myself to get those facts across to the congregations.
Starjade
says: (Yawn) a figure of speech hardly brings out much arguments.
I am sure Abraham loved all of his sons and he did have more than two.
By the Time of this acclaimed sacrifice Hagar and Ishmael had already
been cast out so it is claimed and so that left only Isaac as Abrahams
only son with him at that Time. |
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Starjade
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Starjade says: Actually the Old Testament says Abraham was claimed to have taken Isaac to the land of Moriah to offer Isaac up for sacrifice. Perhaps you name change is why you could not find this place. As I have no maps of that area at this Time I shall investigate this place another time. As it seems clear nobody else has a clue where that specific place is then it is not justified for muslims to jump up claiming it is near the Kabba for that place is well known to be a Temple of the worship of many pagan false gods specifically the false moon god Hubal al�ilah. I am sure Abraham would have gathered up armies and walked all over them for their blasphemy if he had been near.
Starjade says: Well the word Moriah does exist in the Bibles I own and they are said to have been translated from original manuscripts. Designed to be read in Churches. So I am not going to enter in to the speculations being made on that debate. I will make a point on this next quote though.
Starjade says: Do not forget that just before that sacrifice of the son of Abraham. Hagar and Ishmael was at Beersheba with Abraham and Sarai and Isaac. So Ishmael was not flying around naming this or that place. It was the living God who gave the directions so clearly Abraham did not know the terrain of the place he was going to. That also concludes Ishmael did not either for he was always with Abraham until he was cast out into the wilderness. And Beersheba was already under control of Abimelech king of Gerar. And so that is a far reaching hope that Ishmael had named these places before that sacrifice instead of long after in his wanderings. |
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Starjade
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Starjade says: Hardly an illustration when the Koran puts in its ten penneth worth after all they offered up sacrifices to the Pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah even in the days of Muhammad. It was part of the moon worship rituals and so not the same thing at all.
Starjade says: The Old Testament says:
Genesis 12:5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
Genesis 12:6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
Genesis 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Genesis 12:8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.
Starjade concludes. Whiles it seems a good account from the links of the so called great sacrifice 1 2 and 3 the fact remains that no actual proof from that writer can be seen. His clear reliance on the Koran already shows certain limitations when the Sura 4:82 and many errors of the Koran establish that the Koran does not come from God. However it was still a good read.
I
have been able to dispute those claims and so the Old Testament still
has conformation whiles the Korans claims do not. However I was
intrigued by the locations of certain places and so I shall go do some
research on those matters when Time allows. Yet until then it
is clear that the Old Testament does still give an account for all these
events whiles the Koran cannot. |
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Starjade
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jimdi3 you said: Sandy go study the meaning of 'gave her husband Abram to be his wife'
Starjade says: I agree this giving of Hagar is not the same as a man and women in consent to Marriage equally but it does say Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham as his wife. It is not possible to argue against the truth of that statement. Even though it was not meant as a marriage but as a sexual breeding relationship. I feel well sorry for poor Hagar. Yet that is how they behaved in those days.
jimdi3 you said: Genesis 16 1 Now Sarai the wife of Abram, had brought forth no children; but having a handmaid, an Egyptian, named Agar, 2 She said to her husband: Behold, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: go in unto my handmaid, it may be I may have children of her at least. And when he agreed to her request, 3 She took Agar the Egyptian her handmaid, ten years after they first dwelt in the land of Chanaan, and gave her to her husband to wife. 4 And he went in to her. But she, perceiving that she was with child, despised her mistress. 5 And Sarai said to Abram: Thou dost unjustly with me: I gave my handmaid into thy bosom, and she perceiving herself to be with child, despiseth me. The Lord judge between me and thee.
3 "To wife"... Plurality of wives, though contrary to the primitive institution of marriage, Gen. 2. 24, was by divine dispensation allowed to the patriarchs: which allowance seems to have continued during the time of the law of Moses. But Christ our Lord reduced marriage to its primitive institution. Matt. 19. 6 And Abram made answer, and said to her: Behold thy handmaid is in thy own hand, use her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai afflicted her, she ran away. 7 And the angel of the Lord having found her, by a fountain of water in the wilderness, which is in the way to Sur in the desert, 8 He said to her: Agar, handmaid of Sarai, whence comest thou? and whither goest thou? And she answered: I flee from the face of Sarai, my mistress. 9 And the angel of the Lord said to her: Return to thy mistress, and humble thyself under her hand. 10 And again he said: I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, and it shall not be numbered for multitude.
A few points to ponder: If Hagar became Abrams wife in the sense of being a partner why would Abram say to Sarai Behold thy handmaid and if Abram wife in the sense of being a partner why did she run away from her Mistress? Surely being the 'wife' of Abram shewould no longer be Sarai's slave girl.
Starjade says: That is a very good point and that was the point I also was making. Hagar was simply taking over the sexual role of the wife and not taking her place. However the Old Testament passage does say Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham to be his wife. In marriages of many wives scenarios the newer wives do not share equal place to the original wives. Sarai however would still consider Hagar to be her servant and only taking on her roles regarding the physical relationship of the wife.
jimdi3 you said: The lesson here is that Sarai knowing of God's promise took the initiative because she believed herself to be incapable of child bearing and pre-empted God. It just needs reading the context and a little understanding. Jim
Starjade
says: Yes the whole point was that Sarai believed she could not
bear children and so she allowed her servant to take that physical role
of a wife to bear Abraham children. However the Old Testament
passage does say to be his wife. Sarai did give her servant up
to be Abrahams wife. And so she would bear Abraham a child. |
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Starjade
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Starjades final conclusion:
All told we have all heard the claims from Muslims and from Muhammad that he is that Deuteronomy Chapter 18 verses 15/18 Prophet that the living God promised Moses he would raise up. We have heard the same claims from Jesus and his Christian followers. And you have also heard such claims from myself the Doomsday Prophet Starjade.
Now the most powerful Moses brought down some laws from the living God and I point out the law of Deuteronomy Chapter 19 verse 15. One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: At the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
This is a witness law that determines matters of the truth especially about statements that could be deemed as being blasphemous or sinful. It is not a matter for your own personal opinion. Even if nobody wanted to believe the evidence that is presented. If that law is fulfilled, then legally it is binding and should stand good according to religious law.
Now I suggest instead of us all arguing errors in this or that we should examine first the claims of those who claimed that they are that specific Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet. The living God only promised Moses he would raise up only one Prophet. As all three claimants are claiming themselves to being that specific Prophet then it is clear someone in fact certainly two or all of them must then be lying.
To make such a claim and be false then that is Blasphemy which is a crime of iniquity and sin. So according to the Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 law that must be invoked they are all accused of the crime of Blasphemy by their claims. So then upon the Judgements of the Law of Moses two or three witnesses must be called so we can diligently establish those claims as being true or not.
I can say without any fear of contradiction that Muhammad and Jesus have no witnesses for their claims and whiles I expose their deceptions I give this link so it can be established that I have more than four witnesses that can back up my claims and so I win that conversation and debate and diligent inquisition established as being that specific Deuteronomy Chapter 18 verses 15/18 Prophet that the living God promised Moses he would raise up without any contest from those other two pretenders to my Throne.
Judge the Proof of the Doomsday Prophet Starjade established by Deuteronomy law. http://www.geocities.com/end_of_times/chaptertwo.htm
So brag your brags and then always be prepared to bite the dust. There is only one Lord King of the apocalyptic Castle and that is the much loved Deuteronomy Doomsday Prophet Starjade.
And so you all know. I am not bound within the confines of any particular liturgical form of worship. I have a personal knowledge of the living God that goes way beyond belief. So I have a knowledge of the living God and not just some belief.
Furthermore, I have no interest in the Jews or Christians or Muslims. You can all go worship a stone for all I care after all what you believe does not affect me. However, what does interest me is the Prophecy left here by the Living God in Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18. The living God promised he would raise up a Prophet in the midst of thee of thy brethren. And to him you should hearken. The Jews have been waiting thousands of years for that Prophet to arrive and gather them all up from the four corners of the globe and lead them all to a new promised land (which incidentally) will arrive in the South Eastern Atlantic basin next to Africa on that future apocalyptic Doomsday.
Now that Prophecy made by the living God to Moses is the thing that interests me. For I have seen a series of world wide earthquakes and land movements culminating in a 900km eruption blasting out from the Planets surface. The Dust clouds of which will suffocate every oxygen breathing life form on this planet.
So that specific Prophecy showed me a way that it was logically possible to gather up millions of millions of people and move them out of those, grave earth quaked zones and move them from those four corners of the globe and build a city to house them all in preparation for that Doomsday. All I needed to do to accomplish that task is outright prove to the Jews that I am that very specific Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet that they had all been waiting for.
Curiously the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 can establish without any doubt that I am that very specific Prophet. And I brought that law to the Jews attention with details of the apocalypse with a view to an Exodus of all Jews from the four corners of the globe way back in 1995. And at that Time all the many Prophesied signs in the heavens all aligned in conjunction with each other. As a sign of the coming of that Chosen one.
So then whiles you brag your brags for Jesus and Muhammad remind yourself as to who it is you are making those very claims to.
I point out to all you Muslims that the Jews have broken their Covenant as was expected once again and so it is also within my power to stone them all to death for their Blasphemy. This was also the only reason I gained the power to convert Muslims away from Islam because the descendants of Ishmael are today�s Arabs.? The living God said one Nation not two. You Muslims give your worship to Hubal al�ilah and so those Arabs needed to be converted. Yet they appear just as bad as their brethren.
The Jews did not like to be unsettled again after the world allowed Germany to kill them all off. They did not like my intent to demand the tax they owe to the living God which is my right as the living Gods Deuteronomy Doomsday Prophet and they did not like the idea of selling off the lands of Israel to the Muslims for larger land in Africa to house them all after the Exodus from the four corners of the globe. And they did not like my plans to build the Third Temple in Africa whiles they awaited for the land that I had promised them. And they did not like my plans to make peace with the descendants of Ishmael and bring those two tribes together for the event of their survival. It seems whiles they are doing all that wanting they forget the Covenant that they made with the Living God who said to me they should hearken. After all my rank and my Destiny makes me the real Lord King of all those Jews. And so I know what is best for them after all I came from those future apocalyptic Times and so I know what they are about to face.
Now I give you some of my reasons as to why I brought the law of Deuteronomy to the Jews and so you all know just what it is that I am about and the reasons why I speak the things that I do. There are no contenders to my Throne so stop living in your delusions.
Now then. When you think of the whole of Christianity and then the whole of Islam. And of all that has been said to you. What was the reasoning behind the claims of Jesus and Muhammad who both claimed that they were that Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet. What was their actual reasons for making such a claim as to make that claim you do need reasons and a purpose and proof that the claim made is true. Then think about what it is what proof did they have that caused you all to just believe them.
The Claims of Jesus and Muhammad stand against the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 and neither Jesus or Muhammad have any proof or witnesses to back up their claims.
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