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Sura 4:82 A Challenge
for Islam. Posts 742. Views 6597.
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Bill2702
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I see you guys are still at it? It's nice to know somethings don't change! I will bet not a single mind has been changed!
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hafsa 
Junior Member Joined: 22 February 2006 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Religion: Islam(Muslim) Posts: 140 |
it happened only recently.
first i thought what the heck, then i thought i might as well answer,
afterall its not so difficult to find faults with wrong allegations.
i didn't even mention he made a wrong refernce to an ayat, but
then to err is human!
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sandy
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In response to the above objection of Starjade; hafsa wrote: Remember: the real divine part of the divine books. Not inclusive of the errors and interjections of people with vested interests before and after our Prophet Mohammad (SalAllaho Alehe Wassalam.). Also there was no human amendment in Quran�s text after the physical demise of our Prophet (s.a.w), nor could it be. I hope this answer satisfy Starjade. If not, I would like to draw Starjade's attention to the following: Who was the son whom the Prophet Abraham (pbuh) had got ready to offer as a sacrifice, and who had willingly offered himself to be slaughtered as a sacrifice? The first answer to this question is given by the Bible; and it is this: And it came to pass after these things, that G-d did prove Abraham, and said unto him: 'Abraham'; and he said: 'Here am I.' And He said: 'Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.' (Gen. 22: 1-2). (http://www.breslov.com/bible/Genesis22.htm#1) Now consider the following statements of the Bible: "Now Sarai, Abram's wife bore him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abraham, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abraham hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai Abraham's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abraham had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her husband Abram to be his wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived." (Gen .16: 1-4) "And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael." (16: 11) "And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him." (Gen. 21: 5). This brings out the contradictions of the Bible. It is evident that for 14 years the Prophet Ishmael (pbuh) was the only son of the Prophet Abraham (pbuh). Now if the offering had been asked of the only son, it was not of Isaac (pbuh) but of Ishmael (pbuh), for he alone was the only son; and if the offering of Isaac (pbuh) had been asked, it would be wrong to say that the offering of the only son had been asked. And Starjade don't forget the following verses: "Now Sarai, Abram's wife bore him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abraham, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abraham hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai Abraham's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abraham had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her husband Abram to be his [Abraham's] wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived." (Gen .16: 1-4) Edited by sandy - 12 April 2006 at 7:20pm |
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| wesley Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Religion: Christian(Jehovah's Witness) Posts: 455 |
This brings out the contradictions of the Bible. No, it doesn't. Issac was Abraham's only son by Sarah.
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sandy
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And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael. (Gen.16: 11) And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. (Gen 17:20) Hagar too was Prophet Abraham's wife as Sarah : gave her husband Abram to be his [Abraham's] wife ---(Genesis 16:3) and thus Ishamel was his first and blessed son and father of twelve rulers and a great nation.
Jews tried to change the text of the Torah but did not do a "good
job" thus the contradiction is still there and very clear
when you read it carefully. |
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sandy
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For wesley, Starjade and all Christians:
The Great Sacrifice (1) http://www.renaissance.com.pk/ferefl94.html The Great Sacrifice (2) http://www.renaissance.com.pk/maprefl94.html The Great Sacrifice (3) http://www.renaissance.com.pk/novrefl95.html
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jimdi3
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Sandy go study the meaning of 'gave her husband Abram to be his wife' Genesis 16
1 Now Sarai the wife of Abram, had brought forth no children; but having a handmaid, an Egyptian, named Agar, 2 She said to her husband: Behold, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: go in unto my handmaid, it may be I may have children of her at least. And when he agreed to her request, 3 She took Agar the Egyptian her handmaid, ten years after they first dwelt in the land of Chanaan, and gave her to her husband to wife. 4 And he went in to her. But she, perceiving that she was with child, despised her mistress. 5 And Sarai said to Abram: Thou dost unjustly with me: I gave my handmaid into thy bosom, and she perceiving herself to be with child, despiseth me. The Lord judge between me and thee.
3 "To wife"... Plurality of wives, though contrary to the primitive institution of marriage, Gen. 2. 24, was by divine dispensation allowed to the patriarchs: which allowance seems to have continued during the time of the law of Moses. But Christ our Lord reduced marriage to its primitive institution. Matt. 19.
6 And Abram made answer, and said to her: Behold thy handmaid is in thy own hand, use her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai afflicted her, she ran away. 7 And the angel of the Lord having found her, by a fountain of water in the wilderness, which is in the way to Sur in the desert, 8 He said to her: Agar, handmaid of Sarai, whence comest thou? and whither goest thou? And she answered: I flee from the face of Sarai, my mistress. 9 And the angel of the Lord said to her: Return to thy mistress, and humble thyself under her hand. 10 And again he said: I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, and it shall not be numbered for multitude.
A few points to ponder: If Hagar became Abrams wife in the sense of being a partner why would Abram say to Sarai Behold thy handmaid and if Abram wife in the sense of being a partner why did she run away from her Mistress? Surely being the 'wife' of Abram shewould no longer be Sarai's slave girl. The lesson here is that Sarai knowing of God's promise took the initiative because she believed herself to be incapable of child bearing and pre-empted God.
It just needs reading the context and a little understanding. Jim
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Starjade
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Strajade says: Well now what a pleasant surprise and there was me thinking I would have to moan at Muslims to get a reply. Its seems Kayyam is still thinking as I saw no Kayyam replies here. I must say first off those blasphemous Christians are having Easter holidays and this will take me offline until Tuesday. (sigh)
Of course we all know why they celebrate Easter with eggs for this is the celebration of the Time they made an eggsample of Jesus so those Christians claim. Tsk Tsk Tsk but lets face the truth Deuteronomy law does establish Jesus is a fraud and that is of no help to Islam whiles 11 Chapters of the Koran glorify Jesus as being the prophet that Jesus has proclaimed himself as being. This whole Christian thing is mystifying after all as everyone knows the punishment for blasphemy is a death by stoning not by crucifixion. But then Christianity is a Roman tale of deception and so they go along with what they are used to. Just as Muslims did when they spoke of the death of the magicians using the capital punishments of the day.
Anyways
it may take some Time to reply to all your comments. I have not
read them yet but I hope you took my advice and be wary. Too many
fools fall into traps left by the most religious scholar the much loved
Doomsday Prophet Starjade. I see flaws in your comments already.
I hope you took advice from your Imams for it makes your defeat in these
oncoming conversations so much more valuable from many points of view.
You must surely be aware by now the Doomsday Prophet Starjade is not
a novice and I eat all kinds for breakfast. I just thought I would
say so you tread carefully where your Imams usually fear to tread.
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Starjade
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Starjade
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Starjade says; Well if there is an error in my words then tell me so and I will check on what you say and apolagise for that mistake. I may be an Alien resident but nobody is perfect. In the staggering amounts of writing I do after getting all blearly eyed to err is a possibility. But it can be corrected if brought to my notice. So what was it then eh.?
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Starjade
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Starjade says: Well now what a pleasant surprise and there was me thinking I would have to moan at Muslims to get a reply. Its seems Kayyam is still thinking as I saw no Kayyam replies here. I must say first off those blasphemous Christians are having Easter holidays and this will take me offline until Tuesday. (sigh)
Of course we all know why they celebrate Easter with eggs for this is the celebration of the Time they made an eggsample of Jesus so those Christians claim. Tsk Tsk Tsk but lets face the truth Deuteronomy law does establish Jesus is a fraud and that is of no help to Islam whiles 11 Chapters of the Koran glorify Jesus as being the prophet that Jesus has proclaimed himself as being. This whole Christian thing is mystifying after all as everyone knows the punishment for blasphemy is a death by stoning not by crucifixion. But then Christianity is a Roman tale of deception and so they go along with what they are used to. Just as Muslims did when they spoke of the death of the magicians using the capital punishments of the day.
Anyways it may take some Time to reply to all your comments. I have not read them yet but I hope you took my advice and be wary. Too many fools fall into traps left by the most religious scholar the much loved Doomsday Prophet Starjade. I see flaws in your comments already. I hope you took advice from your Imams for it makes your defeat in these oncoming conversations so much more valuable from many points of view. You must surely be aware by now the Doomsday Prophet Starjade is not a novice and I eat all kinds for breakfast. I just thought I would say so you tread carefully where your Imams usually fear to tread.
OK here are the errors you think:
1. The first established error in the Koran: concerns the adoption of Moses by Pharaoh's wife (in sura 28:9). This story contradicts the Biblical Exodus 2:10 version, which states that it was Pharaoh's daughter who adopted Moses.[/quote] hafsa you said: One pharaoh was the father who adopted Moses p.b.u.h and one Pharaoh was his son who was born after Moses p.b.u.h was adopted. Biblical Exodus is not a valid reference.
Starjade says: I remind you Hafsa that according to the Koran the Old Testament Exodus statement is most valid. And must be respected. - Sura 6.155: And this (Torah) is a Book We have revealed, blessed; therefore follow it and guard (against evil) that mercy may be shown to you.
- Sura 46:12 we are told.... "And before it the Book of Musa (Moses) (Torah) was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good......" - Starjade says: It is established by Egyptian history that Nefure Hatshepsut was the one who adopted Moses and she was not married at that Time. What is more she only ever became married after Moses Killed the Egyptian and fled Egypt. The death of the Pharaoh Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep 1 was nearing and so he married off his daughter Nefure Hatshepsut to her half brother otherwise they would have lost the Crown of Egypt to another family.
Pharaoh Ahmosis who lived in Thebes in Memphis was at the Time of that adoption the main King rulers of Egypt and the Pharaoh Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep 1 who was the father of Nefure Hatshepsut was only a co regent Pharaoh not the ruling King Pharaoh. It was Nefure Hatshepsut who adopted Moses not her father. The Koran is in error when it claims she was the wife of the Pharaoh. For Nefure only became married when Moses killed an Egyptian and had to flee Egypt. Moses was then some 40 years old. Only then was Nefure Hatshepsut married.
She was married to her half brother who was called Ramesise rather than Pharaoh because Moses was then the Crown prince and was to be the main ruling King Pharaoh. However that is in another Time zone for then Moses was some 40 years Old and the Koran speaks of Nefure being married when she adopted Moses when she was not. She was simply the daughter of the Pharaoh. Unmarried to anyone until another 40 years was to pass. One down a few more to go. Be patient I will reply to all said: But My access to the Internet will end soon until Tuesday. There is too much to reply to respond on it all today OK.
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Kayyam
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I thought of this. But the bottom line is that there is no contemporary
historical source to prove one claim or another. The records were most
likely destroyed by the post-exodus conquerors. There are several historical
theories but no proof.
According to Wikipedia there is some debate on this point: "Some claim the Arabic name Isa is related to the biblical Esau. but it is also similar in the vowels to the Aramaic version of Jesus, viz. Eesho" Interestingly, Arab Christians refer to Jesus as Yasu'a while Arab Muslims refer to him as Isa. The source of this is the difference in transliteration of the Bible into Arabic and the Koran. Naturally, each side tends to think that they are more right than the other. hafsa, Good job debunking these "errors". They are not very original - most are copy-paste which is something starjade is reluctant to admit. Kayyam |
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Kayyam
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hafsa
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To see what Ayat no. 6:155 means and whom it is directed to, go through it from: 146. For those who followed the Jewish Law, We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is mixed up with a bone: this in recompense for their wilful disobedience: for We are true (in Our ordinances). 147. If they accuse thee (Prophet Mohammad) of falsehood, say: "Your Lord is full of mercy all- embracing; but from people in guilt never will His wrath be turned back. 148. Those who give partners (to Allah. will say: "If Allah had wished, we should not have given partners to Him nor would our fathers; nor should we have had any taboos." So did their ancestors argue falsely, until they tasted of Our wrath. Say: "Have ye any (certain) knowledge? If so, produce it before us. Ye follow nothing but conjecture: ye do nothing but lie." 149. Say: "With Allah is the argument that reaches home: if it had been His will, He could indeed have guided you all." 150. Say: "Bring forward your witnesses to prove that Allah did forbid so and so." If they bring such witnesses, be not thou amongst them: Nor follow thou the vain desires of such as treat our signs as falsehoods, and such as believe not in the Hereafter: for they hold others as equal with their Guardian-Lord. 151. Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom. 152. And come not nigh to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he attain the age of full strength; give measure and weight with (full) justice;- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear;- whenever ye speak, speak justly, even if a near relative is concerned; and fulfil the covenant of Allah. thus doth He command you, that ye may remember. 153. Verily, this (above instructions) is My (Allah�s) way, leading straight: follow it: follow not (other) paths: they (those who argued the revelation of Allah upon Pr Mohammad) will scatter you about from His (great) path: thus doth He command you. that ye may be righteous. 154. Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those (among his followers of his time) who would do right (and not change it for a miserable benefit) , and explaining all things in detail (including the coming of Prophet Mohammad) ,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. 155. And this is a Book (Quraan) which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy: 156. Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:" 157. Or lest ye should say: "If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth Allah.s signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away. 158. Are they (thy unbelievers) waiting to see if the angels come to them, or thy Lord (Himself), or certain of the signs of thy Lord! the day that certain of the signs of thy Lord do come, no good will it do to a soul to believe in them then if it believed not before nor earned righteousness through its faith. Say: "Wait ye: we too are waiting." Similarly I gave the reference of previous Ayaat 46:12 to explain it in previous post.
As for your saying �It is established by Egyptian history that Nefure Hatshepsut was the one who adopted Moses and she was not married at that Time�� we cannot agree at all as the �establishment� is valid only through Quraan, nothing short of that. �egyptian history� is especially known for its intrigues and politics, rulers and �their� historians, caves after caves, mysteries after mysteries!!
You have got in a habit of �one down, more to go� sort of things. What has made you so much an enemy of Islam ?? are you like this just because you�re a jew or has some incident happened in your life. After all when a person is at peace with himself, he doesn�t get so aggressive towards people of other faith. I know of many contradictions in others� books for example, but I would probably never go about going to Christian, jewish or others� websites and pick faults in their holy books. And focus so much energy and time on that too. Why?
For those who ill-suggested Hazrat Hajira p.b.u.h, the mother of Prophet Ismaeel pbuh and wife of Prophet Ibraheem pbuh, should refer to the Ayat in Quran:
024.023 Lo! as for those who traduce virtuous, believing women (who are) unaware, cursed are they in the world and the Hereafter. Theirs will be an awful doom
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