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Sura 4:82 A Challenge
for Islam. Posts 742. Views 6597.
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Starjade
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13. - Do you remember the evil Persian Haman who conspired to kill all the Jews during the time of Esther in the Babylonian captivity (about 500 BC). In the Koran, Muhammad incorrectly taught that this wicked man Haman was the prime minister of the Egyptian Pharaoh (Firon) in Moses' time (1450 BC). See Suras 28:4-6, 28:38, 29:39, 40:23-24,and 40:36-37. hafsa you said: Hamaan was an ally or a minister working under of Firon and is mentioned as: 040.023
And verily We sent Moses with Our revelations and a clear warrant Most scholars say Qaroon was Moses� father�s brother�s son (cousin). Hazrat Moosa�s father�s name was Imran Bin Qabees and Qaroon�s father�s name was Yasher Bin Qabees. Qaroon was a very rich man as he was a special man for Firon. Again, this cannot be compared to what someone might have remembered. Starjade says; It was an expression of speech. And not mine I add. This was an error named by another scholar. Can you prove he was the prime minister of the Egyptian Pharaoh? Esther 3:1 After these things did king Ahasuerus promote Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, and advanced him, and set his seat above all the princes that were with him. Esther 3:2 And all the king's servants, that were in the king's gate, bowed, and reverenced Haman: for the king had so commanded concerning him. But Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence. Starjade says: It is clear that even a Prime minister holds a rank below a prince. Esther 3:9 If it please the king, let it be written that they may be destroyed: and I will pay ten thousand talents of silver to the hands of those that have the charge of the business, to bring it into the king's treasuries. Esther 3:10 And the king took his ring from his hand, and gave it unto Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, the Jews' enemy. Starjade says; Just so it is remembered. Esther 3:13 And the letters were sent by posts into all the king's provinces, to destroy, to kill, and to cause to perish, all Jews, both young and old, little children and women, in one day, even upon the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, which is the month Adar, and to take the spoil of them for a prey. Esther 5:11 And Haman told them of the glory of his riches, and the multitude of his children, and all the things wherein the king had promoted him, and how he had advanced him above the princes and servants of the king. Esther 7:10 So they hanged Haman on the gallows that he had prepared for Mordecai. Then was the king's wrath pacified. Starjade says; So Haman was above princes and not a genuine ally of the King in fact the King had him hanged. So then the error is still existing in the Koran. hafsa you said: You don�t explain well. Nimrod and Hazrat Ibraheem p.b.u.h are put in one bracket of time while Hazrat Mosa (Moses) p.b.u.h, his brother Hazrat Haroon pbuh (Aaron as you may call) and Firon, Qaroon (Korah) and Hamaan are put in another. Starjade says: This error came from a Muslim who was moaning about these things and so I added the error to see what you other Muslims say about. It seems reasonable enough. These are of different Time zones. Nimrod was the son of Cush the child of Ham the son of Noah. It was the descendants of Noahs sons who built the Tower of Babel. Moses and Aaron and Mary whichever Mary that is meant to be were not alive in those days. hafsa you said: Besides many Prophets are discussed here, as it a Sura Anbia (Prophets). Starjade says: that may well be the case but they did not all live in each others lifetimes. hafsa you said: 021.048 And We verily gave Moses and Aaron the Criterion (of right and wrong) and a light and a Reminder for those who keep from evil. 021.051 And We verily gave Abraham of old his proper course, and We were Aware of him, 021.052 When he said unto his father and his folk: What are these images unto which ye pay devotion ? 021.053 They said: We found our fathers worshippers of them. 021.054 He said: Verily ye and your fathers were in plain error Starjade says: Where are Sura�s 21: 55 � 68? hafsa you said: 021.069 We said: O fire, be coolness and peace for Abraham, 021.070 And they wished to set a snare for him, but We made them the greater losers. 021.071 And We rescued him and Lot (and brought them) to the land which We have blessed for (all) peoples. 021.072 And We bestowed upon him Isaac, and Jacob as a grandson. Each of them We made righteous. 021.073 And We made them chiefs who guide by Our command, and We inspired in them the doing of good deeds and the right establishment of worship and the giving of alms, and they were worshippers of Us (alone). 021.074 And unto Lot we gave judgment and knowledge, and We delivered him from the community that did abominations. Lo! they were folk of evil, lewd. 021.075 And We brought him in unto Our mercy. Lo! he was of the righteous. 021.076 And Noah, when he cried of old, We heard his prayer and saved him and his household from the great affliction.029.039 And Korah, Pharaoh and Haman! Moses came unto them with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but they were boastful in the land. And they were not winners (in the race). hafsa you said: How and from where are you saying that Moses and flood are put together? Starjade says: You have just in your own writings placed Noah and Moses together. It appears the way the text is written gives a bad impression. Abraham and Lot then Isaac and Jacob then Noah then Pharoah and Haman then Moses. Which are not in the correct order are they. hafsa you said: Also the exact family of King Nimrood is traced back in muslim books as Nimrood bin Kan�an bin Saam bin Nooh (Noah). He is said to hold the throne of Babul, (but both not directly in Quraan) Starjade says: What Muslim books are you claiming books exist back to the Times of Abraham and Ishmael. What are those books called. The Koran was only written with its claims 1400 years or more after the Old and New Testament text was written. Are you saying other ancient manuscripts exist to verify the claims made in the Koran that did not come from idolizing Muslims. The
family line of Nimrod already exists in the Old Testament and so that
is a knowledge that was already known. And book coming along later
can copy that text into their own language. Often I hear Christians
say they have proof of Jesus because somebody living near that Time
believed the Christian tales and wrote his impressions down. It is not
proof though is it. It is just another Christian believer giving
his ten penneth worth that again stands against the laws of the Living
God. |
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Starjade
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Here is the descendant line from Noah to Nimrod. Genesis 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. Genesis 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras. Genesis 10:3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. Genesis 10:4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. Genesis 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan. Genesis 10:7 And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabtechah: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan. Genesis 10:8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. Genesis 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD. Genesis 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 15. - What about Noah's (Nuh) son? According to Sura 21:76, Noah and his family is saved from the flood, and Suras 29:15 and 37:76-77 confirms that his seed survived. But Sura 11:42-43 reports that Noah's son drowns. hafsa you said: He did not have only one son. That particular son who made fun of His making a ship and did not support him drowned. His other sons who were in the ship with their wives were Haam, Saam, and Yafis Starjade says: In Suras 21:76 it says Noah and his family were saved. Sura 37:76-77 confirms that his seed survived yet that is contradicted when it says in Sura 11:42-43 that a son of Noah drowns. Explain how Noah and his family are saved and then contradicted in not all being saved as a son drowns. It cannot be both. The fact is all the sons of Noah survived and it only claims one did not in the Koran which also contradicted other claims in the Koran. Genesis 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. Genesis 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; Genesis 9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan. Genesis 9:19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread. Genesis 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. Genesis 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras. Genesis 10:3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. Genesis 10:4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. Genesis 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. Genesis 10:6 And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan. Genesis 10:7 And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabtechah: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan. Genesis 10:8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. Genesis 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD. Genesis 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. Genesis 10:11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah, Genesis 10:12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city. Genesis 10:13 And Mizraim begat Ludim, and Anamim, and Lehabim, and Naphtuhim, Genesis 10:14 And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (out of whom came Philistim,) and Caphtorim. Genesis 10:15 And Canaan begat Sidon his first born, and Heth, Genesis 10:16 And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite, Genesis 10:17 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite, Genesis 10:18 And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite: and afterward were the families of the Canaanites spread abroad. Genesis 10:19 And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon, as thou comest to Gerar, unto Gaza; as thou goest, unto Sodom, and Gomorrah, and Admah, and Zeboim, even unto Lasha. Genesis 10:20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations. Genesis 10:21 Unto Shem also, the father of all the children of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder, even to him were children born. Genesis 10:22 The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram. Genesis 10:23 And the children of Aram; Uz, and Hul, and Gether, and Mash. Genesis 10:24 And Arphaxad begat Salah; and Salah begat Eber. Genesis 10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan. Genesis 10:26 And Joktan begat Almodad, and Sheleph, and Hazarmaveth, and Jerah, Genesis 10:27 And Hadoram, and Uzal, and Diklah, Genesis 10:28 And Obal, and Abimael, and Sheba, Genesis 10:29 And Ophir, and Havilah, and Jobab: all these were the sons of Joktan. Genesis 10:30 And their dwelling was from Mesha, as thou goest unto Sephar a mount of the east. Genesis 10:31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations. Genesis 10:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood. Genesis 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. Starjade concludes: Sura 11:42-43 reports that Noah's son drowns. Yet not according to the Old Testament Genesis. All of the Sons of Noah survived the flood and so that is an error existing only in the Koran. Where it claims one of the sons of Noah drowned.
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Starjade
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hafsa you said: Hazrat Ibraheem p.b.u.h lived with his first wife Sarah in Palestine and left with his second wife and son Hazrat Ismaeel p.b.u.h for Macca upon the instruction of Allah. He left them and came back to them after some time, whereby he rebuilt Kaaba with his son, and also the event of sacrifice took place. I bet you know. Starjade says; Abraham no doubt lived in a lot of places. To say he built the Kaaba is odd as that was the place where everyone gave worship to many false gods and specifically the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah. Now one would think Abraham would have abolished such worship had he appeared there however throughout Mesopotamia they gave their worship to false Gods which was why the Kaaba was built. To worship those false gods specifically the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah of which Muhammad himself as a child gave his worship to. It just does not add up to any form of sense. How can you claim Abraham built the Kabba for his living God when that was the place where people worshipped false Gods and specifically the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah. I see no evidence to your claim that Abraham left Sarah to live with Hagar and Ishmael. Abraham lived in Canaan unto the place of Sichem unto the plains of Moreh. Of course Abraham did travel about a lot. Genesis 13:18 Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD. Genesis 23:2 And Sarah died in Kirjatharba; the same is Hebron in the land of Canaan: and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah, and to weep for her. Genesis 35:27 And Jacob came unto Isaac his father unto Mamre, unto the city of Arbah, which is Hebron, where Abraham and Isaac sojourned. Starjade says: In 13:18 it says Abraham built an alter in Hebron. Is the Kabba in Hebron? Genesis 12:6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land. Genesis 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. Genesis 12:8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD. Starjade says: So this was the place where Abraham was said to have built the alter to the living God. Are you saying the Kaaba is this place. If so then that place is clearly stated to be in Hebron. The Alter was built long before that tale of sacrifice of the son of Abraham. As for the sacrifice the Old Testament claims that was Isaac not Ishmael and that was offered for sacrifice and the living God commanded Abraham to travel out to the land of Moriah and offer him up for sacrifice on one of the Mountains the living God would point out. Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Genesis 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. Genesis 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. Genesis 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. Genesis 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. Genesis 22:9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. Genesis 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. Genesis 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. Did you know by the way that according to the Koran. Palestine was said to be the promised land that God promised to Moses and it belongs to the Jews. Muslims who aid Palestine against the invasion of Israelites are in fact standing against what are said to be Gods wishes in the Koran. Interesting dilemma that isn�t it. It is another curiosity that when I approached the Israelites with details of an ever nearing future apocalypse with a view to an Exodus. I advised that they sell the lands of Israel for larger land in Africa where I wanted them to build the Third Temple. A Biosphere that would have to live in whiles they awaited for the new land that I have promised them. They did not like my apocalyptic plans which also included them paying the tax they owe to the living God which no doubt they have not saved. If a Jew is in debt they must work for free until that debt is paid. That is how I was going to get a free workforce to build that apocalyptic city. Starjade concludes: Clearly the Koran has many errors in it and so is established by the Sura 4:82 to not be a book that came from the Living God. So its words are not gospel truth. I see no evidence in the Old Testament to even suggest that Abraham went to Mecca whereby he built the Kaaba with his son Ishmael in fact in that place the inhabitants of that region were involved in the worship of many false Gods and especially of the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah. How do you explain that away.? They worshipped the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah at the Kabba. They did not give any worship there to the living God of Abraham. There is no statements in the Old Testament to support your claims even more so when it is made clear that Hagar and Ishmael were cast out into the wilderness by Abraham. Genesis 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. Starjade says: Mind you I hold the things said in Genesis with a pinch of salt. I cannot see any father just casting his wife and children away let alone holding one up for sacrifice. I always consider those tales as a form of moral guidance and a look at this loyalty thing. I have had a personal encounter with the living God and trust me the living God does not need blood sacrifices. Of course long ago that sort of thing was normal to those ritualistic people. So they would add such yackle into their writings. It seems clear the whole Koran copy cat stealing those tales of the Old Testament but this Time around they claim it was all reversed and it was Ishmael all along not not Isaac. Tsk Tsk Tsk�..Yet of course the Old Testament continues with the life of the descendants of Isaac mainly. Not a great deal was said about Ishmael. How curious. Can you explain then why it is they worship the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah at the Kabba along with many false Gods, isnt that a sign something is odd and untrue with your statement. ? How did that pagan moon god thing start then. Starjade comment. Do not be dejected however for the Living God made Covenants with Abraham and his seed. It is known at a Time in the future the Living God said he would raise up a Prophet who would gather up all the descendants of Abraham. That includes the descendants of Ishmael even though they as is the case of the descendants of Isaac are not in my views worthy. Still all is not yet lost. But be aware I am Judging you all.
Blasphemy carries a death sentence a Death by Stoning and I am Prophet
who has seen a world wide apocalypse of earthquakes and I can stone
entire continents to their deaths.
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Starjade
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17. - Sura 9:30 mistakenly claims that the Jews believed that Ezra was the Son of God, the Messiah, just as Christians claim for Jesus. No Jews have ever believed this. hafsa you said: One must find that out from jews themselves, and that too those who know exactly and can tell correctly about past. How this happened is as under: When Amalqa came into power, overthrew the Jews killing their scholars, H. Uzair pbuh cried a lot. He was given an indication to go on a particular stream and eat whatever was given to him. When he did, he was given papers that he ate. When he came back to people he spoke Torah. They brought some old scriptures of it from caves and compared it to what he was saying. As it was identical, some of them started believing he was God�s son. Starjade says: I personally do not believe in such fanciful tales. Where are the witness Testimonies. I have had a bellyful of writers claiming this and that without any evidence. The Jews never believed in Jesus or Muhammad and so a person has to have proof to convince them in such a way that those Jews are not in any position but to accept such a thing is true. That is by the way done by the laws of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15. Anyways go ask a Jew if they believe Ezra is the son of God. They will say no.
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Starjade
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18. - Sura 6:74, says Abraham father's name was Azar. The Bible says it was Terah (Genesis 11:27). How can Muhammad claim he verified the Torah which came first as true, yet differ with the facts in the Torah? hafsa you said: The Quraan is written by Allah. If people make mistakes, which they do over time, Allah corrects them. Here the name of Ibrahim�s father was not necessary to give. However it is mentioned for the above reason only. �Muhammad claim he verified the Torah�, but the real divine part. Starjade says: Genesis 11:27 Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran begat Lot. So then it is self conclusive. The father of Abraham in the Old Testament says Terah Starjade says: The many errors found in the Koran which are staggering in their amounts establish by the Sura 4:82 that the Koran did not come from God as Muhammad has claimed. That makes Muhammad presumptuous to think he could speak in Gods name. The Old Testament was already written thousands of years before Muhammad was even born. So Muhammad cannot verify the Old Testament and Deuteronomy law Ch 19 v 15 certainly does not verify the claims of Muhammad. Starjade
concludes and it is a well known fact that Allah meaning the Supreme
God which was in fact during those days of Muhammad when he was a child
the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah. Muhammad and his family used
to give their worship to that pagan moon god then later Muhammad came
back and he got rid of the name Hubal al�ilah and just shortened al�ilah
to Allah. The moon by the way is just a stone in space.
If you doubt me then tap Hubal al�ilah into your search engine.
It will surprise you unless you already know about that. |
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Starjade
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19. - Islam says it was Ishmael that was nearly sacrificed on the mountain rather than Isaac as both the Torah and Christian Gospels say. Islam says that Hagar was the legitimate wife (and not a concubine) of Abraham, rather than Sarah; so Ishmael was the heir of Abraham. But wait! Muhammad had already attested to the Bible and Torah as being correct. Then why these huge errors? Of note: After Muhammad's death, the Meccans (Waraquah) changed the name Isaac in Suras 2:125 and 127 for the name Ishmael and invented the story about Abraham taking Ishmael to their black rock in Mecca, so that pilgrims would continue to visit Mecca. hafsa you said: Remember: the real divine part of the divine books. Not inclusive of the errors and interjections of people with vested interests before and after our Prophet Mohammad (SalAllaho Alehe Wassalam.). Also there was no human amendment in Quran�s text after the physical demise of our Prophet (s.a.w), nor could it be. Starjade says: The Sura 4:82 of the Koran says Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein. Trust me I have shown hundreds of errors to Muslims over the years long before I came to this forum and Muslims have not been able to give accounts as to why those errors and discrepancies exist in the Koran. Already here in this forum errors are seen to exist in the Koran and that is the admission and the proof that the Koran did not come from God and is not divine and not a God given authority to speak but is in fact presumptuous to think it could speak in Gods name. In fact as everyone knows Allah of the Muslims is the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah and not the living God of Abraham. The Old Testament says it was Isaac who was the one who was offered to sacrifice. It is surely the original source of that data. After all the Koran from today�s date is only about 1400 years or so old whiles the Old Testament is thousands of years old. Written long before the Koran. And I heard tales of how the mighty men of Kedar fought against Islam and the tribes of Kedar were the descendants of the second born of Ishmael. If Abraham and Ishmael had built the Kabba to worship the living God of Abraham then why would the sons of Ishmael war against Islam and be slaughtered and why was there the worship of pagan the moon god Hubal al�ilah which Muhammad worshipped as a child and shortened the name to Allah. Which simply means the supreme God which to those pagan worshippers was still the moon god Hubal al�illah. It does all sound very odd and inexplicable. Sarah did give her handmaiden Hagar to Abraham to be his wife. One might justifiably argue Ishmael was the rightful heir. In my view he was of course as he was the first born. However be in Judgment also that Sarah was Abrahams first wife of whom he loved who only gave up her handmaiden Hager to be the wife of Abraham as a breeder because Sarah could not bear children. When she did bear children that was the child of love between the happily married couple. Whiles Hagar was the servant wife just as a breeder and not from love relationship. So as Sarah is the head of that family as the wife then she would consider her offspring to take precedent over the child of the slave wife. I am not saying this is fair or right yet must also come into considerations. Being cast out into the wilderness however would create a great anger and bitterness. Plus this brag is of course directly leading up to the claims of Muhammad and his being a descendant of Ishmael in an attempt to give some form of authenticity to Muhammad�s claims that he was the long awaited Deuteronomy Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. A claim I add that is easily disproved. What evidence exists that can prove Muhammad tried to sacrifice Ishmael. And when did this new claimed evidence come to light. When were Muslims told it was Ishmael who was put up for sacrifice. Was it Muhammad who said these things. After all when Muhammad was a child he was giving worship with his family to the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah. So what would he know. So where did this claim originate from.? Furthermore there are even today different text of the Koran go ask the Sunny Muslims and the Shiite Muslims who follow different text which is their arguments of that segregation of Muslims. The Koran was not written during the Times of Muhammad but was writ long after he was dead and several Korans were created and argued over. I can supply details but that would be a lot of text and already I have written plenty. Furthermore the Koran is not pure Arabic as it is also claimed. Furthermore, The Sura 4:82 admits if errors are found in the Koran then that is proof that the Koran did not come from God and that shows Muhammad was presumptuous to think he could speak in Gods name. Furthermore according to the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 you need two or three actual witnesses to prove a thing is true. Muhammad has no witnesses to his claims and why not show us all what his actual Prophecies were then. I asked an Islamic scholar who is an expert on Islam and several other religions as well. What was Muhammad�s Revelations of the End of Times. After an unusual silence. He replied back and said Muhammad said it would grow very dark.
Starjade says:
Before you claim a person is a Prophet then you should be able to prove
that. For if you claim them to be a Prophet from God and they
are not. Then that is blasphemy. |
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Starjade
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hafsa you said: The Divine Will of Allah can however be to first bring people to one level and later to the next. In fact if a human had written this book, with a plot of claiming false prophethood, he would have avoided this. But Allah does as He wishes. Starjade says: After the battle of Al Yamamah in 633 Umar inb al Khattab, who later became the second Caliph, he said to the first Caliph Abu Bakir, that because of the loss in that battle they were in danger of losing Muhammad�s proclamations as they were mainly enshrined in their memories. Aby Bakr recognised the danger and entrusted the task of writing out the Koran to Zayd ibn Thabit, who was the chief scribe that Muhammad had frequently dictated to during his lifetime. A final authorized text was prepared and completed in 651 during the Time of Uthman the third Caliph. This has remained the text of the Koran in use ever since.
Starjade says; Muslims brag the Koran which is proven to not come from the living God is in fact the final revelations and muslims always brag that the Koran is perfect. The Koran is far from perfect and the living God does not make mistakes. There have been several differently worded Korans not just one. The data for that evidence is long and I have already writ a lot of text. I am just mentioning it here. And be sure the text of the Koran has been changed often regarding this and that until that final authorized text was prepared and completed in 651 during the Time of Uthman the third Caliph.
hafsa you said: Had it not been divine, then the revelations would not have continued for 23 years without inconsistency. If I write a book, I will try to finish it as soon as possible or the text will loose the constancy of purpose or spirit. Also the person Warqah Bin Nofil had died long before Mohammad (S.A.W).
Starjade says: Did the Sura 4:82 just fly past your head. The Koran has many errors in its text including 11 Chapters glorifying Jesus as being the Prophet that Jesus is claiming himself to being because the very Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to being is that Deuteronomy Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up which is why they called jesus the King of the Jews.
Now how can that be when the very Prophet that Muhammad proclaims himself to being as you all know is that same Deuteronomy Prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up. Which is why Muslims call Muhammad the Prophet to the Nation.
Talk about copy catting that it is unbelievable. And the Koran continued in its isolated Islamic world by the threat of follow Islam or you will die and by idolizers.
I am writing a book myself and be sure many of these Revelations are within its text. I am in no rush as it is not that important to me. It will be done when it is done.
You Muslims can make a big fuss about it if you want but be very careful what you say for in that public forum I will eat you all for breakfast. Already your Imams are afraid of me.
Muhammad did not write any book and he could not recall half of what he said. That is why the Koran has different versions that differ from each other.
As for old Waraqa he was alive and well and it is a matter of Islamic history it is said that after the incident in the cave this event caused Muhammad to tremble with such fear that he ran back to his wife, his wife tried to soothe him down but Muhammad was very upset, so they both went to a cousin of Muhammad�s wife. He was called Waraqa bin Nawful bin Asad al-uzza, apparently Waraqa was a blind old man who had embraced Christianity in the pre Islamic period. When Muhammad told Waraqa what had happened in the cave, Waraqa said that was the Angel Gabriel who is entrusted with the divine secrets that Allah had sent to Moses.
Now come on old Waraqa died not long after it is claimed. But he was very much alive and well in the days of Muhammad.
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hafsa you said: Absolutely wrong. The old and new Testaments that Jews and Christians have, contain not only the word of God that were revealed upon the Prophets, but also the words of men written long after, and continuously modified by every kind of person through ages. Hence, it is far from what Allah verified. Even at the time when Quran was revealed changes were present.
Starjade says: You are only part right. The New Testament is not valid and is of Roman Christian invention. Jesus is a fraud and the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 establishes that is a fact. The law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 is a law brought down by Moses from the living God and that is then the actual word of the living God.
Again I draw your attention to statements you make. And those found in the Koran.
Sura 5:68 - Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law (Torah), the Gospel (Injeel), and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."
Sura 29:46 Muslims are told by Allah, not to question the authority of the scriptures of the Christians, saying, "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one;
Suras 6:34, 6:115, 10:64 and 50:28,29 clearly says to Muslims, "No change can there be in the words of Allah" and that Allah cannot alter (or abrogate) his words." So the Torah and Christian Gospels are correct, because Allah did verify this fact -- this clearly makes the Muslim Qur'an false; because it contradicts Allah.
- Sura 2:87 - And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent apostles after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit,
- Sura 3:48 - And He (Isa/Jesus) will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat (Torah) and the Injeel (Christian Gospel).
- Sura 3:50 - And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat (Torah) and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden t you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.
- Sura 5:44 - "Surely We revealed the Taurat (Torah/Bible Old Testament) in which was guidance and light", with it the prophets who submitted themselves....
- Sura 5:46 - And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat (Jewish Torah) and We gave him the Injeel (Christian Gospels) in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).
Sura 5.68 - Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord;
- Sura 6.154: Again, We gave the Book (Torah) to Musa to complete (Our blessings) on him who would do good (to others), and making plain all things and a guidance and a mercy, so that they should believe in the meeting of their Lord.
- Sura 6.155: And this (Torah) is a Book We have revealed, blessed; therefore follow it and guard (against evil) that mercy may be shown to you.
- Sura 29:46 "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one;
- Sura 32:23 - And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in
doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the
children of Israel.
- Sura 46:12 we are told.... "And before it the Book of Musa (Moses) (Torah) was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good......" Muslims have no choice but to believe in the Christian Bible and the Apostles who wrote it. The Qur'an forbids anyone, on pain of shameful punishment, from making distinctions between the authority of the apostles and prophets of God, or from choosing between God's words. No one is permitted to believe in part and reject a part. Those who presume to do so, it says, are infidels in reality (Suras 4:150-152; 2:89; 42:13-15; 29:46-47).
In Sura 46:12 we are told.... "Yet before it there was the Book of Moses (Torah/Old Testement) which was an authority, and a mercy. This (the Qur'an) is the Book confirming it in the Arabic tongue....."
Starjade says; Now come along now hafsa you yourself in your own statements are contradicting Allahs words. Even you admit (hafsa quote) The old and new Testaments that Jews and Christians have, contain not only the word of God that were revealed upon the Prophets, but
hafsa you said: And it was not that we were supposed to believe these books entirely. It is metaphorical in a sense that we�d have believed them had they been accurate, as the old reference of what God demanded people of that time. However God did not take charge of saving them from changes as He has for Quraan. The reason is that this is the ultimate message to mankind.
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Starjade says: {Pay attention!} I am the Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet that the living God promised Moses he would raise up. This can be established by the Deuteronomy Law Ch 19 v 15. A law brought down by Moses from the living God and is therefore the actual word of the living God of Moses.
I have already named those witnesses to the Jews descendants of Isaac when I approached them in 1995 with details of a future apocalypse with a view to an Exodus of all Jews the descendants of Abraham from the four corners of the globe. And there are more than four witnesses to that claim so it is already established by Deuteronomy�s religious law that I am not guilty of any Crime of Iniquity or Sin when I make that statement. I have not ever made any secret to anyone as to who it is I can be established by religious law to be. I can and do back my mouth up. All the claims of the false pretenders to my Throne have already bitten the dust.
I am the Ch 18 v 15/18 Deuteronomy Doomsday Prophet and I alone carry the ultimate apocalyptic knowledge and message from the Living God to Mankind. To me the living God has said you should hearken.
You are not speaking with any ordinary man. So save your brags for your fellow idolizers. I know better. I am that very specific long awaited Ch 18 v 15/18 Deuteronomy Doomsday prophet that you have all been bragging Jesus and Muhammad to be. This is a serious point to note whiles you are making the errors you are making that just seems to be escaping you all in your thoughts whiles you glorify your false Prophets.
You are the wise not to believe books entirely. In front of your face under Islamic law and by the Sura 4:82 I have already shown you that the Koran did not come from God and that Muhammad and Jesus are both frauds. I can show you proof that the Koran has been changed and to this day still different worded Korans exist. Just because you have been led to believe something is true that does not make what you believe to be a fact.
hafsa you said: We are only to believe that in them is likely there is some part which may be the word of God. That we respect. The sources through which that can be verified are 1. Glorious Quraan 2. Sahih Hadeeth.
Starjade
says: Whiles you say glorious you indulge in idolization.
How is deception glorious. The Koran has been established by the
Sura 4:82 to not come from God. This is a proven fact and I have
proven that by showing you many errors and discrepancies that exist
in the Koran. The New Testament is also a Fraud so how do you
account for 11 Chapters of the Koran glorifying Jesus. Muhammad
and Jesus are both claiming they are that Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18
prophet that god promised Moses he would raise up even though the living
God only promised to raise up only one Prophet. How do you account
for that then. |
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hafsa you said: The Prophet s.a.w kept his face towards Jerusalum (in Madina) which was the headquater of Bani Israel, who were given Imamat (leadership). After a while this status was taken from them and given to Prophet Mohammad s.a.w indicating that he is the Imam for both Bani Israel and Bani Ismael, just like their forefather Ibrahim, whose Qibla was Kabatullah of Mecca.
The people with iman were thereby checked, that they obeyed Allah�s Prophet without prejudice. Also weather the idols were there or not is irrelevant as then people were not saying prayers in Kaaba itself, and did whatever was necessary at that time as per Allah�s command.
Starjade says: The Kabba was full of Idols as they worshipped many pagan false gods there and Muhammad went there as a child to worship those false gods. So it does matter. The supreme god hubal al�ilah was then the main pagan god worshipped at the Kabba and the crescent moon and the three stars is a representation of Hubal al�ilah and his daughters said to be the stars. They did not worship the living God of Abraham and Moses but gave their worship the Moon-god and his daughters al-Uzza, al-Lat and Manat. So it does matter and worship of these pagan moon gods was rife in the Kabba.
Everywhere in the ancient world, the symbol of the crescent moon can be found on seal impressions, steles, pottery, amulets, clay tablets, cylinders, weights, earrings, necklaces, wall murals, etc. In Tell-el-Obeid, a copper calf was found with a crescent moon on its forehead. An idol with the body of a bull and the head of man has a crescent moon inlaid on its forehead with shells. In Ur, the Stela of Ur-Nammu has the crescent symbol placed at the top of the register of gods because the Moon-god was the head of the gods. Even bread was baked in the form of a crescent as an act of devotion to the Moon-god. The Ur of the Chaldees was so devoted to the Moon-god that it was sometimes called Nannar in tablets from that time period. A temple of the Moon-god has been excavated in Ur by Sir Leonard Woolley. He dug up many examples of moon worship in Ur and these are displayed in the British Museum to this day.
Many scholars have also noticed that the Moon-god's name "Sin" is a part of such Arabic words as "Sinai," the "wilderness of Sin," etc. When the popularity of the Moon-god waned elsewhere, the Arabs remained true to their conviction that the Moon-god was the greatest of all gods. While they worshipped 360 gods at the Kabba in Mecca, the Moon-god was the chief deity. Mecca was in fact built as a shrine for the Moon-god. This is what made it the most sacred site of Arabian paganism. In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidha, that she had uncovered a temple of the Moon-god in southern Arabia. The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than twenty-one inscriptions with the name Sin were found in this temple.
"The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God." The Moon-god was called al-ilah, i.e. the god, which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times. The pagan Arabs even used Allah in the names they gave to their children. For example, both Muhammad's father and uncle had Allah as part of their names.The fact that they were given such names by their pagan parents proves that Allah was the title for the Moon-god even in Muhammad's day. Ilah, became Al-Ilah, The God, or Allah, the Supreme Being."
The Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc. This is what you muslims still do to this day. Many Muslims are not aware they give their worship to the moon god but then I have met many who knew they were.
Muhammad was not the Deuteronomy Prophet of Israel to this day no Jew other than the descendants of Ishmael consider Muhammad to be that Deuteronomy Prophet and they are going against Deuteronomy law which is the word of God and a thing called facts. They also go against the words of the Koran which also prove Muhammad is not the Deuteronomy Prophet he has claimed himself as being as the Sura 4:82 of the Koran shows. Or have you missed all these errors that exist in the Koran. And
do not forget when you have chewed upon these lists of errors here then
you have to face the 21 errors that Starjade has pointed out exist in
the Koran and be sure Muslims dare not face those Revelations. |
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hafsa you said:
Starjade trys to quote Ayaat of Quraan sounding or meaning different:
Sura 5:68 - Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law (Torah), the Gospel (Injeel), and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."
it is:
005.068 Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk
Starjade says: Thank you for you newly worded quotes. I got mine from an Islamic scholar who has converted from islam. It is not our fault if you Muslims cannot keep to exacting quotes when you give translations it is. And really it still says the same thing doesn�t it.
Stating that Muslims must accept the Old and New Testaments. hahaha Bad idea that as Jesus is established as being a fraud by the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 and the statements off Mathew Luke Mark and John are hearsay Testimonies not acceptable by Deuteronomy law. Oh and Jesus claimed he was that Deuteronomy Prophet over 1000 years before Muhammad did. So the Koran says this and contradicts itself with that. I shall keep your quotes however and be sure they still stand against you. I prefer the other quotes.
hafsa you said: This Ayat refers to Jews and Christians and some others on whom revelations had come and who are now without a base. One has to start reading some 15 Ayaat before this one to really get to the point.
Sura 29:46 Muslims are told by Allah, not to question the authority of the scriptures of the Christians, saying, "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; it is :
029.046 And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender.
Starjade says: But your God is the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah and not the living God of Abraham and of Moses and of Starjade. ?
hafsa you said: Clearly guiding that until one has to face those who are set to do wrong, one must politely discuss the agreements not the disagreements.
Starjade says: hahaha you want to hear some of the conversations I have had with some angry Muslims. My Revelations can be such a bitter reality pill for them to swallow.
- Sura 5:44 - "Surely We revealed the Taurat (Torah/Bible Old Testament) in which was guidance and light", with it the prophets who submitted themselves....
- Sura 5:46 - And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat (Jewish Torah) and We gave him the Injeel (Christian Gospels) in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).
- Sura 46:12 we are told.... "And before it the Book of Musa (Moses) (Torah) was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it,the real one) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good......"
hafsa you said: it has to be read in the context:
Starjade says: These quotes from the Koran came from an Islamic scholar who has converted from islam and so he knows just as much as you. I have no doubt he was reading and quoting in context. I have been a tad busy so I have yet to read more of his enlightening writings.
hafsa you said: - 046.008 Or say they: He hath invented it ? Say (O Muhammad): If I have invented it, still ye have no power to support me against Allah. He is Best Aware of what ye say among yourselves concerning it. He sufficeth for a witness between me and you. And -
- He is the Forgiving,
the Merciful.
- - 046.011 And those who disbelieve say of those who believe: If it had been (any) good, they would not have been before us in attaining it. And since they will not be guided by it, they say: This is an ancient lie;
-
hafsa you said: Hence what is being said is quite different from what you are trying to imply.
Starjade says: I got those statements from another who is an Islamic scholar so they are his quotations. He has a list of errors in the Koran that even I did not have. I have them now of course. He is also an Ex Muslim who converted away from Islam. I was making a point not needing to imply anything as Islam bit the Dust when it faced me a long long Time ago. To this day Islam is still defenseless as can be seen by the many errors that exist in the Koran and the word of the Sura 4:82. And the word of the actual Deuteronomy Doomsday prophet Starjade.
I could easily take another approach after all the law of Deuteronomy was brought down by Moses from the living God and is therefore the actual word of the living God. Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 is a law that determines matters of the truth regarding crimes of iniquity and sin. You need two or three witness Testimonies to prove a thing is true and Muhammad just has no witnesses to his claims and so if accused of Blasphemy then he would be found guilty of that crime under the Deuteronomy laws of the living God. .
hafsa you said: Muslims have no choice but to believe in the Christian Bible and the Apostles who wrote it (wrong) .
Starjade says: It is not wrong. Without the Old and New Testaments your Muhammad has no claims of Prophet hood to make. He uses the Old Testament to make his claims. Using Deuteronomy and Moses and Isaiah without which you would have no religion and nothing to claim. You would have nothing written in the Koran for its text is full of copy catted Old and New Testaments. Muslims have no choice but to accept the Old Testament as well as the New for that is what the Koran is based upon. Surely you must have noticed.
hafsa you said: The Qur'an forbids anyone (even you), on pain of shameful punishment, from making distinctions between the authority (we�d say honesty) of the apostles and prophets of God, or from choosing between God's (actual) words. No one is permitted to believe in part and reject a part (of the confirmed truth as required).
Starjade says: Actually the Sura 4:82 challenge is open to all Muslims and non Muslims and it says Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein. The Challenge of the Koran is to find just one error in the Koran to prove that it did not come from God.
The Challenge Muslims gave to me was to find just one error in the Koran. On that very same day Islam bit the dust. So the Koran invites people to find any error in its pages. So it is just Islamic propaganda saying do not go looking under the threat of something bad happening. The Sura 4:82 challenge of the Koran says something different than some threatening idolizing Muslim.
Muslims goaded me with this Sura 4:82 challenge in the Koran in the misguided belief that no errors exist. Yet as can be seen hundreds of errors exist in the Koran and the Sura 4:82 of the Koran then admits because of those errors in the Koran that is the proof that the Koran does not come from God and that shows deceptions in the words of Muhammad.
Furthermore, I remind you that in the very beginnings I invoked and Islamic law on the Islamic congregations.
This law in Islam says if you know something that is not true then you must be unafraid and stand up and state it. The matter will then be discussed and whatever is found to be true must be accepted as being true and whatever is found to be false must be rejected as being false.
I only speak about the religion of Islam with the followers of Islam under that Islamic law and by the agreements of Muslims Islamic scholars who pointed that Islamic law out to me. And who have challenged me to challenge Islam with my Revelations.
So Islamic law gives everyone a right to speak and investigate the claims of the Koran just as the Challenge of the Sura 4:82 does and so your belief that No one is permitted to believe in part and reject a part of the Koran is mistaken by your Islamic propaganda and is clearly untrue.
Furthermore, unless you can discount all the errors that I have pointed out exist in the Koran many of which I have not even shown you. Then under Islamic law you must reject what is not true which means you must convert from islam because Islamic law demands that you do. And if you do not then you are not a real Muslim you are an idolizer.
It is then your choice fully aware of the facts that you continue to worship the proverbial stone. And be sure the moon is a stone in space and Hubal al�ilah is the moon god of the muslims.
Shirk if you choose but realize Islam is powerless and Islamic law binds all you muslims. How can a Muslims stand against Islamic law and how can a muslim be seen to ignore the words of the Koran especially the Sura 4:82 challenge of the Koran of which Muslims are the ones issuing those challenges. I find it is fated and most funny that Muslims are the ones who challenged me to challenge Islam and they goaded and goaded me until I accepted their challenge to challenge Islam. Then on that very day over 1000 Muslims bit the dust unable to defend the Koran or the words of Muhammad and they then shirked by deceptions.
Be advised all Muslims and all Christians and all Jews. Never underestimate the Deuteronomy Doomsday Prophet Starjade. I have the living God on my side along with Deuteronomy law and Islamic law and the Sura 4:82 of the Koran. Be sure you are all always going to bite the dust. So go bring your religious leaders and beg them to help and watch as they also bite the dust.
None of you have any power or Revelations and yet look at the Revelations I have already given. Pure religious gold the essence of enlightenment. I have a very serious point to make. That is why I challenge Islam and Christianity and even the blasphemous Jews. Your claims of not being allowed to discuss or dispute these matters are not true at all and I expect your religious leaders to know better.
Starjade says: Of course The Old Testament is the authority and that will bring you all back to the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 which establishes Jesus and Muhammad as being frauds pretenders to my Throne and they are very presumptuous to think they could speak in Gods name....
Starjade says: It is you who needs a new book. Whereas I am in my fields of knowledge.
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Starjade says: What you need is a miracle. You are debating the authenticity of the Koran and the claims of Muhammad with the established by the Deuteronomy Law Ch 19 v 15 Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet Starjade and trust me Islam is powerless against me and my God given Revelations. That is why I am the Challenger and why Islam bites the Dust.
hafsa you said: 046.010 Bethink you: If it is from Allah and ye disbelieve therein, and a witness of the Children of Israel hath already testified to the like thereof and hath believed,
Starjade says; The Children may believe in Santa Claus but the Adults are a different matter. Allah worshipped by Mid Eastern Muslims is the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah. The word Al�ilah means supreme God and yet the supreme god of those mid eastern people was the pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah. The Jews do not accept Muhammad or Jesus as being that Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet. So for you to say they do is deception. The jews are correct of course as can be seen and proven by the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15. You see you need two or three witnesses to make those claims come true and Jesus and Muhammad have no witnesses.
hafsa you said: and ye are too proud (what plight is yours) ? Lo! Allah guideth not wrong-doing folk.
Starjade says: A pagan moon God could not guide a bunch of sheep. Yet still sheep do follow that pagan moon god Hubal al�ilah and so I contradict myself. But I don�t mind. I have heard tales of Muhammad and his activities. It did not show Muhammad in a good light. And the lowest legal age for sex and marriage for a Jew is 12 years old even in those Times and yet Muhammad married a 6 years old and was having sexual relations with her when she was 9 yrs old. And is that something you have arranged for your own children at such a young age to do.? Do you consider that actually morally correct. Spare me the details for you and I must have a different sense of morality of what is right and what is wrong.
You have heard my claims of being a Prophet from God. All established I add by Deuteronomy law Ch 19 v 15. So that Deuteronomy law states I am a real genuine Prophet from the living God who states without any fear of dispute that Muhammad and Jesus are both frauds. So then isn�t it blasphemy for those who are presumptuous to think they could speak in Gods name to call themselves Gods Prophets. And you speak of pagan moon gods and wrong doing folk as if you were in Judgment when in fact it is you who is being judged.
You
are the one who is too proud. You are the idolizer of false Prophets
and you were here at this Time unable to defend the Koran from my Revelations.
Neither can your Imams so why not go tap them on their shoulder and
tell them that I can and will eat them for breakfast if ever they stand
in my way. |
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Sandy you said: In response to the above objection of Starjade; hafsa wrote: Remember: the real divine part of the divine books. Not inclusive of the errors and interjections of people with vested interests before and after our Prophet Mohammad (SalAllaho Alehe Wassalam.). Also there was no human amendment in Quran�s text after the physical demise of our Prophet (s.a.w), nor could it be.
Starjade says: Well hello there Sandy. As a matter of fact the collection of the Koran was a problem for despite what many said few memorized the text of Muhammad and several varying copies of the worded differently Koran are in existence.
Briefly Uthman sent out one copy of the newly established original to every country and issued orders that every differing compilation or script of the Quran should be burnt. (Mishkat vol.III p.708). Many Muslims refused. I have long statements of the many versions of the Koran all worded differently. The text is long and so I am not putting it all down here. However the Koran was amended and even today different versions of the Koran do exist. In fact just recently I was reading how this has caused the rifts between Sunny and Shiite Muslims as their Korans differ. So in brief and in fact there has been much human amendment in fact and the Koran was writ by humans not by God. The Sura 4:82 and these many errors found to exist in the Koran is proof the Koran does not come from God no matter how holy you idolizers make its pages.
Sandy you said: I hope this answer satisfy Starjade. If not, I would like to draw Starjade's attention to the following: Who was the son whom the Prophet Abraham (pbuh) had got ready to offer as a sacrifice, and who had willingly offered himself to be slaughtered as a sacrifice?
Starjade says; No it was not a satisfactory answer. In fact it was an odd thing to say. No matter though. The Old Testament states it was Isaac was the one offered up for sacrifice.
Genesis 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. Genesis 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. Genesis 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. Genesis 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. Genesis 22:9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. Genesis 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. Genesis 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. Genesis 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Sandy you said: The first answer to this question is given by the Bible; and it is this: And it came to pass after these things, that G-d did prove Abraham, and said unto him: 'Abraham'; and he said: 'Here am I.' And He said: 'Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.' (Gen. 22: 1-2). (http://www.breslov.com/bible/Genesis22.htm#1)
Starjade says; Ooops sorry Sandy. I copy cut and paste to word for easier replying and your follow up statement just appeared on the screen. Seems we both bring forwards actual biblical text. Thankyou for highlighting the points you are making.
Sandy you said: In this statement, on the one hand, it is being said that God had asked for the offering of the Prophet Isaac (pbuh), and on the other, that he was Prophet Abraham's (pbuh) only son, whereas the Bible itself, at other places, conclusively states that the Prophet Isaac was not the only son of the Prophet Abraham (pbuh).
Starjade says: I just love it when people are diligent. Well noticed Sandy. And I add that Abraham had more sons than just Ishmael and Isaac.
Genesis 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Starjade says: Of course the Old Testament Genesis claim is that this only son with Abraham at that Time was Isaac. Hagar and Ishmael had already been cast out. So there was only Isaac left. Everyone knew including the living God that Abraham has sired two children at that Time. But at that Time the Old Testament records Ishmael had been cruelly cast away with his mother into the wilderness. Tsk Tsk Tsk.
Genesis 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
Sandy you said: Now consider the following statements of the Bible: "Now Sarai, Abram's wife bore him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abraham, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abraham hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai Abraham's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abraham had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her husband Abram to be his wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived." (Gen .16: 1-4)
Starjade says: Sheeesh I hated the blue text it looks better now it is between some other colours. My eyes are battered already from being in front of a computers screen too long. Everyone blames God for everything don�t they eh.? Even Sarai. Yes I agree even though not a chosen wife by Abraham it does say Sarai gave Hagar to him as his wife. So one cannot dispute that fact.
Sandy you said: "And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael." (16: 11)
Starjade says: There was more to the text in my Bible so.
Genesis 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Sandy you said: "And Abraham was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abraham." (16: 16). "And God said unto Abraham, `As for Sarai thy wife, ..... I will bless her and give thee a son also of her: . . . . . and thou shalt call his name Isaac . . .. . . which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year And Abraham took Ishmael his son and ......every male among the men of Abraham's house; and......... circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him. And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. " (Gen. 17: 15-25). "And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him." (Gen. 21: 5).
Sandy you said: This brings out the contradictions of the Bible. It is evident that for 14 years the Prophet Ishmael (pbuh) was the only son of the Prophet Abraham (pbuh).
Starjade says: As Ishmael was his first born then for a period of Time he would have been the only son of Abraham until Isaac came along. Many of the discrepancies in Biblical text are caused by wars lost text and the Roman Christians who added on their own religious doctrine the New Testament onto the Old Testament to attempt to give it authenticity. These text were long winded and it is easy for mistakes to occur as few would be diligent or scholar enough to go checking and even then it would be a nightmare in those Times to correct. I personally do not take such text as absolute. The Old Testament is often claimed to be just 6,000 years old and we have all heard of dinosaurs and Cavemen. Dates from the Old Testament would be hard to record. I do not even believe that they could live so long. Just because a word is writ that does not make me believe it is all true.
You said it has been evident for only 14 years that Ishmael was the only son of Abraham. And what Prophecies exactly were those from Ishmael or do you consider all Biblical characters to be Prophets.? Well then I expect you to produce evidence to back up your claims. Neither of us lived in those Times but as far as I know the Old Testament is the oldest written data of those Times. Where do you get this evidence you have claimed what is its source.?
Sandy you said: Now if the offering had been asked of the only son, it was not of Isaac (pbuh) but of Ishmael (pbuh), for he alone was the only son; and if the offering of Isaac (pbuh) had been asked, it would be wrong to say that the offering of the only son had been asked.
Starjade says: When you say if that shows uncertainty. So you are not now sure of this evidence. In those days they spoke differently and worded things in a different manner. We do not say thine anymore do we or many other ways things are worded in the Old world languages. I agree it was a bad choice of wording which we all do now and then but the Old Testament says when Abraham was told to go and do the sacrificial deed he had already sent Hagar and Ishmael away casting them out into the wilderness. Which was not very nice at all in my view and I cannot see any father doing such a thing. Yet in today�s world I have heard worse. So then Isaac was then his only existing son in Abrahams presence.
The text of the Old Testament says; Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Starjade says: So the demand was to take thine son thine only son Isaac. Well that is not such a surprise is it when Hager and Ishmael had been cast out into the wilderness leaving only thine son Isaac in the company of Abraham. And by saying thine only son Isaac that denotes which of Abrahams sons were being spoke about otherwise Abraham would have to go find Ishmael. But as Isaac is named then so what? And of course Abraham loved him. So what�s the big mystery then. Sandy you said: And Starjade don't forget the following verses:
"Now Sarai, Abram's wife bore him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abraham, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abraham hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai Abraham's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abraham had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her husband Abram to be his [Abraham's] wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived." (Gen .16: 1-4)
Starjade says: It does without doubt say Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham to be his wife and so clearly that was so. Hagar then by her bond of slavery became the wife of Abraham. Hagar was a slave girl so then it was a sexual relationship only because Sarai could not give birth. But clearly she gave Hagar to Abraham to be his wife. Yet so what.? She was taking on that role only as a breeder. Further on I add it says and shows that even though Abraham took Hagar on as his wife for breeding purposes she was still considered to be the Handmaiden of Sarai.
Genesis 16:6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
Genesis 16:7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
Genesis 16:8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
Genesis 16:9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. Genesis 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Genesis 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Starjade
concludes. So even when used like a wife Hagar was still considered
to be the hand maiden. Not as an equal standing wife as unto Sarai.
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Starjade
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Wesley you said: This brings out the contradictions of the Bible. No, it doesn't. Issac was Abraham's only son by Sarah.
Starjade says: That is the other point. And Ishmael and Hagar had been cast out into the wilderness so Ishmael wasn�t around. I always think these tales however are just sent and are writ to beguile. I can see no other purpose of such text other than to give the reader some sense of duty or morality. . Sandy
you said:
And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael. (Gen.16: 11) And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. (Gen 17:20)
Sandy you said: Hagar too was Prophet Abraham's wife as Sarah :gave her husband Abram to be his [Abraham's] wife ---
(Genesis 16:3) And thus Ishmael was his first and blessed son and father of twelve rulers and a great nation. Jews tried to change the text of the Torah but did not do a "good job" thus the contradiction is still there and very clear when you read it carefully.
Starjade says: I think you may be just a tad paranoid about the Jews. They were being warred upon and their text destroyed and the Romans are the ones who wrote out and published all Bibles that contain Old and New Testament text so they could promote the false Prophet Jesus as being that Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 Prophet that the living God promised Moses he would raise up. I have read the Old and New Testament four Times and deciphered the text for its hidden words many more Times and it is a lot of text to go through.
I am sure those who made mistakes were happy to ignore them or cover them up not realizing how diligent others would be when reading those words. It cannot be denied Sarai gave Hagar to Abraham to be his wife. Of course there would be no ceremony. Abraham was there and the offer given so Abraham could jump her bones. It was hardly a love story. I am astonished at how they could even take people as slaves. Where is their sense of morality. Mind you as a male I can see the pleasure of a Harum of female slaves but it would only be a pleasure if they are willing and it would be an act of evil if they are not.
I have to repeat myself that hagar although given to Abraham to be his wife it was not a wife of a marriage but as in the act of a sexual relationship. Hagar was still considered to be the hand maiden. A slave no less and not as equal standing as a wife such as it was with sarai.
Genesis 16:6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
Genesis 16:7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
Genesis 16:8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
Genesis 16:9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. Genesis 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Genesis 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Starjade concludes. So even when used like a wife Hagar was still considered to be the hand maiden. Not as an equal standing wife as unto Sarai. When Sarai said take her as your wife it was in the act of a sexual relationship to bear a child for Abraham.
I further add that I find all these claims of angels appearing and god said this and god said that rather far reaching also. Who is the writer making such claims. How can they know God said this or that or this Angel appeared or whatever. Who says so. If it had been Hagar then why do we not see the Testimony?
I say who was this writer and by what authority did he have to speak such words. I prefer actual witness Testimonies as demanded by the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15. Just because a writer says a thing that does not make his word gospel truth. I suppose some tale must be writ to put some point across. I have never been that interested in the ramblings of religious text. Nor do I see the relevance as to who was sacrificed as that was a tale of be loyal to god scenario likened to moral guidance as in look what sacrifices people make for the living God.
I know what I would have said to the living God if it had been suggested I sacrifice my Son to that living White Sphere. But then there would be no need for my anger to blaze for I know the living God would not suggest such a thing. I would even doubt such a sacrifice thing ever occurred beyond any more than some tale of loyalty to the living God and a tale of moral guidance. So I fail to see what the big deal is all about.
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14.