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| Subject: Re: YO! |
| "I'm glad you clarified that. Honestly, I dont
know how you think you for sure know that a fetus has no will to live or die...you just dont know for sure, and I know of no guaranteed 110% scientific way you can prove that point one way or the other." I guess there's really no way I can convince you of this point. But the child simply has no fear or comprehension of pain or death. The brain isn't developed enough yet. "Besides, it almost seems like the whole basis of your arguement is that the baby robs the mother of nutrients until it is fully developed and exits the womb. This brings to mind 2 seperate thoughts to me... " Ergh, not entirely. My main point is that because the baby is physically part of the mother, she has the right to do what she feels is best. "1. is a parasite then a living being or not? they are fully developed, but must be attached to an organism,robbing it of its nutrients,etc, in order to survive." A parasite is a living being. My reason for allowing abortion when the baby is taking nutrients from the mother is not because the baby is a parasite. My reason is because it's the mother that the baby is taking nutrients from, since it's her body that the fetus is part of she should decide what to do with it. Note that a fetus is certainly living, everything including sperm and eggs cells are classified as living. "and 2, what about half way to 3/4 developed animals that exit the womb to live outside the female's body to develope the rest of the way. they arent developed fully (like the fetus) but they are outside of the body, still living on it to develope all the way. what do you think about that?" Well, that doesn't really apply to humans. But I'd say that since the animal is still part of the mother, it's the mothers desicion. "It's obvious that neither one of us will ever change our minds, but this is an interesting conversation to provoke thought on both sides of the arguement." Agreed :) "Just remember I did say i am pro-choice...just not for the same reasons you are." Hmm...I did kind of forget about that. |
| From: "odi_brassicium" |
| Subject: Re: YO! |
| ""Just remember I did say i am
pro-choice...just not > for the same reasons you are." > > Hmm...I did kind of forget about that." Let me clarify...what i mean is that I am pro-choice when it comes to individual rights for the woman, and for passing laws. I do agree that a woman should have the right to chose. there are sooo many reasons why a woman may not want to bring a baby to term, and thus she should have the right to abort if she choses. I would like to make that choice stay the way it currently is, though. they are only legally allowed to abort during the 1st trimester(which is plenty of time to decide) and in extreme cases they can abort during the first half of the 2nd trimester. that seems logical. I dont think we do anything but cause harm by making it illegal (anyone heard of back alley abortions? ewwww.) I, in my own personal decision, am pro- life. I could never do that to my baby because I see life at conception...but that is my choice...i am allowed(as a woman) that choice. But I am definately pro-choice( NOTE: pro-choice means you have a CHOICE...i did not say i was pro abortion. I personally am against abortions, but am willing to allow other women the right to chose for themselves) bb, 3/4angel |
| From: "threequartersangel" |
| Subject: Re: YO! |
| "Let me clarify...what i mean is that I am
pro-choice when it comes to individual rights for the woman, and for passing laws. I do agree that a woman should have the right to chose. there are sooo many reasons why a woman may not want to bring a baby to term, and thus she should have the right to abort if she choses. I would like to make that choice stay the way it currently is, though. they are only legally allowed to abort during the 1st trimester(which is plenty of time to decide) and in extreme cases they can abort during the first half of the 2nd trimester. that seems logical. I dont think we do anything but cause harm by making it illegal (anyone heard of back alley abortions? ewwww.) I, in my own personal decision, am pro- life. I could never do that to my baby because I see life at conception...but that is my choice...i am allowed(as a woman) that choice. But I am definately pro-choice( NOTE: pro-choice means you have a CHOICE...i did not say i was pro abortion. I personally am against abortions, but am willing to allow other women the right to chose for themselves)" Thanks for the Clarification. I see what you mean by being against abortion and pro-choice. I admire your reasoning in keeping the choice available despite your personal beliefs. |
| From: "odi_brassicium" |
| Subject: Free will |
| Just thought I might spark another debate here. This
may be interesting because I've heard both atheists and Christians argue both sides of this. What's everyones veiw on free will? Personally I don't believe there is such a thing as free will. It doesn't seem to make any sense. I think we make our descisions based on the chemical make up in our body. What we decide is based on genetic and enviromental stumuli. Note my rejection of free will does not involve fate, just simple determinism and the physical laws of the universe. |
| From: "odi_brassicium" |
| Subject: Re: Free will |
| Ok.... concidering that both sides are argueable, I
chose to stand with the idea that we have some form (even a little bit) of free will. we can make choices and all that..although, i find it interesting that even the bible says that we are predestined for everything that we do, so i guess we dont(if you go by the bible, that is)...bringing up that point....if the bible says that god knew everything about us before we were ever born,and that everything we do is predestined...does that mean he already knows who is going to hell before you are even born? then why bother? hm... just some interesting thoughts. bb, 3/4angel |
| From: "threequartersangel" |
| Subject: Re: Free will |
| "Ok.... concidering that both sides are
argueable, I chose to stand with the idea that we have some form (even a little bit) of free will. we can make choices and all that" Okay, cool. My question now is what exactly is this driving force called free will. When we make a choice with this will, what is the choice based on if not from prior information. Randomness? How can free will be "free" in every sense of the word? "..although, i find it interesting that even the bible says that we are predestined for everything that we do, so i guess we dont(if you go by the bible, that is)...bringing up that point....if the bible says that god knew everything about us before we were ever born,and that everything we do is predestined...does that mean he already knows who is going to hell before you are even born? then why bother? hm... just some interesting thoughts." This is a point I often make to Christians. How is it fair for god to send some people to hell if they are predestined to go? They can't help it, so how is it justified? Also, why not just send us straight to heaven or hell depending on where he knows we'll go? Do you know a verse in the bible where it says we are predestined for everything? I've yet to find it, but I know I've been told now by a couple people where it is. |
| From: "odi_brassicium" |
| Subject: Re: Free will |
| here's a few verses for ya: Ephesians 1:11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will. Jeremiah 1:5 it speaks specifically of wha was decided for jeremiah before he was even formed in the womb Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to e conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be te firstborn among many brethren. these are all kjv, I know that there are more, but i dont know where they are. bb, 3/4angel ps:i guess that the driving force behind free-willed decisions is past experience...hm...this is a tricky subject |
| From: "threequartersangel" |
| Subject: Re: Free will |
| "Ephesians 1:11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will. Jeremiah 1:5 it speaks specifically of what was decided for jeremiah before he was even formed in the womb Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be te firstborn among many brethren. these are all kjv, I know that there are more, but i dont know where they are." Thankyou very much for the verses :). I'll put them to good use ;). "ps:i guess that the driving force behind free-willed decisions is past experience...hm...this is a tricky subject" Hehe, yes it is. If "free will" is guided and forced by passed experience, how is it actually free? |
| From: "odi_brassicium" |