Posted by J.H. on March 21, 1999 at 10:01:50 {MWKQmDRkic4cM}:
In Reply to: **Realization posted by LiberalDogma Also-WW on March 21, 1999 at 08:32:59:
WW,
I'm sure Norm finds some amusement in being called "liberal", considering that by Norwegian standard he's reasonably rightist. I see "reasonably" since if you take the American political landscape and try to map it into European politics, the Democrats will be something like the Christian-Democrats here (rightist), and the Repuplicans can only be compared to Le Pen's party in France and the Austrian and German parties with the same name: Republicans. In case you didn't know: In Europe these parties are considered almost, if not entirely, neo-nazi.
That is of course in understanding that to an American, the word "liberal" means "radical", which is the opposite. In Europe, "liberal" means
rightist, that is, in economic politics.
: I'll bet that you also favor abortions besides hating capital punishment? Is that not hypocrisy and typical of radical liberals?
If the Americans hadn't done such violence to language, the word "radical liberal" would be a contradiction in terms.
I can't speak for Norm, but I can give my answer: I don't favor abortions, but I certainly favor the mother's free choice over having others decide. And I do oppose the general use of capital punishment for two reasons: 1) it reduces the value of life in society; 2) the gross injustices and incempetence of all legal systems we ever had on this planet means a lot of false decisions are made, and you can to some degree make good for a prison sentence, but you can't make an unjustful execution good again.
In addition, it can be easily observed that the places where there are capital punishment has a much higher crime rate.
: Is human life just a matter of timing?
Not just, but timing matters. One can argue that legal limits are comewhat arbitrary, but start-of-term abortions which are legal in civilized countries does not remove anything resembling a human. It has no mind, not thoughts, no actual conscious existance. That is a fact.
: Tell us how wonderful the world and it's leaders are when some terrorist group finally gets their hands on a suitcase nuke or some vial of a new version of the 'black death'.
Typical fundie mind-trap, and you've fallen into it big time. It's either totally black or totally white, eh? Norm's argument is exactly that real life is mostly shades of grey. And since you propose a somewhat possible, if not likely, scenario above: is it not human beings who have to make a difference to put a stop to such events?
: Tell us how some people are deserving of life when they no longer resemble human beings in thought or action.
I think the overall interests of society overrides any puny desire for revenge over individuals that has committed crimes. Besides, who is to judge whether another human being deserves life? Me? You? The jury that acquitted O.J.?
: One can very easily trace the breakdown in families and morality as liberal in cause and has resulted in the very high crime rates.
Rubbish. Go study a bit of history. No country in the western world has a crime rate even close to the civil war conditions you had in the US in the Reagan era, and still to some degree have now. And you have been consistently the "toughest on crime". You have the worst social indicators of any western country no matter what you look at (teen pregancies, poverty, violence, sexual crimes), despite -- or perhaps because of -- your hatred of everything "liberal". Perhaps it's time to look at yourself and your own values (or lack thereof) to find the cause of your problems? Perhaps look back to old Europe and try to learn a bit about how to deal with social problems?
: We have the right to father any number of children and let society deal with them. We will have no discipline at all because it might harm their little egos.
Straw men galore. Nobody advocates this.
: We cannot execute criminals guilty of heinious crimes against fellow humans because it is barbaric?
If putting them away for life proves to have overall better effects for society than your barbaric executions, perhaps your thirst for blood should be clenched? Perhaps it's the same mentality that have people screaming for blood -- be it sport, entertainment or judicial system -- that creates these maniacs in the first place? Nobody I know argue being tolerant towards violance or crime. Far from it. But you can shave without cutting your head off.
: Get real! Your liberal agenda is just as dogmatic and filled with inconsistencies as any other dogma is.
You are foaming at the mouth so you confuse your terms. An "agenda" can't logically be a "dogma." So far, all you've done is sprouting Rush Limbough-like politican slogans devoid of actual content. The real world is a bit more complicated and less black/white than you seem to think. Perhaps it's time to get rid of the Watchtower glasses for good and learn that the world is both good and bad, and that one of the worst things in it indeed are fanatics who don't see this fact.
: Accountability is what is missing. We are so free as to ignore the consequences of our actions and the loss of consistent morality is the main cause of this.
Right! Bring us back to the good old Medieval times when nobody questioned anything and consistent morality was enforced.
Last I heard, you've put close to 1% of your population into jail. If you scream louder about "accountability" it would be easier to build a wall around those few who aren't in prison.
Besides, when we speak about accountability: how honestly do you right-wingers fill in your income tax forms? Isn't it that time of year soon?
: You have no better answer than any of the rest of us do. In fact, if one follows the admonitions of peace and love that Christ, Ghandi, Zarathusthra and other prophets have laid out, we would have a better world in which to live!
Perhaps. One thing is certain: if people had fully ignored all the self-proclaimed prophets and people who claimed to speak for God, the world would definately be a much better place.
Fact: The work for improvement of every condition in human life has been a long, uphill struggle
against the forces of religion.
And don't give us that about "true" or "false" religion. Show me a single religion that has not stood in the way of all human progress from the very start!
(Indeed, Ba'hai is one of the very, very few exceptions to some of the above, but even they certainly aren't above criticism.)
: As far as Divine Judgement is concerned, you are just one of us pitiable humans who have the view of a gnat and argue against the alleged inhumanity of that judgement.
You are totally confused. The "divine judgment" idea is a totally human invention. Its just another of those ideas that some humans have created to get power over others.
: If we are in fact, created beings or evolved-created beings, we owe our very EXISTENCE to some version of God and that being the case, his jugement is what matters in the end. I trust in him rather than any human concept of justice.
That would be self-evident, if we leave aside the objections to that view of life. But you know just as much and just as little about the standards of justice this alleged judgment will use.
And since there is no evidence whatsoever that this will ever happen, the best we can do is to try to improve the situation ourselves. And we do.
Religionists seem to mostly end up in two different camps: do-nothing doomsayers who sit in a corner whining about how horrible the world is, and dream about some
god getting it right One Fine Day, or people who actively work to make the world a worse place to be. Go figure.