----- Original Message -----
From: Saul Sabia <[email protected]>
To: Kevin Pierce <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: Your Response on the news group
>
>
>
> > I waited for the rest of your message, but I guess you forgot, or you
> > haven't had time. That's Ok.
>
> The last few days have been rather interesting. So yeah, no time.
>
> Sorry 'bout that.
>
>
> > Jesus is not a cure all. What he can do, is offer comfort and direction
> > if you listen. Some people can delude themselves into believing He has
> > wiped away their pain, or they are looking so hard for Him to do this,
they
> > miss His actual help. No one, Even Christ is going to give you a free
ride.
> > He is here to give you guidance. That, he will do always. He won't
fight
> > your battles for you, He WILL fight by your side. It's like the old
saying,
> > "God helps those who help themselves"
>
> Then why have God, if you only end up helping yourself? That's like God
> saying 'I'm only going to help the strong, the capable, and the
successful.'
>
> That's b******t. Jesus is supposed to be tight with the sinners and the
> losers of the world, right? So where do they come in?
>
That is right. You'll never know all of the ways Jesus has helped you in
your life already. The point is, Jesus wont simply step in and fix it every
time you ask. If you are sincere in your desire to walk the path He has set
for you, He will help you. Sometimes He has a purpose in your trials. If
you ask God to fix every inconveinience in your life, you will be
disappointed. Try asking him for understanding instead.
> Nah, screw it.
>
>
> > That is a pitfall of cultural history. Have you ever read a book with a
> > character you started out feeling very antipathetic to, but by the end
you
> > had learned more about them until you felt real sympathy for them?
> > Christianity is similar to this. On the surface, Christianity just
looks
> > like a collection "God myths." But as you delve deeper, you find
striking
> > differences in Christianity.
> > First and foremost, Christianity is the only religion that offers
direct
> > communication with God. Without two way contact with God, His existence
> > would be moot.
>
> Incorrect. Christianity is NOT the only religion to offer direct
> communication with the Maker. Shamanism, Wicca, and various Eastern
> religions all do.
>
> And many more religions are content to communicate with God through
> an intermediary, a priest. They do just fine.
>
Shamanism and Wicca are distinct because communication with the deity in
question only allows communication through the clergy. This is a very
stronge distinction. God allows every one of us to speak to Him any time we
feel the need. He is watching over every one of us. This is very different
than a god that will not even notice you unless you pass on a plea through
one of his leutenants. I don't know that I could reconcile a god that is to
good to talk to me, but sees another man as worthy.
>
> > Second, you have to remember the depth of human history. God has
been
> > in communion with people for all of our history. There are many ways
races
> > have chosen to interpret this communion throughout the ages. Often, the
> > original message has been muted and distorted by time. This is the
reason
> > for Jesus.
>
> Jesus was probably well-meaning, but let's face it... he distorted almost
> completely the original Judaeo-Christian traditions. He was a massive
> revolutionary, someone who injected massive amounts of New Agey philosiphy
> into an older, staid tradition. Before, Yahweh was a cold, jealous
> mountain God, fed with blood. After, Jehovah (a distortion of Yahweh, BTW)
> become a loving God. It's a 180 flip. There's no similarities between
> the two.
>
I wouldn't call it a 180 flip necessarily. It is true that Jesus was sent
to cut away the coruption and distortions to God's message. The key word
there is, "staid tradition". This is still a problem today. If you look at
groups like the Catholic church, when your faith begins to calcify, you take
God out of your life. Once this happens, it get's easy to justify
oppression of people for the purpose of maintaining power.
This is what had happened to the church at the time of Jesus' arival.
Despite the distortions some people like to cast on the life of Jesus, He
did not rable rouse against the Romans. He had no interest in politics of
this world. He said, "Give unto God what belongs to God, and give unto
Ceaser what belongs to Ceasar." His interest was in tearing down the
politics of the church, so we could all stand before God equally, as He sees
us. Do you really think God will only listen to you if another man has
given you a peice of paper, or a special robe? Do you think God really
cares if you are standing in front of a "sacred" alter? That was the whole
point of Jesus coming to us. He gave us the freedom to build our
relationship with Him on a personal level instead of looking to another man
for the "rules."
> Jesus had to have been like Hitler... a powerful, influential speaker
> who could sway the masses like sheep or cattle. He used his views on
> what Jahweh should be to create 'Christianity.'
>
Hitler excited the people by apealing to their fears and predjudice. His
rein and influence over peoples thinking was very short, on fifteen years at
most.
Jesus delivered the truth in such a pure form, that his message is still
heard and followed two thousand years later. That is a huge difference.
Remember not to confuse political parodies of His message with the
message itself. When you atribute their actions to God, you do Him a
disservice. If you read the Bible, and come to your own understanding of
God you will better understand His message, and may be able to move past the
dogma that clouds so many minds.
Jesus gave God back to us, and men have tried to take Him away ever since.
This, more than any sign, disaster or mystical date makes me believe the end
can't be too far away. Every day it seems the number of people that will
manipulate His message to their own worldly gains grows. I'm sorry if that
is off the point and a little heavy, it's just a little side bar.
>
>
> > He was sent to clear the confusion, and show us that as Mankind
grows
> > and changes, so does God's relationship with us. This is where it get
> > difficult for some people. The laws that God gave to the Israelites
while
> > in the dessert, do not all apply to us today. Similarly, many of
Christ's
> > lessons and commandments were changed by His death. Some people confuse
> > God's unchanging nature with God's commandment to us. Trying to follow
> > every rule in the Bible from front to back will create apparent
> > contradictions. That is where so many abandon the Bible as absurd.
It's
> > important that you read the Bible as it is, an account of God's
relationship
> > with the human race.
>
> Uh huh. See, you're doing it too. You are justifying the contradictions
> that are apparent in the Bible, trying to explain them away. Face it, if
> one takes the Bible at face value, it is a confusing, contradictory book.
> One must interpret it using some form of rationale.
>
No justification is at work here. Have you read the Bible? Have you
followed it in a chronological order? This argument is pretty common. It's
an over simplification of the question. It's the easy way to pass the Bible
off as faulty. The key is "face value". What is face value? If you only
look at the bare surface, "War and Peace" is a confusing and contradictory
book. Looking deaper for understanding is not a justification, it's
logical. And when you look at the Bible with all preconceptions laid aside,
you will be amazed at the story that emerges. I once read a book by a
Jesuit preist named Jack Vance titled, "God. A Biography." The most
interesting thing about it is, that in writing it, we realized the danger of
his own calcified denomination, and left the church. It's well worth
reading if you can find it. It will open your eyes to the evolution of
God's relationship with His people.
> I'm putting a thread out in alt.religion.christian-teen that proposes
> that Christians no longer need the Old Testament. It's a fascinating
> thought that I've come up with... it eliminates most of the contradictions
> right there.
>
You are again making the mistake assuming zero growth. God created this
world with the ability to grow and cycle. Therefore, His relationship by
the very evidence of His nature most also grow and folow cycles. The Old
Testament serves the function of history. It provides us depth in
understanding God.
Tell me. I n you your past, have you ever dealt with a situation that
today could not be handled in the same way?
A good analogy would be child rearing. As a small child, it is often
necessary to disipline with spanking. You have to do so because the child
can't understand how it's actions could come to harm. You don't do it out
of spite, or a need for gratifying power. You do it to protect the child,
and guarentee it's future survival.
As the child grows older, your disciplinary methodes grow as well. You
wouldn't spank a ten year old, because at that age, it is possible to reason
with them. Does that mean there is some sort of contradiction at work? Are
we required to adhear to the same rigid relationship throughout the child's
life? Would you try to go to your grown child's home and spank him in front
of his own children for not cleaning his room?
Why should we expect the same irrational behaivior from God?
>
> > It IS hard, but not impossible. The only difference is scale. While I
will
> > agree, being raped is a much more devastating experience, Jesus is still
> > there to help. He can not undo it, but he can guide you to a path of
> > healing. And when all is said and done, isn't this what we are seeking?
> > Whether we seek it out through drugs, sex or by repeating patterns of
abuse.
>
>
> Yeah, Christianity is billed as the biggest comforter.
>
> I don't believe it, because I've seen it in action.
>
You've seen poor representatives in action.
>
>
> > > I'm beginning to have the opinion that the modern Christian God is
> > > nothing like the God(s) of the Bible.
> > >
> > It isn't God that has changed, it's us.
>
> The concept of a God hasn't changed, but our interpretation of that
> concept has. So thus before, a more primitive unlearned people expected
> a harsh, unforgiving God that they had to placate. Now, a more civilized
> (pathetic) peace-loving God is in force, because we are a peace-loving
> world, for the most part.
>
No, in our infancy, a firmer hand was required to guide our growth. As we
have grown, God has lessened his hold over us, because we have reached a
point in our development, that we have to be able discover things for
ourselves, and have the chance to learn from our own mistakes. God is not
pathetic, He is a knowing parent who has the wisdom to guide our lives, not
control it.
> Trying to say that those two Gods are the same is idiocy, because they
> aren't. Since we make God, we change him just as easily.
>
>
We are not talking about two Gods. More acuratly, we are talking about how
God dealt with two different people. Are supposing that we are exactly the
same as we were four thousand years ago? Would you be happy with a god that
dealt with both people identically?
> > joy of God, and can offer each other guidance. We're all on a
pilgrimage of
> > discovery, and to become rigid and closed to discussion, is to close out
the
> > voice Christ in your life. Watch out for people that think the have it
all
> > right. None of us do. We're only seekers.
>
> That's going to be about the only thing I can totally agree with you
> on. No one has all the answers, and those who think they do are lying,
> to us or themselves.
>
>
At least we've gotten that far.
> > > So if you say you're Christian, you're Christian. At least, that's
> > > my conclusion.
> >
> > What you say isn't half as important as what you think.
>
>
> What do I think? Okay, here's what I think. I think 99.9% of all
> Christians are living a lie. They have erected this God who will
> make up for all of their faults. They have a God that will love them,
> no matter what they do. They have a God that will forgive any
> wrong-doing, they have a God that will allow any activity with the
> proper amount of outwards repentance later, the proper amount of
> shown remorse.
>
99.9% I think is a bit of a wild extrapolation. The point is that "a proper
amount of repentance" is not going to get you right in God's eyes. Once
again, you are confusing peoples justifications with God. You can't deny
God because of other peoples crimes. You have to come to understand Him for
yourself. If you leave it up to others to tell you how to think, you will
conntinue to go in confussion and pain.
> And for that, I hate Christianity. For that self-serving b*****t
> I hate humanity. God, I hate people. I hate myself sometimes, too.
>
Hate can cloud judgement. Before you can love God, you have to love
yourself. Why do you hate yourself?
> Of course, right now I'm a little 'unstable' because I'm getting
> ready to break up with my girlfriend. Yeah, I'm a frickin' nutcase,
> having mood swings and problems sleeping and having some very
> bad thoughts. But right now I'm listening to some good music,
> Billy Joel's 'Piano Man' and I'm doing all right for the next few
> minutes. =)
>
>
> > That is a cynical view. You have to be careful not to confuse cynicism
with
> > critical thinking. While it is important to remain critical, because
this
> > will allow you to view everything, and reach a more solid conclusion
> > between you and God, cynicism precludes discovery. If you approach a
> > situation looking for a sinister intent, you guarantee that you won't
see
> > any deeper.
>
>
> Well, I'm screwed then. I can't handle too much more of anything.
>
I don't really understand what you mean here.
>
> > You should never do anything in a service that makes you feel stupid.
It
> > should all be about what you feel in your soul. If you are only
> > pantomiming, you are blocking the true spirit from entering. If it
isn't
> > time for you to welcome the Spirit into your deepest places, it's not
time.
> > Don't fake it. No one should expect you to.
>
> Hey man, I was trying. I thought I felt something, and I figured if I
> did what everyone else was doing, it would flow a little smoother on out.
>
> But I guess that's just not how I work.
>
It's not how anyone works. What those people were doing, is expressing an
inner joy at feeling the Spirit of God in their hearts and minds. You can't
achieve the action by mimicing the reaction. Listen to your heart, and be
truthfull to yourself. Your reaction will be different than anyone elses.
You are an individual. Unique and special, you have gifts to offer that are
only yours.
>
> > If God just handed out "signs" to everyone, we would all be Christians.
The
> > fact is, you have to grow spiritually, and be ready before God will
> > demonstrate these signs to you. If God did just deliver a sign before
you
> > were on the right path, you would probably never get there. You would
take
> > the sign as proof that you were already on the right path and stop, or
> > travel down the wrong path.
>
> Henh. A fat lot of good God is, then. 'When you guess right, I'll
> tell you!'
>
No. Not guess. Listen to your heart. The first step is there. Follow it,
and He will be there when you need Him.
>
> > *But because the man was looking at bushes, not hearts;
> > bricks and not lives, seas and not souls,
> > he decided that God had done nothing. *
>
> I should probably clarify. The poem is someone elses. The sarcastic,
> cynical intervals are mine. =)
>
>
> > You were looking for something spectacular. The voice of God in our
lives
> > is not always a great earth shaking shout, it is a gentle breeze across
our
> > souls. You have to be very quiet to here Him. If you spend your time
> > raging to God, and begging for floods and fires as proof, you won't be
able
> > to hear when he steps up and whispers over your shoulder, "I'm here."
>
> Heh. See, I was at the point if I would have had any indication, I
> would've jumped on it. A dream, even, and this is coming from a person
> who has the most f****d up dreams ever. Anything, and I would've
> converted. Bam, right there. I just might still, I dunno. For all
> that I say that I can't understand Christianity, I'd still be a part
> of it for all the hope it offers, for the comfort and all that c**p.
>
> But I have to be careful... can't confuse my wanting that security
> blanket with truly believing, like so many suckers have.
>
> Instead I had one of the sh*****st months of my life, those 30 or so
> days. You'd wonder if someone _was_ trying to tell me something.
>
>
His message isn't always one we want to hear. He may have been trying to
tell you that you were looking to the wrong things, or He may have been
telling you something only you and He could know. Your mistake could very
well be in assuming to know the nature of the sign God will provide you.
>
>
>
> Saul 'Putting the X back in Xtianity' Sabia
> [email protected]
