I waited for the rest of your message, but I guess you forgot, or you haven't had time.
That's O.K.
----- Original Message -----
From: Saul Sabia <[email protected]>
To: Kevin Pierce <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: Your Response on the news group
>
>
> > I would like to say that I am glad that you are a little more calm.
> > I would also like to address some of your points.
>
> I've been going through my 3-month cycle over the past few days.
> It's not a pretty site, I go through some of the worst mood swings.
> Before, I would go into deep, deep depressions and start having dreams
> about a blasted, charred world that I would walk, and I would always
> know that I was alone... I could look off to the side and see open
> graves that held everyone I knew. It was cold, dark, and it sucked,
> but I walked it anyways.
>
> Boy, was I messed up. =) Thank God for Paxil.
>
>
> > I think your biggest problem here is the idea that praying is supposed
> > to get you anything you want. This is popular concept for both Athiests,
> > and less knowledgable followers. The truth is, God will not grant every
> > selfish or frivolous request. God does not denie us our free will. He will
> > only act as a teacher and a consoler. He gives sugestions (even to
> > non-believers), but does not force the direction of your thoughts. That is
> > the distinction. He promised not to. He did not say he could not.
>
> See, that's the thing though. Jesus is held up as the 'cure-all' for
> your problems. Bad day at work? Pray to Jesus. Fall down and scrape
> your knee? Pray to Jesus.
>
Jesus is not a cure all. What he can do, is offer comfort and direction if you
listen. Some people can dilude themselves into believing He has wiped away their pain, or they are looking so hard
for Him to do this, they miss His actual help. No one, Even Christ is going to give you a free ride. He is here
to give you guidance. That, he will do always. He won't fight your battles for you, He WILL fight by your side.
It's like the old saying, "God helps those who help themselves"
> Sure, you're told that Jesus won't help you with all your problems, but
> you're told to pray to him anyways. I dunno, maybe my upbringing and
> most of the services I've been to are different than the ones you've
> attended. But it seems to be much too common to just 'Pray to Jesus
> and it'll be all better.'
>
Ditto
> I just can't envision Jesus at all, maybe that's my problem. I'm
> becoming more and more jaded as my college days progress and I learn
> more and more about the cultural background of mythologies and stuff
> like that.
>
>
That is a pitfall of cultural history. Have you ever read a book with a character
you started out feeling very antipathic to, but by the end you had learned more about them until you felt real
sympathy for them?
Christianity is similar to this. On the surface, Christianity just looks like a collection "God myths."
But as you delve deeper, you find striking differences in Christianity.
First and foremost, Christianity is the only religeon that offers direct comunication with God. Without two way
contact with God, His existance would be moot.
Second, you have to remember the depth of human history. God has been in communion with people for all of our history.
There are many ways races have choosen to interperate this communion throught the ages. Often, the original message
has been muted and distorted by time. This is the reason for Jesus.
He was sent to cleare the confussion, and show us that as Mankind grows and changes, so does God's relationship
with us. This is where it get dificult for some people. The laws that God gave to the Isrealites while in the dessert,
do not all apply to us today. Similarly, many of Christ's lessons and commandments were changed by His death. Some
people confuse God's unchanging nature with God's commandment to us. Trying to follow every rule in the Bible from
front to back will create aparent contradictions. That is where so many abandon the Bible as absurd. It's imprtant
that you read the Bible as it is, an account of God's relationship with the human race.
>
> > >
> > > Let's just put it this way... the message that they tried to relay
> > > was only for those who had no brain. Since they didn't put it in
> > > real-life terms, didn't even attempt to take on the serious issues
> > > in life, it's worth nothing. Zip zilch nada. I merely called them on
> > > it. Well, and a little extra, I suppose.
> > >
> > All things are the same. Whether a broken leg, or gang rape, the same
> > standard applies. While God cannot prevent either without removing free
> > will, he can be there to help us grow thruogh either experience. I wouldn't
> > say that a rape is just as bad as a broken leg, I'm only saying that the
> > same standards of life apply to either.
>
> I don't. There's a hell of a difference between a broken leg, which is
> at worst an inconvenience physically, and an event that rips your
> psyche to shreds. You can't say 'Learn from it' to someone who's been
> raped... it's damn near impossible. What can they do about it? It's
> over and done, and often (percentage-wise) there's very little they
> could've done about it anyways. Often it was uninvited, done by someone
> close to them (this is percentage-wise, again).
>
>
It IS hard, but not impossible. The only difference is scale. While I will agree,
being raped is a much more devestating experience, Jesus is still there to help. He can not undo it, but he can
guide you to a path of healing. And when all is said and done, isn't this what we are seeking? Whether we seek
it out through drugs, sex or by repeating patterns of abuse.
> > Guidance and interference are two different things. He does not force
> > his guidance on us. That is why so many never hear Him. He only offers it
> > to us.
>
> I'm beginning to have the opinion that the modern Christian God is
> nothing like the God(s) of the Bible.
>
It isn't God that has changed, it's us.
>
> > If so called followers have fostered anger in you, they were not acting
> > from God, they were acting on thier own misguided ideas. Just because a
> > person goes to church, itdoes not mean he speaks for God. I have met many
> > petty people that showed up for church every Sunday.
>
> It doesn't matter if they're "real" followers or not. They say they're
> Christian, just like 95% of the Christians out there who wouldn't fit
> your ideal of a good Christian. You can't implement a judgement over
> different faiths, because the faiths themselves are composed of so many
> different people. Two people in one faith will often believe completely
> different things.
>
That's right. But the thing to remember, is that Christianity is a relationship.
It's between you and God. In my own church I am sure there are plenty of people that won't agree with everything
I tnink or say, as there are things I don't agree with as well. We are only human, not perfect. But that does not
mean that only I am saved. We all share in our joy of God, and can offer each other guidance. We're all on a pilgrimage
of discovery, and to become ridgid and closed to discussion, is to close out the voice Christ in your life. Watch
out for people that think the have it all right. None of us do. We're only seekers.
> So if you say you're Christian, you're Christian. At least, that's
> my conclusion.
>
>
What you say isn't half as important as what you think.
>
> > Here is an Idea. If you would like to meet people that are doing thier
> > true best to walk the path God has set for them, try visiting a church on a
> > Wednesday night. You will find that most of the "for show" Christians don't
> > bother to attend throught the week. Sunday is enough for them to feel they
> > have filled thier obligation, and to support thier self righteousness. Some
> > of the best services I have ever attended were on a Wednesday night.
>
> I did, and occasionally (rarely) still do. Often the youth groups are on
> Wednesday night, because us youth need to be brainwa... ahh, influenced
> more than the older, more set minds.
>
>
That is a cynical view. You have to be carefull not to confuse cynicism with critical
thinking. While it is inportant to remain critical, because this will allow you to view everything, and reach a
more solid conclusion between you and God, cynicism precludes discovery. If you aproach a situation looking for
a sinister intent, you guarantee that you won't see any deeper.
> > Last night, I addressed a question I have had on my heart for some time.
> > I knew that God had a plan for me, but I could not see what it was through
> > the self doubt. I was very suprised when the preacher began to speak
> > specifically about my problem (I hadn't mentioned it to anyone but God). He
> > told the congregation that he had tried all week, but hadn't been able to
> > find a subject to preach on, until that night when God showed him what he
> > needed to say. I was so moved by this obvious sign, that I went to the
> > alter to pray. I told God that I understood that it might not be time to
> > understand the long term dirrection of my life, and ask for Him to at least
> > show me the first step in the path He had set for me. I also asked him to
> > give me something to help my self doubt.
>
> An obvious sign. Of course. Jeez, I'm sorry, but that's just so _not_
> an obvious anything. The preacher couldn't figure anything to preach
> on, and you don't know what to do with your life? Is there any
> correlation at all? I'm not thinking so.
>
>
It goes deeper than that. I knew what I felt God wanted from my life. The question
was, my own self doubt, and how God wanted me to go about the things he expected of me. The preacher's message
addressed my questions directly. He had asked God for help in finding a sermon, but God held that message from
him until the last moment. I would say because the message would be more pure without time for a human mind to
twist it with self doubt and second guessing. The correlation is, the message God gave him to deliver was specific
to my issue (which I had discussed with no one before that night).
> > My brother in law had come with us last night. He has also had a great
> > deal of abuse in his life, and lives in a constant depression. He has no
> > self esteem to speak of. He had spent the day with us, and I had asked him
> > to come with us, as I often do. He had answered that he would go, but he
> > planned to sleep through the service.
>
> =)
>
> > While at the alter, I said to God, "I know what I feel You want from me,
> > but I need help. I need to know that I am not only twisting my own self
> > interest and convincing myself it is Your way. There is someone here that
> > needs you more than I ever have. If You want these things of me, then open
> > his heart and bring him up here where he needs to be."
> > When I had finished and stood, I turned to see him kneeling beside me
> > crying. I hadn't seen an emotional response, other than anger, from him in
> > years.
>
> Good. Even though it was in a religious service, it's still better
> than keeping all that anger inside. I don't think I've ever really
> had a breakthrough in any religious ceremony, except to realize how
> stupid I looked holding my hands up in the air.
>
>
You should never do anything in a service that makes you feel stupid. It should
all be about what you feel in your soul. If you are only pantomiming, you are blocking the true spirit from entering.
If it isn't time for you to welcome the Spirit into your deepest places, it's not time. Don't fake it. No one should
expect you to.
> > Needless to say, this sort of thing is hard to ignore. If you listen
> > closely, you will hear God in your life. He will not speak to you with the
> > great shout most people expect, but with a gentle voice. He is there,
> > waiting for you to listen. He is the parent who understands that He can't
> > force you to do what is best. Instead, He waits quietly for you to come to
> > Him.
>
> Yeah, see, the thing is, at one point I wanted Jesus. I think in
> some ways I still do. Before I took my history courses and all that
> jazz, I spent about a month dedicatedly praying to God and asking
> him to show me some sign that I wasn't alone in this universe.
>
If God just handed out "signs" to everyone, we would all be Christians.
The fact is, you have to grow spiritually, and be ready before God will demonstrate these signs to you. If God
did just diliver a sign before you were on the right path, you would probably never get there. You would take the
sign as proof that you were already on the right path and stop, or travel down the wrong path.
> I actually responded to someone's post a while back in the arc-t
> newsgroup... here's the link. It sums up the month very well.
>
> http://sa-1.enteract.com/~digialex/arc-t/archives-mumble.html
>
>
I read your poem. It really does hit close to home. I have been there. I think
the key, is what you said,
*But because the man was looking at bushes, not hearts;
bricks and not lives, seas and not souls,
he decided that God had done nothing. *
You were looking for something spectacular. The voice of God in our lives is not always a great earth shaking shout,
it is a gentle breeze across our souls. You have to be very quiet to here Him. If you spend your time raging to
God, and begging for floods and fires as proof, you won't be able to hear when he steps up and wispers over your
shoulder, "I'm here."
> I have to go eat. I'll respond to the rest of your post when I'm
> done.
>
>
> Saul 'Putting the X back in Xtianity' Sabia
> [email protected]
> http://members.tripod.com/saul_sabia
> "your children of the korn was born
> from your porn and twisted ass ways
> now you look amazed
> I'm sitting in a daze in a purple haze
> You better check my pulse
> 'cause nothin' seems to faze.
>
> Biatch!"
> -- Korn + Ice Cube "Children of the Korn"
Looking forward to your response.
God bless you and be with you in your Journey.
