I would like to say that I am glad that you are a little more calm. I
would also like to address some of your points.
----- Original Message -----
From: Saul Sabia <[email protected]>
To: Kevin Pierce <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: Your Response on the news group
>
> > I'm writing you personally, instead of posting my response on the
> > news group, because my purpose is not to publicly refute or attempt
> > to shame you, but to try and answer you in a sane, and personal manner.
>
> *shrug* Whatever works.
>
>
> > I felt the need to respond to you because I sensed a lot of pain
> > in your writing. I only ask that you listen to what I have to say,
> > and expect nothing else.
>
> Of course. My response is totally up to me.
>
>
> > I don't want to try to compare pain, or try to get into an
> > argument about who's pain is greater. Suffice it to say, we
> > all have suffered to one degree or another in our lives.
> >
> > I too, was as angry as you are. I lashed out at anything
> > relating to God with great relish. I was very good at denying
> > God, and rattling off long diatribes to prove His non-existence.
> > I used my intellect to batter down believers and cast doubt on
> > their faith. It was pretty easy, most people found their faith
> > on rather shaky preconceptions. I went about in anger and
> > ineffectual rage all of the time. I too used excessive profanity
> > as an outlet for my fury. I spent years looking for an alternative
> > to God. I explored atheism, agnostic theories, alternative philosophy,
> > and new age metaphysics.
>
> > All of these things seemed to be based on the same "blind faith"
> > I so hated. I could find no relief from my rage there.
>
> Ahhh. You've felt it too.
>
>
> > I am not trying to put you down, only show you that I understand.
> > A couple of years ago, I would have been behind you 100%. But,
> > for reasons to many to go into here (if you are interested, I can
> > share them with you at a later date), I have discovered God as a very
> > real force in my life.
> >
> > By the simple fact that you have been visiting the Christian news
> > groups, even if it is to bash the contributors, it is clear that you
> > have some interest in relieving your pain. This is why I felt the need
> > to write you.
>
> I would say that was the original reason. That's what I did a lot of,
> originally. I've gotten a lot better now, only occasionally do I go off
> like I did.
>
> > The first thing an intellectual person needs to understand about God,
> > is free will. We are all born with free will. This is proven by our very
> > ability to think. No intelligent person can deny the presence of free
will.
>
> And I won't even try. =)
>
> > That said, let's look at God's role in free will. Free will
> > is a gift from God. In creating us in His own image, he vested
> > us with free minds. This does not mean he hasn't the power to
> > influence our minds directly, it means he has made a promise not to.
>
> > In giving us this gift, he introduced an element of randomness
> > into the universe. This is the price we pay for being individuals.
> > I personally believe that while the price is high, it is much cheaper
> > than the alternative. Living in a random universe means that
> > sometimes horrible things happen. God does not cause these things
> > to happen. Nor does he sit back idle and watch them happen. He has to
> > allow them in accordance with his promise to us.
>
> God allowing them to happen and God sitting back idle are exactly the
> same thing == God does nothing about them. People who ask God to help
> them, have been told their whole lives that Jesus/God/Odin/Zeus/Buddha
> love them and care for them and pray to them and in the end are never
> answered... I mean, c'mon. God serves no functional purpose if he
> doesn't do _anything_.
>
I think your biggest problem here is the idea that praying is supposed
to get you anything you want. This is popular concept for both Atheists,
and less knowledgeable followers. The truth is, God will not grant every
selfish or frivolous request. God does not deny us our free will. He will
only act as a teacher and a consoler. He gives suggestions (even to
non-believers), but does not force the direction of your thoughts. That is
the distinction. He promised not to. He did not say he could not.
>
> > While he has to allow atrocities, he can still provide an
> > opportunity for growth through these events. This is what your
> > victim was referring to. Their major fault was in trying to
> > explain solely in scripture, instead of real life terms. I would
> > guess their message was intended for fellow Christians, not the lost.
>
> The lost. Ho ho ho.
>
> Let's just put it this way... the message that they tried to relay
> was only for those who had no brain. Since they didn't put it in
> real-life terms, didn't even attempt to take on the serious issues
> in life, it's worth nothing. Zip zilch nada. I merely called them on
> it. Well, and a little extra, I suppose.
>
All things are the same. Whether a broken leg, or gang rape, the same
standard applies. While God cannot prevent either without removing free
will, he can be there to help us grow through either experience. I wouldn't
say that a rape is just as bad as a broken leg, I'm only saying that the
same standards of life apply to either.
>
> > You grow from your pain according to your reaction to it.
> > Rage only spawns more rage. If you take the time to explore
> > the core of your anger, and come to terms with it's true cause, you
> > come away from the experience a stronger person. Believe it or not,
> > God can help you in this. He will not magically make the pain go
> > away, that would mean breaking his promise to you. But He can direct
> > you if you are willing to listen to Him.
>
> That's the same thing, though. It's interference. It voids the concept
> of 'free will.' I don't believe God can help me with the anger that
> I am dealing with, because A) I still don't believe he exists as anything
> else than a badly-mutated myth, and B) because it's His followers who
> have fostered this anger in me.
>
Guidance and interference are two different things. He does not force
his guidance on us. That is why so many never hear Him. He only offers it
to us.
If so called followers have fostered anger in you, they were not acting
from God, they were acting on their own misguided ideas. Just because a
person goes to church, it does not mean he speaks for God. I have met many
petty people that showed up for church every Sunday.
Here is an Idea. If you would like to meet people that are doing their
true best to walk the path God has set for them, try visiting a church on a
Wednesday night. You will find that most of the "for show" Christians don't
bother to attend throughout the week. Sunday is enough for them to feel they
have filled their obligation, and to support their self righteousness. Some
of the best services I have ever attended were on a Wednesday night.
Last night, I addressed a question I have had on my heart for some time.
I knew that God had a plan for me, but I could not see what it was through
the self doubt. I was very suprised when the preacher began to speak
specifically about my problem (I hadn't mentioned it to anyone but God). He
told the congregation that he had tried all week, but hadn't been able to
find a subject to preach on, until that night when God showed him what he
needed to say. I was so moved by this obvious sign, that I went to the
alter to pray. I told God that I understood that it might not be time to
understand the long term direction of my life, and ask for Him to at least
show me the first step in the path He had set for me. I also asked him to
give me something to help my self doubt.
My brother in law had come with us last night. He has also had a great
deal of abuse in his life, and lives in a constant depression. He has no
self esteem to speak of. He had spent the day with us, and I had asked him
to come with us, as I often do. He had answered that he would go, but he
planned to sleep through the service.
It wasn't the first time he had come with us, but he never seemed to
show interest. Throughout the service I called attention to several points
the preacher made that I felt were important to his life. Each time I was
rejected. Finally, I had nudged him to get his attention, and the only
answer I gut was a shove.
While at the alter, I said to God, "I know what I feel You want from me,
but I need help. I need to know that I am not only twisting my own self
interest and convincing myself it is Your way. There is someone here that
needs you more than I ever have. If You want these things of me, then open
his heart and bring him up here where he needs to be."
When I had finished and stood, I turned to see him kneeling beside me
crying. I hadn't seen an emotional response, other than anger, from him in
years.
Needless to say, this sort of thing is hard to ignore. If you listen
closely, you will hear God in your life. He will not speak to you with the
great shout most people expect, but with a gentle voice. He is there,
waiting for you to listen. He is the parent who understands that He can't
force you to do what is best. Instead, He waits quietly for you to come to
Him.
>
>
> > I do not expect you to read this and suddenly become "Saved".
>
> Good thing. =)
>
>
> > I know it is different for each person. I only hope this will shed
> > some light on your wonderings. I am confident that you are an
> > intelligent person, and eventually your search will lead you to the
> > inevitable conclusion.
>
> I think your inevitable isn't my inevitable.
>
>
> > In closing, let me just say that no matter what your feelings
> > or actions, God loves you, and so do I. If I can help you in
> > any way, do not hesitate to ask. You can't offend me, and you
> > can not shake my faith (that is the wonderful thing about a well
> > founded relationship with God).
>
> Well, since I can't shake your faith, perhaps you act as an apologist for
> a few seconds?
>
> Why are Christians told to pray to Jesus to make it all better?
> They pray to God for the most frivolous things... to win basketball
> games, to win the lottery, for a girl to fall in love with them,
> for a new car, for a job, etc. Why are they told that God can
> help them with any of these? What happens when it doesn't happen?
> And what happens when they pray to Jesus to save them from a
> terrible evil, and he doesn't? They were told to after all.
> Why wouldn't Jesus save them from all that pain, hurt, death,
> etc.?
>
That is a misunderstanding that simple minds have perpetuated. Jesus
told us that if we believed in Him, nothing would be impossible to us. That
much is true. The difference is, that he does not promise to make it easy.
He is there to guide us to whatever our hearts desire. He will not
magically make it happen. It's like the parent that want their child to get
a college education. They can set up the opportunity, they can give advice,
they can even encourage their child. They cannot cause their child to have
a college education by force. They could try for force the child, but that
would be a violation.
God does not appease our greed. He gives us the opportunity to achieve
what we need in life, and He will never put more on us than we can handle.
>
> That's the crux of my response. When you are told to expect
> something (a gold ring, for example) and what you get is only
> a pale mockery of it (a cigar band, for example) you really
> have to wonder.
>
What you should wonder is, was your request made out of greed, or need?
> Now, a lot of this is second-hand. I don't think I've ever
> prayed to anything to 'make it all better' after the age of
> 12. (before then, I can't honestly remember) But it's an argument
> that has caught massive hold with me, it carries a lot of
> passion, when I see girls that I know raped (for example)
> and the various atrocious Christian responses.
>
An atrocious response is not a Christian one. It is a sociological one.
I am sure that if your friend were to turn to God, He would help her to heal
her wounds. He won't take away her pain in a flash of light, and he won't
turn back time and take away the injury. But He will help her to the path
of resolution, and I am sure that with His help, she could come out of it a
stronger person.
It is my experience that some of the strongest Christians are the ones
that have come to God through a desire to heal their pain.
If your friend experiences shame and alienation at the hands of a
"Christian", she needs to move on and find one that will help her. If she
prays to God to help her to find the help she needs, I am sure He will help
her. I can tell you from experience that he very well could put it on the
heart of someone to help her. He won't command someone to help her, but he
can tell them that she needs the help. If she looks hard enough, she will
find the help she needs.
If you think it will help, or if she is ready, tell her I would be happy
to offer what I can in the way of help.
> Check out a thread I'm posting, on 'Hebrew Storytellers.'
> It just might be interesting, if I can get all the info
> together in the next 15 minutes. (Dinner is over at the dorm
> here in 30) =)
>
> Thank you for your response. My post went off a little
> bit too much, and was probably something that I needed to
> say for a long, long time. While I'm still a little pissed
> off about the whole thing, it isn't one of those personal
> smoldering dream-about-it-at-night-and-plot-revenge things.
>
>
I hope you will consider what I have said. It breaks my heart to see
the damage petty people will do in the name of God. But I hope you will
remember that there is more to it if you are willing to search it out.
I don't remember if I have told you this already, but I have built a
website for my church. I have included our correspondence there. If you
would rather that I didn't, let me know. You are welcome to visit, and
maybe see something you have missed in a Christian faith, happiness and
acceptance.
>
>
> Saul 'Putting the X back in Xtianity' Sabia
> [email protected]
> http://members.tripod.com/saul_sabia
>
>
> _____________________________________________
