Posted by Glamotta [GLamotta] on March 28, 1999 at 10:58:44 {boLUiPtahcaQdT.t9Q9oMW4MSSTtTA17s}:
In Reply to: *New Messianic Truths posted by Joseph Malik on March 28, 1999 at 09:50:10:
Hello Joseph,
I realize we have a different view of the resurrection, which is fine.
All I can do is give you the basis why I personally believe as I stated above. Here are some key points:
1. The Bible, after describing the 1000-year reign and then describing the release of Satan to test those who are alive after the 1000-year reign, then record his death. And THEN after that, we find the "dead the great and the small" before the throne getting judged. Who are the "dead, the great and the samll"? And THEN, after all that, we find the second resurrection being recorded, where death and Hades and the sea give up their dead. If we take the Bible's accounts of these events in STRICT CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER...then it is clear the second resurrection takes place AFTER Satan is released, AFTER Satan is destroyed, and AFTER the "dead the great and the small are judged." To believe these are resurrected before these events, you must introduce an "out of order" exegeticism. I don't believe this can be easily.
2. I believe that specifically the phrases regarding the "fleeing of Heaven and Earth" are critically transitional statements. That is, it is the Bible's way of sort of clearing the slate and establishing that one old "system of things" or phase of things (heaven and earth) has passed and new set of events and circumstances is now being established. But you can't remove the old without referencing the PREVIOUS. This statement about "heaven and earth fleeing" occurs between the destruction of Satan and the placement of the throne for judging.
Note how it reads:
Rev 20:10: "And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they wil be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11. And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne..."
Now just what does this mean, that "heaven and earth fled?" What it means is that there is a new scene here. A new system of things. Satan is dead, that old system is over and this is brand new. That old "heaven and earth" involving Satan has now fled. Now this a new venue and that venue is clearly a set-aside time for Judgment Day.
Thus the phrasing of the fleeing of "heaven and earth" which is symbolic, is TRANSITIONAL. That means it links the event just before it with the event immediately following it, thereby establishing STRICT CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER.
Therefore, there is no option specifically to take the resurrection and this judgment period out of order and replace it during the 1,000-year reign, not that that is in any way implied by the order of these verses.
JUDGMENT DAY is a specific period of time for judging the world. But then AFTER THAT special period, again we find "heaven and earth" fleeing and a new "system of things" being introduced in verse 21:1 when the Second Creative Week begins and god is now making "all things new": "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away...."
What does this mean? Another "heaven and earth" had passed away? It simply means that the previous "system of things", that is JUDGMENT DAY and what needed to be done during that time had been completed and finished, and now a "new heaven and new earth" was to begin.
But again, this is TRANSITIONAL and thus establishes STRICT CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER.
Therefore, there is no room for any exegetical special interpretations that would preempt establishing any resurrection, or particularly, the second general resurrection during the 1000-year reign.
This is all perfectly consistent with the statement at Revelation 20:5 which says: "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)."
That's rather direct, don't you think?
So what does the Bible really teach? It teaches the 144,000 who have a special testing but who are to be kings and priests during the millennium, come to life and are resurrected prior to the millennium. They are to be kings and priests over those who survive Armageddon. These general masses surviving armadeggon, who have not come to "spiritual life" as yet are considered to be "dead" and these are the ones who immediately after Satan is destroyed are the "dead the great and the small" who are logically first judged during judgment day to go to the trees of life. Then after they are judged, just as the scriptures indicate, the general resurrection of the dead occurs and then they are judged.
Now that's not that complicated to understand.
But more importantly, the phrases "heaven and earth fled" in this case, establish a STRICT CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER for these events for Revelation 20 and thus the doctrinal understanding that there is no general resurrection during the millennium and that JUDGEMENT DAY occurs during a special time after the millennium, but before the beginning of the Second Creative Week.
Of course, I understand you may not agree with me on this, Joseph, based upon your special understanding of certain other points, and I'm not going to pretend that some of these points might be a bit complex, but I'm quite comfortable with my beliefs on this case.
In the meantime, your assignment of the meaning to "nations" can be quite subjective. I see no problem with fitting in the resurrection of the nations and the judging of the nations, for instance, prior to the Millennium.
I will offer you this though. My understanding about the calling during the time the Messiah first arrives which is considered a "resurrection" has to do with a spiritual resurrection by knowledge into Jehovah's arrangement. These nations thus are resurrected in this sense. But some of them have a resurrection to life and some have a resurrection to judgment, or death. How is this so?
It's because of the preaching work and certain persons learning about God and his arrangements. In this way, they come to be recognized as having been resurrected. But as the Bible indicates, when the Messiah arrives, some of them beg off. Some of then become rebellious. Thus though having accurate knowledge, they miss out on the opportunity to be approved before God.
This generally addresses the reaping of the grape harvest, where some are harvested and some become the "grapes of wrath" and are destroyed.
This is related to those who might be chosen for being part of the 144,000. All that are invited, however, are not successfully chosen and some forfeit their position with the Messiah and are assigned to Gehenna. Thus their resurrection was one of a resurrection to death.
In this regard, therefore, I would have to say that
the "nations" in this case refer to this specific arrangement in relation to the 144,000.
In this instance, those successful in maintaining their integrity are given eternal life BEFORE the millennium takes place.
But many others, including the "great crowd" from every "nation" and tongue and tribe and people, are approved to enter into the millennium though they are not part of the 144,000. These, not having yet been granted eternal life, in this sense are still considered to be "dead" in the ultimate spiritual sense.
So there clearly is a "resurrection" of many when the Messiah first comes in the sense of inviting those to partake of the opportunity to become of the Bride Class and these are considered in this sense to be "resurrected", but everyone does not make it into that special arrangement, whether or not the 144,000 number is symbolic or literal. Those who had been called and then fail their calling are assigned to Gehenna and are said to have a "resurrection to judgment." If this special group is also termed "the nations" then so be it in this context.
But this group does not include the vast majority of mankind who enter the millennium on a different basis. These others do not "come to life", that is, do not get rewarded eternal life until after the millennium is over and after they have been tested by Satan for a short while.
So I don't see any problem with allowing the Bible to assign certain terms such as "tribes of the earth" which specifically refer to the woman, Christ's Bride, or even "the nations" as being a limited and focussed reference to those within a certain arrangement. "Nations" and "tribes" thus may be reflective of the makeup of this limited group, more than a broad inclusion of all of mankind.
I will look at this further and if I have any additoinal comments I'll make them.
But as far as Revelation 20 goes, the strict phraseology of "heaven and earth" passing away require strict chronological order and therefore reintroducing the general resurrection during the millennium is NON-NEGOTIABLE....as far as I'm concerned.
Of course, you're welcome to have your own view...this is just mine.
GLamotta