Posted by Joseph Malik [JosephMalik] on March 28, 1999 at 17:56:00 {kwPNhmZ1ioK.s8WU73igMWKwtN58YgBC6}:
In Reply to: ***New Messianic Truths posted by Joseph Malik on March 28, 1999 at 14:20:44:
>>2. I believe that specifically the phrases regarding the "fleeing of Heaven and Earth" are critically transitional statements. That is, it is the Bible's way of sort of clearing the slate and establishing that one old "system of things" or phase of things (heaven and earth) has passed and new set of events and circumstances is now being established. But you can't remove the old without referencing the PREVIOUS. This statement about "heaven and earth fleeing" occurs between the destruction of Satan and the placement of the throne for judging.
Gary,
It is not just the previous verse but the previous vision that is being referenced.
>>Note how it reads:
>>Rev 20:10: "And the Devil who was
misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11. And I saw a great white throne and the one seated
on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne..."
>>Now just what does this mean, that "heaven and earth fled?" What it means is that there is a new scene here.
This much is true.
>>A new system of things. Satan is dead, that old system is over and this is brand new. That old "heaven and earth" involving Satan has now fled. Now this a new venue and that venue is clearly a set-aside time for Judgment Day.
This much is a contradiction as you restrict the application to the prior verse and not the prior vision. If Satan is now dead, who will mislead the ones yet to be resurrected? How will they be tested? The purpose for binding Satan in the first place was to prevent him from misleading the Nations any further not the Saints. Did you miss this point?
>>Thus the phrasing of the fleeing of "heaven and earth" which is symbolic, is TRANSITIONAL. That means it links the event just before it with the event immediately following it, thereby establishing STRICT CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER.
So we have replaced this vision with another that provides more detail, starting once again at the beginning not one that follows it chronologically. The verses that follow show there are more people in this kingdom than the ones that were eventually deceived.
>>Therefore, there is no option specifically to take the resurrection and this judgment period out of order and replace it during the 1,000-year reign, not that that is in any way implied by the order of these verses.
Not out of order. Parallel to it just as most of the revelation is written going from scene to scene covering them from more than one perspective.
>>JUDGMENT DAY is a specific period of time for judging the world.
Good so far.
>>But then AFTER THAT special period, again we find "heaven and earth" fleeing and a new "system of things" being introduced in verse 21:1 when the Second Creative Week begins and god is now making "all things new": "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away...."
But now you have the sea giving up the dead in them for what purpose? How are they to undergo judgement or do they simply walk into the kingdom somehow free without any further obligations, restrictions or training?
>>What does this mean? Another "heaven and earth" had passed away? It simply means that the previous "system of things", that is JUDGMENT DAY and what needed to be done during that time had been completed and finished, and now a "new heaven and new earth" was to begin.
Why are the 144,000 judged during judgement day? Do not the scriptures teach this:
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
And why do you teach that more are made alive afterward to be judged separately? What test do they undergo or exactly what kind of judgement do they receive?
>>But again, this is TRANSITIONAL and thus establishes STRICT CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER.
Transitional, yes, chronological no.
>>Therefore, there is no room for any exegetical special interpretations that would preempt establishing any resurrection, or particularly, the second general resurrection during the 1000-year reign.
There is no support for your view and no special interpretation is needed. God has committed all judging to his Son as the scripture says. John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Are we to understand that this not completed until well after the 1000 years ends? When they does he hand over the kingdom to His Father? Before the job is finished?
>>This is all
perfectly consistent with the statement at Revelation 20:5 which says: "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)."
>>That's rather direct, don't you think?
I have stated what I think. The verse
is about justification not resurrection. That is why the word anastasis commonly used for resurrection was not used regarding the rest of the dead. What was used is: 326 anazao {an-ad-zah'-o} which means among other things "to be restored
to a correct life or of one who returns to a better moral state." (Stong's OnLineBible reference)
>>So what does the Bible really teach? It teaches the 144,000 who have a special testing but who are to be kings and priests during
the millennium, come to life and are resurrected prior to the millennium. They are to be kings and priests over those who survive Armageddon. These general masses surviving armadeggon, who have not come to "spiritual life" as yet are
considered to be "dead" and these are the ones who immediately after Satan is destroyed are the "dead the great and the small" who are logically first judged during judgment day to go to the trees of life. Then after they are judged, just
as the scriptures indicate, the general resurrection of the dead occurs and then they are judged.
>>Now that's not that complicated to understand.
No one will survive armageddon Gary, you still teach a false Watchtower view. As this is
a critical point I do expect good scriptural evidence for this teaching. There should be plenty of proof for it found in Watchtower literature. Everyone must die, no exceptions. That is what really is taught is scripture notice:
1
Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but
after this the judgment:
The 144,000 are not judged as you teach. What the scriptures really teach is this:
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
While the term angels in this case is a reference to resurrected ones the way Jesus referred to them, the 144,000 are already judged and have passed over from death to life and are justified even before they leave their earthly tent. They will be right here on earth with the rest of the dead. That is what the kingdom is all about and how it will function for the good of all mankind.
Joseph