Posted by Gary [GLamotta] on March 31, 1999 at 02:59:20 {ohFII14TUcMRXA6xmpscboLUiPtahc}:
In Reply to: *****New Messianic Truths posted by Joseph Malik on March 29, 1999 at 15:24:46:
Hello Joseph,
I'll try to answer your questions, the best I can:
Why do you understand that millions survive Armageddon?
Because it seems logical.
What is your scriptural basis for this
belief? Please include all
verses and your explanation of them. Or in other words.
I'm going to answer this question, but you
can't frame the reply by your specifics
since it is specific. In other words,
you want me to show where "Jesus"
taught
certain things in certain places, but the
reference may be to Paul's writings, etc.
So I will dismiss your superimpositional
outline if you don't mind, but deal with
this after each question, so that you know
I'm
not skipping anything.
Where did Jesus teach such a thing and will you explain such verses?
SUPERIMPOSITIONAL, SKIPPED... You're not allowing
me to frame my answer. Jesus may not have
spoken of this specifically, but
that doesn't
mean it's Biblical so this is limiting my
response. But your question is valid.
Where did the apostles and disciples teach such a thing and will you explain such verses?
This is also precharacterization of my
answer.
It's not your position to preframe my response.
You're presupposing my response.
Where else in scripture is such a thing taught and what is your explantion of such verses.
Again, your specific questions are not
allowing
me to answer the question. You're forcing my
answer to follow an outline, but I understand
you want specific references.
To the above questions, I am combining them
into one based upon the first question
which
is what are the scriptural basis for my belief
in millions of persons surviving Armageddon.
1. Revelation 20:1 says that Satan was abyssed so that he was not able to mislead the "nations" any longer. Revelation 4 talks about the first resurrection which involves kings and priests who will be judges and it says the "rest of the dead" did not come to life until the 1000 years were ended. So this indicates at least there was some other group called "nations" who survive armageddon. How many people these nations represent, is a presumption.
2. Revelation 7:9 speaks of a "great crowd" that no man can number, out of all the NATIONS, who have white robes. I don't consider these part of the Bride Class and so they must be part of the "nations" who survive Armageddon. I specifically believe these represent the approved of Jehovah's Witnesses who are the priestly spiritual organization. This group even though large, specifically is said to come out of the "great tribulation" and I believe this means the special testing and tribulation that would come upon Jehovah's Witnesses because of their special arrangement as the "temple organization." But I would suppose this would represent a minority of those who would survive Armageddon, since this particular slave organization, the "sluggish slave" organization is said not to have produced much fruitage. (see next)
3. In two places in scripture the Bible makes mention of Jesus assigning 10 slaves and then 3 slaves to do business. In each case, the last slave produces only was was invested which was given to one of the other slaves who produced according to their ability. I assign this sluggish slave to the JW ministry, who produces little. However, this suggests and implies to me that many other slaves would produce lots of fruit and thus whatever they produced would be in larger quantity than the sluggish slave's productivity. So let's say if the JWs ultimately produced 5 million, based upon say about 2/3rds, then what the rest of the world produces must be into the tens of millions.
So those are my scriptures on that point. The main one being that Revelation mentions NATIONS present when Satan is destroyed and I would imagine that would be a large number.
Where then does the kingdom you preach fit into your chronology.
The semantics of the "kingdom" here might be considered as to what you mean by the "kingdom." I think it has to follow the context of what is meant. After all, even before the kingdom is established in heaven, some of the anointed are said to be part of the "kingdom" in the overall, etc. So specifically, I don't separate or limit that term. I have to see each reference.
Is the kingdom included in your "last day?" Please include all scriptural support for your view.
Again, you are pre-limiting
my concept because of your concept of "kingdom." Thus I will be specific. There is a general concept of kingdom and there is a specific activity of the kingdom when it is set up in heaven. It was set up in heaven in 1992. In that sense,
that is my chronology for the "kingdom" as far as when it begins to rule in heaven and Satan is kicked out of heaven to the earth. In this case, the "last day" does encompass the initial set-up in heaven.
My general reference for the
"last day", such as mentioned in Daniel, the last verse, is that it is the "last day" before the Millennium.
Is the kingdom included in your understanding of the 1000 years? Please include all scriptural
support for your
view.
Yes, the kingdom is included in the 1000 years.
Revelation 20:6 says that Jesus would rule with the 144,000 for the thousand years, and that is part of the "kingdom."
Is the kingdom included in your understanding of
judgement day which you belive occurs after the
1000 years?
Yes. The "kingdom" is to last forever. Daniel 2:44.
Please include all scriptural support for your view.
I did.
Since you have "last day" "1000 years"
and Judgement day" sequential as I understood it and this is
a key element of your teaching, exactly when during all such events does Christ's kingdom begin and
when does it end? Please include all verses and your explanation of
them.
Ummm, the "kingdom" in the sense of being established in heaven first, does happen before the millennium as you know, which Revelation brings out, there is a war and Satan is cast to the earth. So this is before the millennium. Rev. 12 talks about that. Then the kingdom continues to have different phases per what happens from then on.
Revelation 20 explains the millennium and what happens after that, then Revelation 21 continues on after that. So the "kingdom" is set up in heaven first and then it continues to reign...forever.
We can insist all day that things are this way or that but let everyone see exactly why we offer our
views.
I agree.
Let everyone see on
what they are based and allow them to decide for themselves what they
should believe and/or teach.
I agree.
After all the responsibility for what we teach others is ours and ours alone.
I agree.
And on such
teachings we will be judged faithful or evil whatever the case may be.
Joseph
I agree.
I hope I answered your specific questions, but the way you posed the questions were so restrictive, so I hope you don't mind if I just give you a general, non-scriptural view of how I see things.
Basically, I believe these "ten slaves" and "three slaves" represent a collective group of "ministries" that produce a certain kind of individual, that may not be necessarily "Christian". Remember, Jesus says that at one point he would "reap where he did not sow." Does that mean...what? Does his "sowing" suggest Christianity? Certainly we cannot exclude that.
Thus it is possible that he will reap from Budhists, and Muslims and a lot of other religions who will survive Armageddon.
They don't need to know the truth, just display a certain personality trait that is conducive to Jehovah's arrangement. Then, during the 1000 years, all these people will be taught by the Bride Class whatever they need to know.
These are the basically "decent" folk who seem to need to rescue people in disaster areas, who have humanitarian interests at heart, but who may not be Christian, since really, how many of those have no benefit from their religion if they don't follow it's teachings? Certainly being a witness doesn't help much, either, right? So why would God condemn persons far nobler than those worshipping men?
He won't. We know that from his principles and his personality as revealed in scripture.
So I think, basically, most of the meek persons in the earth who are alive at Armageddon might get in.
The 1000 years will be for a special purpose, under a special theocratic rule in the absence of Satan to see what effect those who know and understand God's requirements, are perfect and living under a righteous society, will then end up doing after Satan's influence.
Of course, these persons will also have children as well. It will be a happy time and it is very near!
That's my overview.