Since responding a reply to the Shepherdic Jew Salaudinnynj many muslims complained to the moderator who was a religious bigot and a dickhead who in desperate spite erased the entire Ummah thread so nobody could read these Revelations.

Starjade however salvaged this thread and it is now displayed here and it is a very good read. Starjade was banned from writing on that forum as no Muslim could defend Islam against the Revelations of the much loved Doomsday prophet Starjade.

Starjade challenged Islam and Islam lost.
Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb and Islam bit the dust.

> deut telling of muhammeds coming.for sj shes done.
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Author Comment salaudinnynj Member Posts: 448 (9/4/04 1:28 am) Deut telling of muhammeds coming.for sj shes done. i urge all people to really read this then tell us muslims whos rigth concerning this.the prophet warned to come in deut was it really jesus as christains claim or muhammed?read it all and see without a doubt it was muhammed.it is a bit long,but it is established without an inch of a doubt even the bible old and new test prophecised muhammeds coming.this should open iris eyes and starjade shes sick alays quoting deut.even deut mentions muhammeds coming. "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (HOLY BIBLE) Deuteronomy 18:18. 1. Muhummed is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5:16. The Hebrew word used there is Muhammuddim. The end letters IM is plural of respect majesty and grandeur. Minus "im" the name would be Muhamud translated as "altogether lovely" in the Authorised Version of the Bible or 'The Praised One' 'the one worthy of Praise' i.e. MUHUMMED!(P.B.U.H) 2. If this booklet is translated into any language, please change the Afrikaans words into the local dialect; and do not try a free hand translation of the Biblical quotation. Obtain a Bible in the language in which translation is being made and transcribe exactly as the words occur in that Bible. Prophet Like Moses Having recited the verse in Afrikaans, I apologised for my uncertain pronunciation, The dominee assured me that I was doing fine. I enquired: "To whom does this prophecy refer?" Without the slightest hesitation he answered: "JESUS!" I asked: "Why Jesus?... his name is not mentioned here." The dominee replied: "Since prophecies are word-pictures of something that is going to happen in the future, we find that the wordings of this verse adequately describe him. You see the most important words of this prophecy are 'SOOS JY IS' (like unto thee), - LIKE YOU - like Moses, and Jesus is like Moses. I questioned: "In which way is Jesus like Moses?" The answer was: "In the first place Moses was a JEW and Jesus was also a JEW; secondly, Moses was a PROPHET and Jesus was also a PROPHET - therefore Jesus is like Moses and that is exactly what God had foretold Moses - "SOOS JY IS". "Can you think of any other similarities between Moses and Jesus?" I asked. The dominee said that he could not think of any. I replied: "If these are the only two criteria for discovering a candidate for this prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18, then in that case the criteria could fit any one of the following Biblical personages after Moses:- Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc., because they were also ALL "Jews" as well as "Prophets". Why should we not apply this prophecy to any one of these prophets, and why only to Jesus? Why should we make fish of one and fowl of another?" The dominee had no reply. I continued: "You see, my conclusions are that Jesus is most unlike Moses, and if I am wrong I would like you to correct me." Three Unlikes So saying, I reasoned with him: "In the FIRST place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to You - 'JESUS IS A GOD', but Moses is not God. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses! "SECONDLY, according to You - 'JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD', but Moses did not have to die for the sins of the world. Is this true?" He again said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!" "THIRDLY, according to You - 'JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS', but Moses did not have to go there. Is this true?" He answered meekly: "Y-e-s." I concluded: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!" "But dominee," I continued: "these are not hard facts, solid facts, they are mere matters of belief over which the little ones can stumble and fall. Let us discuss something very simple, very easy that if your little ones are called in to hear the discussion, would have no difficulty in following it, shall we?" The dominee was quiet happy at the suggestion. CHAPTER TWO Eight Irrefutable Arguments Father and Mother (1) "Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "DAAROM IS JESUS NIE SOOS MOSES NIE, MAAR MUHUMMED IS SOOS MOSES!" Meaning: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses!" (By now the reader will realise that I was using the Afrikaans language only for practice purposes. I shall discontinue its use in this narration). Miraculous Birth (2) "Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle. You will recall that we are told in the Gospel of St. Matthew 1:18 ".....BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER,(Joseph the Carpenter and Mary) SHE WAS FOUND WITH CHILD BY THE HOLY GHOST." And St.Luke tells us that when the good news of the birth of a holy son was announced to her, Mary reasoned: "...HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? AND THE ANGEL ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HER, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE..." (Luke 1:35). The Holy Qur'an confirms the miraculous birth of Jesus, in nobler and sublimer terms. In answer to her logical question: " O MY LORD! HOW SHALL I HAVE A SON WHEN NO MAN HATH TOUCHED ME? " The angel says in reply: "EVEN SO: ALLAH CREATETH WHAT HE WILLETH: WHEN HE HATH DECREED A PLAN, HE BUT SAITH TO IT "BE," AND IT IS " 1 (HOLY QUR'AN, 3:47). It is not necessary for God to plant a seed in man or animal. He merely wills it and it comes into being. This is the Muslim conception of the of birth of Jesus. (When I compared the Qur'an and the Biblical versions of the birth of Jesus to the head of the Bible Society in our largest City, and when I enquired: "Which version would you prefer to give your daughter, the QUR'ANIC version or the BIBLICAL version?" The man bowed his head and answered: "The Qur'anic.") In short, I said to the dominee: "Is it true that Jesus was born miraculously as against the natural birth of Moses and Muhummed?" He replied proudly: "Yes!" I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses. And God says to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy 18:18 "LIKE UNTO THEE" (Like You, Like Moses) and Muhummed is like Moses." 1. Please open the Holy Qur'an 3:42 and 19:16 where the birth of Jesus is spoken about; read it with the commentry, note the high position which Jesus and his mother occupy in Islam. Marriage Ties (3) "Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses." Jesus Rejected by his People (4) "Moses and Muhummed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Muhummed's life impossible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah. But according to the Bible: 'He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.' (John 1:11). And even today, after two thousand years, his people- the Jews, as a whole, have rejected him. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT LIKE MOSES, BUT MUHUMMED IS LIKE MOSES." "Other-Wordly" Kingdom (5) "Moses and Muhummed were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of Man and this Guidance he conveys to God's creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment - HE IS A KING. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day, and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Muhummed too, had the power of life and death over his people. There are instances in the Bible of persons who were given gift of prophecy only, but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their message, were the prophets lot, Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, and John the Baptist. They could only deliver the message, but could not enforce the Law. The Holy Prophet Jesus (Peace p.b.u.h) also belonged to this category. The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this: when Jesus was dragged before the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, Charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defence to refute the false charge: JESUS ANSWERED, "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD': IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD, THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, THAT I SHOULD NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS; BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE" (John 18:36) This convinced Pilate (A Pagan) that though Jesus might not be in full possession of his mental faculty, he did not strike him as being a danger to his rule. Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a Prophet. Is this true?" The dominee answered: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses." No New Laws (6) "Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-mothers; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATION.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form. "From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, "into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREAT SECTION OF THE WORLD. ..." The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before. As regards Jesus, when the Jews felt suspicious of him that he might be an impostor with designs to pervert their teachings, Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion - no new laws and no new regulations. I quote his own words: 'THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.'(Mathew 5:17-18). In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfil the old law. This what he gave the Jews to understand- unless he was speaking with the tongue in his cheek trying to bluff the Jews into accepting him as a man of God and by subterfuge trying to ram a new religion down their throats. No! This Messenger of God would never resort to such fo ul means to subvert the Religion of God. He himself fulfilled the laws. He observed the commandments of Moses, and he respected the Sabbath. At no time did a single Jew point a finger at him to say, 'why don't you fast' or 'why don't you wash your hands before you break bread',which charges they always levied against his disciples, but never against Jesus. This is because as a good Jew he honoured the laws of the prophets who preceded him. In short, he had created no new religion and had brought no new law like Moses and Muhummed. Is this true?" I asked the dominee, and he answered: "Yes." I said: "Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses." How they Departed (7) "Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross.1 Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I averred: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses." Heavenly Abode (8) "Moses and Muhummed both lie buried in earth, but according to you, Jesus in heaven. Is this true?" The dominee agreed. I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses." 1. For a full exposition of this topic, see "CRUCIFIXION OR CRUCI-FICTION?". CHAPTER THREE Further Proofs Ishmael The First Born Since the dominee was helplessly agreeing with every point, I said, "Dominee, so far what I have done is to prove only one point out of the whole prophecy- that is proving the phrase 'LIKE UNTO THEE' - 'Like You' - 'Like Moses'. The Prophecy is much more than this single phrase which reads as follows : "I WILL RAISE THEM UP A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN LIKE UNTO THEE......." The emphasis is on the words- "From among their brethren." Moses and his people, the Jews, are here addressed as a racial entity, and as such their 'brethren' would undoubtedly be the Arabs. You see, the Holy Bible speaks of Abraham as the "Friend of God". Abraham had two wives - Sarah and Hagar. Hagar bore Abraham a son - HIS FIRST-BORN- '......And Abraham1 called HIS SON'S name, which Hagar bare Ishmael.' (Genesis 16:15). 'And Abraham took Ishmael HIS SON......" (Genesis 17:23). 'And Ishmael HIS SON was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.'(Genesis 17:25). Up to the age of THIRTEEN Ishmael was the ONLY son and seed of Abraham, when the covenant was ratified between God and Abraham. God grants Abraham another son through Sarah, named Isaac, who was very much the junior to his brother Ishmael. 1. According to the Bible, Abraham's name was Abram before it was changed by God to Abraham. Arabs and Jews If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHREN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the Children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are BRETHREN to one another. The Bible affirms, 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.' (Genesis 16:12). 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.(Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhummed is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it- 'FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN'.(Deut.18:18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the 'children of Israel' or from 'among themselves', but from among their brethren. MUHUMMED THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN! Words in the Mouth "The prophecy proceeds further:'.......AND I WILL PUT MY WORDS INTO HIS MOUTH.......' What does it mean when it is said 'I will put my words in your mouth'? You see, when I asked you (the dominee) to open Deuteronomy chapter 18, verse 18, at the beginning, and if I had asked you to read, and if you had read: would I be putting my words into your mouth?" The dominee answered: "No." "But," I continued: "If I were to teach you a language like Arabic about which you have no knowledge, and if I asked you to read or repeat after me what I utter i.e. Would I not be putting these unheard words of a foreign tongue which you utter, into your mouth?" The dominee agreed that it was indeed so. In an identical manner, I said, the words of the Holy Qur'an, the Revelation vouchsafed by the Almighty God to Muhummed, were revealed. History tells us that Muhummed was forty years of age. He was in a cave some three miles north of the City of Mecca. It was the 27th night of the Muslim month of Ramadaan. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue: 'IQRA' which means READ! or PROCLAIM! or RECITE! Muhummed is terrified and in his bewilderment replies " MA ANA BEQARA which means I AM NOT LEARNED! The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues. Now Muhummed, grasps, that what was required of him was to repeat! to rehearse! And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth: These are the first five verses which were revealed to Muhummed which now occupy the beginning of the 96th chapter of the Holy Qur'an. The Faithful Witness Immediately the angel had departed, Muhummed rushed to his home. Terrified and sweating all over he asked his beloved wife Khadija to 'cover him up!' He lay down, and she watched by him. When he had regained his composure, he explained to her what he had seen and heard. She assured him of her faith in him and that Allah would not allow any terrible thing to happen to him. Are these the confessions of an impostor? Would impostors confess that when an angel of the Lord confronts them with a Message from on High, they get fear-stricken, terrified, and sweating all over, run home to their wives? Any critic can see that his reactions and confessions are that of an honest, sincere man, the man of Truth- 'AL-AMIN' - THE Honest, the Upright, the Truthful. During the next twenty-three years of his prophetic life, words were 'Put into his mouth', and he uttered them. They made an indeliable impression on his heart and mind: and as the volume of the Sacred Scripture (Holy Qur'an) grew, they were recorded on palm-leaf fibre, on skins and on the shoulder-blades of animals; and in the hearts of his devoted disciples. Before his demise these words were arranged according to his instructions i n the order in which we find them today in the Holy Qur'an. The words (revelation) were actually put into his mouth, exactly as foretold in the prophecy under discusion: 'AND I WILL PUT MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH.' (Deut. 18:18). Un-lettered Prophet Muhummed's experience in the cave of Hira, later to be known as Jabal-un Noor - The Mountain of Light, and his response to that first Revelation is the exact fulfilment of another Biblical Prophecy. In the Book of Isaiah, Chapter 29, verse 12, we read: "AND THE BOOK" (al-Kitaab,al-Quran the 'Reading', the 'Recitation') "IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED," (Isaiah 29:12) "THE UNLETTERED PROPHET " (Holy Qur'an 7:158) and the biblical verse continues : "SAYING, READ THIS, I PRAY THEE:" (the words "I pray thee", are not in the Hebrew manuscripts; compare with the Roman Catholics' "Douay Version and also with the "Revised Standard Versions") "AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." ("I am not learned." is the exact translation of the Arabic words MA ANA BEQARA which Muhummed uttered twice to the Holy Ghost - the Archangel Gabriel, when he was commanded : IQRAA "READ!"). Let me quote the verse in full without a break as found in the "King James Version," or the "Authorised version" as it is more popularly known "AND THE BOOK IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED, SAYING, READ THIS I PRAY THEE: AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." (Isaiah 29:12). Important note : It may be noted that there were no Arabic Bibles in existence in the 6th Century of the Christian Era when Muhummed lived and preached! Besides, he was absolutely unlettered and unlearned. No human had ever taught him a word. His teacher was his Creator: Without any human learning, 'he put to shame the wisdom of the learned'." (12) There are today Arabic Bibles in Fourteen different scripts and dialects for the Arabs alone. See "The Gospels in many tongues". Grave Warning "See!" I told the dominee, "how the prophecies fit Muhummed like a glove. We do not have to stretch prophecies to justify their fulfilment in Muhummed." The dominee replied, "All your expositions sound very well, but they are of no real consequence, because we Christians have Jesus Christ the "incarnate" God, who has redeemed us from the Bondage of Sin!" I asked, "Not important?" God didn't think so! He went to a great deal of trouble to have His warnings recorded. God knew that there would be people like you who will flippantly, light-heartedly discount his words, so he followed up Deuteronomy 18:18 with a dire warning: "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, " (it is going to happen) "THAT WHOSOEVER WILL NOT HEARKEN UNTO MY WORDS WHICH HE SHALL SPEAK IN MY NAME, I WILL REQUIRE IT OF HIM. (in the Catholic Bible the ending words are - "I will be the revenger", I will take vengeance from him - I will take revenge!) "Does not this terrify you? God Almighty is threatening revenge! We shake in our pants if some hoodlum threathens us, yet you have no fear of God's warning?" "Miracle of Miracles! in the verse 19 of Deuteronomy chapter 18, we have a further fulfilment of the prophecy in Muhummed! Note the words-'.....MY WORDS WHICH HE SHALL SPEAK IN MY NAME," In whose name is Muhummed speaking?" I opened Yusuf Ali's translation of the Holy Qur'an, at chapter 114- 'Sura Nas', or Mankind - the last chapter, and showed him the formula at the head of the chapter: and the meaning: "IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL." And the heading of chapter 113: and the meaning: "IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL". And every chapter downwards 112 , 111, 110.......was the same formula and the same meaning on every page, because the end SURAS (chapters) are short and take about a page each. "And what did the prophecy demand?' ......WHICH HE SHALL SPEAK IN MY NAME and in whose name does Muhummed speak? 'IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS MOST MERCIFUL.' The Prophecy is being fulfilled in Muhummed to the letter "Every chapter of the Holy Qur'an except the 9th begin with the formula: IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL.' The Muslim begins his every lawful act with the Holy formula. But the Christian begins: "In the name of the Father, son and holy ghost.'"1 Concerning Deuteronomy chapter eighteen, I have given you more than 15 reasons as to how this prophecy refers to Muhummed and NOT to Jesus. 1. The Christian theologians are ignorant of even the "name of God. Because "God" is not a name, and "Father" is also not a name. See what is his name>jamaat.net/name/nameintro.htm CHAPTER FOUR New Testament Also Confirms Baptist Contradicts Jesus In New Testament times, we find that the Jews were still expecting the fulfilment of the prophecy of 'ONE LIKE MOSES', refer John 1:19-25. When Jesus claimed to be the Messiah of the Jews, the Jews began to enquire as to where was Elias? The Jews had a parallel prophecy that before the coming of the Messiah, Elias must come first in his second coming. Jesus confirms this Jewish belief: ".......ELIAS TRULY SHALL FIRST COME, AND RESTORE ALL THINGS. BUT I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT ELIAS IS COME ALREADY, AND THEY KNEW HIM NOT,...THEN THE DISCIPLES UNDERSTOOD THAT HE SPAKE UNTO THEM OF JOHN THE BAPTIST." (Matthew 17:11-13). According to the New Testament the Jews were not the ones to swallow the words of any would-be Messiah. In their investigations they underwent intense difficulties in order to find their true Messiah. And this the Gospel of John confirms: "AND THIS IS THE RECORD OF JOHN,"(the Baptist) "WHEN THE JEWS SENT PRIESTS AND LEVITES FROM JERUSALEM TO ASK HIM, WHO ART THOU? AND HE CONFESSED AND DENIED NOT; BUT CONFESSED, I AM NOT THE CHRIST." (This was only natural because there can't be two Messiahs1 at the same time. If Jesus was the Christ then John couldn't be the Christ!) "AND THEY ASKED HIM, WHAT THEN? ART THOU ELIAS? AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT." (Here John the Baptist contradicts Jesus! Jesus says that John is "Elias" and John denies that he is what Jesus ascribes him to be. One of the TWO (Jesus or John), God forbid!, is definitely not speaking the TRUTH! On the testimony of Jesus himself, John the Baptist was the greatest of the Israelite prophets: "VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, AMONG THEM THAT ARE BORN OF WOMEN THERE HAS NOT RISEN A GREATER THAN JOHN THE BAPTIST:... "(Matthew 11:11). We Muslims know John the Baptist as Hazrut YAHYAA Alai-his-salaam (peace be upon him). We revere him as a true prophet of Allah. The Holy Prophet Jesus known to us as Hazrut ISAA Alai-his-salaam (peace be upon him), is also esteemed as one of the mightiest messenger of the Almighty. How can we Muslims impute lies to either of them? We leave this problem between Jesus and John for the Christians to solve, for their "sacred scriptures" abound in discrepancies which they have been glossing over as the "dark sayings of Jesus"(15). We Muslims are really interested in the last questions posed to John the Baptist by the Jewish elite- "ART THOU THAT PROPHET? AND HE ANSWERED, NO." (John 1:21) 1. The Jews were expecting a single Messiah not two. 2. See the "TIMES" Magazine December 30th, 1974, article "How true is the Bible?" And also see "50,000 Errors in the Bible?" a reproduction from the Christian Magazine "AWAKE!" September 8, 1957. Three Questions! Please note that three different and distinct questions were posed to John the Baptist and to which he gave three emphatic "NO'S" as answers. To recapitulate:- 1) ART THOU THE CHRIST? 2) ART THOU ELIAS? 3) ART THOU THAT PROPHET? But the learned men of Christendom somehow only see two questions implied here. To make doubly clear that the Jews definitely had T-H-R-E-E separate prophecies in their minds when they were interrogating John the Baptist, let us read the remonstrance of the Jews in the verses following: "AND THEY ASKED HIM, AND SAID UNTO HIM, WHY BAPTIZEST THOU THEN, IF THOU BE a) NOT THAT CHRIST, b) NOR ELIAS, c) NEITHER THAT PROPHET?" (John 1:25) The Jews were waiting for the fulfilment of THREE distinct prophecies: One, the coming of CHRIST. Two the coming of ELIAS, and Three, the coming of THAT PROPHET. "That Prophet" If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, the we will find in the marginal note where the words "the Prophet", or "that Prophet" occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that 'that prophet' - 'the prophet like Moses' - "LIKE UNTO THEE", we have proved through overwhelming evidence that he was MUHUMMED and not Jesus! We Muslims are not denying that Jesus was the "Messiah", which word is translated as "Christ".1 We are not contesting the "thousand and one prophecies" which the Christians claim abound in the Old Testament foretelling the coming of the Messiah. What we say is that Deuteronomy 18:18 does NOT refer to Jesus Christ but it is an explicit prophecy about the Holy Prophet MUHUMMED!" The dominee, very politely parted with me by saying that it was a very interesting discussion and he would like me very much to come one day and address his congregation on the subject. A decade and half has passed since then but I am still awaiting that privilege. I believe the dominee was sincere when he made the offer, but prejudices die hard and who would like to loose his sheep? 1. How the word Messiah was transmuted to Christ?. See "Christ in Islam" The Acid Test To the lambs of Christ I say, why not apply that acid test which the Master himself wanted you to apply to any would be claimant to prophethood? He had said: "BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM. DO MEN GATHER GRAPES FROM THE THORNS, OR FIGS FROM THE THISTLES? EVERY GOOD TREE WILL BEAR GOOD FRUIT AND EVERY EVIL TREE WILL BEAR EVIL FRUIT....BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM. (Matthew 7:16-20). Why are you afraid to apply this test to the teachings of Muhummed? You will find in the Last Testament of God - the Holy Qur'an - the true fulfilment of the teachings of Moses and Jesus which will bring to the world the much-needed peace and happiness. "IF A MAN LIKE MOHAMED WERE TO ASSUME THE DIC TATORSHIP OF THE MODERN WORLD, HE WOULD SUCCEED IN SOLVING ITS PROBLEMS THAT WOULD BRING IT THE MUCH NEEDED PEACE AND HAPPINESS." (George Bernard Shaw) The Greatest! The Weekly Newsmagazine "TIME" dated July 15, 1974, carried a selection of opinions by various historians, writers, military men, businessmen and others on the subject: "Who Were History's Great Leaders?" Some said that it was Hitler; others said - Gandhi, Buddha, Lincoln and the like. But Jules Masserman, a United States psychoanalyst put the standards straight by giving the correct criteria wherewith to judge. He said: "LEADERS MUST FULFIL THREE FUNCTIONS:- (1) Provide for the well-being of the led, (2) Provide a social organization in which people feel relatively secure and (3) Provide them with one set of beliefs." With the above three criteria he searches history and analyses - Hitler, Pasteur, Gaesar, Moses, Confucius and the lot, and ultimately concludes: "PEOPLE LIKE PASTEUR AND SALK ARE LEADERS IN THE FIRST SENSE. PEOPLE LIKE GANDHI AND CONFUCIUS, ON ONE HAND, AND ALEXANDER, CAESAR AND HITLER ON THE OTHER, ARE LEADERS IN THE SECOND AND PERHAPS THE THIRD SENSE. JESUS AND BUDDHA BELONG IN THE THIRD CATEGORY ALONE. PERHAPS THE GREATEST LEADER OF ALL TIMES WAS MOHAMMED, WHO COMBINED ALL THREE FUNCTIONS. To a lesser degree, MOSES DID THE SAME." According to the objective standards set by the Professor of the Chicago University, whom I believe to be Jewish, - JESUS and BUDDHA are now - here in the picture of the "Great Leaders of Mankind", but by a queer coincidence groups Moses and Muhummed together thus adding further weight to the argument that JESUS is not like MOSES, but MUHUMMED is like MOSES: Deut.18:18 "LIKE UNTO THEE" - Like MOSES! Reverend James L. Dow in Collins Dictionary of the Bible gives further proof, that JESUS is not like MOSES, but MUHUMMED is like Moses: "AS A STATESMAN AND LAWGIVER MOSES IS THE CREATOR OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE. HE FOUND A LOOSE CONGLOMERATION OF SEMITIC PEOPLE, NONE OF ...... *Also in "THE ENCYCLOPAEDIA OF RELIGION", Moses is looked upon in the different traditions. Under Moses in Islam; we read "MOSES IS HIGHLY REGARDED IN ISLAM AS THE GREAT PROPHET WHO FORETOLD THE COMING OF MUHAMMAD, HIS SUCCESSOR...THERE IS MUCH IN THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD THAT IS IMPLICITLY REMINISCENT OF THE MOSES TRADITION. P121, THE ENCYCLOPAEDIA OF RELIGION, Mircea Eliade (EDITOR IN CHIEF) Volume 10, Macmillean Publishing Company In conclusion, I end with a quotation of a Christian Reverend the commentator of the Bible, followed by that of his Master: "THE ULTIMATE CRITERION OF A TRUE PROPHET IS THE MORAL CHARACTER OF HIS TEACHING." (Prof. Dummelow.) "BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM." (Jesus Christ) COME LET US REASON TOGETHER SAY:"O PEOPLE OF THE BOOK! COME TO COMMON TERMS AS BETWEEN US AND YOU: THAT WE WORSHIP NONE BUT GOD; THAT WE ASSOCIATE NO PARTNERS WITH HIM; THAT WE ERECT NOT, FROM AMONG OURSELVES, LORDS AND PATRONS OTHER THAN GOD." IF THEN THEY TURN BACK, SAY:"BEAR WITNESS THAT WE (AT LEAST) ARE MUSLIMS (BOWING TO GOD'S WILL)." (SURA AL-I-'IMRAN) Holy Qur'an 3:64 "PEOPLE OF THE BOOK" is the respectful title given to the Jews and the Christians in the Holy Qur'an. The Muslims is here commanded to invite - "O People of the Book!" - O Learned People! O People who claim to be the recipients of Divine Revelation, of a Holy Scripture; let us gather together onto a common platform - "that we worship none but God", because none but God is worthy of worship, not because "THE LORD THY GOD IS A JEALOUS GOD VISITING THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHERS UPON THE CHILDREN UNTO THE THIRD AND FOURTH GENERATION OF THEM THAT HATE ME." (Exodus 20:25). But because He is our Lord and Cherisher, our Sustainer and Evolver, worthy of all praise, prayer and devotion. In the abstract the Jews and the Christians would agree to all the three propositions contained in this Qur'anic verse. In practice they fail. Apart from doctrinal lapses from the unity of the One True God, (ALLAH Subhanahu wa ta-ala) there is the question of a consecrated Priesthood (among the Jews it was hereditary also), as if a mere human being - Cohen or Pope, or Priest, or Brahman, - could claim superiority apart from his learning and the purity of his life, or could stand between man and God in some special sense. ISLAM DOES NOT RECOGNISE PRIESTHOOD! The Creed of Islam is given to us here in a nutshell from Holy Qur'an: Say ye: "We believe in Allah, And the revelation given to us, And to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, And that given to Moses and Jesus And that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: We make no difference Between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)." (SURA BAQARA) Holy Qur'an 2:136. The Muslim position is clear. The Muslim does not claim to have a religion peculiar to himself. Islam is not a sect or an ethnic religion. In its view all Religion is one, for the Truth is one. IT WAS THE SAME RELIGION PREACHED BY ALL THE EARLIER PROPHETS. (Holy Qur'an 42:13). It was the truth taught by all the inspired Books. In essence it amounts to a consciousness of the Will and Plan of God and a joyful submission to that Will and Plan. IF ANYONE WANTS A RELIGION OTHER THAN THAT, HE IS FALSE TO HIS OWN NATURE, AS HE IS FALSE TO GOD'S WILL AND PLAN. Such a one cannot expect guidance, for he has deliberately renounced guidance. now starjade and iris the quoters of old and new test.it is established without a doubt muhammed was the amn who was froetold in deut and in new test to come.nextttttttttt starjade Member Posts: 107 (9/4/04 6:23 pm) The Lord King Starjade the Doomsday prophet says: The Lord King Starjade says: There is a Law in Islam that says: if you know something that is not true then you must be unafraid and stand up and state it. The matter will then be discussed and whatever is found to be true will be accepted as being true and whatever is found to be false will be rejected as being false. The Lord King Starjade says: According to the Old Testament law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 which is a witness law that is designed to determine matters of the truth. None of the Testimonies of Mad Muhammad could ever be established as being true. Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15: One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: At the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. This is a witness law that is designed to determine matters of the truth especially about statements that could be deemed as being blasphemous or sinful. For those are Crimes of Iniquity and sin. It is not a matter for your own personal opinion; even if nobody wanted to believe the evidence that is presented. If that law is fulfilled, then legally it is binding and should stand good according to religious law. Starjade says: Name two witness to this encounter with this claimed angel Gabriel in the Cave. Name two witnesses to this encounter with this angel Gabriel on that Mountain. Name two or three witnesses who saw Mad Muhammad fly off to heaven. Name two witness to this encounter that Mad Muhammad says he has had with the Living God. Name two witnesses to the angel Gabriel orating the flawed and full of error text of Koran to Muhammad. It is a fact on all occasions Muhammad was alone and it is all just his word and the word of his promoters and idolators. I accuse Muhammad the self appointed prophet of Islam of Blasphemy which is a Crime of Iniquity and sin. Now let me see you Kuffar Muslims produce evidence to back all your mouth up. And whiles you spend your time thinking think of the evidence that proves that Muhammad is a liar and a fraud and very Guilty of Blasphemy. Sura 4:82 says if one error is found in the Koran then that is proof the Koran did not come from God. Sura 4:82. Errors found in the Koran. p074.ezboard.com/fdesivoi...=437.topic It has been pointed out by the Shirker salaudinnynj. That Jesus claimed also to being that prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up. That is what all Christians believe that jesus is that prophet and jesus also claimed that he was that specific Prophet. Jesus said in John Chapter 5 Verse 46: for had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me, for he wrote of me. Verse 47: But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words. I am sure that any Muslim reading these words is fully aware that Muhammad believed in Jesus and believed that jesus was the prophet that jesus has claimed himself to be. In fact as any Muslim knows. The Koran has 11 chapters in the Koran Glorifying Jesus as being that specific prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be. Here is a statement made by Iris who is a Christian and an expert in her religious field of knowledge on all Christian things and Christians beliefs and knowledge and this statement does prove that Jesus was claiming himself to be that very prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up. On that matter there is not doubt. Author the Christian Iris: Discourse on Moses Foretold the Coming of Jesus (Yeshua): Muhammad insisted that jesus was the prophet that Jesus claimed himself to be and the Koran has 11 chapters glorifying Jesus as being that prophet. So why is it that you do not see the error in the Koran regading the claims by jesus and Muhammad both claiming to be that very specific prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. Whiles Muhammad was also agreeing that Jesus was the prophet jesus was claiming himself to be. I also point out that Sura 4:82 says: Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein. There is a challenge in Islam open to any Muslim or non Muslim to find any errors in the Koran. Muslims swear through their brainwashed back teeth that the Koran is a perfect doctrine. Yet. Muhammad believed Jesus was the Prophet Jesus claimed himself to be. Jesus said in John Chapter 5 Verse 46: for had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me, for he wrote of me. Verse 47: But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words. Jesus claimed that he is that prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up and the New Testament is a Testimony to that claim and all Christians believe that jesus was that prophet and that he will be coming back to fulfil that Prophecy. Starjade says: So then why does the Koran glorify Jesus and claim Jesus is the Prophet that he is acclaimed to be. Whiles Muhammad as we all know has proclaimed himself to be that very prophet and in fact said he was the last Prophet to come from God and all others coming along after him must be put to death. And how come the sura 4:82 says if any errors are found in the Koran then the Koran did not come from God. Isnt it an error of Muhammad to believe in Jesus when Jesus has claimed himself to be that very prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. Especially as that is the very prophet that Muhammad has claimed himself to be. As does the Koran. In fact the many errors in the Koran show the Koran did not come from God and that proves the word of Muhammad to be untrustworthy and in fact it does make him to outright be a goddamned liar. p074.ezboard.com/fdesivoi...=455.topic So then according to the Old Testament law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15. Muhammad does not have any witnesses and so his word is not established as being true. And according to the Sura 4:82 of the Koran if one just one error exists in the Koran then the Koran did not come from God. Edited by: starjade at: 9/14/04 2:45 pm starjade Member Posts: 119 (9/6/04 5:23 pm) Re: The Lord King Starjade the Doomsday prophet says: Well it seems that Muslims are not coming forwards with any witness testimonies for Mad Muhammad then. Seems they have shirked away again tsk tsk tsk... Of course anyone who has any religious knowledge knows that there are no witnesses to Muhammad at all, it is all just his own word. And followers of islam learned that false religion by the threat of death by other Shirker Muslims who had the attitude of either follow and believe in islam or you will die. Of course they demanded their religious tax from those congregations and so they had a cash motive for their Blasphemy in the promoting of worship to false Prophets. Well now i think i should reply to this thread and dispute this claim by Mad Muhammad who has already been proven to be a fraud. But can muslims world wide handle those Revelations. ( i dont think so ) starjade Member Posts: 120 (9/6/04 6:02 pm) Re: The Lord King Starjade says: (pt1) Shirker salaudinnynj you say: i urge all people to really read this then tell us muslims whos rigth concerning this. the prophet warned to come in deut was it really jesus as christains claim or muhammed? read it all and see without a doubt it was muhammed. it is a bit long, but it is established without an inch of a doubt even the bible old and new test prophecised muhammeds coming. this should open iris eyes and starjade shes sick alays quoting deut.even deut mentions muhammeds coming. Starjade says: There is a law in Islam that says: If you know something that is not true then you must be unafraid and stand up and state it. The matter will then be discussed and whatever is found to be true will be accepted as being true and whatever is found to be false will be rejected as being false. I am once again invoking this Islamic law so that any Muslims is safe to answer his replies to any statement written here. Let us discuss this Matter as the Shirker salaudinnynj has requested. I start by saying Sura 4:82: Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from Any other than Allah then they surely would have found therein much discrepancy. Starjades undisputed 21 errors of the Koran. www.geocities.com/end_of_...hytwo.html Starjade getting an account of those errors from followers of islam. p074.ezboard.com/fdesivoi...=437.topic Starjade says: On the above links are statements showing many errors in the Koran. Muslims have shirked away and will nor give explanations to these errors existing in the Koran. They hide away and they shirk that reality that errors do exist in the Koran proving that the Koran did not come from God and it is not the final Revealtion. Furthermore the very fact that errors exist in the Koran that is Sura 4:82 proof that the Koran did not come from God and that means that the word of Muhammad is not true and can be proven to be untrustworthy. Proving also that Muhammad was not a prophet from God at all, in fact that is a lie. And the tax taken from the congregations is cash incentive for Muhammad�s deceptions. Sura 4:82 already proves Muhammad is a liar and fraud and yet these false claims about Mad Muhammad keep crawling out of the wood work. I knew that the Shirker salaudinnynj would bring up this thread and these claims of Mad Muhammad, as life for me is almost a deja view experience as I have spoken with so very many Muslims in the past. And as you have seen Shirker salaudinnynj has laid it on a platter for me. The living Gods Prophecy of the coming of the Prophesied Chosen one. Shirker salaudinnynj you say: "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (HOLY BIBLE) Deuteronomy 18:18. Starjade says: Quoting N/world translation text of that same passage: Deuteronomy Ch 18 Verse 18: A Prophet I shall raise up in the MIDST of your Brothers , like you. And I shall indeed put my words in his mouth and he will certainly speak to them all that I command him. Deuteronomy Ch 18 Verse 19: And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name. I shall myself require an account from him. Starjade says: This is the Prophecy that god has promised Moses he would raise up. This long awaited prophet is the lord King of all Jews the Messiah. Now it is a fact that many have claimed to be that very specific prophet. I named sabbatai Zevi and Jesus and Muhammad. Here is a Christian link to a thread where that claim by the Christians exist showing that indeed the Christians Jesus has certainly claimed that he was that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. And I point out here that Muhammad also believed that jesus was the Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be and the Koran as any Muslim knows has 11 chapters in the Koran glorifying Jesus as being that Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be. The Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be is that very Prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up. Jesus said in John Chapter 5 Verse 46: for had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me, for he wrote of me. Verse 47: But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words. Author the Christian Iris: Discourse on Moses Foretold the Coming of Jesus (Yeshua): Of course most Muslims are religiously ignorant and are not aware of these claims by Jesus and his disciples. But all Christians around the world all believe that Jesus is that prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. On this matter there is no doubt and if you have any enquiries then please click on the above link and read and then you can ask Questions of Iris who is a Christian. You will find that all Christians believe that jesus is that specific Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. Muslims however are making this extraordinary claim that Muhammad their Idol is that prophet that god promised Moses he would raise up and so I think we should have a close look at these claims of Muhammad. And wonder how Muhammad can say that jesus is that prophet when Muhammad then claims himself to be that prophet. That is most odd. ? Edited by: starjade at: 9/14/04 2:48 pm starjade Member Posts: 121 (9/6/04 6:12 pm) Re: The Lord King Starjade says: (pt2) The living Gods Prophecy of the coming of the Prophesied Chosen one. Shirker salaudinnynj you say: "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (HOLY BIBLE) Deuteronomy 18:18. Starjade says: Quoting N/world translation text of that same passage: Deuteronomy Ch 18 Verse 18: A Prophet I shall raise up in the MIDST of your Brothers , like you. And I shall indeed put my words in his mouth and he will certainly speak to them all that I command him. Deuteronomy Ch 18 Verse 19: And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name. I shall myself require an account from him. Starjade says: This is the Prophecy that god has promised Moses he would raise up. This long awaited prophet is the lord King of all Jews the Messiah. Now it is a fact that many have claimed to be that very specific prophet. I named sabbatai Zevi and Jesus and Muhammad. Here is a Christian link to a thread where that claim by the Christians exist showing that indeed the Christians Jesus has certainly claimed that he was that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. And I point out here that Muhammad also believed that jesus was the Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be and the Koran as any Muslim knows has 11 chapters in the Koran glorifying Jesus as being that Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be. The Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be is that very Prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up. Jesus said in John Chapter 5 Verse 46: for had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me, for he wrote of me. Verse 47: But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words. Author the Christian Iris: Discourse on Moses Foretold the Coming of Jesus (Yeshua): Of course most Muslims are religiously ignorant and are not aware of these claims by Jesus and his disciples. But all Christians around the world all believe that Jesus is that prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. On this matter there is no doubt and if you have any enquiries then please click on the above link and read and then you can ask Questions of Iris who is a Christian. You will find that all Christians believe that jesus is that specific Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. Muslims however are making this extraordinary claim that Muhammad their Idol is that prophet that god promised Moses he would raise up and so I think we should have a close look at these claims of Muhammad. And wonder how Muhammad can say that jesus is that prophet when Muhammad then claims himself to be that prophet. That is most odd. ? salaudinnynj you say: 1. Muhummed is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5:16. The Hebrew word used there is Muhammuddim. The end letters IM is plural of respect majesty and grandeur. Minus "im" the name would be Muhamud translated as "altogether lovely" in the Authorised Version of the Bible or 'The Praised One' 'the one worthy of Praise' i.e. MUHUMMED!(P.B.U.H) Starjade says: In fact it does not say or name Muhammad does it. That is just a Muslim Idolator saying the name Muhammad which was not mentioned at all. So this is starting with Islamic deceptions. Christians praise Jesus all the Time. But not as much as the fans of Elvis. The fact is the statement you have made is based on idolation and assumtion and Muhammad was not mentioned in that Old testament text. In fact I did tax myself having to read those songs of Solomon a few years back and Muhammad was not mentioned as you are claiming here. Although it is unlikely Perhaps I have missed that verse with Muhammads name in the Verses why not show us all the very verse you are referring too. Isn�t it a fact though that no such text exists naming Muhammad at all as you have just claimed. We insist you show proof so you could refute Starjades statement at this Time by showing that verse. But we both know you cannot because such a name does not exist as you claim. Your just saying where it says; "altogether lovely" in the Authorised Version of the Bible or 'The Praised One' 'the one worthy of Praise' that they must have been talking about your idol Muhammad. But it does not mention Muhammad as you have claimed does it. We call this Islamic deception. Edited by: starjade at: 9/14/04 2:51 pm starjade Member Posts: 122 (9/6/04 7:07 pm) Re: The Lord King Starjade says: (pt3) Shirker Saladudinnynj you say: 2. If this booklet is translated into any language, please change the afrikaans words into the local dialect; and do not try a free hand translation of the Biblical quotations. Obtain a Bible in the language in which translation is being made and transcribe exactly as the words occur in that Bible. Starjade says: Huh? Well now whose Bible in fact all Bibles with a New testament are in fact all Christian Bibles as the Jews did not accept that Jesus was that Prophet. The romans were the ones who put the New Testament with the Old and so you are quoting mainly from a Christian Bible. (its ok then just wanted to make that point) Saladudinnynj you say: Prophet like Moses. having recited the verse in Afrikaans, i apolagised for my uncertain pronuncation, The Dominee assured me that I was doing fine. I enquired: To whom does this Prophecy refer? Without the slightest hesitation he answered: "JESUS!" I asked: "Why Jesus?... his name is not mentioned here." The dominee replied: "Since prophecies are word-pictures of something that is going to happen in the future, we find that the wordings of this verse adequately describe him. Starjade scornfully says: So again you are claiming idolatry as if facts. Some say it is Jesus and others say it is Muhammad. At least you have confessed to that fact. For Jesus did claim that he was that prophet that Moses said God would rise up. I note this Africaan did not say that that Porphet was Muhammad did he. And by the way my Prophecies are very descriptive. I even drew up a map and so these feeble excuses other Prophets come out with do not hold water to me. And Jesus was not mentioned nor was Muhammad and that is a fact that can be checked out easily. Saladudinnynj you say: You see the most important words of this prophecy are 'SOOS JY IS' (like unto thee), - LIKE YOU - like Moses, and Jesus is like Moses. I questioned: "In which way is Jesus like Moses?" The answer was: "In the first place Moses was a JEW and Jesus was also a JEW; secondly, Moses was a PROPHET and Jesus was also a PROPHET - therefore Jesus is like Moses and that is exactly what God had foretold Moses - "SOOS JY IS". Starjade says: In 1995 I ordered a mass Exodus of Jews from the four corners of the globe and i chose the International Order of Kabbalists to oversee that Exodus. (doesnt that make me likened to Moses. I am not a Jew I am an Alien resident. But then God did not say that he would raise up a Prophet who would be of the seed of Abraham. Moses had said in Deuiteronomy Chapter 18 verse 15: The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the Midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me, unto him you should hearken. Verse 16: According to all that thou desirest of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying let me not hearagain the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire anymore that i die not. Verse 17: And the Lord said unto me, they have well spoken that which they have spoken. Verse 18: I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and i will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that i command him. Verse 19: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, i shall require it of him. So the Prophecy only says: From the Midst of thee of they brethren. I did grow up in the Midst of many of the descendants of Abraham who are the brethren to all the descendants of Abraham living or dead. Saladudinnynj you say: "Can you think of any other similarities between Moses and Jesus?" I asked. The dominee said that he could not think of any. I replied: "If these are the only two criteria for discovering a candidate for this prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18, then in that case the criteria could fit any one of the following Biblical personages after Moses:- Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc., because they were also ALL "Jews" as well as "Prophets". Why should we not apply this prophecy to any one of these prophets, and why only to Jesus? Why should we make fish of one and fowl of another?" The dominee had no reply. I continued: "You see, my conclusions are that Jesus is most unlike Moses, and if I am wrong I would like you to correct me." Starjade says: As a matter of fact to prove a Candidate for being that specific prophetthat God promised Moses he would raise up. All such claiments must be able to satisfy the Old testament law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15: Which is a two or three witness law that determines matters of the truth. they also would have to have been ordering that mass exodus of Jews from the Four Corners of the Globe during the Time when all those many Prophesied signs in the heavens occured in conjunction with each other. The Many signs in the heavens: www.geocities.com/end_of_...erfour.htm For they are the signs of the Times when that prophesied Prophet walked upon the face of this earth. So there are other things that can prove that Prophet to be true. And all these things and more are what will prove that Prophet to be who he says he is. These many signs in the heavens did not occur when Jesus or Muhammad had lived. And this matter is more than just a pick and Choose. Already the Koran has proven Muhammad is a fraud and must be discounted from such claims. After all the Sura 4:82 says if errors are found in the Koran then that book did not come from God as Muhammad has claimed. So whiles you collect feeble evidence to support your idol and false Prophet, you might take the Time out to mention the things of plenty that proves he is a false Prophet for a fact. www.geocities.com/end_of_...hytwo.html Three Unlikes So saying, I reasoned with him: "In the FIRST place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to You - 'JESUS IS A GOD', but Moses is not God. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses! Starjade says: Jesus is not God that is a blasphemy. And if the matter is according to whomsoever believes Jesus is a God then your speaking in Judgements to a Christian. A Christian and Muslim debating issues of the Jewish religion, how farcical. Jesus was not like Moses in any way and neither is Muhammad. I see that you are in no position to back your feeble claims up. Try the Old Testament Law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 which is a Jewish law that determines matters of the truth. Bring forwards witnesses who can prove that a man called Jesus is God. As you cannot produce any proof or witnesses then your arguments fall flat into the realms of idolatry and blasphemy. Tsk tsk tsk��� Saladudinnynj you say: "SECONDLY, according to You - 'JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD', but Moses did not have to die for the sins of the world. Is this true?" He again said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!" Starjade says: Moses died alone because of the Blasphemy of the Jews when they made their Golden Calf. For God cursed the Jews and cast them out into the desert for 40 years until all of that generation died. Only their offspring would see the new promised Land and Moses was of the Old Generation, so he was not allowed to enter into that new land and went away to die alone and away from his people. I think that Saladudinnynj is making very week arguments here. Saladudinnynj you say: "THIRDLY, according to You - 'JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS', but Moses did not have to go there. Is this true?" He answered meekly: "Y-e-s." I concluded: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!" Starjade says: There is no evidence that Jesus went to Hell. There are only Testimonies from his disciples and according to the Old Testament law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 none of their Testimonies can be established as being true. Anyone reading the New testament can see that Jesus was nothing like Moses instead of getting into such petty allegories. Mad Muhammad was nothing like Moses either so what is the point that you are trying to make.? Saladudinnynj you say: "But dominee," I continued: "these are not hard facts, solid facts, they are mere matters of belief over which the little ones can stumble and fall. Let us discuss something very simple, very easy that if your little ones are called in to hear the discussion, would have no difficulty in following it, shall we?" The dominee was quiet happy at the suggestion. Starjade says: Good to see you also note that these matters you are speaking aboutare not facts but suppositions and tame arguments. Upon which you will all stumble whiles speaking with the Lord King Starjade. I have not seen any facts so far. Other than claims of this and that. Starjade says: I have heard better religious debates from muslims claiming Muhammad to be that Prophet against or rather instead of that prophet being Jesus. And better claims from Christians that Jesus is that prophet rather that it being Muhammad. All this Blabberwocking you are doing posting and pasting the statements of others off the net shows me that you are incapable of creating those explanations yourself. I may point out that I have not yet read any of these statemenst and I simply reply as I see them by paragraph in word. You disappointed me as I have seen the claims of the Muslims about Muhammad just as I have seen similar claims about Jesus. There are better ways of showing those debates. And who the frell is this Dominee, is that some whore of Babylon with a whip eh?. Is this what your into or does this self flaggeration suffice. The Lord King starjade says: Be sure that I will be looking at all you have said and I will dispute your idolatry and you already know that I am the one who will prove Muhammad is a fraud no matter what evidence you try and dream up. And I do not need to mention Sura 4:82 in proving Muhammad is a fraud. There are other things that prove that and I am one of them. Edited by: starjade at: 9/14/04 4:30 pm starjade Member Posts: 123 (9/6/04 7:11 pm) Re: The Lord King Starjade says: Be sure however that i will be looking at all that you have said and i will dispute your idolatory and you already know i am the one who will prove Muhammad is a fraud no matter what evidence you try and dream up. And i do not need to mention Sura 4:82 in proving Muhmmad is a fraud. there are other things. And i am one of them. starjade Member Posts: 124 (9/6/04 7:53 pm) Re: The Lord King Starjade says: Pt 4. Shirker salaudinnynj you say: CHAPTER TWO Eight Irrefutable Arguments Father and Mother (1) "Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "DAAROM IS JESUS NIE SOOS MOSES NIE, MAAR MUHUMMED IS SOOS MOSES!" Meaning: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses!" (By now the reader will realise that I was using the Afrikaans language only for practice purposes. I shall discontinue its use in this narration). Starjade says: Well as a matter of fact the birth of Jesus is not true is is fabricated in order to satisfy the prophecy made by Isaiah regarding a Virgin that will give birth to a son. You have heard that story. Mathew admitted he made his statement in order to satisfy that Prophecy made By Isaiah. Mathew and Luke were not present when Jesus gave birth and so their word is not true Testimony according to Old testament law. So this Virgin birth was invented and so your arguments are based on beliefs of Christians and Muslims and are not based on factual evidence. Shirker salaudinnynj you say: Miraculous Birth (2) "Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle. You will recall that we are told in the Gospel of St. Matthew 1:18 ".....BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER,(Joseph the Carpenter and Mary) SHE WAS FOUND WITH CHILD BY THE HOLY GHOST." And St.Luke tells us that when the good news of the birth of a holy son was announced to her, Mary reasoned: "...HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? AND THE ANGEL ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HER, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE..." (Luke 1:35). The Holy Qur'an confirms the miraculous birth of Jesus, in nobler and sublimer terms. In answer to her logical question: Starjade says: The Birth of Moses was surrounded by Mystery as he was cast into the Bulrushies. It is claimed in the Koran that the wife of the Pharaoh adopted Moses but according to the Old Testament it was the daughter of the pharaoh who adopted Moses. And there is not evidence that Jesus ever even existed and so you are not detailing out any facts but Christian beliefs and suppositions to try and make your points. This birth was claimed to have been authenticated by the Angel Gabriel. And Jesus later was claimed to have grown up and then claimed that he was that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. But that also is the same Prophet that you admit that Muhammad has claimed himself to be but do not explain why it was that Muhammad believed Jesus to be the Prophet Jesus claimed himself to be and the Koran glorifies jesus as being the Prophet that jesus has claimed himself to be. Whiles all along the Koran and mad Muhammad claimed Muhammad instead and as well of being that Prophet that God promised Moses eh would raise up. Which is one of the biggest mistakes Muhammad and the Koran has made. Oh by the way; This virgin birth can be explained away by other means as well. Verse 99: As for that Prophecy made by Isaiah he says in Chapter 7 Verse 14: Therefore, the Lord God shall give you a Sign. Behold a Virgin shall conceive and bear a Son and his name shall be Immanuel. Well I have also quoted such a Prophecy regarding a Virgin giving birth, along with many other prophesied Signs in the heavens. Verse 65: And at the beginning of the Jewish civil New Year, which began in September 1996 until Passover of 1999, another very rare Sign appeared above Jerusalem in the heavens of space. The new Moon rose from the horizon directly in the constellation of Virgo and it moved within 24 hours to the feet of this constellation. The Sun was just below the horizon and its rays seemed to clothe the Virgo woman with the Sun. This configuration of the constellation of Virgo giving birth to the new Moon has not occurred in the Past before and it will not occur again for over 11,ooo years because of the precession of the Equinoxes, and it is not likely to ever appear again in conjunction with the many other prophesied Signs in the heavens. Therefore, during that heavenly birth the Virgin did bear the Sun whiles giving birth to the Moon, which is a known symbol of the Messiah, sent as a Sign that the living God is with us. That Prophet that the living God promised Moses he would raise up could only arrive on this Planet when all those many prophesied Signs in the heavens appeared in conjunction with each other. Starjade says: And also amongst religious circles it is known that the Christ is a Mushroom and it is born of a Virgin birth. It is born without seed and it can be born in a day and die in a night but if you wait around after 3 days the Mushroom will resurrect itself. Hence the Virgin birth and the death and resurrection mentioned in the Bible. The Christ was a Mushroom that was the Key to heavens and hell the very fruit that grew upon the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. This fruit is why there are two Christian Bibles. One saying that Jesus died upon a Cross and the other saying that the Christ died upon a tree. Religious ignorance is not a good way for you to try and prove your claims as you are ignorants to other religious matters that are already well known in this world. And trying to slag Jesus off is not helping your claims about Mad Muhammad for your forgetting that Muhammad believed in Jesus and 11 chapters of the Koran glorify Jesus and here you are now attempting to show jesus as being a fraud. But you are going about that in the wrong way. And the Koran is simply repeating the claims of the Christians. You said in other threads that the New testament is not valid and yet that text clearly is written in the Koran. You again are caught out in religious ignorance and deception. So far you have produced no proof of Muhammad and in fact are showing more proof to prove Jesus than Muhammad. How come you are not showing evidence actual evidence of Muhammad and prove his claim with the same ease that I proved my claims. Edited by: starjade at: 9/14/04 4:32 pm starjade Member Posts: 125 (9/6/04 8:14 pm) Re: The Lord King Starjade says: Pt 5. Shirker salaudinnynj you say: " O MY LORD! HOW SHALL I HAVE A SON WHEN NO MAN HATH TOUCHED ME? " The angel says in reply: "EVEN SO: ALLAH CREATETH WHAT HE WILLETH: WHEN HE HATH DECREED A PLAN, HE BUT SAITH TO IT "BE," AND IT IS " 1 (HOLY QUR'AN, 3:47). Starjade says: The Koran is not Holy at all it is a proven book of deception and it is laughable that the Koran promotes jesus as being the Prophet jesus claimed himself to be especially repeating the claims of the Christians in the Koran because jesus claimed that he is that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. You admit that here in this thread. And Muhammad believed that Jesus was the Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be. And you are here pointing out how this angel Gabriel came along to authenticate Jesus. Who later claimed himself to be that prophet that God promised Moses eh would raise up. Jesus said in John Chapter 5 Verse 46: for had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me, for he wrote of me. Verse 47: But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words. Now why don�t you just produce some evidence to back up this claim of the virgin birth because we all know that Mathew and Luke were not present at this birth and so their accounts are not factual but heresay and invented. The Koran is bearing false witness. salaudinnynj you say: It is not necessary for God to plant a seed in man or animal. He merely wills it and it comes into being. Starjade says: And just who the frell thinks that they are in a position to know what God can or cannot or does or does not do. Where do you get that information for Mad Muhammad your self appointed prophet has been proven by the Sura 4:82 to be a Liar and a fraud. He was presumptuous to think he could speak in Gods name. The Koran has already been proven to be a deceiver of men. And its proclamations are not established as being true. These statements of your are the opinions of another who was in no position to speak. He can babble out his beliefs but those beliefs are his own and cannot be established as being true. salaudinnynj you say: This is the Muslim conception of the of birth of Jesus. (When I compared the Qur'an and the Biblical versions of the birth of Jesus to the head of the Bible Society in our largest City, and when I enquired: "Which version would you prefer to give your daughter, the QUR'ANIC version or the BIBLICAL version?" The man bowed his head and answered: "The Qur'anic.") In short, I said to the dominee: "Is it true that Jesus was born miraculously as against the natural birth of Moses and Muhummed?" He replied proudly: "Yes!" I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses. And God says to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy 18:18 "LIKE UNTO THEE" (Like You, Like Moses) and Muhummed is like Moses." Starjade says: Mathew admitted the story of the Virgin birth was fabricated in order to fulfil the Prophecy of Isaiah and so the Koran is in error making such a proclamation about Jesus especially when the Old Testament law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 proves that the Testimonies of Jesus and his disciples are proven to be a false. And Muhammad is a liar and a fraud and the Sura 4:82 proves that is a fact. Yet Moses was a fine upstanding man of honour and integrity which is some thing that the fraud Mad Muhammad can be proven not to be like. When Jesus spoke his word was a way of peace but when Muhammad the Liar spoke it was of deception and follow Islam or you will die. starjade Member Posts: 126 (9/6/04 8:32 pm) The Lord King Starjade says: (pt6) Shirker salaudinnynj you say: 1. Please open the Holy Qur'an 3:42 and 19:16 where the birth of Jesus is spoken about; read it with the commentry, note the high position which Jesus and his mother occupy in Islam. Starjade says: Read the origin of the Arch Angel Gabriel and read the text of claims of Mathew and luke and learn why they made those claims without the deception of Islam and the Text of the Koran which the Sura 4:82 has proven to be false. www.geocities.com/end_of_...briel.html This obsession by islam on the birth of Jesus is laughable for jesus claimed as an adult that he was the prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up. The whole of the Christians new testament is a testimony to that claim of Jesus. Here is proof of those claims of the Christians who all swear that Jesus is that prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be which is that very specific Prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up. p074.ezboard.com/fdesivoi...=455.topic As Jesus has already claimed that he is that Prophet then why is Mad Muhammad making up those claims about himself by saying on his second breath after glorifying Jesus that he Muhammad is that very Prophet from God that Jesus has claimed himself to be. That claim by Mad Muhammad is ludicrous and a lie and a deception. The sura 4:82 proves that the word of Muhammad is proven to not be true and in fact Mad Muhammad has been caught out in a lie. starjade Member Posts: 127 (9/6/04 8:47 pm) The Lord King Starjade says: ( Pt 7.) Shirker salaudinnynj you say: Marriage Ties (3) "Moses and Muhammad married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses." Starjade says: I have not seen any evidence that Muhammad is anything like Moses. Or that Jesus was anything like Moses. This obsession that you have with Jesus is only for the fact that Jesus has claimed that he is that prophet that the Living God has promised Moses he would raise up. As you already know that is the Christians claim and that is what Jesus has claimed. Jesus said in John Chapter 5 Verse 46: for had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me, for he wrote of me. Verse 47: But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words. This is why you are obsessed in talking about jesus so much because you are trying to prove mad Muhammad was that prophet instead of jesus even though Jesus has said that he is that prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. Jesus said in John Chapter 5 Verse 46: for had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me, for he wrote of me. Verse 47: But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words. And so you think if you can discredit Jesus and promote Mad Muhammad as being that prophet instead that people will ignore the facts and just take your lying deceptive word as Gospel. The Christians wont fall for your Bulldump salaudinnynj. Verse 122: The 4th error in the text of the Koran is that it glorifies Jesus and does accept Jesus as being the Prophet that Jesus and his disciples claimed Jesus to be. The writers of the Koran seem blissfully unaware, as are many Muslims, that Jesus has claimed that he was that very Prophet that the living God had promised Moses he would raise up. And Jesus claimed that Moses and Isaiah had been writing about him in their Prophecies, regarding the coming of the living God�s prophesied Prophet because that is who Jesus has claimed himself to be. The Koran contains highly revering text about Jesus and even describes miracles that Jesus was claimed to have performed, Sura 5:110. No less than 11 Chapters of the Koran out of its 114 Chapters mention Jesus and his teachings. So the Koran is confirming the status of Jesus as being that very Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be. This is a very serious error from an Islamic point of view whose writers were unaware of the claims that Jesus had been making and of the reflection that claim would have upon the claims of their own Prophet Muhammad. Their glorification of Jesus in the Koran puts Muhammad in a very awkward position with his own proclamations from an Islamic point of view. Starjades undisputed 21 Errors in the Koran. www.geocities.com/end_of_...hytwo.html I told you Mad Muhammad had made a very large error. And so has the Koran. 11 Chapters of the Koran glorify Jesus as being the Prophet that jesus has claimed himself to be. Muhammad yes Mad Muhammad himself has also admitted that he believed Jesus was the Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be. How sad are you to then try and discredit Jesus when the Koran and the word of Muhammad confirm Jesus asbeing the Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be. You are not refuting the New testament or the claims of jesus here. You are disputing the beliefs of Mad Muhammad and the words of the Koran. You bragged the words of the Koran were perfect and yet here you are trying to disprove them. You are a hypocrite. starjade Member Posts: 128 (9/6/04 8:50 pm) Shirker salaudinnynj losing again on behalf of Mad muhammad The Building i am in is closing but i will continue my replies when i return. Seems you are still losing in your arguments Shirker salaudinnynj. Did you really believe you could prove that Muhammad was who he claimed himself to be when the Sura 4:82 already proved Mad muhammad was a liar and a fraud. starjade Member Posts: 129 (9/7/04 4:30 pm) The Lord King Starjade says: ( Pt 8.) CHAPTER TWO continued: Shirker salaudinnynj you said: Those Eight Irrefutable Arguments by Islamic followers. Marriage Ties (3) "Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses." Starjade says: I find it odd that the followers of Islam should ask if Jesus ever got married as they copied their Koran off the Christians new Testament. So if a person is not married then in the eyes of islam you canot be a Prophet from God eh. I wonder just who is making these rules up. So what if Jesus was not married. He wasn�t born in the same country he may have had a different shoe size and his balls certainly were not as big as Moses so what. Of course I say this again the reason why you muslims are trying to show that Jesus was not like Moses is because you all know that Jesus has claimed that Moses and Isaiah had been writing about Jesus and you all know already that Jesus has claimed that he is that prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up. Muslims therefore realise that is an error in fact the 4th error in the Koran of starjades undisputed 21 errors found in the Koran. And so you are trying to progve that Jesus is not anything like Moses because it says like unto you in that prophecy (like unto Moses) So you Muslims are trying to prove that Jesus is nothing like Moses but your false Prophet Mad Muhammad is almost the twin brother of Moses. But so far you have only given assumptions and not actual evidence and you have shown no evidence at all that Muhammad was that prophet that Moses said he would raise up. But we both know that Muhammad believed that Jesus is the Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be and we both know the Koran claims that also in 11 chapters of glorification of Jesus. Yet right here you Muslims are trying to find excuses as to that Error of Muhammad and the Koran. So whiles you go trying to disprove the claims of Jesus you are also proving that Muhammad got it wrong and that the Koran got it wrong. You are trying to escape the reality that Jesus has proclaimed himself to being that very Prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up. This is why you are going to such lengths to try and prove that Jesus could not be that prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. But it is marred in the fact that all Christians on earth believe Jesus is that Prophet and the Koran glorifies and confirms Jesus to be that prophet and you of course come online and say that Jesus could not be that Prophet because he was not married. Might I suggest you read The statement made by Iris because she gives a good account as to why the Christians believe Jesus is like Moses. Discourse on Moses Foretold the Coming of Jesus (Yeshua): I tell you what though Jesus was like Muhammad because Jesus claimed that he is that prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. And Muhammad has claimed that he (Muhammad) is that prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. So if Muhammad is like Moses then Jesus must be like Moses mustn�t he. Now you can make claims about Muhammad and accusations about jesus but you cannot escape the fact that Muhammad believed Jesus was that Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be and the Koran confirms that same belief. Edited by: starjade at: 9/7/04 5:03 pm iris89 Posts: 300 (9/7/04 4:36 pm) Lovers of Knockoff Books Are Just Plain Ignorant See Below: Hi Everyone I do not agree that the Arabs are proof that Islam is a lie, they may by their actions give strong indicators to this effect, However, one poster by his just plain illogical and nonsense post and unwarranted attacks has proven it, see below. The Arabs need to clean out the sick (mentally) among them. You never see true Christians doing these kinds of things. Yes, counterfeit Christians do, sometimes; but the Arabs seem unable to deal with their sick ones and let them go on terrible attacks against others. In fact there is even one on this forum that says, <<" i detsroyed you">>, and the others have failed to take action as yet against him, very telling. By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer BESLAN, Russia - President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) ordered the borders of North Ossetia closed Saturday as security forces searched the southern region for militants who escaped the Russian storming of a school where they had held hundreds of people hostage, many who fled the building under fire. A news agency reported 322 bodies were pulled from the rubble. One of the goals of the terrorists was to sow ethnic enmity and blow up the North Caucasus," Putin said. "Anyone who gives in to such a provocation will be viewed by us as abetting terrorism," he said. Valery Andreyev, Russia's Federal Security Service chief in the region, said 10 Arabs were among 27 militants killed. [source = Associated Press Writer, Mike Eckel] Some are just plain crazy and do not understand context nor appreciate candor as the truth is not in them read below. One such type has been falsely accusing me of all kinds of just plain crazy things, See the evidence and my answers to him below. There is one poster that falsely attacks others and makes preposterous claims, see, <<"shes not well rational.she is sick.lol">>. He is just plain igronant misguided individual as this post of his proves on the "The Wonderful Thigs God (YHWH) Provides Us:" thread. Now he has gone so wacko that he has even made this accusation against me, on yet another thread, <<�a sin is this iris.�>> as everyone knows I am a highly respectable person and not a sin, no one can be a sin, just look at the meaning of the word in any dictionary, thus anyone making such a false charge is both a liar and probably out of his mind. Some posters attach others and post crazy nonsense, see the following example, "i told you everyone here knew i detsroyed you.i simply usedyour own sources your own book even jesus in your own book contradicting you and that wich you stateon here.give it up and move on.your ilogical nonsense has been exposed.had someone exposed me as you and your bull have been exposedi would run to other forums.pat robertson forums.lol nextttttttttttttt ">>. It is obvious from this post that he has a big problem and does NOT know how to converse with others, note he has the hateful arrogance to state, this is his words, <<"i detsroyed you">> which is the kind of talk a deranged individual uses. On another thread he actually accused me of being sick, but as you can see this should actually be applied to him as shown by what he writes. He gets a sadistic thrill apparently in attacking and being extremely insulting and nasty to others. His claim of refuting others is like his false accusations, just plain false and crazy. Here is another crazy claim and also an unwarranted false attack on me that this individual posted on the �Monotheism - Inherently Intolerant?� thread, <<� iris are you that crazy you dont realize we all know you are sick?ive already showed you thru your own book that those who you say wrote what in it arent even the ones writting it.ive showed you the 5 books of moses are not written by moses but by a third person.the same with mathew and otehrs.yet you are saying these people are devinely inspired bygod.lol even the translators of your book admit they are mostly unknowns.parts of the bible that you are thinking are written by someone are actually written by otehrs,otehr then the ones you are acreditting the work to.lol how more bakwards can you get?oh yeah its no translation error.i can pin point that moses and mathew in bible are not written by them.wether its in english or greek.lol where can you run to now?nextttttttttttt�>>. It is plain to see from this that he is the actual sick one and not I as he falsely and uncivilly claims. This same braggart of a writer shows his ignorance also in claiming that Moses wrote his own obituary with his stupid claim that overlooks the fact that Moses was the major writer or scribe used by God (YHWH) in the writing of the first five books of God�s (YHWH�s) word the Bible, but this poster is ignorant of the fact that there were also minor writers or scribes that only wrote small portions of books of the Bible. This was the case with Deuteronomy where a small part was written by minor writers or scribes, in this case Elizer the priest and Joshua, this being the so called obituary of Moses [source = �Insights Bible Dictionary�]. This was also the case, for example, with the first chapter of Isaiah, it was written by a minor scribe and NOT the major scribe, Isaiah, used by God (YHWH) to write most of Isaiah. Of course braggarts who are ignorant would NOT know this as they are too busy posting utter nonsense and �sick� writings to be bothered with the facts. It is sad that I find it necessary to answer their foolishness with fact as they are nothing but sick individuals with a blotted opinion of self Ignorance, true, is believing in a Bible knockoff book as a holy book and critizising the Bible from which its author borrowed or took from without giving credit. That is true ignorance. Your Friend in Christ Iris89 starjade Member Posts: 130 (9/7/04 4:41 pm) The Lord King Starjade says: ( Pt 9.) Shirker salaudinnynj you said: Jesus Rejected by his People (4) "Moses and Muhummed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Muhummed's life impossible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah. But according to the Bible: 'He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.' (John 1:11). And even today, after two thousand years, his people- the Jews, as a whole, have rejected him. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT LIKE MOSES, BUT MUHUMMED IS LIKE MOSES." Starjade says: I have asked for the prophecies of Muhammad many Times of Muslims and they have been found wanting. It seems Muhammad did not actually do much Prophesying of a real prophets nature. His account of the End of Times was insulting and laughable. And the reason why Muhammad rose to Power was because of a law called follow Islam or die. No Jew accepts Jesus as being that Prophet that they were waiting for and those who once were Jews and made such claims about jesus were blasphemous and not real Jews for they had walked away from their religious teachings and their religion. They did that at another Time before when they smelted down a Golden calf. But when you say that Jesus is not like Moses you say this because the very prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be is that very Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. And Islam is now standing against the word of Muhammad by saying that jesus is not the Prophet that Jesus claimed himself to be. Even though the Koran says that jesus was the Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be and so did Muhammad. It can be so confusing cant it. The best way to look at it is by looking at Starjades undisputed 21 errors found in the Koran staring with error 4: www.geocities.com/end_of_...hytwo.html and then going on to read the statement made by Iris of just how the Christians claim Jesus was just like Moses. Discourse on Moses Foretold the Coming of Jesus (Yeshua): ( 1 2 3 ) p074.ezboard.com/fdesivoi...=455.topic Because we all know you do not want the world to know about that as you try and escape the conclusions of the error found in Muhammads words and the Koran. Edited by: starjade at: 9/14/04 4:37 pm starjade Member Posts: 131 (9/7/04 5:02 pm) Re: The Lord King Starjade says: ( Pt 10.) Shirker salaudinnynj you said: "Other-Wordly" Kingdom (5) "Moses and Muhummed were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of Man and this Guidance he conveys to God's creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment - HE IS A KING. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day, and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Muhummed too, had the power of life and death over his people. Starjade says: Well I personally would not have stoned anyone to death for collecting firewood on any day. That is taking religion to extremes. I recall those Islamic experts who taught me all about Muhammad and the religion of Islam and how humble Mad Muhammad was. Yet here you brag he is your King hahaha and no doubt your God and Idol. But I still don�t think Muhammad will ever have as many followers as Elvis had. According to the Sura 4:82 if one error is found in the Koran then that is proof that the Koran did not come from God. And if one error just one error does exist then that is proof that Muhammad is no King at all but in fact a fraud and a deceptive liar. Now tell me Shirker salaudinnynj : Do either of these two errors in the Koran exist in the Koran. Come on now do not shirk do these two errors exist in the Koran And if they do then reply and say so do not shirk. But in that reply remind yourself that the sura 4:82 says if one error exists in the Koran then that is proof the Koran did not come from God and that means that Muhammads word is not trustworthy and Muhammad is then proven to be a fraud and a liar and certainly not a Prophet form God and defonately not a Lord King a King of Kings likened to Moses. 2. How many angels were talking to Mary? When the Qur'an speaks about the announciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21. 8. Calling together or ripping apart? In the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together [41:11], while 21:30 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart. Oh I know your hesitating again perhaps these errors are two tough for you to find with your head buried in the Ground so let me see. Try these twoo errors instead if you cannot find those other two. But wait a minute doesn�t the Sura 4:82 say if just one error is found in the Koran then it did not come from God and here are four errors found in the Koran. Now why do you suppose that is then I wonder if any follower of Islam can give an adequate explanation because well you know what the Sura 4:82 says don�t you. 13. Where is Allah and his throne? Allah is nearer than the jugular vein [50:16], but he is also on the throne [57:4] which is upon the water [11:7], and at the same time so far away, that it takes between 1,000 and 50,000 years to reach him [32:5, 70:4]. 19. Does Allah forgive shirk? Shirk is considered the worst of all sins, but the author of the Qur'an seems unable to decide if Allah will ever forgive it or not. No [4:48, 116], Yes [4:153, 25:68-71]. Abraham committed this sin of polytheism as he takes moon, sun, stars to be his Lord [6:76-78], yet Muslims believe that all prophets are without any sin. Edited by: starjade at: 9/11/04 2:19 pm starjade Member Posts: 132 (9/7/04 5:11 pm) Re: The Lord King Starjade says: ( Pt 11.) Shirker salaudinnynj you say: There are instances in the Bible of persons who were given gift of prophecy only, but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their message, were the prophets lot, Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, and John the Baptist. They could only deliver the message, but could not enforce the Law. The Holy Prophet Jesus (Peace p.b.u.h) also belonged to this category. The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this: when Jesus was dragged before the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, Charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defence to refute the false charge: JESUS ANSWERED, "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD': IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD, THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, THAT I SHOULD NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS; BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE" (John 18:36) This convinced Pilate (A Pagan) that though Jesus might not be in full possession of his mental faculty, he did not strike him as being a danger to his rule. Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a Prophet. Is this true?" The dominee answered: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses." Starjade says: Jesus was executed for the Crime of Blasphemy and that fate should have been the same for Muhammad because Muhammad is guilty of Blasphemy. I note that your obsession with Jesus is stopping you from displaying statements that could actually prove the claims you are making about Mad Muhammad. Where is your evidence. All you are doing is saying that jesus is not like Moses so you can dispute the claim that Jesus has made that he is that very prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. Which everyone but a Muslims knows that Jesus has claimed himself to be that specific Prophet. Now you are trying to refute that claim of Jesus and trying to disprove it. So you can promote Mad Muhammad as being that prophet instead. But Muhammad believed in Jesus are you then saying that Muhammad is a liar. And the Koran glorifies Jesus as being the Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be. Are you then saying the Koran is wrong. Well at last something we could agree on. Why not find out about the claims of Jesus and how the Christians claim Jesus was just like Moses. Author Iris: A Christian. Discourse on Moses Foretold the Coming of Jesus (Yeshua): Edited by: starjade at: 9/11/04 2:19 pm starjade Member Posts: 133 (9/7/04 5:23 pm) Re: The Lord King Starjade says: ( Pt 12.) Shirker salaudinnynj you say: No New Laws (6) "Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-mothers; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATION.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form. Starjade says: Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 is one of those Laws brought down by Moses and was given to Moses by the Living God. As you may note I often am the Giver of that Law and other laws. Many men make laws but that does not make them a Prophet from God. Please Shirker salaudinnynj cause me to laugh again and let us all know about those (cough) Prophecies of Mad Muhammad and Oh please do tell us what he said about those End of Times. After all we all know that the Prophet God was going to raise up was going to come along to gather up all those Jews from the four corners of the Globe and lead those Jews to a New promised Land. Which by the way will arrive in the South Eastern Atlantic Basin next to Africa in that apocalyptic Future an actual map of that event is on the End of Times web site and a narrative of those maps is found in Starjades Journey beyond the Grave. But hey we all want to hear what Mad Muhammad had to say: (cough) erm didn�t he say that it would grow very dark and Frell all else. But you know bringing out laws for people to follow is the beginnings of civilisation not because some grunt claims that he is a Prophet from God. Anyone can make a law but only a few can be proven to be a Prophet from God and Muhammad sure as Hell is not one of those who can prove that he is a Prophet from God. In fact the Sura 4:82 says if one error is found in the Koran then the Koran was not sent by God as Mad Muhammad has claimed. ( tell me Shirker salaudinnynj do any of these errors exist in the Koran. ) I1i: Moses The first concerns the adoption of Moses by Pharaoh's wife (in sura 28:9). This story contradicts the Biblical Exodus 2:10 version, which states that it was Pharaoh's daughter who adopted Moses. It is important to note here that had Pharaoh's wife adopted Moses, he would have consequently been adopted by Pharaoh himself, making him heir to the throne. This fact alone makes the subsequent story of Moses's capture and exile rather incredulous. I1ii: Yahya According to the Qur'an, no-one bore the name of Yahya before John the Baptist (sura 19:7). Yet, we find that name mentioned in the Old Testament (2 Kings 25:23) implying that it was a well known name hundreds of years before the writing of the Qur'an. Edited by: starjade at: 9/14/04 4:40 pm starjade Member Posts: 134 (9/7/04 5:31 pm) The Lord King Starjade says: (pt 13) Shirker salaudinnynj you said: "From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, "into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREAT SECTION OF THE WORLD. ..." The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before. Starjade says: Muhammad was not a poor man he married rich he did not always marry little children I forget her name but he married into a wealthy family and was a known trader and so he was hardly the Shepherd that you describe. And Mad Muhammad did not roam around the desert since the beginning of Time what is this Idolisation. In my eyes Arabia is a war zone with lots of Children without arms and legs and abject Poverty is rife whiles the fat cat Arab Kings and their princes indulge in luxury. So things are not as you are claiming them to be. And it is only the discovery of Oil that Made Arabia what it is today that is its only reason for gaining any Power in this world so you are being deceptive. Of course it is clear you down loaded these statements of the net and probably did not read them. But I have already seen statements likened to these full of Idolatry and Bulldump. Edited by: starjade at: 9/11/04 2:20 pm starjade Member Posts: 135 (9/7/04 5:50 pm) The Lord King Starjade says: (pt 14) Discourse on Moses Foretold the Coming of Jesus (Yeshua): Shirker salaudinnynj you said: As regards Jesus, when the Jews felt suspicious of him that he might be an impostor with designs to pervert their teachings, Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion - no new laws and no new regulations. I quote his own words: 'THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.'(Mathew 5:17-18). In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfil the old law. This what he gave the Jews to understand- unless he was speaking with the tongue in his cheek trying to bluff the Jews into accepting him as a man of God and by subterfuge trying to ram a new religion down their throats. No! This Messenger of God would never resort to such fo ul means to subvert the Religion of God. He himself fulfilled the laws. He observed the commandments of Moses, and he respected the Sabbath. At no time did a single Jew point a finger at him to say, 'why don't you fast' or 'why don't you wash your hands before you break bread',which charges they always levied against his disciples, but never against Jesus. This is because as a good Jew he honoured the laws of the prophets who preceded him. In short, he had created no new religion and had brought no new law like Moses and Muhummed. Is this true?" I asked the dominee, and he answered: "Yes." I said: "Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses." Starjade says: I note you ignore Islamic Law and the Law of the Old Testament. What is this obsession with inventing laws it is baffling. The Prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up was going to come here just before the apocalypse when as it was in the days of Noah there would be an extinction of the species. So the Prophet God promised was going to gather up those Jews from the four corners of the Globe and lead them all to the safety of a new promised land. Now in my view that would make that prophet well busy and his time would be taxed. So as Moses already has laid down the law then why would that prophet ever need to invent new Laws. And the invention of laws to tame a society is not a quality that makes that man a Prophet from God. Prophets Prophesy the future and that is what makes them Prophet not because they could reason out any laws. And as the Jews already have a religion then why would that Prophet that is expected in their religion ever need to re invent a new religion you just are not thinking with any form of Logic. I have invoked an Islamic law that you would claim came from Mad Muhammad. That law says if you know something that is not true you must be unafraid and stand up and state it and then the Matter will be discussed and whatever is found to be true will be accepted as being true and whatever is found to be false will be rejected as being false. I invoke that Islamic law a lot when talking with Muslims for that allows them the freedom of speech that their own religioun denies. Now Mad Muhammad is a fraud and a liar and not a prophet from god and the Koran did not come from God and is not the final revelation. The Sura 4:82 says if one error is found in the Koran then that is proof that the Koran did not come from God. We all know you have heard of that Sura 4:82 by now as Starjade is the Law Giver and I have invoked Islamic law and pointed out may yes many errors in the Koran. Tell me shirker salaudinnynj do these two errors exist in the Koran. Come on now do not shirk reply an answer do these two errors exist in the Koran. And when you reply remind yourself that according to the Sura 4.82 if one error exists in the Koran then that is proof that the Koran did not come from God as Muhammad has claimed and that also proves that the word of Muhammad is not trust worthy and in fact he has been out right caught out in a lie. Because God does not make errors and Mad Muhammad claimed the Koran came from God. So come on answer do those two errors exist in the Koran. Well we all know that they do and that proves Mad Muhammad is a liar and fraud. Now that means that Muhammad was nothing like Moses because Moses had a thing called integrity. 1. And it just doesn't add up: Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property. 2. How many angels were talking to Mary? When the Qur'an speaks about the announciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21. Edited by: starjade at: 9/14/04 4:43 pm starjade Member Posts: 136 (9/7/04 6:02 pm) The Lord King Starjade says: (pt 15) Shirker salaudinnynj you said: How they Departed (7) "Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross.1 Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I averred: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses." Starjade says: So now you think the way a person dies is under discussion. As a matter of fact there is controversy on the statements on how Jesus was claimed to have died. One Christian Bible states very clearly in their old Bible that the Christ died upon a Tree and yet the Roman Christian Bible say that Jesus died upon a Cross. So there are two testimony accounts as to how Jesus actually was said to have died. The reason is of course to do with the sacred key to Heaven and Hell that grew upon the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. The Christ was in fact a Mushroom that is born of a virgin birth. It can live in a day and die in a night but if you wait around after 3 days it will resurrect itself. But I think that knowledge of those hidden things are way beyond you understanding so I will not go into all of that. But there are things about Christianity that are not so well known and it is this Mushroom that actually does connect the New Testament to the Old. But it had nothing to do with jesus but had a lot to do with the Christ. As for Jesus being likened to Moses well the Christians have their own statements that disagree with yours and they claim that jesus was very much like Moses in their proclamations. Now Iris is a Christian and an expert in her field of the Christian religion far more so than any Muslim would ever be with their delusions about Mad Muhammad and so why not click the Link and hear how the Christians say that jesus was like Moses and how those statements contradict the beliefs that you are now trying to project and convince us all of and failing might I add. Author the Christian Iris. The Christians claim Jesus is likened to moses. Discourse on Moses Foretold the Coming of Jesus (Yeshua): Edited by: starjade at: 9/14/04 4:45 pm

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