 "Is it the QB or the System?"-by several posters |
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The following thread is a
great example the board threshing out an intriguing question--and one with particular
interest for the Rams' future. W V Ram raises the question of how much of this offense's
success. The thread has been edited for the sake of length and focus. All references to Zooey's bold assertion that he could readily be substituted for Kurt Warner with no diminution in effectiveness have been silently removed. OK, not so silently, and not ALL references ... sheesh! As for JJM's nomination for Zooey as MLB--preposterous! We HAVE London on the job, after all. Say, Zooey--can you keep your feet on a tackle? If so ... Could ANYONE QB this offense? By wv ram (12/27) My only remaining question about the Rams QB still lingers in my mind. I know Warner is good, and maybe great. But Green looked great too in preseason against tough defenses...so...maybe, just maybe...it's Not them. Maybe it's Faulk, and Bruce and Holt and AZ and Proehl and Pace and Timmerman... Maybe any "good" Quarterback would be elevated to "greatness" by having those weapons at his disposal. It's not a real important question. But I wonder about it a lot. I may get a better feel for the answer when Trent Green gets traded. I will watch how he plays with 'another' offense. With the Rams, he looked 'great'. How will he look with the Steelers or Bucs or Chiefs or Raiders...? What if he looks 'ordinary' with another team? How would Warner look on say, the Steelers? Would he be 'great'? How would Brad Johnson or Beuerlein or Gannon or Elvis Grbec look on the Rams? wv ram Steve replies: Great is being the best in ratings ever, throwing the most touch downs, etc... but you must still win the SuperBowl. And being great is a tribute to the team and the chemistry. Being good is getting close...there are probably about 5 good quarterbacks right now, the rest are mediocre. That is a good question. But would the offense be as good with or without him. I remember Denver being good and everybody shouting about how "great" Elway was, but he did not win the superbowl until Terrel Davis showed up, even with other running backs, and it took him 14 years to do it. And he did not come close to the quarterback rating that Kurt has amassed after 1 year. If he wins the SuperBowl this year, he certainly deserves the title as the best at this time, and only time will dictate if he gets the title "great". Great quarterbacks have to last the trial of time. san fRAM replies: Warner IS great. No doubt, IMO. While it's true that he does have the best weapons in the league, take a look at how well he allows those weapons to utilize their skills. He does what he HAS to do to get them the ball. THAT'S his job. That's the job of ANY QB, really! And he does his job extraordinarily well. In fact, I would go so far as to say that NO QB in the entire league could do it AS WELL as he has in this system - with the possible exception of Green and/or Manning. Warmer is tremendously accurate and has GREAT 'touch'. Keep in mind all the *perfect* passes that Kurt has thrown that were dropped! Look at yesterday's game alone - at least one perfect TD pass was dropped - through no fault of Warner's. And surely you haven't forgotten the perfectly thrown passes your buddy Torry Holt has dropped this season?! ;) ALL quarterback's - for that matter ALL *players* - are dependant to some extent on their teammates around them for their success. But would you say Montana and Young weren't great because they had Rice and Taylor and Craig and everybody else to throw to? And would you say *Rice* wasn't great because he had Montana and Young throwing TO him?! Of course not. Warner IS great - and he is the best QB in the league right now. Green is great, too, IMO. Damn - there's that pesky problem again! ;) Unless Warner's injured (God forbid), look for him to be our starter for years to come. san fRAM wv ram replies, "Randall Cunningham great?" Well, its a difficult question for me. Just a couple of things. You say: "ALL quarterback's - for that matter ALL *players* - are dependant to some extent on their teammates around them for their success. But would you say Montana and Rice weren't great because they had Rice and Taylor and Craig and everybody else to throw to?..." That's very true. In a team sport all players are dependent on their teammates -- so how do you figure out just who is better than whom. I think the way I try to resolve is it is to look at the player over TIME. I 'know' Montana was great because he displayed uncanny talents over a long period of time. Over many years all his talents were revealed. Then again, Montana was NOT as "great" when he moved to Kansas City, was he? He couldnt win the big one for the Chiefs. So maybe his supporting cast of players (and coaches) are what he 'needed' to be truely 'great'. I dont know. The reason the question lingers in my mind is because of the 'Trent Green' factor. Trent Green looked every bit as great as Kurt Warner during the preseason. Zack contends that Green was playing even "better" than Warner. Now NOBODY was saying Trent Green was "great" when he played for Washington. And even though we all thought Green would be an upgrade over Banks this year, I dont remember anyone saying he was a "great" quarterback. But once he started playing with this offense -- Boom -- all of a sudden, Trent Green is playing "great". (QB rating of 126, I believe) So what happened with Green? Is he a "great" QB, or, is the Rams offensive arsenal unique. Would this offense make a "good" QB "great" ? If the answer is 'yes', then maybe it doesnt really matter which QB stays or goes. I have seen a great arsenal make a journeyman QB look Great before. Last year the Vikings put together something similar to the Rams. Moss, Carter, Reed, Hatchet, R.Smith -- and, all of a sudden R.Cunningham is "great". Never was before. So maybe it wasnt him. Maybe the offense "made" him "great". Maybe any QB would look great on the vikes. Maybe not. Cunninghams on the bench now. wv ram san fRAM replies: I absolutely agree that true, lasting "greatness" comes from consistancy over time. I wasn't saying that Warner is already "one for the ages" or a "lock for the Hall of Fame," but I AM saying I think he IS great. He's having a great year. An HISTORIC year. Cunningham last year never came CLOSE to all the personal records that Warner is going to acheive this year - even with all of those weapons HE had. You can speculate that Warner will be or might be or could be a "one-year wonder" like many before him. I don't think he is. Why? This ain't his first gig. Look at what he did in the Arena and Europe leagues. This guy has set records and been a winner EVERYWHERE he's played. He played great in the Arena league. He played great in the Europe league. He's playing great in the NFL. That, to me, makes him a "great" QB. Man, some of you guys are tough to please! ;) As far as this: >>"So what happened with Green? Is he a "great" QB, or, is the Rams offensive arsenal unique."<< Both. IMO. san fRAM Steve replies: Nice answer..I agree..Kurt has been a winner where ever he goes..but in my book...his greatness comes from giving away more money this year than he makes...He is a true role model, along with Faulk...He isn't in it for the greed or accolades....I have never seen anybody in pro sports give away more than four times the amount of money he makes...I want my children to grow up and use him as a model....forget Jordan, this guy is for real... |
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