Well, my problem is not flashes. I never had them. It's both vaginal changes and impending osteoporosis. Both my gynecologist and my naturopath feel that there is good reason for me to try nat. prog. cream. One of them gave me a prescription that I had filled at a compounding pharmacy. I understand that I can also get compounded prescriptions at Women's' International Pharmacy. What do you all think of them?

Re: Dr. Lee - IMO, if something might make you feel better, it is certainly worth a try, but, IMO, I would be cautious assuming that using this would protect you from heart disease or osteoporosis. I have read Dr. Lee's book and he makes what are, IMO, many broad generalizations (one being that NP has "no" side effects - something I and others know from personal experience is patently NOT TRUE. That may be the case for some people, but for others, me included, it can make life miserable). Since I know at least ONE of his statements is untrue, it makes me doubt the BROAD truth of the others; I don't think it's impossible that this can help, but personally I am doubtful it will help everybody and therefore would not feel good about relying on it to do so. I guess if he were more specific and less broad in his comments about this being the thing for all women, I might think his studies worth more. IMO and in my experience, if it sounds to good to be true, it generally is. 

IMO, weight training and better diet are more proven ways of fighting potential osteoporosis. If the NP causes no bad effects for you, perhaps it will help you - I know women whom it HAS helped with peri/post-meno symptoms; the bone effect is harder to determine. Good luck, but IMO you'd be well served by using other methods of bone building in addition to the NP if you continue to use it. 

 We do not really know if any hormone, natural or synthetic, is safe for women with breast cancer. The challenge is to find the one with the lowest risk acceptable to each of us. At some point overall quality of life may matter more than a long and miserable life with constant fractures.

As yet,  I have seen no scientific studies or attempts at them, on the effects of prescription natural progesterone cream, except for the one done by Dr. Lee, who is obviously not on your accepted list of authorities to believe in.

If you are going to self treat with OTC progesterone cream at least, please let your doctor know that you are doing it in case you should have a reaction to it.  The King's College doctors claim that it isn't well absorbed.  Dr. Lee swears that it is, but only shows up in saliva tests and they insist on using blood tests.  One day, I am sure we will know the facts.  Until we do, it pays to be careful. 

There is no "magic"  or "specific" treatment.  If  you have read the extensive medical literature, as I have,  you will be aware that there are no treatments for problems resulting from menopause for women with breast cancer that may be considered without risk.

Maybe somebody can explain to me what he was trying to tell me about saliva tests and progesterone. He says that when you use transdermal progesterone it never appears in the blood plasma - only in the saliva.  When I questioned this because saliva is a blood filtrate - he said that all the progesterone in the blood is bound to cell protein.  So, if it stays bound in the blood; how can it get into the saliva? He also used a study from the British Journal of Cancer which showed women having surgery later in the cycle or having more serum progesterone having a higher survival rate than those having surgery earlier in their cycles.  His proposal from this was that it would increase the survival rate of all women having breast cancer surgery to use natural progesterone cream after surgery.  My question is how can he say this when he just said that you can't measure progesterone in the blood.  Those women weren't using his cream but just had more endogenous progesterone at the time of surgery - which was measured in the blood.  He couldn't answer my question so that I could understand it.  He just continued to say that his progesterone is passed into the saliva and the "other progesterone" is bound to cell protein on its way out of the body through the liver into the bile. 
fiona

Hi  I had posted here a few days ago, after going through a complete hyst. Thanks to those of you who responded. I would like to take a minute and share my feelings.  It seems as though there is some controversy about Nat. Pro..  I hope I do not offend anyone by saying that I have taken NP for just about 3 months now.  I went through it all before surgery as far as treatment goes.  I took NP to try to inhibit the growth.  It did not work.  However, I do believe that taking NP has definitely helped me with the menopausal symptoms.  I started to get hot flashes 6 days after surgery and thought I wouldn't make it through the day.  I increased my Vit E intake and I am happy to say 4 days after they are less frequent and intense.  I am having a hard time with migraines though, I'm not sure what to do about that.  I did read Dr. Lee's book.  I found although it didn't have yrs of testing to support its claims, the info gathered made sense to me. I am pleased with the results thus far, I hope it continues. Perhaps I am just lucky, who knows.  I am a bit interested in what all the controversy is about?  If anyone is interested in letting me know, I would appreciate it. Thanks..

Anecdote and personal testimony may be adequate for some who wish to experiment with commercial products costing $35 a month along with confirming saliva tests that cost several hundred dollars when these products fail to work as promised, but this may also be considered foolhardy and sham by others. 

The issue of controversy is only over whether a product market should be driven by personal testimony or scientific fact. And the controversy is when these two marketing features get confused. You presented personal testimony and some of us feel that scientific fact is also required when these commercial products are discussed and/or marketed. 

And how can one tell who is really posting what on this medium? How do we know your personal story is legitimate or whether you are just trying to sell drugs? We call all look up cited scientific articles and reach our own conclusions, but personal testimony can only stand alone until it is adequately validated. 

Recently a poster who sells these products finally admitted they didn't do a darn thing for menopausal symptoms while she zealously cried out that we should all try them and charged this need was based upon her reaction to our personalities, and that she had declared anyone who criticized her sales techniques as "hags" in sure need of her wares. 

What would make a poster react like this over this product? Is this credible marketing of a credible product? If this is not controversial and offensive marketing about sham products, I don't know what more you need to see about this issue. 

When you have signs and symptoms of menopause that are (1) subjective and (2) episodic, it is very hard to make competent decisions to transfer $35 a month to some stranger for a product that has no science behind it. Why not transfer $35 to yourself and save up for something more fun and worthwhile? Or donate it to a scholarship at your local community college? Why transfer $35 a month for a placebo product unless you think it has some validity? And how do we get that validity? 

Your personal experience has many holes in it to call it science. First who knows who you are and this is not meant to be an attack but women who sell these products come on all the time with suspect personal testimonies. You are dealing with symptom alleviation that is highly individualistic in any circumstance. There has been shown to be no therapeutic dose in any of these OTC cremes which means that the placebo effect must also be accounted for. Placebo runs as high as 60% for meno effect, why this specific product and why $35 a month for placebo? Why not placebo from something that costs no money? 

The efficacy of a product validates itself over time and multiple experiences.. You own experience may be short lived but we will never know that unless you choose to report it beyond your first flush of success.  And your first flush of success may well be a coincidental variation of symptoms, which would happen no matter what you did or took at this time. 

No one is ever saying not to try with whatever level of body experimentation you feel comfortable with. But you asked what all the fuss was about a product that is giving you some personal success. I am only providing context for why there is reasonable controversy over the use of this product and the transfer of $35 a month to some stranger for it. 

Everyone is looking for comfort and it is good you have found your own. Your personal story is important and it will be added to the other personal stories of women who have not found your level of success with use of this product. And in time with enough responsible and complete stories, we may actually learn something about it. 
Shelly 

When one has a hysterectomy, your estrogen level drops 40-60%, but is still actively produced.  Your progesterone level drops to just about nothing.   YET, the Dr's insist upon supplementing us with estrogen, NO progesterone. Of course this is my opinion, but what about the progesterone?

 Many women still opt to use HRT, despite some unpleasant side effects.

From what I understand,  most people who suffer from "womanly" problems have been diagnosed as being estrogen dominant.

YET, the Dr's insist upon supplementing us with estrogen, NO progesterone. Of course this is my opinion, but what about the progesterone?

There have been studies to support the use of progesterone with the term used in the general sense, such as the study I mentioned above. These are not NHRT studies. Jerilynn Prior, an endocrinologist has done some research and is quite enthusiastic about the use of progesterone. She has her own version of the estrogen dominance theory, she calls it "perimenopausal ovarian hyperstimulation". This is of course for women who have ovaries and who have at times too much estrogen. She feels this may be quite common just before menopause and is the cause of heavy bleeding, fibroids, and endo at this time. She does not talk about too little progesterone because progesterone in her opinion as an endocrinologist is only required for reproduction.  But she is talking about peri-menopause and your questions on NHRT were on women with a surgical menopause were they not? Are we talking about apples and oranges?  Jerilynn Prior feels that women with these estrogen upheavals (or what you seem to call estrogen dominance) should not take any supplementary estrogen until at least 1 year past their final period. This sure makes sense to me. But I don't know if that helps with your question on why do women take HRT. I don't see how a natural estrogen would be any different.  Or do you think these women with too much estrogen should take a progesterone to counteract the estrogen? Yes Jerilynn Prior suggests this may help women with severe symptoms. But this is not hormone replacement, this is hormone treatment or therapy. Do you understand the difference? There is certainly not anything natural about it. Either a progestin such as Provera or a natural progesterone such as (in Canada) Prometrium can be used to counter the effects of the estrogen. Either will work. Some would say that the natural progesterone has fewer side effects. 

 I do not know about the women who choose to do HRT. I had so many problems with my hormone levels during peri that adding to the problem by taking supplementary hormones did not make sense to me.

Perhaps it would help us if you describe what you mean by NHRT? I also suggest that you go to tishy's unofficial webpage and look at the Ovarian Hormone Therapy page and see why she thinks that OHT is a better way to describe the taking of supplementary hormones then to use the term  HRT.  This may clear up a lot of the misunderstanding some of us are having with the term NHRT.  I just looked at the ng, and see your questions have generated a lot of response. I hope you do not feel jumped on, this is an issue that does need to be clarified if we are to understand each other and share experiences 
Kathryn

We're up front about this site being one sided. Some women have bad reactions to progesterone
products. Hardly anyone is listening. Some women should not be using progesterone. You may be one of them. You will have to make that decision for yourself, we're not here to diagnose or to convince you either way. Read the contraindications, consider your medical history both physical and mental, take a close look at your state of mind and then read the stories. You may recognize yourself in another woman's story. If that's the case, take a closer look at the known negative effects to progesterone, reconsider your physical and mental medical history with a bluntness and if necessary, research some more. 

 Don't let this website convince you that you should not be taking progesterone. And by the same measure, don't let any mailing lists convince you that you should. Research, research, research.