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What is the meaning of the word crone? I have attempted to make this complex thread understandable by using a different colour for each poster |
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I believe that the crone in witchcraft is a hag--slumped and tired, not a pretty picture. But with the magick of witchcraft the hag can become an enchantress. Is this why some women are eager to apply this word to themselves? I don't believe in magic bullets or other magic potions. Witchcraft practitioners believe that the craft imbues them with certain powers through the use of magick potions and spells. Beauty bestows powers too.
PJ's Statement, " I enjoy keeping up my looks, I
PJ wrote: resa, I kind of guess you look pretty darn good yourself! :-) From Resa: Thanks PJ. I have always considered that I look somewhat blandly pretty. But, I have always wanted to look like Chrissie Hynde, the rockmusician. She is not now, nor was she ever a pretty girl, but she looks energetic. Now that I am getting older I intend to try and stay in shape. I did once stop traffic and cause an accident. Don't know if the man who abruptly shifted into reverse and rammed the car behind him while giving me room to walk in the crosswalk, was appreciative of my fire-engine red hair rinse or whether he just might have been trying to get out of there! So in our efforts to control and have power over our lives some resort to magic/magick and others rely on doing their best to stay in good health without magic remedies. (Resa) |
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Note: Entries in this size font are quotes from earlier posts in the thread Beauty bestows powers too.But beauty's power is transient; everyone who's ever read a fairy tale knows that. PJ's Statement, " I enjoy keeping up my looks, I enjoy working out and when the time comes I will get plastic surgery." reflects her appreciation of her own attractiveness and her willingness to put effort into staying in good shape.Appreciating one's own attractiveness and having a willingness to put effort into staying in good shape don't necessarily have a connection to beauty or the willingness to have plastic surgery. I don't know who Chrissie Hynde is, but looking energetic is a good thing. Energy doesn't have much to do with beauty, but to me, it has much to do with attractiveness. Some of the most attractive people I know aren't beautiful. Btw,
I have also stopped traffic, though no accident ensued. (Wearing Hawaiian
clothes in a Connecticut winter tends to do that.) Anon
According to Webster a crone is a withered old woman. Crone is derived from the word 'carrion" This is the standard accepted definition, and like others I wonder why an added burden of redefining the meaning of this word would be helpful to better understanding of women who have reached menopause?This is certainly one interpretation of crone, Resa, but there *is* another view, quite widely accepted among the pagan-wiccan-goddess communities, and dating back much further than good old Webster --back, some historians believe, to well before the patriarchal religions that gave rise to the Judeo-Christian scheme of things. In that "Triple Goddess" worldview, women are seen to pass through well-defined stages of life, each rich with experience and opportunity, and each worthy of honor. Typically, the stages are defined as maiden, mother and crone. The maiden is the fresh young virgin; the mother is the woman during her most productive (and reproductive) years; the crone is the wise, fulfilled, self-actualized woman who grows out of the other two. She is also called the Dark Mother, because she is the portal to death. This may not be precisely mainstream, but it's part of a very old, very honorable symbolic tradition, echoed in the Western myths of Demeter and Persephone, among others. The notion of reclaiming "crone" is hardly something dreamed up in a.s.m. Here
are a few Web sites that explore these traditions:
This is certainly one interpretation of crone, Resa, but there *is* another view, quite widely accepted among the pagan-wiccan-goddess communities, and dating back much further than good old Webster --back, some historians believe, to well before the patriarchal religions that gave rise to the Judeo-Christian scheme of things.This view is not confined to the communities you list here, Pat. They are also the view of the crone as presnted in the humanities, the liberal arts and the classics. In that "Triple Goddess" worldview, women are seen to pass through well-defined stages of life, each rich with experience and opportunity, and each worthy of honor. Typically, the stages are defined as maiden, mother and crone. The maiden is the fresh young virgin; the mother is the woman during her most productive (and reproductive) years; the crone is the wise, fulfilled, self-actualized woman who grows out of the other two. She is also called the Dark Mother, because she is the portal to death.I take issue with "productive" here. A mother with young children is in no position to be "productive" in any sense other than taking care of her "products" -her children. Only when that duty has been fulfilled does a woman have the time, the leisure, and maybe the wisdom to be productive in a more general sense. I think that was as true in ancient times as it is now. There are too many ancient myths about godesses embarking on voyages of self discovery in middle age for that not to have been the case. The story of Inanna springs to mind for example. Help me out here, Laura, what's the name of the 14th century woman who wrote her diaries of her various pilgrimmages to the Holy Land -Marjorie something? And of course there's the Wife of Bath. I think the notion of the wise old woman is very mainstream. Margery Kempe. I think she was early fifteenth century, or possibly straddled the two centuries. Whatever. There's a whole web site about her, "Mapping Margery Kempe," including an online version of the Book of Margery Kempe, atOf course the story of the old woman who prances about as mutton dressed like lamb also has a long history. Equating
health with the *appearance* of health or even worse "beauty" strikes me
as bizarre in the extreme. I'd rather *be* healthy than look healthy, if
I have to choose. O(thers) MMV.Terri
This view is not confined to the communities you list here, Pat. They are also the view of the crone as presnted in the humanities, the liberal arts and the classicsAf course. Many scholars consider it likely that the humanities, etc., received these archetypes from the primordial religions that first defined them. I take issue with "productive" here. A mother with young children is in no position to be "productive" in any sense other than taking care of her "products" -her children. Only when that duty has been fulfilled does a woman have the time, the leisure, and maybe the wisdom to be productive in a more general sense.It depends on what you mean by productive, I think. I've also heard the Mother described as the "maker and doer." It's probably worth pointing out that while the Mother encompasses the reproductive years, she is not defined by her reproductive functions alone. Certainly, most of the mothers-of-children I know think (when they have time to take a breath and reflect) that they are involved in work which goes beyond simply bearing babies and seeing that they are fed and clothed. Conversely, many who don't bear children nonetheless fit the "mother" archetype, although what they give birth to (metaphorically speaking) may be works of the hand or mind. The beauty of these archetypes, to me, is that they are broad enough to encompass most of us, if we are willing to embrace them. Equating health with the *appearance* of health or even worse "beauty" strikes me as bizarre in the extreme.Speaking strictly for myself, until both of my kids actually finished university and moved out into the world on their own as independent adults, I didn't realize how much of my time, energies and life itself had been wrapped up in them. Not so much the feeding and clothing and taking them to their extracurricular activities but doing things in a certain way because they were *there* and I was responsible for them. I'm saying "I" but I should be saying "we" -my husband was as wrapped up in being a "father" as I was in being a "mother. Because we lived so far from family, summers were spent taking the kids to visit their extended family so they would *know* their aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins. And of course museums and galleries and sightseeing trips. I did some community work -got the kids involved in some of that too and volunteered at the various schools etc. And went back to school to get my degrees in history and literature. I'd still say I was pretty much a "mother" and not really much else for more than 20 years. I stayed home with them from the time they were 2 and 4, a deliberate choice because I thought it was what I needed to do. Others' experiences obviously are very different. Our kids are our friends now -they visit/call because they want to not because they think they have to, and we offer advice only when asked. And if I sound like a proud mother who thinks she did a damn good job of raising her kids -I am. (Terri) Sounds as if you have reason to be. The Greek mythological view of the three stages of woman: maiden, mother/wife, crone. The "witch" figure allegedly would ride a broom as it would erase any traces of her journeyings.This is certainly one interpretation of crone, Resa, but there *is* another view, quite widely accepted among the pagan-wiccan-goddess Where is that promised new book from the author of Women Who Run With the Wolves called "Dangerous Old Ladies"? J. Here's another reference to the Triple Goddess from a UK book I picked up today -_Power & Sex: A Book about Women_; Sciilla Elworthy; Element 1996No problem. I've found it interesting to discover how much "Greek mythology" has its roots in even older traditions. Our most abiding cultural mythologies seem to recur time after time, and many of them have much in common with our old friend Carl Jung's concepts of archetype. If one digs deeper into the Crone stories, it becomes easier to understand why the very idea of her strikes fear into so many people. She is, among many other things, the Mother of Death. It's
fascinating how many ways humans find to tell the same essential story,
isn't it?
She is, among many other things, the Mother of Death.And as the "mother of death" she completes the circle. The stories from Women Who Run With The Wolves all seem to have the theme of "life-death-life" over and over again. I had a hard time with that as I was only seeing life as one and death as the other. But throughout life, there are mini-deaths going on all the time, yet new life of a different nature does keep coming forth, so this life-death-life cycle is more the image for during a life time, not just the total picture. (The following is in response to a deleted-by-request post) I know this sort of thing isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I'm finding the current set of discussions very stimulating and thought-provoking. I feel that I've been lucky in terms of the physical aspects of peri --what my body's doing is interesting and sometimes annoying, but I haven't found it debilitating. The real journey, for me, is a spiritual and psychological one, and I don't get many opportunities to talk about that. According to Webster a crone is a withered old woman. Crone is derived from the word 'carrion" This is the standard accepted definition, and like others I wonder why an added burden of redefining the meaning of this word would be helpful to better understanding of women who have reached menopause?There's a long and successful history of oppressed groups reclaiming the words used to help oppress them ("queer," "dyke," "fag," etc.). Once you use a word yourself it's much harder for someone else to use it to hurt you.Verdant crone-in-training This is certainly true, but I never hear old women themselves using the word "crone" in a positive light. There are a lot of old women in this country, and if they embraced this word its accepted meaning probably *would* change. But so far they haven't. Eva Um? Who do you think are going to be the old women soon? Us,that's who -- the women who are posting to this thread. And when we get tobe old women, we'll be old women of whom many are pagans or Wiccans(religions with a history of veneration of the crone archetype), and of whom many more come from communities where reclaiming of "negative" words is commonplace.Verdant, crone-in-training Depends on which "old women" you're talking about. In searching the Web for "crone" sites, I found a *bunch* of sites put up by women in their late 50s and up, merrily embracing cronehood. I suspect this phenomenon will grow as those of us who delved into, erm, alternative spiritualities allow ourselves to accept that we are, in fact, getting old. But, as I said, this isn't mainstream thinking (the hopeful baby crone in me wants to add "yet.") You won't find much about women in general, much less aging women, in the traditions of most mainstream religions or in the culture our current crop of "older" old women grew up in. Not to say there aren't plenty of vibrant, fulfilled old women out there --they just aren't using this particular vocabularly. I'm not talking about crone = goddess or anything. I don't think this is the new use of the word that is evolving. Crone = wise yes. Wise in life experience. Just so that we'll have a full record for this discussion, here's the OED2 listing for "crone." Note that the first written instance, in Chaucer, teams "crone" with "cursed." <opinion> The reclamation of pejoratives by various oppressed groups may work for them, but it doesn't for me. Every time I read or hear the term "queer theory," for instance, I cringe. I understand the rationale behind "queer theory" --it just doesn't work for me. I'm not at all sure I want to join any "reclaim the crone" movement.</opinion> (IMHO, Terri can have "crone" back --we appear to have gotten it from her ancestors.) Laura --begin OED2 listing-- crone
1. A withered old woman. C. 1386 Chaucer Man of Law's T. 334 This olde Sowdones, #is cursed crone [v.r. krone]. 1572 Gascoigne Flowers, Divorce Lover, That croked croane. 1586 Warner Alb. Eng. ii. x, Not long the croen can liue. 1621-51 Burton Anat. Mel. iii. ii. vi. v. (1676) 372 She that was erst a maid as fresh as May, Is now an old Crone. 1640 Brathwait Boulster Lect. 151 This decrepit chrone. 1733 Pope Ep. Cobham 242 The frugal Crone, whom praying priests attend. 1795 Southey Vis. Maid of Orleans iii. 28 There stood an aged crone. 1848 Macaulay Hist. Eng. II. 258 An ancient crone at war with her whole kind. 1873 W. Black Pr. Thule iv. 57 Some old crone hobbling along the pavement. b. Rarely applied to a worn-out old man. In quot. 1844 = `old woman', applied contemptuously. 1630 Brathwait Eng. Gentlem. 457 A miserable crone, who spares when reputation bids him spend. 1822 W. Irving Braceb. Hall (1849) 391 The old crone lived in a hovel..which his master had given him on setting him free. 1844 Disraeli Coningsby ii. i, The Tory party..was held to be literally defunct, except by a few old battered crones of office. 2. An old ewe; a sheep whose teeth are broken off. Also crone sheep crone sheep. 1552 Huloet, Crone or kebber sheape, not able to be holden or kepte forth, adaria, adasia. A. 1577 Gascoigne Dulce bellum Wks. (1587) 127 The sheepmaster his olde cast croanes can cull. 1674 Ray S. & E.C; Words 63 Crones, old Ewes. 1767 A. Young Farmer's Lett. People 217 Fifteen old crones sold fat, with their lambs. 1805 R. W. Dickson Pract. Agric. (1807) II. 678 The crones are..constantly sold at four or five years old. 1854 Jrnl. R. Agric. Soc. XV. ii. 344 In many districts, as on the heath lands of Norfolk, it often happens that..the centrally-placed teeth are broken across their bodies, by the rough plants on which the sheep graze. Such animals are called `crones'. ---end OED2 listing-- But it's all words, and how they're used, isn't it? I sometimes think language is the only *real* magic we have. We invest words with so much power that we react to some of them as if they were physical blows --or, more to the point, actual curses (in the sense of casting a curse on someone). The more I think about it, the more I realize that all those wicked witches casting curses on people were probably just strong, no-bullshit old women speaking their minds. Pat Kight
According to Webster a crone is a withered old woman. Crone is derived from the word 'carrion" This is the standard accepted definition, and like others I wonder why an added burden of redefining the meaning of this word would be helpful to better understanding of women who have reached menopause?Some authorities don't accept that derivation. According to Robert Graves in the "The White Goddess" mankind's ancient roots contain both a triple male God (most familiar to us as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) and a triple female Goddess (most familiar to us as Maiden, Mother, Crone). He considers that in the prehistoric times of our ancestors a Goddess religion generally prevailed, and something happened, certainly a religious revolution, possibly also a political one, perhaps a conquest by invaders, in which the maternal lunar religion was replaced by a paternal solar one. In those days images and words did not have modern cheapness of production and mass production (printing, copying) did not exist. Images consisted of such expensively produced and durable objects as murals and scultpures. Therefore when a new religion overthrew an old one, it made sense if you could re-use the images of the old religion by changing the stories of which they were illustrations, and the original old gods (goddesses) were demonised. Thus when the paternal religion overthrew the maternal one, the Crone, the most powerful member of the female trinity, was demonised as a witch and hag, her lucky number 13 (the number of lunar months in a year) was made evil and unlucky, and the Day of Venus, Friday (Freya or Frigg's day) was made evil and unlucky, leading to the fearsome (for paternalistic Christians) Friday the 13th. The 13 sign lunar Zodiac was banished. The 13th sign is the Spider between Gemini and Taurus, the tale of the Minotaur ([ge]Min -0 -Taur [us]) being an esoteric reference to this, now only used by witches. The old pre-paternal-revolution triple Goddess in Greek terms was Venus (maiden), Moon (Mother), and Saturn (Cronos) Crone. The Greek triple God was Mercury (Hermes), Mars, and Jupiter. Note how in today's language the words derived from the male trinity are positive: mercurial, martial, jovial. Note how the words derived from the female trinity are negative: venereal, lunatic, crone. Note how the only positive word derived from the female trinity, "venerable", is today more likely to be applied to a man than a woman. But isn't Cronos a male god who devoured his children? Of course --now. But "he" is simply a transvestite bowdlerised version of the female goddess, the Crone, the Mistress of Death, who in one form gave birth, and in another brought death, i.e., consumed the children she had brought into the world. The ring of Saturn/Cronos is the ring through which an embodied soul cannot pass, the gate of death. She is also Atropos, one of the three Fates, the one who cuts the thread of life with her single tooth or sickle. Next
time you look at your watch, consider it rather a chronometer (a Cronos
meter), a measure of the small cycles of minutes, hours, days, months,
years, which are the parts of the larger cycle of birth and
It is rather suitable that Saturn/Cronos is mythologically and astrologically the ruler of time, and rather suitable that the old woman, physically bent but spiritually enhanced by the course of time, should be known as a crone. And the Goddess's sacred extra day by which the lunar calendar of 13 months of 28 days = 364 days was reconciled with the solar calendar of 365 days, the "year and a day" of fairy tales, has become trivialised as All Fools Day. And whatever you do in the springtime, *never* on pain of dreadful bad luck bring may flowers into your house. Why not? Because they are the flowers of the Goddess. In sum, the fact that Webster's thinks that "crone" is derived from "carrion" rather than Cronos is simply another example of the demonisation and trivialisation of all aspects of the Female Trinity which has been going on for some thousands of years now. I don't think this is part of a deliberate attempt by the Church authorities to change dictionary entries (although that sort of thing definitely happened in earlier times). It is simply a natural spontaneous expression of the natural distaste which all right-thinking God-fearing men have for the Fearful Female. If
this wasn't a menopause group I could think of a most appropriate suggestion
for what to do with that extremely silly entry on "crone" in Webster's
dictionary :-)
I don't think this is part of a deliberate attempt by the Church authorities to change dictionary entries (although that sort of thing definitely happened in earlier times). It is simply a natural spontaneous expression of the natural distaste which all right-thinking God-fearing men have for the Fearful Female.*splork* Thanks, Chris. My copy of "The White Goddess" seems to be out on permanent loan, but it was one of the first places I remember reading the theory of the usurpation of the early maternal religion by the male religions ... I've found Graves a little irksome for a variety of reasons, but there's no question that he contributed a lot to the modern movement to literally unearth the sources of some of our most abiding cultural symbols. "When God Was a Woman" (Merlin Stone?) was a particularly important eye opener for me and goes over a lot of this "cultural conditioning" of woman's place in western history. This book filled in the final missing piece that I had not up to that point really understood. I was still stuck in trying to work within the thinking of this western "patriarchal" ethic. The book moved me well beyond this.I wonder if the fear of crones isn't directly tied to the fear of Cronos; i.e., the inexorable march of time toward inevitable death. I do believe that one of our primary "jobs" in old age is to face death and, ultimately, accept the fact of our own mortality. I also understand that this is a very scary proposition for most of us, and quite possibly a source of much of the anxiety we may feel on approaching menopause. In very concrete, physical ways, women feel our clocks (there's that Cronos again) winding down. However hopeful we are that our remaining years will be happy, productive and fulfilled, we are reminded that they are limited. Unlike the Maiden, who sees a limitless vista of days stretching out before her, ripe with opportunity and free for the wasting , the Crone *knows* her days are numbered. This can be depressing, but it can also lead to a new resolve to clear away the trivial and non-essential time-consumers so that one may live those remaining days to their fullest. Coming to grips with mortality can also lead one to a fine and (I think) healthy) sense of the macabre. My current favorite screen-saver, for instance, comes from http://www.deathclock.com ... It sits there on my computer at work, ticking away the seconds of my (actuarily estimated) life. My Young Man (who admits that he can't even *think* about death without getting clammy palms) thinks this is sick. I think it's a hoot.Pat Kight |