Conversation with †ILiveForTheSavior†1

With Dawson Bethrick (the "CertainVerdict")

 

The following chat dialogue was extracted from the Jesus is the Answer Chatroom on MSN Chat, December 19, 2002.

The conversant †ILiveForTheSavior†1 was a Christian who enthusiastically defended both the notion that we should not work on "the Sabbath," per the 10 Commandments, as well as the doctrine of faith. Dawson hits the believer with a few questions and points which he obviously did not anticipate.

 

The 10 C's and Working on "the Sabbath"

WANTED2016 : if jesus was a jew how cum we do not follow the jewish religion

CertainVerdict : Wanted, good question.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : WANTED..Jesus was a Jew..but Jesus wasn't here only for the Jews

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : the "religion" that He taught was the Word of God

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : not the word of any particular group of people

CertainVerdict : Are we supposed to follow the 10 commandments?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : Yes Certain, we are

CertainVerdict : Savior, what about working on the sabbath?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : Certain, the Sabbath is a Holy Day

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : but the day of Sunday is the day that some believe is the Sabbath

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : others believe that it is Saturday

CertainVerdict : Savior, that's not really my question.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : My answer to that would be this, Certain

CertainVerdict : Savior, okay.

CertainVerdict : Savior, go on.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : we should have one day set aside to worship God

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : that day is our Sabbath

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : for my church, we do that on Sunday

CertainVerdict : Savior, would you say that the believer should not work that day?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : Certain, We should not do any work but the Work of God on that day

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : that is my interpretation on that

CertainVerdict : Savior, I see. So, on Sundays, you don't do any work?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : no I don't Certain

CertainVerdict : Savior, even laundry, mowing the lawn, going to the grocery store, etc?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : work is a physical work, as I look at it

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : and to answer your question, I do go to the grocery store on Sunday

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : that is part of the task of sustaining life

CertainVerdict : Wanted, by lots of study, experience in life, etc.

CertainVerdict : Savior, but that is physical.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : so you think that we should do nothing physical, is that your point, Certain?

CertainVerdict : Savior, it's not about what I think, since I am not a follower of the Judeo-Christian view.

CertainVerdict : Savior, I just want to know what believers think, since they continually tell us that we should honor the 10 C's.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : Jesus worked on the appointed Sabbath

CertainVerdict : Savior, what if your employer schedules you to work on a Sunday?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : then I do work..but I then set aside another day to worship

CertainVerdict : Savior, I see. So, it's rather flexible, right?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : flexible as to the certain day of the week, I will say yes, Certain

CertainVerdict : Savior, interesting.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : flexible as to the fact of worshipping, No

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : You can worship just as well on a Monday as you can a Saturday or a Sunday

CertainVerdict : Savior, I've known some believers who think as you do, and many others who regard it as not flexible, too.

CertainVerdict : Savior, I don't find a lot of uniformity on this matter.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : well Certain...to be totally honest, it is not mentioned in the Bible the exact "day of the week" of the Sabbath

CertainVerdict : Savior, indeed. Many such details are not given.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : so Certain, the exact day of the week of the Sabbath is truly "set by man"

 

Belief Versus Faith

CertainVerdict : Should I believe something just because someone tells me to believe it?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : No Certain!!!!!

CertainVerdict : Savior, why not?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : You have to believe it for yourself, not because you are told it

 

Here Savior's remarks suggest that one should accept only those claims which one has validated firsthand. And of course, I would agree with this. But let's pursue this matter.

 

CertainVerdict : Savior, on what basis then?

CertainVerdict : Savior, I "have to believe it"?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : on the basis of faith, Certain

CertainVerdict : Savior, explain.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : Certain, may I ask you a question?

CertainVerdict : Savior, sure

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : Do you believe that the Revolutionary War took place?

CertainVerdict : Savior, which one?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : the war between England and the Colonists

CertainVerdict : Savior, sure.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : and why do you believe that, Certain?

CertainVerdict : Savior, for one, there is evidence in support of it (I've been to many of the battlefields, and have read works of those involved in the war of the time).

CertainVerdict : Also, there is no evidence which contradicts it.

CertainVerdict : And, it is internally consistent.

CertainVerdict : Savior, those are the basic reasons why.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : Ok Certain...how can you be 100% sure that someone didn't just "create" those battlefields to back up their theory?

CertainVerdict : Savior, why would I entertain such an idea?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : and that someone didn't just make up the evidence?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : this is my point, Certain...if you weren't there when it actually took place

CertainVerdict : Savior, what evidence is there that someone created these battlefields in order to back up a theory?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : you actually have only one reason to believe that it's true..and that reason is faith

 

This is the point which Savior wants to press, but notice that he nowhere validates it. Indeed, he does not define what he means by 'faith' - I have t ask him.

 

CertainVerdict : Savior, I think we are both operating on different views of knowledge.

CertainVerdict : Savior, according to my view, this is not what faith is.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : Certain, think about it for a second with me, please

CertainVerdict : Savior, Okay.

CertainVerdict : Savior, please elaborate your point.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : if you weren't actually there to witness any given event, then you believe it on only one basis..the basis of faith

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : faith that the event actually occurred

CertainVerdict : Savior, that is what you want to argue?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : don't want to argue at all, Certain

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : just trying to make a point

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : the point being that our lives are structured on history

CertainVerdict : Savior, so, you want me to believe your point simply because you say so?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : no I do not, Certain

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : you can only believe if you are convinced to believe

CertainVerdict : Savior, then on what basis would I accept your point?

CertainVerdict : Savior, I don't agree with that.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : like I was saying Certain

CertainVerdict : Savior, can I explain?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : yes, Certain

CertainVerdict : Savior, according to my view, belief is the degree of confidence one has in an idea or claim.

CertainVerdict : Savior, a belief is not the same as a conviction.

CertainVerdict : Savior, for instance.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : ok..and where does that confidence come from?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : ok, sorry Certain..please continue

CertainVerdict : Savior, if my brother asks me, "Where's mother?" and I answer, "I believe she's in the garage doing laundry," I am conveying a lack of certainty.

CertainVerdict : Savior, that confidence comes from a broad context of data inputs.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : I can understand that Certain

CertainVerdict : Savior, for instance, perhaps 10 minutes earlier, she mentioned she was going to do the laundry.

CertainVerdict : Savior, my point is this: When I use the word "believe" such as when I say "I believe that..." I am using this term with the express purpose of conveying a lack of total certainty.

CertainVerdict : Savior, do you understand?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : yes I do understand that Certain

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : and I do agree with you

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : but my point is this also

CertainVerdict : Savior, when I say "I believe that..." I am also expressing the fact that I am open to correction, that I may be wrong.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : what do you believe about history, and historical facts

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : my point is this about the Revolutionary War

CertainVerdict : I believe many things about history. But that is not the same as faith.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : there was no one who was actually there to tell you what actually happened

CertainVerdict : Savior, I think you are saying or suggesting that faith and belief are the same thing.

CertainVerdict : Savior, that is not my view.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : you took the arguments and the text and pictures that were presented to you

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : and then you believed that this war, in fact, did take place, correct?

CertainVerdict : Savior, and you asked something like "how can you be sure that the battlefields were not created in order to support a theory" or hoax.

CertainVerdict : Savior, but I would need evidence that these things were hoaxed in order to entertain such doubt.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : exactly my point Certain

CertainVerdict : Savior, do you think I should entertain doubt for no reason, i.e., arbitrarily?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : we have no evidence that the war did not take place

CertainVerdict : Savior, I think you are missing my point.

CertainVerdict : Savior, and we have oodles of evidence that it did take place.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : no Certain..I think your point is like that of many people

 

My essential point is that I can be certain that the Revolutionary War took place by means of reason, not faith. Indeed, since there is so much evidence in support of the view that such a war took place, the body of evidence is internally consistent, and no previously validated knowledge contradicts the view that this war took place, I have ever epistemological right to claim, on the basis of reason, the certainty that the Revolutionary War indeed took place and was not hoaxed. Also, my point is not to claim that my view is unique.

 

CertainVerdict : Savior, I say that there is more than sufficient evidence to be certain that the war took place.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : Our world lives on "evidence"....but again, I have to weigh this option

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : and I am in no way saying that the war didn't take place

CertainVerdict : Savior, what are you calling an option?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : the option is this, Certain

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : because you or I weren't actually there to witness this

How is this an impediment to certainty? Savior nowhere explains.

CertainVerdict : Savior, do you think I should not be certain that the Revolutionary War took place?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : we therefore believe this based on faith that we were told the truth

 

But recall that above I had asked the question "Should I believe something just because someone tells me to believe it?" Savior's response to this question was "no."

 

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : no no, Certain

CertainVerdict : Savior, even if the issue were something that I did personally witness, a skeptic could still throw up arbitrary doubts to block certainty.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : I am totally convinced that this war took place

CertainVerdict : Savior, i've seen this many, many times.

CertainVerdict : Savior, if you're totally convinced by means of reason, then there's obviously no role for something called "faith."

CertainVerdict : Savior, but this is what you disagree with, right?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : yes Certain..there are doubts that can be thrown up to block certainy in any situation

CertainVerdict : Savior, not just any doubts, I said arbitrary doubts - i.e., baseless doubts.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : I see that also Certain

CertainVerdict : Savior, for instance, "How do you know you aren't a brain in a vat with a bunch of scientists poking and prodding your ganglia?"

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : but anyone can come up with arbitrary doubts

CertainVerdict : Savior, indeed. The problem is that some people take those arbitrary doubts seriously.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : I know that because God says that He created me

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : and the same comes into effect with God, Certain

CertainVerdict : Savior, so, when you ask, "How do you know that those battlefields were not created in order to support" a hoax, I ask, what evidence would support such a hoax theory?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : I have no evidence to contradict that, Certain

CertainVerdict : Savior, and if no evidence for the hoax theory is forthcoming, then I must dismiss this question as a product of arbitrary thinking.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : and you have made my point very clear with that comment, Certain

CertainVerdict : Savior, but earlier, you wanted to equate this knowledge with faith.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : Our world today lacks the key ingredient that Jesus seeks.and that is faith

CertainVerdict : Savior, this is where we will have our dispute, I think.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : yes I did Seeker..for one reason

CertainVerdict : Savior, please explain.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : and that reason is that we were not physically there to witness this fact

CertainVerdict : Savior, what does the faith part do?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : the faith is very simple, Certain

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : faith is believing without actually seeing, or being able to see or touch

CertainVerdict : Savior, if I have evidence, then I can know about historical events by means of reason.

CertainVerdict : Savior, that's where we will disagree. I do not accept the claim that "faith is believing without actually seeing or being able to see or touch."

CertainVerdict : Savior, that is not a definition of faith which I accept.

 

Indeed, if that is the preferred definition of 'faith', it leaves out entirely the question of whether that which is believed "on faith" is true or not, an issue which is central to rational epistemology, an issue which Savior nowhere addresses.

 

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : well, Certain..I cannot make you accept, and I do not wish to make you accept that

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : the only one that can make that happen is Jesus

 

So, essentially, he believes that Jesus is capable of mind-control, since "the only that can… make you accept [something, ideational content] is Jesus." Clearly, "Jesus" represents the use of force against the mind.

 

CertainVerdict : Savior, even according to the Bible, that is not what is meant by faith.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : explain that, Certain

CertainVerdict : Savior, look at all the examples of faith given in Heb. 11. They are not examples of believing without seeing, they are examples of action.

 

Let's review just a few of those examples (words underlined are the specific actions in question):

Hebrews 11:4 - "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh."

Hebrews 11:5 - "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

Hebrews 11:7 - "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

Hebrews 11:9 - "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

This one is particularly relevant, for it explicitly states that Abraham, while moving on faith, did not know where he was going. Clearly, faith is not a form of knowledge, but of action in the absence of knowledge.

Hebrews 11:17 - "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac; and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son."

The remaining examples given in Hebrews 11 are similar in that they are all instance of action, not belief. Oddly, Christians routinely lose sight of this distinction, and prefer to think of faith as if it were some kind of means of securing knowledge or validating belief. Well, when they act on this assumption, perhaps they're acting on faith?

 

CertainVerdict : Savior, faith is an act of will.

CertainVerdict : Savior, it may involve belief, but it can also involve lack of belief.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : but where does that will come from, Certain?

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : from within us???? We don't have that will

CertainVerdict : Savior, as one priest explained it: faith is acting *as if* something were true, even though you do not believe it; he might not always believe, but he could always have faith (i.e., he could always choose to act as if it were true).

CertainVerdict : Savior, the will is an attribute of one's consciousness.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : well, that's where we disagree again, Certain

 

Savior does not agree that one's will is an attribute of his consciousness? Of what, then, is it an attribute? Perhaps he thinks that a will is a self-sufficient entity, having nothing to do with consciousness? He says he disagrees, but does not explain why, nor does he point to any alternative view, let alone attempt to validate an alternative view.

 

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : and we will agree to disagree peacefully

CertainVerdict : Savior, faith is not a means of securing knowledge, as many seem to think, but an attitude, a determination that something must be true, even though there is no evidence.

CertainVerdict : Savior, in other words, faith is a pretense, a form of dishonesty.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : i agree with you on that, except for the part that there is no evidence

 

If Savior agrees with my statement that "faith is not a means of securing knowledge…. but an attitude, a determination that something must be true," then why did he say earlier that "faith is believing without actually seeing, or being able to see or touch"? Indeed, the Bible nowhere defines faith in such terms. When the Bible does offer a definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1 ("Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"), it says nothing about belief. See particularly CJ Holmes' Some Comments on 'Faith', Part II for a fascinating exploration of the biblical meaning of faith.

 

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : the evidence is just as clear as all the "evidence" we have in our history books

CertainVerdict : Savior, the attitude of faith is one which attempts to manufacture evidence to confirm the belief which is supposed to be believed.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : Certain, we could debate this point till the end of time

CertainVerdict : Savior, if I were to take your policy and practice it consistently, I could just as easily use it to rationalize Islam or any other form of mysticism.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : but your belief of faith, and mine are truly different

8Candleholder31 has made CertainVerdict a Spectator.

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : it seems to me that your "faith" is based on man made beliefs and ideas

†ILiveForTheSavior†1 : and my faith comes from Jesus Christ, My Risen Lord and Savior

Candleholder31 : no debates in here plz

8†ILiveForTheSavior†1 has left the conversation.

 

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