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There is a law in the religion of Islam that says if you know something that is not true then you must be unafraid and stand up and state it. The matter will then be discussed and whatever is found to be true will be accepted as being true. And whatever is found to be false will be rejected as being false.

I am invoking this Islamic law to open serious discussions with Muslims.

The Sura 4:82 says. Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein?

There is a challenge in Islam that is open to all Muslims and non-Muslims to find any errors in the Koran. This challenge has existed for 1400 years. If any errors are found to exist in the Koran then this is proof that the Koran did not come from God as Muslims claim.

I quote two Suras that I say are errors found in the Koran. Is there a Muslim here who can dispute these two errors?

Sura 7:124. We Find Pharaoh admonishing his sorcerers because they believed in the superiority of Moses’s Power over theirs. The Pharaoh threatens them with cutting off their hands and feet on opposite sides, and then says they will all die on the cross. But there were no crosses in those days. Crucifixion was first practised by the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians and then borrowed extensively by the Romans close to the Time of Jesus, 1700 years after the Pharaoh.

Here is another Sura that speaks of this same threat upon those Magicians.

[ The Quran ; Sura No. 20 ; Ta’Ha:71 ] “Be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees, so you shall know for certain, which of us can give the more lasting Punishment”

Starjade says: I advise Muslims to be cautious in their replies this is a serious challenge invoked by the Sura 4:82. For if these errors do exist in the Koran then that is proof that the Koran did not come from God.

So is there an Islamic scholar who can give me an explanation as to why these errors exist in the Koran.
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The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Which law is that and from what law book did you find it in?

1) According to B. Metzger & M. D. Coogan in the Oxford Companion To The Bible, crucifixion is nailing or securing a corpse or a live person to a cross or tree.

2) Genesis 40:18-19, Deuteronomy 21:22-23 are examples of the bible giving references to "crucifixion", that precedes the civilizations you mentioned.

See above.

I will take this "under advisement".

1) I have not come across an "Islamic scholar" here.
2) Your question is a complex question suggesting your lack of a background in critical thinking. You are assuming a mistake when you have yet to argue and prove this "assertion", which is buried in premiss of your question.

Best Wishes
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"Were I alive, the earth would tremble," -Amir Timur; inscribed on the great leader's tomb

As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power.
-- Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica

A person needs new experiences. They jar something deep inside, allowing him to grow. Without change, something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken. Dune.

The challenge of 4:82 is invalid, and is itself a very example of the flaws in the quran.

See: The challenge of Surah 4:82?

Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:15 pm Post subject:

Why is it dumb?
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Learning enlightens the mind, because it is to the mind what light is to the eye, enabling it to discover things before hidden.

[quote="Timur Khan"]

Timur Khan you ask: Which law is that and from what law book did you find it in?

Starjade says: It is an Islamic law and I know many Muslims who have heard this law. It was quoted to me by an Islamic expert called Mahi around 1997 and I forgot where he said he got it from. I assumed that all Muslims would be versed in Islamic law and so I thought you would all have heard of it. I shall have to research that but I assure you it is a genuine Islamic law. Mahi does not make mistakes and many Muslims I have met in the past already had heard of that law. Does its common sense bother you. It makes great sense to me. Either way the Sura 4:82 is something you must have heard about and that Sura is also a Law unto itself. Be wary not to take that Sura lightly. If errors are found in the Koran then that proves the Koran did not come from God.

Tell me do Muslims worship the one true living God of Abraham and of Moses and of Starjade. The if you found out that your religion does not worship the one true living God then it would be seen that such behaviour would be blasphemy. Surely no Muslim would knowingly commit Blasphemy. If the Koran has errors in it then that is proof that the Koran did not come from God and that would make the word of Muhammad himself not trustworthy doesn’t it. So for the sake of Islam you are defending more than just Muhammad’s word.

Timur Khan you say:
1) According to B. Metzger & M. D. Coogan in the Oxford Companion To The Bible, crucifixion is nailing or securing a corpse or a live person to a cross or tree.

2) Genesis 40:18-19, Deuteronomy 21:22-23 are examples of the bible giving references to "crucifixion", that precedes the civilizations you mentioned.

Starjade says: Yes by your own admission there are errors in the Koran but you do not yet see that but I shall explain please be patient. I agree that this mention of crucifixion is the error and the mutilations also mentioned of the cutting off of arms and feet. Which as we both know is an Islamic form of execution that is still practised today.

The Sura’s that I have quoted came from another scholar who mentioned the cross indicating he must have a Christian background but he was studying the Koran too deeply for he missed these errors whiles still mentioning the fact that crucifixion was not used till 1700 years after the death of the Pharaoh. The second Sura that I have mentioned Sura No. 20 ; Ta’Ha:71 came from a Muslim who like you also quoted this very same error in other parts of the Koran to make his point. But he was brought up as a Muslim and so he was not aware of this error but just took the Koran at its word with devoted trust.

That was his error. For by his admission and by yours it does mention crucifixion as the punishment and also the cutting off of the hands and feet in the Koran which as we both know is an Islamic way of punishment. But it is not Egyptian and crucifixion did not begin till 1700 years after the death of the Pharaoh.

Timur Khan you say: I will take this "under advisement".

Starjade says: I gave the warning out of kindness and respect for a reasonable religious debate for many have come before you who underestimated me and my Revelations can be devastating. All challengers fell by the wayside and Islam bit the dust.

Timur Khan you say: 1) I have not come across an "Islamic scholar" here.

Starjade says: Well I have read a few posts here and they were interesting enough but might I suggest you go get an Imam online. Trust me for the sake of Islam or at least tell them what has been said.

And I am sure any Muslim here is confident that there are no errors in the Koran and would be willing to discuss these matters especially as a Challenge exists open to all Muslims and non-Muslim to find errors in the Koran which all Muslims believe to be so perfect.

Timur Khan you say:
2) Your question is a complex question suggesting your lack of a background in critical thinking. You are assuming a mistake when you have yet to argue and prove this "assertion", which is buried in premise of your question.

Starjade says: Trust me my thinking is cold and blunt and be sure I am not mistaken. Already by your own word errors are in the Koran, as I shall shortly be explaining. It is clear I can prove these errors do exist in the Koran as I raised these points as my opening argument. But as you are a Muslim you cannot see but I shall enlighten you. I did not want to be so blunt as to point out why these Sura’s are errors in the Koran without first giving a Muslim an opportunity to accept the challenge

Now I shall explain why these errors and some others are proven to exist in the Koran.

You see this Pharaoh did not make any threats of crucifixion to his Magicians. This Pharaoh did not threaten to cut off the hands and feet of the Magicians. It only makes such statements in the Koran. It does not make such statements in the Old Testament as was recorded by those Jews at that Time of this Exodus.

It is well known that the writers of the Koran were trying to re write the Old Testament with their own claims and as pointed out such a death of crucifixion and dismemberment is carried out as an Islamic punishment. It is not Egyptian it is Islamic and was written into the Koran by religiously ignorant Muslims who added their own statements to that story of Moses and the Pharaoh. That is why they spoke of crucifixion and cutting off the hands and feet, which is the Islamic way of killing and mutilating. But it was not the way the Egyptians behaved. And in actual fact the Egyptian Pharaoh had total faith in his Magicians and the Old Testament proves that.

This Pharaoh and Moses began their meeting in Exodus so let me narrate the story briefly at the point where Moses and Aaron went before that Pharaoh. Exodus Ch 7 v 10 and Aaron cast down his Rod and it became a Serpent. Then in V 11 the Pharaoh bid his Magicians to cast down their rods and their rods became Serpents also. But the rod of Aaron ate up the other Serpents starting this mind-blowing story. Pick up a Bible and read Exodus the entire statements are not many pages long but it will verify to you that my words are true showing that serious error that does exist in the Koran is really the whole of the Sura 7:124. and all Sura’s that mention crucifixion and mutilation as in the cutting off of the arms and feet.

Then came the waters of the Nile turning Red as Blood. Exodus 7:22 the Pharaohs Magicians did similar. So the Pharaohs heart was still hardened. Then came the frogs. Ch 8 v 6. In Ch 8 v 6 the Pharaohs Magicians also called up frogs and so the Pharaohs heart was still hardened. The came the Lice Ch 8 v 17 and the Pharaohs Magicians tried to bring on lice Ch 8: v 18 to show they also could do as Moses. But they found they could no reproduce the effect and said unto the Pharaoh Ch 8 v 19. This is the finger of God.

Now that is when the Magicians of the Pharaoh realised that were Powerless against the Power of Moses. Then followed the Plague of flies but no further mention of those Magicians and then grievous Murrain to the cattle of Egypt only. Then from the dust of the furnace there was unleashed upon Egypt, The boils and blains upon man and beast. Ch 9 v 11 and Magicians could not stand against Moses, as they were afflicted.

God threatened Pestilence and sent Hail and Thunder. The God sent Locust then God sent 3 days of weird Darkness, which fell, across the land of Egypt. Then the first born of Egypt of man and beast were killed about midnight. Then the Pharaoh let those people go. Where they went to the Red Sea and God parted the Red sea in two and they walked across on the dry land to the wilderness of Shur and of Sin.

Meanwhile the Pharaoh began regrets and he then chased those people with all his men and chariots and they also went into the parting of the Red sea and the Lord thy God let the walls of the Red sea close and drowned them all including the Pharaoh. ( The Koran I might add has other errors in these matters in that it claims Moses was adopted by the Pharaohs wife not his daughter and that this Pharaoh did not drown) contradicting the recorded statements made by those Jews at that Time.

At no Time in this Tale of that Exodus did the Pharaoh ever threaten his Magicians with death or with crucifixion or with the cutting off of hands and feet. That tale exists only in the Koran that is why the Koran has the error of the Koran Sura 7: 124. Now do you see why I say the Sura 7:124 is an error in the Koran as it is not true as was documented by the Jews of that Time in the Old Testament. And if you doubt me then by all means do go get a Bible and read the Old Testament and you shall see that I speak the truth.

Now how long after the death of that Pharaoh did the Koran get written with that Sura 7:124 well here is that answer also. Muhammad’s followers were said to commit the text of the Koran to memory, and then as instructed by Muhammad, they were then put into writings, Muhammad died in 632 and after the battle of Al Yamamah in 633 Umar inb al Khattab, who later became the second Caliph, said to the first Caliph Abu Bakir, that because of the loss in that battle they were in danger of losing the Koran as it was mainly enshrined in their memories. Aby Bakr recognised the danger and entrusted the task of writing out the Koran to Zayd ibn Thabit, who was the chief scribe that Muhammad had frequently dictated to during his lifetime. A final authorised text was prepared and completed in 651 during the Time of Uthman the third Caliph and this has remained the text of the Koran in use ever since. Still Muslims however claim that the contents of the Koran came from God through this Angel Gabriel.

Yet the Pharaoh did not threaten death on his magicians only Muslims believe that because Zayd ibn Thabit wrote his own Islamic view of execution by crucifixion which was not used as a punishment during the Times of the Pharaoh that is an Islamic form of punishment and crucifixions began some 1700 years after the death of the Pharaoh. Now do you see why I say there are errors in the Koran. These Sura’s are only a few examples.
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The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Before I start, I would like to say that I DON"T TRUST ANY OF THE KAFIRS IN THIS FORUM.

(1) Saleeb is the arabic word for Cross
(2) It comes from the root word 'Solb' which can then mean Hard, (steel is called Solb in arabic now), it can mean from the seed of (the family of),
and it can mean to draw someone like on a rack, such as the ancient torture method of pulling someone on a rack.
3) It never was before, this concept came with christianity, but before it
In this aya it says 'crucify' not 'cause them to die on the cross'.
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Starjade says: Hello there Dr Maybee. yes i did explain that these errors found in the Koran were from another scholar. His use of the word Cross does indicate he was a Christian or brought up in a Christian community hence all Christians associate crucifixion with the Cross Member. But the error is not in the Cross member which was his ways od wording. the error is in the threat of death and of Crucifixion and of dismemberment which are all Islamic forms of capital punishment. But they were not Egyption forms of punishment and crucifixion did not begin or be even called that until 1700 years after the death of the Pharaoh.

The actual statements recorded by the Jews at that Time do not confirm any threat made to the Pharaohs magicians of crucifixion or dismemberment. Crucifixion was only used 1700 years after the death of the Pharaoh and is mentioned only in the Koran and not in the Old Testament which is the source of the exodus story.

So Sura 4:82 says if one error is found in the Koran then this is proof that the Koran did not come from God. You cannot escape the fact i have named more than one irrefutable error here that clearly does exist in the Koran.
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The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Man!! You are ignorant

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Sam Shamouni, Jochen Katz and Ali Sina love to wrestle in mud, wearing nothing but bikinis.

There is no call to be rude and if you are so clever then where is your reply. The Magicians were threatened with having arm and leg amutated and now you suggest if this was said in Arabic it would mean Rack. tsk tsk tsk.... Well here in Britain they used to use the rack and it always seems they speak of those beeing racked having two arms and two legs otherwise what are you going to tie them up with. So dont be silly. It says crucifixion in the Koran. Or did you not read. Why should we openly change the word crucifixion just because you are at a Loss for an answer. Seems you are not as smart as you thought you were and yet here you are being the one casting abuse.

Tell you what if you are stuck for an answer then go ask the Imam. Go tell your Imam what has been said anyway. You will find him stuck for words also. But at least he would be polite.
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The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Does the Quran say that the victims were hammered on an + shaped wood?

Until YOU gvie me evidence that the Quran specifically speaks of the Cross used by Romans, I have no reason to believe you.
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Sam Shamouni, Jochen Katz and Ali Sina love to wrestle in mud, wearing nothing but bikinis.

Hello Doctor.
Hello Starjade.

No need to go to a scholar.
No need to get hot under the collar.

Just take a look and, perhaps you will see
If you search in your Bible the words 'on a tree'

You can try for the match at the BLB
Or view the results that my search gave me

Note the first seven, the matches exact
And read how they make crucifiction a fact

That, taken with Jesus, indeed shows it matches
Yet back to the Dream it somehow attaches

Perhaps you would care to peruse what I ask
To answer the questions is your next simple task.

a) How is 'on a tree' compared to what happened to Jesus in Acts and Galatians?

b) When was the law given to take a person down from 'on a tree' before nightfall in the Old Testament? (you'll have to check the verse after the one quoted second [in Deuteronomy] for the answer)

c) How does 'on a tree' relate to the dream that Joseph interpreted, and how closely does that relate to the Qur'anic account?

d) What did Joshua do to the King of Ai?

When you answer these questions to the best of your abilities, I think you will basically wish ... well, never mind.

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Verily, I have turned my face towards Him Who has created the heavens and the earth 'hanifa', and I am not of the idolator.

The subject of crucifixion in ancient Egypt has been covered thoroughly at the following link:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/crucify.html
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La ilaha illah-l-Lahu wa la na'bdu illa lyyah, mukhlasina la-hudeena wa law kariha-l-kafirun.
There are no gods besides Allah and we worship none but him with sincere devotion, even though the kafir dislike it.

Starjade says: You know as well as I know and also Timur knows that it mentions Crucifixion in the Koran which only began as punishment 1700 years after the death of the Pharaoh. Furthermore the Koran says the Magicians were threatened with crucifixion and dismemberment. This is an Islamic form of punishement that is not practised by the Egyptions.

In the Old Testament which was recorded by those Jews at that Time the Magiucaians were not threatened in such a way. So stop trying to excuse this matter away as Crucifixion and dismemberment and that threat does exist in the Koran but not in the Old Testament. So when you speak of not believing then it is the Koran you are ignoring not my words for I am only pointing out these errors that are found in the Koran.

Now so far you have made the excuse that crucifixion must be Arabic for the Rack and you are going to have to do a lot better with your excuses for so far you are ignoring the threats the Koran says the Magicians were under did not exist as is still recorded by the Old Testament the words of which i have already shown. It is a fact that Crucifixion did not exist as punishment during the Times of the Pharaoh that only began 1700 years after the Pharaoh had died. The dismemberment of cutting of limbs on opposite sides is Islamic punishment still practised today and it is no coincedence that the Koran was written by a Muslim who re wrote the statements of the Old Testaments with his own words and Islamic views.

It seems to me that you are trying to bury your head in the sand instead of facing this matter like a man. But the error still exists even without the cross statement so you are fresh out of excuses.
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The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Sura 7:124. We Find Pharaoh admonishing his sorcerers because they believed in the superiority of Moses’s Power over theirs. The Pharaoh threatens them with cutting off their hands and feet on opposite sides, and then says they will all be Crucified Crucifixion was first practised by the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians and then borrowed extensively by the Romans close to the Time of Jesus, 1700 years after the Pharaoh.

Sura 7:124.
I will certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, then I will crucify you all together.

Said he: You believe in him before I gave you permission; most surely he is the chief of you who taught you magic; so you shall know: certainly I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides and certainly I will crucify you all Sura 26:49.

In the story of Joseph about 400 years earlier the Koran speaks of another passage on crucifixion. Sura 12:41.
O my two mates of the prison! As for one of you he shall give his lord to drink wine; and as for the other, he shall be crucified, so that the birds shall eat from his head, the matter is decreed concerning which you enquired.

There is no record of the Egyptians using crucifixion during the Times of Moses. The threats of crucifixion and dismemberment are historically inaccurate. So give an account if you can as to why these errors exist in the Koran. And be aware that I have already given the true account as to why those errors exist in the Koran.

Sura 4:82. Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein.

The Challenge of this Sura 4:82 that is open to all Muslims and Non-Muslims is to find just one error in the Koran. In the finding of just one error in the Koran then this is proof that the Koran did not come from God and that Dr Maybe is the Islamic point of view. It is clear that I am not a Novice. So weak excuses are not going to change the truth of the word. And burying your head in the sand will not make these matters go away. I suggest that you seek advice from your Imam and invite him online to give an account of these errors that clearly do exist in the Koran. Do that because I have just proven to you using the words of the Koran that the Koran did not come from God and I have over 500 more errors found in the Koran to go that you also will be unable to dispute.

The Islamic law I have quoted at the beginning of this thread says whatever is found to be true will be accepted as being true and whatever is found to be false must be rejected as being false. This law then forces Muslims to reject the Koran and convert. So these errors found in the Koran are a very serious matter.
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The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Starjade says: Well thankyou for that link Bahagia. It does confirm the Koran speaks of Crucifixion of which Dr Maybe is in denial. The Old Testament confirms that no threats were made to the Magicians of the Pharaoh who had total confidence in them.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Starjade says: Well hello there hanifan, that was a good poem.

No need to go to a scholar.
No need to get hot under the collar.
Just take a look and, perhaps you will see
If you search in your Bible the words 'on a tree'

Starjade says: It is a curious thing you mentioning a tree. There are two Christian Bibles. One says that Jesus died on a Cross which is clearly Roman. And the other says the Christ died on a Tree. That was clearly Jewish origin. Not of the Roman Christians.

You can try for the match at the BLB
Or view the results that my search gave me
Note the first seven, the matches exact
And read how they make crucifiction a fact
That, taken with Jesus, indeed shows it matches
Yet back to the Dream it somehow attaches
Perhaps you would care to peruse what I ask
To answer the questions is your next simple task.

Starjade says: Crucifixion was abolished due to the Christian persecutions and what was claimed to have happened to Jesus.

hanifan you ask:
a) How is 'on a tree' compared to what happened to Jesus in Acts and Galatians?

Starjade says: without even needing to look in any Bible I can say that only the Christ died upon a Tree and the Christ was not Jesus. The Christ is the very fruit that grew upon the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. It grew at the base of the tree and was and is a Mushroom, a Sacred key to Heaven and Hell.

This Mushroom was unique in that it was born without seed and could die in a night but if you wait around after 3 days it would resurrect itself. This specific Mushroom is the Amanita Muscaria a Red and White Fly Agaric Mushroom. That is how it could die upon a tree. This is how those stories of the birth the death and then the resurrection come to be understood properly when you know that knowledge. But that is another matter and this thread is about the Sura 4:82 and crucifixion.

hanifan you ask:
b) When was the law given to take a person down from 'on a tree' before nightfall in the Old Testament? (you'll have to check the verse after the one quoted second [in Deuteronomy] for the answer)

Starjade says: It is the wise to take the Christ Mushroom down from the Tree before it rots. The fruit is better when tasted fresh.

hanifan you ask:
c) How does 'on a tree' relate to the dream that Joseph interpreted, and how closely does that relate to the Qur'anic account?

Starjade says: I am in no doubt that Joseph would have eaten the Mushroom and its transcendental properties would have given him visions. But the Koran does not quote accurately the Old or New testament and it is certainly not aware of the Sacred Keys or the text hidden within the words of the Old and New Testaments.

hanifan you ask:
d) What did Joshua do to the King of Ai?

Starjade says: I don’t recall. Why not tell us. But using Old Testament words as they will be more accurate.

hanifan you ask: When you answer these questions to the best of your abilities, I think you will basically wish ... well, never mind.

Starjade says: I have very unusual abilities and prefer to be more constructive than to leave things to hopeful wishes.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

actually, trying to force the Qur'an into a lie just doen't work. Would you care to prove crucifixion didn't exist before the Romans invented it?

Irrefutable proof please.

Otherwise just follow the link provide here, which short-cuts being led by the nose to do your own research.
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Verily, I have turned my face towards Him Who has created the heavens and the earth 'hanifa', and I am not of the idolators.