Take the story below as an excellent example of why elders are NEVER welcome at Shrine events. Once, we made exceptions, but no more ... (Note to the reader: The names have almost all been changed in this account. ("The Agora" was a Pagan networking site which ceased to be updated in late 2000, largely in response to this incident and the uninspiring community response it saw, with most of the community rallying around the offending parties based on nothing more than their clout in that community, shunning the victims of their efforts at backstabbing and willfully turning a deaf ear when said victims tried to tell their side of the story).

We should add that even without involvement by the elders, many of the members of the community have still managed to be a real special joy (see: Saying Goodbye: Our Publisher Meets the Acolytes).

One of the unusual, though not unique, features of the Shrine, as it seeks to establish itself, is the degree to which it limits contact with the Wiccan and magical "community". Some will ask why we do that.

As a matter of fact, the Shrine's initial position was almost exactly the opposite, one of the members having established the old Agora pagan listings site, almost all of whose listings ended up being Wiccan ones. There was a heavy degree of overlap in membership with the Council for Pagan Liberty and Interfaith Cooperation, a group whose primary purpose was one of promoting ties within the whole Pagan community. Overlapping membership between the Shrine and other Pagan groups was encouraged in the interest of promoting the cohersion of the community, and Wiccan groups were not excluded. In fact, we were even willing to schedule our non-festival observance meetings on the halfmoons, in order to minimize conflicts for Wiccan members, posting a schedule of these on the Agora's Wiccan-focused calendar page. Also, the Council was trying to start a newsletter for Reader Circuit, (1) yes, Wiccan groups included.

This all came to an end in May of 2000, a few months after the posting of an unfavorable review of a group which had taken to charging would-be initiates hundreds of dollars in instructional fees, contrary to what many Wiccans will claim is "basic craft law". Once again, unbeknownst to us, the leadership of that group was part of the circle of acquiantences that most of the people mentioned in this article ran in. Sally and her friend Harriet, of the Temple of Prima Nocturne, had signed up for the Council. They had, by their own earlier acknowledgement, visited the Agora, and read the understandings expected of those who took part in the Council, and the explanation of what the Council was, and did. Before they signed up, I reminded them of all of this, especially including the understandings. They gave their word of honor to abide by those understandings. Among those understandings, right off the listing for the Council over at the Witches' Voice, was this:

" Our doors are wide open. But, as the price of admission, you do have to cast aside politics. That doesn't mean that you can't tell your side of a story. What it does mean is that you can't allow your personal feelings dictate what it is that the reader will have a chance to know about. Further, you must refrain from attempting to prevail in intracommunity disputes, by keeping one's opponents from being heard. "

These people went on to blatantly violate their word and express great amusement over the very notion that somebody might hold them to it. Along the way, they produced what has to be one of the sillier controversies we've had the misfortune to deal with, doing so as as our guests. In fact, they attempted to break up the Council and the Shrine both, and spread disinformation at the expense of the former because I argued against their bizarre position on their non-issue of choice.

As had already been explained at length, the Council was not a coven. There were no dues. There was no initiation, no oaths. It was nothing more than a meeting place for Pagan writers, a place where people could gather, talk about their projects, find people to collaborate with them, solicit support - and the only price of admission was that one had to agree to be civil.

Let's backtrack, a little, to mid-April of 2000.

A proposal had been made in the Council to start a newsletter to replace the then already defunct Metaphysical Gazette. With our newsletter announcement in place, our representative then went to set up a table at HeathenCon on April 30, recruiting for both the Shrine, which he was setting up, and the Council, in which he was a member. The day immediately got off to a bad start. Running late for the event, he hailed a cab whose driver then attempted to kidnap him. Yes, you read that correctly, the experience was just that bizarre. The cab got to a point where the driver should have turned one way, the driver then went another, and refused to turn back or let our representative out, as he took his passenger into a warehouse district. Whether he was acting out of psychosis, a desire to rob somebody where there were no witnesses, or some combination of the two, we never found out. Nor did any of us need to. After a few blocks, a few cars ahead of the cab had stopped, which gave our guy the chance to get out the door, while the driver gunned his engines and tried to drag his passenger along the street as he got out the door. No success there, as our rep cleared the door before the driver got above 5 mph. The driver then pursued our representative, going the wrong way down a one-way street, until our man got to the center and was able to get to a phone.

Not a good way to start one's day at all. Pondering the similarities between hailing a cab and hitchhiking, our representative decided that next time, he would call for a cab. Much shaken, he entered the place where HeathenCon would be held, to be greeted by "Frank" and "Ron" of the "Blessed Village Shrine", which you will he hearing about in a bit. Noticing that he was winded and seemed more than a little upset, they asked him what was wrong. He told them. He later was told that Frank and a few of his friends, who had acted as if they had been my friends up until this point, wandered from booth to booth, "warning" those present to not talk to him. One of those people later mentioned how "Frank" had told her that our rep had claimed that somebody had tried to kidnap him in a, to use her own words, "don't humor him" tone of voice". This was invariably done behind somebody's back, somebody who wouldn't hear about it until some months after the Con. Meanwhile, to our representative's face, "Frank" was 'helpfully' trying to talk him out of pursuing the notion of starting a free and independent Pagan press, using the argument that one had to "control one's press", because otherwise "it could say anything about you it liked". "Yes, Frank, that's kind of the point of having a free press", he started to say, only to be cut off, as Frank went walking off. Frank did not seem pleased, and judging from what we heard about his behavior that day long after the fact, did not seem at have been at all shy about acting on that visible displeasure.

The game had begun.

Keep in mind that we are living in Chicago and random street crime does happen here, disturbingly often, and always has. Frank's attitude had no basis in common sense, but more than a few people were suggestible enough to be taken in by his sick and outrageous efforts to use somebody's recent bad experience as an opportunity to score a few political points for himself at my expense. This wouldn't be the last time that he, or the leadership of "the Blessed Village Shrine" would indulge in this kind of backstabbing.

Our man's next mistake wasn't as dangerous, but the results were still quite annoying. Instead of setting out two sign-up sheets, one for the Shrine and one for the Council, he set out a single combined sign up sheet, asking people to specify what it was that they were asking to join. Most of those signing up would end up either signing up for both, or, confusingly, not specify what they were signing up for. All that we could do was set up a combined mailing list for both, which had the result of getting people onto the Shrine mailing list who wouldn't otherwise have been able to join. Like, for example, the next two people.

Soon he was greeted by the aforementioned Sally, who signed up, and, apparently one of her friends, whose named also appeared on the list (namely, Harriet), Sally having been introduced to our guy by the priestess mentioned in "Breaking Away". What we did not know at the time was that Sally was a personal friend and occasional associate of the "priestess" who had been criticized in the pages of the Agora for having charged prospective members hundreds of dollars for pre-initiation training. Not only did Sally and Harriet get involved, but they tried to take over, seeking to silence editorials that they didn't care for in an almost corporate fashion.

Harriet, Sally's friend, first volunteered herself for the post of editor, an administrative position within the Council. Soon afterwards, she protested what she saw as being the inadequate power of her chosen post. She wanted total control over the newsletter instead of mere influence, as the member of a board on which power would be divided and shared. She then proceeded to engage in what can only be termed hard politicing for the post. She made sure to whip up a certain amount of enthusiasm by bragging at length about her 50 years of professional editorial experience. Then things got strange.

The subject of financing came up. Now, while it is true that each project would run autonomously at the Council once it was manned and going, it was equally true that we weren't about to ask people to agree to an arrangement under which they'd have no say in how their own money was to be spent (ie. "taxation without representation"). So, raising the funds for a project would have been the responsibility of the project staff. If they wanted funds from their fellow council members, they would have had to make a presentation and a sales pitch, and be persuasive.

It would not have been an entitlement to hear the word "yes". Rather, it would be up to the individual member to decide how much she wished to give, or if she wished to give at all. Naturally, the staff would be perfectly free to seek outside funding or to fund a project themselves. This would serve to discourage the Council, at some point in the hypothetical future, from using the dependent status of a project staff in order to circumvent the staff's autonomy.

The friend, Harriet, immediately sent the following snotty letter, in which she told us that her price was $40/hour, and indicated that SHE wasn't going to be putting up any funds. (She hadn't been asked to. In fact, she had been offered funds, out of concern for her financial situation). Apparently, she had expected automatic funding. Somebody who had actually held a professional position before retirement, as she claimed to, should have known better than to expect such an unheard of concession.

Showing tremendous courage in the face of the facts, she then insisted that she hadn't signed anything and demanded that we not count her as a member of the Council (ie. the very organization she was asking for a $40/hour position in). In reality, her e-mail address and signiature were placed on a list on our table, sitting between a sign saying "Shrine of the Sleeping Gods" and another saying "Council for Pagan Liberty and Interfaith Cooperation". What somebody was signing up for could not have been a great mystery, at the time.

We were all too glad to take the friend at her literal word and say goodbye. Soon afterwards, Antistoicus received a letter from Harriet explaining that she didn't really wish to withdraw her application to be the editor, she simply didn't like the idea of being responsible for the funding.

So, what we saw was a corporate style negotiating tactic, carried out in an unusually clumsy fashion. Small problem, though. The Council was not a corporation, it was a religious service organization, and character is everything in such a setting. Manipulative power plays are not acceptable. Consequently, when Harriet asked to be reinstated, her request was refused with ample cause. As a result, she was no longer eligible to be editor of this small newsletter that had been under consideration.

Meanwhile, our "priestess" from Prima Nocturne was being a special joy in her own right.

On our private mailing list, she took to the habit of asking questions that had already been answered, repeatedly. In fact, these were frequently questions that had already been answered, both in person and on the Council's home page, whose url had been given to everyone on the list at the Con. Very often, they would be questions that had already been answered in the course of answering Sally's own questions. In the interests of maintaining readability, Antistoicus asked her to stop doing that. Counterarguments are welcome, repetition is not.

One of her "issues" was the fact that this "rag" (our newsletter), as she was to term it on WebForum, would be totally under the control of the Council, without outsiders being given any say in its operation. Well, excuse us, but since when do people who don't belong to an organization, get a vote in how one of its projects is going to be run? But, before this could even be asked, she had an answer. A lot of people in the community were solitaries and didn't want to belong to any organization.

Let us note, that, rather conveniently, had this proposed change in policy been adopted, Harriet (her friend and personal connection) would, once again, be eligible to be the editor. She then made a crude and transparent attempt to disguise this push for her friend's political advantage as an attempt to increase community involvement. (2)

To this Antistoicus pointed out that he had already repeatedly said that we would welcome article submissions from outside our group. Indeed, we have advertised as much, quite aggressively, advertising our presence and inviting people to join (or, at least, send submissions), in the Reader, New City, on every Chicago area Pagan mailing list we could find, in flyers left in a multitude of bookstores, on hand-lettered posters left up in coffeshops ... As somebody said on chi-heathen before he was censored, not only were we signing people up at HeathenCon, one of us was practically tackling them in the aisle and dragging them back to our table. So, what is it that we were supposed to do to include people, that we didn't?

He then pointed out, if somebody's complaint was that he wanted to take part in the running of the newsletter, but didn't want to belong to an organization, he'd be asking for the impossible, because the staff would, by definition, be an organization. He reminded her (and everyone else) that the Council didn't collect dues, or ask anyone to swear allegiance to anything. Like he said, it was not a coven. It was a very loose and informal writers' group. So, wouldn't it be a little foolhardy (and maybe a little irresponsible) of the Council to turn over control of its newsletter to people who had not spent time working with it, and had not given its members the chance to get to know them, first?

Plus, what was the issue, anyway? It's not like membership in the Council required that one give up membership in anything else. So, we'd have lost a few of the more radically isolationist candidates? We'd have plenty left. If, the intention of the newsletter was to build community, would one really want radical isolationists on the editorial board, anyway? They would not believe in their own project objective.

Let us repeat that Sally was the high priestess, the spiritual leader of the Temple of Prima Nocturne? So, what would one expect out of a spiritual leader? How about a little maturity, to start?

Sally sent Antistoicus an irate and abusive letter in response to calm reason, in which she tried to break up the Council by asking everyone to leave it and join with her, and the former Metaphysical Gazette staff, in creating a new newsletter. Apparently she had forgotten that her membership on the list was still suspended, pending her agreement to abide by the no-repetitive question rule mentioned. Naturally, Antistoicus responded to this.

(Note : these letters were cc-ed to the staff of the Blessed Village Shrine, who Sally wished to recruit for her effort. If you are especially curious about what their response was, click here to read about that).

Apparently, not satisfied with this, our self-styled spiritual leader than proceeded to badmouth us over at WebForum. This, apparently, she felt was an appropriate response to ... we almost said, not getting what she wanted. But, it wasn't even that, because policy wasn't set, yet, it was still being discussed. No, she felt that attacking a group that she had agreed to become a part of, in public, was an appropriate response to the fact that a weak point of hers encountered a stronger counterargument. "Give me what I want without any backtalk, or I'll take my marbles and go home, and I'll break yours' before I leave". Is this the mentality of a spiritual leader or a spoiled child?

Let us note, that once again, not only did she violate her pledge to refrain from politicing, but stomped it into the dust. This effort was rounded out when a third member of their group tried manipulation, in one of the crudest attempts at spin doctoring we've ever seen, where even cruder intimidation had failed. These people never give up. Who has time for this?

So, what can we say, but what a pleasure it was to have let this group through our door. From the moment they stepped in, they did absolutely nothing but try to disrupt and destroy our young group, and the community outreach effort (The Council) it was participating in, when they weren't making clumsy attempts to take control of it. If one of us was (and is) the host for this little gathering of ours, then they, indeed, were memorably bad guests.

Let us note, that Sally also worked to deny the community a newsletter, after it had gone half of a year without one, clearly working to undermine the community that she pretends to be a leader in, because a petty desire for personal gain and power was denied. What an interesting statement on the values of an alleged spiritual leader.

One might reply, by asking, "well, aren't these just the values of two women, and not a community". Take a look at the Blessed Village's response, to say nothing of their own behavior. They would seem, by the response seen, to be values that a good chunk of the Blessed Village would endorse. Their response set the tone for what followed, in which we got to watch people attempt some of the most bizarre logical contortions we've ever seen, as they played "lawyer" on Sally's behalf. Not a single member of the Chicago Wiccan community expressed any objection whatsoever to what Sally and her acolytes did for months afterward. Even a year later, there were only two who protested, in a community whose membership numbered in the hundreds, if not thousands. Given this, it is entirely proper for us to let Sally speak for that community, as the community, through its actions, has clearly decided to do so, itself.

Here is one way of looking at the situation, philosophically. We worked hard to gather together the staff for a newsletter for the community and create a peaceful meeting place for it. The Wiccan community endorsed an effort to destroy both. One does not destroy that which one wishes to possess. Hence, the Wiccan community has clearly indicated that it does not wish these things for itself, and we should respect that lack of desire. Hence, should we establish any future newsletter or meeting place, the Wiccan community will, by and large, be excluded from it. Should this not be what it wished, how foolish of it to have asked for this through its actions. However, as adults, we must accept responsibility for our own folly, so the decision stands.

We had hoped that perhaps there might have been a few in that community who didn't think like Sally and Frank. Speaking on an emotional level, obviously we would not have wished to exclude friends from our midst, merely because they\ shared something in common with those who have earned our disgust. On the philosophical level discussed above, those who would not endorse Sally's actions would not have not made the effective request described above, and so the above argument would not have not applied to them.

Consequently, we decided that our doors would be open to those who wish to step through them, but only briefly. A common pattern of behavior we had witnessed had been to side with the belligerent in their absurd complaints until they became old news, and then, to come back years later with a sheepish smile, and the "recognition" that those wrongly attacked, had been in the right, all along. But this time, the community went too far, or at least the portion we have heard from so far did. There could be no question of accepting next year's belated apology, or support. The Wiccan community had already repeatedly stated its support for the autonomy of a group. So the question was, was the community as good as its word?

The answer, pretty clearly, seemed to have been "no".

This is not a matter of holding a grudge. This is a matter of not being gullible. Our actions serve to define us. An easily given apology, granted long after the fact, tells us little about the character of one who could easily give it insincerely. Where there is no real change of heart, forgiveness is folly, not kindness. If we shun the company of those others would consider to be our fellows, there may be a good reason why.

Note, added June 18, 2002 : The apology never did come, and given the clear-cut nature of the situation, two years should have been more than long enough. An apology offered today would not be accepted. We are done with this community, "The Reader Circuit" as it is called, and with Wiccans in general.

Moving along, now ....

(1) The "Reader Circuit" is the general Pagan community we speak of in this article, so named in some circles because of the habit of some of its elders of anouncing their events in "announcements" section of the Chicago Reader. The Chicago Reader is a free "alternative" weekly newspaper best known for its adult services ads, and not surprisingly, ads placed in it often reach a rather marginal crowd.

Click here to return to where you were.

(2) Let us note that Sally's "points" had already been answered, in detail, in an earlier answer to one of her own questions! In other words, Sally, here, is playing the old Usenet game of asking questions which, if endlessly answered, would force one's opponenent to repeat himself ad nauseum. If one's opponent is careless enough to play along, one then complains to his exasperated audience about how boring his posts are to read.

If he doesn't play along, one then tells everybody that this proves that he has no answer to one's question, and counts on the short attention span (and memory) that one hopes the audience will have. True to form, we will get to see Sally complain about the length of the answers given. Let's call this game "bait and gripe". Broad questions, by their very nature, will have lengthy answers.

It's kind of slimy, and more than a little manipulative, to complain about a characteristic of an answer, when the character of the questions one has freely chosen to ask makes that characteristic unavoidable.

Let's return.