decorating_is_my_game (15 ) View Listings | Report Dec-28-05 23:46 PST 1 of

take the refund and shop for it elsewhere.

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-28-05 23:58 PST 2 of

You don't get it. These are chronic criminal offenders. They destroy the trust of the buying public and make it impossible for honest sellers to sell the same items. Whole categories are completely rotted out by these frauds.

I don't want a refund. I want what was advertised or I want these scammers busted.

decorating_is_my_game (15 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 00:05 PST 3 of

file the reports. but you can't get what they don't have.

many come here begging for refunds. they are handing you yours on a silver platter. take it and run with it.

BTW, i DO get it. that's why i am on this board.

orange_cape_hides_me (Private ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 00:12 PST 4 of

Deco is right - the best you can hope for is to get a refund. If they have been scamming others, then you are lucky to get that.

Then get busy filing reports - you can file the INAD complaint with Ebay, and a non performing seller report (they didn't deliver what was promised).

Your best bet may be filing a complaint with the State Attorney General's office in the state where the seller is located. If they are pervasive at this as you claim, surely they must have information and other complaints on file about these sellers.

Further you can report the seller to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. It is a felony to sell some Native American artifacts, and further there are strict laws concerning WHO may sell them.

You can google the Bureau and contact them through their website.

Best of luck,

Caped~

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 00:18 PST 5 of

I want eBay to shut them down. And I think eBay IS responsible for fraud, especially when it has been reported to them over and over. "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

I have $30 into the deal. It's not the money. It's a test of eBay integrity. I'm tired of paying fees and not selling when shill-driven liars are taking my buyers. Get it?

decorating_is_my_game (15 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 00:22 PST 6 of

nbs,

any chance you are selling like items? i wonder because of this statement: "I'm tired of paying fees and not selling when shill-driven liars are taking my buyers."

caped,

thank you!

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 00:23 PST 7 of

Hi Caped: I filed the eBay reports. See above. Have you read eBay's policies that go with these reports? I want eBay to shut down these thieves. Or is eBay just a bunch of hypocrites? See my post in the "collectibles" forum.

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 00:30 PST 8 of

Caped: I don't sell what these scammers describe. I bought items from them, but they didn't send what they described. I filed the reports. They offer refunds, thinking I'll go away. I don't want refunds. I want what was described or I want eBay to exterminate them. Ebay is doing nothing with the reports I filed.

orange_cape_hides_me (Private ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 00:36 PST 9 of

NBS - I understand your frustration and disappointment. However Ebay doesn't see the items listed, they don't authenticate them. They cannot take action until and unless enough reports are submitted.

Perhaps 3 other people have filed before you and your report is the final one. We just don't know because Ebay doesn't disclose what action they do take.

They may have previously sanctioned or warned this Seller, again we don't know.

So the best we can advise is to report them to Ebay. If enough buyers do that, they will be shut down.

Also because there are laws governing the sale of these items, you have law enforcement and consumer protection sites you can file with. Again, enough reports, they will investigate. If they prosecute and Ebay is notified, you can bet the account will be shut down.

If there is an egregious policy violation that is readily easy for Ebay to discern, you can write to [email protected]. Explain to him exactly what policies are being broken and how he can confirm this. He has been very responsive to problems that have been spoken of on these boards. It's worth a try - but remember you get further with honey than vinegar and he's one of the good guys.

Yes, I'm familiar with the policies. I'm also familiar with Ebay's VENUE status which insulates them from claims that they have an interest in any transaction. And as of now, their VENUE status means that they assume no liability for any listings on their site.

The best way to protect yourself in the future is to research the seller thoroughly. Read both the feedback left by them and for them. Also you can check off Ebay to see if they have any professional credentials or a market presence. There are many websites devoted to collecting these items - and you can post on those websites and see if anyone can vouch for the seller. Being aware and informed will save you more frustration in the future.

If anyone is bidding on their own auctions, that's correctly called Shilling and it's not only against the Ebay User Agreement, it's against the law. You can report that to Ebay as well, but keep the report simple enough for a sixth grader to read and comprehend.

Best of luck to you, and again the posters on this board can sympathize with you, but other than giving you assistance on where to file, nothing more can be done. Considering the amount of money people lose on this site through fraudulent auctions, consider yourself lucky if indeed you are able to obtain a refund for those auctions.

Respectfully,

Caped~

orange_cape_hides_me (Private ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 00:40 PST 10 of

NPS - we cross posted. I just saw your next post. You don't know that Ebay isn't doing anything - Ebay just wont disclose what action they do take.

You should obtain the refund since it was offered. That doesn't mean you have to "go away". You can report any auction that you see is fraudulent, any bidding activity that violates the User Agreement.

You can also file outside of Ebay, that is your right and may be enough to get this seller's auctions looked at.

Try the Bureau of Indian Affairs, they take a very hard nose approach to people selling items that purportedly are Indian artifacts. And the Bureau has teeth - they can communicate with federal investigators that are empowered to take immediate action when these items violate the law.

Best of luck to you, hope this has helped some.

Caped~

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 00:54 PST 11 of

Look! These con artists have been reported dozens of times for numerous unenforced eBay policy violations. The Nat Am policy thing is a joke! eBay is simply not interested in cleaning up the fraud. I'm not frustrated. I'm out to get eBay to do something positive for a change. As for eBay "venue" immunity, that's all crap. Just because eBay says they're immune, doesn't make it real. If you know someone is committing a crime and if you can do something about it, you're not immune. Ebay has received hundreds of complaints about these thieves (from me alone) for numerous violations. They have done nothing so far. Now I have actual physical proof of the fraud. Is eBay going to ignore this?

There must be thousands or millions of buyers in this exact situation. Where's the organization filing the class action suit?

ilovetosellwidgets (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 01:02 PST 12 of

nbspolice, I understand your fraustration with this seller and wanting them kicked off. What will do that is the reports. Not just one will get them booted off there has to be multiple complaints. Negative feedback does not count the others have to report.

Another thing I want to mention that I understand you want the item you won but if they sent a fake to begin with what makes you think that the second time you'd receive an original? I think you should take your money and file the reports just as everyone has said.

These con artists have been reported dozens of times for numerous unenforced eBay policy violations

How do you know this?

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 01:11 PST 13 of

How do I know this? I've been reporting these people for more than two years for the same infractions and ripoffs. So have a lot of my colleagues at the nationalbeadsociety [dot] org forum. Check it out. And the people at the AACA (see the unenforced Nat Am policy for a link) are agitating over the fake and misrepped lithics that these same scammers pass. We're not talking isolated incidents.

eBay needs to hire some authenticators and drop the "safe and fun" hypocrisy. I can give you long lists of current fraud auctions and sellers. It's time to shut them down and keep them shut down. I'm not some novice.

couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 01:20 PST 14 of

Just because eBay says they're immune, doesn't make it real.

Congress and several courts have now said so too. I suspect that eventually eBay will lose this protection one way or the other, but until then, victims are on their own. If you want these people "busted", file lawsuits and contact authorities in their state.

ilovetosellwidgets (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 01:32 PST 15 of

How do I know this? I've been reporting these people for more than two years for the same infractions and ripoffs

How does Ebay know that you are telling the truth with the reports that you are reporting? Ebay, needs reports from more than one buyer that purchased and can proof the accusations that you are saying. Once does nothing (even if you reported it over and over you count as one). Others have to also report or nothing will be done.

Also, if you have been reporting them for 2 years why did you purchase from them?

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 01:36 PST 16 of

Congress and several courts have now said so too. I suspect that eventually eBay will lose this protection one way or the other, but until then, victims are on their own. If you want these people "busted", file lawsuits and contact authorities in their state.

Right! I only rent the house to the crack dealers, I don't actually sell crack.

Please be so kind as to point me towards the Congressional reports and court decisions.

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 01:46 PST 17 of

How does Ebay know that you are telling the truth with the reports that you are reporting? Ebay, needs reports from more than one buyer that purchased and can proof the accusations that you are saying. Once does nothing (even if you reported it over and over you count as one). Others have to also report or nothing will be done.

These people have been reported numerous times by numerous people for a long time. All Ebay has to do is get serious and look into these matters -- try hiring somebody instead of eating all their greedy gains.

I bought the stuff so I can get them for mail fraud, so I can take them to court and attach eBay to the lawsuit. I'm bored and I'm tired of the fraud and I'm tired of the thieves plugging up the categories with their lies. Do you want proof? No trouble! I can prove eBay condones fraud so as to profit from the fees paid by the crack dealers in the their crack house!

couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 01:51 PST 18 of

Please be so kind as to point me towards the Congressional reports and court decisions.

This was the major court decision:

http://www.metnews.com/articles/ebay062702.htm

A key quote:

"The justice went on to say that any action against eBay is preempted by Sec. 230 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996, which says that “[n]o provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.� "

ilovetosellwidgets (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 01:52 PST 19 of

These people have been reported numerous times by numerous people for a long time. All Ebay has to do is get serious and look into these matters -- try hiring somebody instead of eating all their greedy gains.

Reported by you because you were the buyer. Other people can report that the item is not real. I can without purchasing but it will not hold up with Ebay.

I bought the stuff so I can get them for mail fraud, so I can take them to court and attach eBay to the lawsuit

Then why are you so adamant about receiving the right item? Why not just sue the sellers instead of griping about getting the item? Don't just talk about it, do it.

I can prove eBay condones fraud so as to profit from the fees paid by the crack dealers in the their crack house!

That statement is libelous. You do not know that these people are crack deals nor do you know if they live in a crack house.

orange_cape_hides_me (Private ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 02:08 PST 20 of

Ilove - that was an analogy that the OP was using, he didn't mean it literally.

We feel for you - and this is not the only area where there are fraud problems. Check out the coins board - they could scream until they are blue in their face.

And stamps, and .. etc.

We are the choir here, however we also know the limitations at present. It may be that LV is the one to crack this open for everyone - Ebay's venue status is being challenged at every turn.

For now, you'll see more responsiveness by enlisting the Bureau and see if they are concerned. Also filing with State Attorney Generals.

Lastly, if there is a large group of collectors ... power to the masses. Take it to the press. Nothing like bad press to make eBay re-examine a situation.

That's the best we can do for you. Believe me, we deal with this daily. We're not condoning it, we know the problems on the site. We also are realistic about Ebay responds to the problems, and what they rely on for their authority to do nothing.

Caped~

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 02:10 PST 21 of

You obviously haven't read the whole discussion.

Otherwise, the sellers deserve a chance to deliver imaginary items and I'm waiting for eBay to do nothing. They have the reports and dozens of complaints by dozens of "members" against dozens of sellers and hundreds of auctions.

If eBay knows the items are fraudulent and is in a position to do something about it (yes to both with due diligence), then they're not immune. This isn't baseball memorabilia.

The landlord who rents to crack dealers will lose his property whether or not he even knows about the crack dealing. Libelous? Who are you? Some eBay apologist?

orange_cape_hides_me (Private ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 02:17 PST 22 of

No, there are not an apologist. They are a regular board poster that understands your frustration and spends a great deal of time trying to educate people on Ebay on how to avoid fraud.

We're all board posters that know about the problems, believe me, WE KNOW.

However unless there is court action, or you get some legislators interested in looking at this problem, Ebay will do nothing.

Interestingly Meg is speaking to members of the Senate in a few days in Washington DC who want to speak with her about fraud. Google it - it may be available out there on the web.

Send an email to the Senators that are meeting with her- suggest questions they should pose. You might get some interest in this that way.

Caped~

orange_cape_hides_me (Private ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 02:19 PST 23 of

Excuse my typos, it's late and I'm turning in. Best of luck NBS. Remember, this is the Trust & Safety board and the posters here really do help a lot of people. We are more attuned to the problems on Ebay than most other Ebayers.

But this area of problems is more than we can do anything about, other than sympathize. We do wish you the best in cleaning up that area of Ebay. It will take someone committed like you to make a change, I'm sure of it.

Caped~

dedeyomo (78 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 02:23 PST 24 of

Right on, NBSPOLICE! I'm right behind you! You don't suppose your handle, NBSPolice, has anything to do with the nationalbeadsociety, do you? I think you're the "Angela" on the forum there. Try nationalbeadsociety org for "published" notices on bead auction frauds.

It's time eBay gets serious. Does anyone else have published accounts of eBay fraud or failed lawsuits?

threegigs (126 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 04:13 PST 25 of

nbspolice,

By the "police" part of your name, you should know very well that FRAUD is a criminal act.

If you provide eBay with your court proceedings proving fraud..

Oh, wait... you did take them to court, right? You did prove them guilty, right?

I want what was described

You have a very valid, legally enforceable contract. Call a lawyer and go about getting the item your contract describes. eBay is NOT the judicial system, and you are making the n00b mistake of thinking that it is.

If eBay knows the items are fraudulent So, like I said above, take the seller to court, and then give eBay the documentation and they'll be shut down.

It's really very, very simple. The United States constitution takes precedence over eBay policy, and the sellers are innocent until proven guilty.

arnoldtrading (21 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 05:43 PST 26 of

The reality is that you may have filed with PayPal and if they refund, I am not even sure they notify eBay of any problem since the situation has been resolved. In effect, if you got a refund, eBay may turn a blind eye.

Did you make reports to eBay outside of the PayPal dispute?

imcollectordan (Private ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 06:15 PST 27 of

Surely if you buy goods knowing that what you are going to get is NOT what is described, do you have any recourse at all ?

If I buy stamps knowing that they are fakes, then I go crying to someone saying "hey, I was sent fakes - I want the seller shut down !!", aren't they just going to laugh in my face ?

The only people who will be remotely likely to get this seller shut down would be the Bureau of Indian Affairs. They would be the only people that Ebay "may" listen to in this matter, not some vigilante buyer ( as that is what you have become by knowingly buying fake items ).

 Dan the stamp man

ilfifi (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 06:17 PST 28 of

OP SAID......I bought the stuff so I can get them for mail fraud, so I can take them to court and attach eBay to the lawsuit.

ATTACK EBAY? Are you kidding? Man you need a hobby!

Of course it is wrong if the seller in question is selling Indian knock-offs but going after them AND EBAY? *vigilante style is wrong*. Ebay has only YOUR word about authenticity which is.... he said, she said.

File the proper reports. It takes time to get them suspended. And it takes time to get ANYONE investigated and procecuted by any authorities. Ebay isn`t going to do it JUST BECAUSE YOU SAID ...DO IT. It took YEARS to get a conviction even for John Gotti so why do you think your investigation and vigilante purchase is going to get the trick done YESTERDAY?

Ranting on this board about how you want delivery of the non-existing authentic item which they NEVER had or ranting that ebay needs to shut down their auctions or ranting that you want to attack ebay will get you NOWHERE. You have the option...shop in person at a brick and mortar store and stay off internet auctions.

Before you say anything...this is my posting ID and I have over 1,500 feedbacks.

Good luck.

salez4u (147 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 06:36 PST 29 of

Report the herehttp://www.iacc.org/Sleuth.html

ilfifi (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 06:36 PST 30 of

ATTACH EBAY to the lawsuit....Now I see what you mean. Thought you had a typo and meant attack.

Still makes no sense to go after ebay. Ebay is not responsible in your case of INTENTIONALLY buying Indian knock-offs with the intent to go to court. Ebay is not responsible in authenticating items listed by sellers. Read their disclaimers.

File the correct reports and drop the ranting. When numerous reports come in ...ebay will suspend.

couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 09:28 PST 31 of

If eBay knows the items are fraudulent and is in a position to do something about it (yes to both with due diligence), then they're not immune. This isn't baseball memorabilia.

eBay's position is that it DOESN'T know specifically what items are fraudulent, since they do not have access to the goods. And baseball memorabilia isn't the issue; other factions have attempted similar suits and failed - although I suspect most are dissuaded by lawyers before they ever get that far.

The immunity comes from the "safe harbor" provision of the Communications Decency Act, which essentially holds internet service providers blameless for information posted by others. This is totally different from laws regarding newspaper and other media advertising, and certainly from you your crackhouse example.

Until this provision is either struck down by courts (as other provisions in the Act already have) or repealed by congress, yes, eBay is immune. Since courts have already ruled in eBay's (and other Internet providers') favor, it's unlikely we'll see an about-face there. My guess is that eventually congress will be looking for some way to amend the Act to provide better consumer protection. The other possibility is if some hotshot Attorney General manages to twist eBay's arm into some sort of deal, as NY's Eliot Spitzer has done to payPal and credit card issuers. Frankly, I'm not sure eBay or other online auction sites could survive much of a change.

So, if you want to see change, stomping your feet at ebay or adding them to a lawsuit is unlikely to get you anywhere. Take the matter up with your state's AG, the FTC and your congressional representatives, where change will most likely be initiated.

Good luck...

couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 09:30 PST 32 of

You obviously haven't read the whole discussion.

FWIW, if that was meant for me, I've read the whole discussion dozens of times over the years - including early on when I was trying to make YOUR case...

n.s.sherlock (10 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 09:42 PST 33 of

I think some TV exec ought to be pitched the idea of "auction court". Cheated buyers or cheated sellers can have their "day in court".

Respectfully,

"Is this email for real?" What do I do now? Protect yourself. (click).

arnoldtrading (21 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 09:48 PST 34 of

The big picture is that eBay has no enforcement power. Their only capability is to discipline a seller and that is based on proper reporting to eBay.

eBay's punishment can be anything from warnings, listing removals and even suspension. In extreme cases, eBay has even notified law enforcement about some scammers. But criminal charges are up to the district attorney or attorney general, not eBay.

In my opinion, I would not rely on making just one complaint to eBay or PayPal. I would report each and every violation separately. And if I started a dispute within PayPal, I would make a separate report directly to eBay using the Contact Us section under eBay help.

jndbargains (124 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 10:00 PST 35 of

nss

we had a discussion somewhere a while back called "Ebay Court" on one of the boards...

since shows like peoples court already do ebay related cases, i'm surprised more people are NOT pursuing ebay related fraud IN court...sure most would be considered small claims, but it is a viable option...i remember one case involved a $12 purchase! it cost the buyer MORE in court fees, of course, but he pursued the case anyway...

OP, as been mentioned, ebay is hiding behind its "only a venue" phrasing

pursue your seller in court...file fraud charges, talk to your government...

couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 10:06 PST 36 of

sure most would be considered small claims, but it is a viable option

If by "viable", you mean there's a snowball's chance that the court will have jurisdiction, find in your favor and somehow collect a judgement against someone in another state, yeah, I suppose that's "viable". Highly impractical unless the bucks are big.

arnoldtrading (21 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 10:13 PST 37 of

Highly impractical unless the bucks are big.

In some cases, I could see filing a small claims court action if I thought I had a good chance of getting a judgement. Even if I had no potential way of collecting on that judgement. Some do not do it for the money, but to make a point.

And a judgement is normally reported on a credit report, so it could have some impact on a seller's ability to obtain future credit. The credit bureaus scour court proceedings for judgements and will try to match it to a credit report, even if a social security number is not available. Sometimes a mortgage company will want judgements satisfied before approving a loan and it could impact the rates someone qualifies for on loans or credit cards.

charm_for_a_day (10 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 10:37 PST 38 of

nbs - For what it's worth, you have my support as well. In fact, I believe you have the support of most people on this board. Unfortunately, we can't do much more than offer you support and links to places to report.

Caped and others have given you some good resources and places to start. I hope you do file reports with everywhere you possibly can. And I truly hope you get these 3 sellers taken down. I suspect you already know, however, that even if those 3 go down, there are thousands more to take their place...

So long as eBay maintains their "venue" status, they won't take the fall for the fraud that happens on their site. One of these big companies eventually will lodge a foot in the door, and hopefully open a crack wide enough to get some action. Maybe you can align yourself with a group that has a current case pending, or even start your own.

plasticrap (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 15:37 PST 41 of

threegigs:

By the "police" part of your name, you should know very well that FRAUD is a criminal act.

What's the point?

If you provide eBay with your court proceedings proving fraud..

Oh, wait... you did take them to court, right? You did prove them guilty, right?

Yes, I proved them guilty already. They sent me items that have nothing to do with the category, title, or description. They violated about five unenforced eBay policies. They violate and flaunt the Nat Am policy. They know what they're doing and they've been reported to eBay numerous times by many people and organizations. It doesn't take a court to prove fraud, now does it? If you buy a jukebox and they send you a spoiled pumpkin, does it take a court to prove fraud?

I want what was described

You have a very valid, legally enforceable contract. Call a lawyer and go about getting the item your contract describes. eBay is NOT the judicial system, and you are making the n00b mistake of thinking that it is.

eBay is responsible for the fraud taking place in the cyberspace store they rent to people. All this business about them not being responsible is just crap they've brainwashed you into believing. The person who rents property to criminals loses his property.

If eBay knows the items are fraudulent So, like I said above, take the seller to court, and then give eBay the documentation and they'll be shut down.

No, they won't be shut down by this mechanism. Perhaps eBay will be shut down for supporting, protecting, condoning, and profiting from criminal activities.

eBay facilitates criminal activity. 1) They allow "private" bidding so dupe bidders can't be contacted. 2) If bidders are contacted, you run the risk of being contacted. 3) If sellers are contacted with facts, you run the risk of being shut down. 4) If you run attack auctions on top of fraud auctions, you get them removed by criminals who complain. 5) If you run openly fraudulent auctions mimicking criminals, you get shut down. 6) If you file complaints against fraud auctions, you get ignored and the fraud continues. There is no indication after two years of watching and reporting fraud in the bead/Nat Am categories that eBay cares one iota for the criminal activity.

It's really very, very simple. The United States constitution takes precedence over eBay policy, and the sellers are innocent until proven guilty.

They've already been proven guilty. See above. I bought a jukebox and they sent me a spoiled pumpkin. It doesn't take lawyers, judges, juries, the Constitution, or anything but common sense toi prove the fraud. These sellers have been running the same scams hundreds of times for years and years. They've made a lot of money doing it and they make it impossible for honest sellers to sell the same merchandise honestly. eBay does nothing and this excercise of filing formal eBay complaints for misrepped merch actually received PROVES eBay does nothing. Go ahead eBay, "prove" me wrong!

eBay is renting space to criminals. Stop apologizing for them. They have the means to clean up the mess and this business that they're not responsible is just lies. LIES!

couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 15:41 PST 42 of

plasti - Before you get slapped and get another bug in your bonnet, you may wish to read this:

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/thread.jspa?threadID=410492015&tstart=0&mod=1109883437371

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 15:45 PST 43 of

The reality is that you may have filed with PayPal and if they refund, I am not even sure they notify eBay of any problem since the situation has been resolved. In effect, if you got a refund, eBay may turn a blind eye.

Did you make reports to eBay outside of the PayPal dispute?

This is another mechanism designed to protect fraud sellers. If I file for a refund I'll get it and that will be the end of it. The sellers have all offered refunds. I want what what described. If they can't deliver, then eBay has to act. If eBay brushes it off, this will be more proof that eBay doesn't care about fraud. It's all clear cut. Time to put up, eBay, or get named in further lawsuits for condoning criminal activity. "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

plasticrap (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 15:59 PST 44 of

couldabeenworse: Great example of the type of policies that actually do get enforced. We wouldn't want the public to gang up on eBay, now would we?

There are too many liberal toady apologists on this board. The facts are this: NBSpolice has a great argument. 1) 1000s have been cheated fraudulently; 2) 1000s have filed complaints to no avail; 3) 1000s have been ignored; 4) 1000s have filed fraud reports that get ignored; 5) eBay policies support fraud selling and condone it.

Check it out, Pal!

couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 16:05 PST 45 of

We wouldn't want the public to gang up on eBay, now would we?

What that policy addresses is clowns who create multiple IDs to pat each other on the back.

The facts are this:

You left out #6: eBay has repeatedly been found not to be legally liable for fraud on this site. I don't think anybody here disagrees with 1-5.

laieh (45 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 16:06 PST 46 of

plasticrap,

nobody is denying a thing you're saying. It's just that you expect eBay to be something that it isn't. You agreed to the terms of eBay's site when you signed up for a membership Just because you have a set of expectations, doesn't mean that's the reality of their site.

all_fakes (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 16:17 PST 47 of

I'll add 2 cents....I agree with many previous posters; there is nothing OP can do to obtain genuine items from a seller who deals in fakes. However, it is indeed a Federal crime to represent fakes as genuine Native made items, depending on the exact dates and details; I would report that to the Indian Arts and Crafts Board, if the items fit the standards; use the "report violations" link at http://www.doi.gov/iacb/act.html.

The IACB is willing to put pressure on ebay, if they are sure the items are fakes; and I have had useful dialog with real humans at the IACB. There is a huge amount of fraud in the Native art and artifact area; wood items like masks and totems are mass-produced by the thousands in Indonesia; new stone artifacts are routinely sold as old. Usually, ebay will not be able to recognize the fakes, based on an individual's report. Sometimes relevant evidence can be gathered; links to importers of the same item, for example.

One frustrating thing in the reporting of Native art fraud is that the reporting form is one of those that is so general that I imagine ebay can't tell what is being reported; as I've said many times before, it covers everything from grave-robbing to theft of stalactites, to art fraud, with no room to specify. I too have reported habitual offenders for years without results; but I have also had fairly quick action via the IACB, in some cases (like the seller who listed some obvious Indonesian items one week, honestly saying they were imports; next week, same seller claimed they were real artifacts.) Sorry for the rant; it is frustrating, and has indeed been going on for years, and there is more fraud in this area now than ever before.

charm_for_a_day (10 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 16:29 PST 48 of

If eBay brushes it off, this will be more proof that eBay doesn't care about fraud.

Do you need nore proof?

There are too many liberal toady apologists on this board.

OK... this is where I draw the line. No one has apologized for eBay or the lack of response to the issues. What we have done, however, is figure out that there are thousands of fraudulent auctions on the site at any given moment, and each of us can only do so much. Nearly every person posting on this board has taken on fraudsters of every kind - so we're not just patting you on the head and telling you to have a nice day.

Please direct your anger where it belongs, and put your energy into solving your problem, instead of striking out at those of us who have tried to help in one way or another. No matter how trivial our efforts may seem to you, we're here because we care about the same issues that you do, and have taken steps to make eBay a safer and better place to trade.

[email protected] View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 17:06 PST 51 of

All,

Unfortunately, there are some policy folks at ebay who are taking some extended holiday time off with their families, so a complete response to this thread may not come until next week.

In the mean time, I can make some general comments (counterfeit item policies are not under my domain). First, eBay does work proactively to shutdown the selling of counterfeit items on the site. As many of you have pointed out, this is a VERY tough battle, but one which we are gaining ground in.

I have thoroughly read all of the posts on this thread and hear the frustration. I do sympathize. I am forwarding this thread to the folks who manage these policies. Please be patient for a response.

Gonzo.

// Trust and Safety

charm_for_a_day (10 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 17:31 PST 53 of

Laieh - Agreed. We all - including Gonzo, I'll bet - realize that eBay isn't perfect, or even close to it. But we also seem to have a common goal, and that is to MAKE eBay be a safer place to trade. If our goal was simply to bring the company down, we wouldn't be so interested in helping people learn to use the site safely, would we?

all_fakes (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 18:14 PST 56 of

Thanks for replying, Gonzo; I was hoping someone might be listening.

If I may vent slightly more: one issue with fake Native art that is a bit unusual: many dealers who sell only fakes have ratings of 100% How? Imagine they import and list fakes at $10, but at a rate of only one auction per week, obvious Indonesian fakes....obvious to an expert in NW Native art. None of those experts bid; but collectors without experience buy them and are happy. They keep at it for years, many of the items close at $10, but sometimes a bidding war takes it to a few hundred, and there is a potential for a single fake mask to fetch thousands. And that is fairly typical of many ebay auctions in Native items; and not even something I would bother to report to ebay. How could ebay be expected to recognize the fakes? One reason so many are private.

plasticrap (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 18:17 PST 57 of

The situation is worse than the mere selling of fakes. We're talking about the selling of items that do not even have a Nat Am original. The frauds, who have been reported hundreds of times by dozens of people in this area alone are taking new stuff and pretending that it's old Nat Am stuff. The problem is so bad that people don't anymore believe the truth about these materials. Search "arrowheads beads". All the beads that come up are newly made in Africa and there never were any beads like this made by Nat Ams, the making of these beads is a modern industry, and Nat Ams never made glass beads to begin with. It's all complete fiction. Got it? Complete fiction! The sellers are selling IMAGINARY goods! Got it? IMAGINARY! There's no debate or proof needed. What they describe simply never existed!

eBay has been alerted to this for years by a lot of people. eBay ignores the reports and complaints. In fact, eBay will shut you down if you try to combat this through auctions.

When eBay hires some people to police these categories and cancel, modify, or tag fraud auctions, then we'll have progress. Until then, it's all hot air ignored by the cyber-landlord who aids and abets known criminal activity. So long!

plasticrap (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 18:23 PST 58 of

It's as if someone is trying to sell pieces of phonograph records once owned by Julius Caesar and everyone believes it after awhile because regular phonograph records without this story just aren't interesting.

Let's sell things that don't even exist and then just send the buyers some crap. Don't worry, eBay won't do anything about because, after all, who's paying fees, buyers or sellers?

couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 18:32 PST 59 of

When eBay hires some people to police these categories

"some people"????

You are aware that there are thousands of other fraud areas on eBay? It is unlikely that eBay will hire experts for each of them. What eBay COULD do is allow representatives from an established organization have sort of a VeRO power over obvious fraudulent listings. That's definitely worth pursuing if you have a group willing to donate their time.

gumball68 (492 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 18:34 PST 60 of

Something that I've been wondering for quite a while...

"The justice went on to say that any action against eBay is preempted by Sec. 230 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996, which says that “[n]o provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.�

Why didn't the venue defense work for sites like Suprnova? Every "criminal" activity that took place was off their server, and they didn't "own" any of the illegal material, but they still got shut down just by virtue of the fact that it was on their server at some point. Why is Ebay not held responsible for their third party content in the same way those sites were held responsible?

Why is facilitating illegal activity (ie, providing a venue for it) such a bad thing for everyone else who does it, but allowed when it's Ebay?

And seriously, I'm not trying to start anything. I'm genuinely curious if there is a legitimate reason for the apparent double standard here.

themagicmountain (362 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 18:44 PST 61 of

so much of this Native american stuff is fake everywhere- high fraud and faked items area

who would buy without having it authenticated? or believe that only $30 would buy a valuable item??

It doesn't make sense

themagicmountain (362 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 18:45 PST 62 of

And the fraud and fakes pre-date Ebay

itsmyfault33 (Private ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 18:50 PST 63 of

Re: post #60

"Why didn't the venue defense work for sites like Suprnova?"

Just a guess, but perhaps the law in Sweden is not the same as the law in the United States?

gumball68 (492 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 19:12 PST 64 of

>Just a guess, but perhaps the law in Sweden is not the same as the law in the United States?br> No, it's not the same.

There is another site, still in operation, whose owners are Swedish citizens and whose servers are on Swedish soil, and that site is still operating due to the fact that Swedish law recognizes that providing a venue for illegal activity (ie, providing the servers on which crimes are perpetrated) is not a crime in and of itself.

But in America, it seems you can be held liable for things other people did on your property, even without your knowledge. For example, if the cops showed up and found a 16 year old drunk in my kitchen, I'd be busted for contributing, whether I knew the kid was there and drinking or not.

Ebay is an American company, right? So they should be accountable to the laws of the US, and that's got me thinking that the "venue" defense is a loophole that's going to get pulled closed on them one day or another.

itsmyfault33 (Private ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 19:56 PST 65 of

http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/iclp/dmca1.htm

orange_cape_hides_me (Private ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 22:00 PST

Gonzo, thank you.

For those of you who don't know Gonzo, he's new on this board and every time he has appeared and said he would drag ask someone else in his department to read a thread and respond, they have.

Let's give him a chance. He's one of the good guys, and NBS you just might make some headway here.

Caped~ Not an apologist, just a realist.

all_fakes (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 23:21 PST 67 of

I'm certainly willing to give Gonzo a chance.

And its true that fraud and fakes pre-date ebay; but Ebay is by far the largest venue for fake native art and artifacts in the world today.

I'd guess that in my area of native art specialty, about half the fakes are copies of specific items from the major museums, with most of the rest being fantasy items.

It is not usually as simple as the Caesar/phonograph record example; there is usually not going to be any way for ebay to know that the Kwakiutl never used albesia wood in their carvings, or to distinguish cedar from albesia from a photo; though I and many others do and can; yet there are sellers on ebay who make thousands of dollars by intentionally misleading those who do not know the difference.

It is easy to say, "buyer beware," and "folks should know better;" but intentional misrepresentation is a crime. I'm not offering any easy solutions, either. But I do have some specific examples, illustrating if nothing else that fraud in Native items is as common and complex as that in fake designer items, though less often discussed.

all_fakes (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 23:29 PST 68 of

But I'd sure vote for better, more specific reporting forms, because.....

all_fakes (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-29-05 23:29 PST 69 of

69 people might want to use them.

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 00:29 PST 70 of

eBay is obviously and logically responsible for crimes committed on its cyber-premises. They're not an internet service provider like AOL. They're renting cyberspace to people who perpetrate crimes. They're analogous to the hotel operator who rents rooms to prostitutes. eBay aids and abets criminal activity and even has policies and practices that protect the criminals. This business about "not knowing anything about the multitude of items being sold" is no excuse either. So what? Crimes are being committed on their premises and they are profiting from these crimes. Other than this, both buyers and sellers are being hurt by these crimes. Buyers get the crap and honest sellers with genuine merchandise can't compete with over-hyped fakes.

The solution is to hire some experts, revise the categories so they make sense, and then weed out the fraud. I'm sure 50 people could do the job and I'm sure the cost of hiring these 50 people would be insignificant in the whole scheme of things. Replace lawyers with category experts.

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 00:43 PST 71 of

The notion that "volunteers" should do the job is a thoughtless joke. There are already thousands and millions of "volunteers" who have already filed millions of fraud complaints that have all been ignored. No, the solution is for eBay to hire people to enforce the policies and to investigate the complaints that are already streaming in by the thousands from the "community". Three months of seriousness will clean out the vast majority of fraud sellers. Also, make the fraud report form sensible and easy to use.

laieh (45 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 00:57 PST 72 of

Again you are trying to hold eBay to your expectation of what they should be, not what they actually are. It's like marrying a known alcoholic and expecting him to be sober after the wedding. Read the user agreement, you may not like it, but that's what you agreed to when you signed up for a membership.

couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 01:27 PST 73 of

I'm sure 50 people could do the job

Have you ANY clue as to how many listings ebay has at any given moment?

Just in your tiny little world of

Collectibles > Cultures, Ethnicities > Native Americana > Pre-0

there were over 800 listings posted within the last 24 hours, and that doesn't include ebaystore listings.

How many of your 50 experts do you suppose it would take to look at each of 800 listings per day, assess their content, and take corrective action - in just this one miniscule area?

I think we'd each love it if ebay would hire such experts for our own little area of interest, but it's just not going to happen. It would take many thousands of experts - each of whom is unlikely to work for minimum wage - and eBay would simply close its doors.

And here's a question for ya: if eBay actually DID employ experts in your area of concern, and those experts made a mistake - would eBay THEN be liable? After all, by hiring experts, they not only allowed but actually gave a fraudulent listing the stamp of approval?

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 01:35 PST 74 of

To laieh: Again you are trying to hold eBay to your expectation of what they should be, not what they actually are. It's like marrying a known alcoholic and expecting him to be sober after the wedding. Read the user agreement, you may not like it, but that's what you agreed to when you signed up for a membership.

orange_cape_hides_me (Private ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 01:42 PST 75 of

NBS if you really feel that way, you can challenge Ebay in court.

Until that happens, or legislation is passed that requires something more from Ebay, this is what the site offers: a place to post items for sale, a place to locate and purchase items and Ebay is the company that provides the venue to do that, with no liability.

That's what it is. We can rant, we can scream. I think Ebay is as aware of the fraud issues as we are. However there are NO easy solutions, so working WITH Ebay may be your best option.

Respectfully, Caped~

laieh (45 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 01:55 PST 76 of

the difference in my experience with ebay and yours is huge. between this ID and another I have nearly 500 transactions with ebay as both a seller and buyer, and have never been burned. Yes I've had problematic transactions but the end results have been I've never lost a dime. It may just be the areas in which we deal but I look at every transaction as mine and mine alone. The minute you start to blame someone for doing or not doing what it is you should or shouldn't be doing for yourself, you're bound to find fault.

I can empathize with your frustration in the fraud you see in your area of interest. Your concern for your fellow ebayers is admirable. But I don't take the attitude that I got mine now you get your own. If I did I wouldn't contribute to this board and share what it is that I think are valuable tips to stay safe on ebay. I see fraud in areas I deal in as well, like I said, that's why I'm here. Ebay will never be Utopia. But I think with proper education users can learn to navigate eBay with relative safety. There are no guarantees in life......other than death and taxes. And thank goodness this isn't a life and death proposition, it's only eBay.

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 02:04 PST 77 of

To coulda...:

Have you ANY clue as to how many listings ebay has at any given moment? there were over 800 listings posted within the last 24 hours, and that doesn't include ebaystore listings.

But there were many fewer unique sellers in this 800. And the experts will soon know who the bad guys are (we know already) and they'll be shut down right away. Auctions will be lost by the hundreds. The bums will need to list honestly or disappear.

How many of your 50 experts do you suppose it would take to look at each of 800 listings per day, assess their content, and take corrective action - in just this one miniscule area?

Most categories don't have serious problems and the "community" will keep the experts informed. At present, the "community" is ignored.

Fifty experts can do it because most sellers are honest. Don't worry about the number of auctions. Worry about the number of fraud sellers -- the guys who list hundreds of fraud items at a time. Catch one bad auction and they're all either fixed or gone.

...eBay would simply close its doors. Too bad! Brothels are illegal.

And here's a question for ya: if eBay actually DID employ experts in your area of concern, and those experts made a mistake - would eBay THEN be liable?

Maybe, but no more than they are now. I'm talking about blatant fraud and policy violations, not petty hair splitting.

After all, by hiring experts, they not only allowed but actually gave a fraudulent listing the stamp of approval?

We're not talking about assigning any Good Housekeeping seal of approval. They already have the meaningless joke feedback system. You can fix that too! We're talking about fraud and eliminating fraud sellers.

Do you have any idea what the eBay balance sheet looks like? Don't over-complicate the financials. They can afford fifty people (that's fifty more than today) and they can clean up the mess in three months. eBay needs quality control, just like all businesses. It's not "fun and safe".

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 02:25 PST 78 of

Landlords who rent to crack dealers get shut down, unless they're bribing the cops.

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 02:38 PST 79 of

To laieh: I'm not a novice and I haven't been burned either over some 2,000 transactions. Do you know how many honest listings it takes to make 2,000 transactions when your categories are filled with fraud sellers cheating true novices with grandiose lies? Buyers are being cheated; honest sellers are lost in the mishmash of fraudulent listings. All honest sellers who are crowded out by eBay-enabled criminals have legitimate cases against eBay. So do the buyers of fraud items whose complaints are ignored. It's illegal to operate brothels.

--Angela

laieh (45 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 02:39 PST 80 of

Landlords who rent to crack dealers get shut down, unless they're bribing the cops.

Your statement is missing one important word

"knowingly"

They don't condone illegal activity on their site, but they don't always know it's there. It could be argued that they don't want to know it's there. But for the analogy you gave, ebay would have to be knowingly complicit and I don't think that you could make such a blanket (and IMO reckless) statement.

In your assessment of eBay and it's members, where does personal responsibility come into play? You do know of course that eBay clearly states that you must be an adult for a valid membership. How do you propose that eBay go about protecting people from their own folly?

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 02:57 PST 81 of

To laieh: I have personally informed eBay hundreds of times on dozens of fraud sellers. They KNOW! Many of my colleagues have informed eBay on many of the same fraud sellers. We get ignored or computer-generated form letters. Do ask "who are you and why should eBay believe you." Do you know the difference between a horse and a cabbage? And anyway, the landlord doesn't have to know. Who says that?

eBay is turning a blind eye to the fraud and has developed a line of eyewash as they pretend to not be responsible. Their "community" is being cheated, they knopw this, and they do nothing about it while their renters commit crimes.

By the way, I've heard nothing concerning my complaints against the three fraud sellers that I filed through their cleverly evasive complaint system. I hope Gizmo comes through. What's his job? Deflect irate victims? I'm sure all the money eBay spends to create this see-through image of non-responsibility would go far to hiring the needed QC people. Why not put the lawyers to work? They know everything, don't they?

couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 03:19 PST 82 of

But there were many fewer unique sellers in this 800. And the experts will soon know who the bad guys are (we know already) and they'll be shut down right away.

All that means is that scammers will use multiple IDs. Are you under the impression that none of these scammers has ever been suspended before?

Most categories don't have serious problems

I'm sorry, but it's hard to take you seriously when you say stuff like that. There are crooks wherever there is money. Just backing up in your Cultures, Ethnicities area, there are 15 different areas represented; should each have it's own team of experts? Backing up one step further to Collectibles, there are dozens of categories, many with dozens of their own subcategories and so on. Then hop on over to antiques, art, cell phones, coins, electronics, dvds, music, sports, stamps and tickets and their categories, subcategories and subsubcategories - just to hit the COMMON scam areas. Should each of those have their own team of experts - or is your own little area something special?

would eBay THEN be liable? Maybe, but no more than they are now. Might be hard to convince ebay to hire experts for every category only to be exactly as liable as before.

laieh (45 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 03:38 PST 83 of

When you speak of the problem of fraud on ebay in many respects you're preaching to the choir. However it would seem you feel ebay should hold my hand and I contend as an adult, I'm responsible for my actions, mistakes and all.

If someone out there wants to ride their motor cycle without a helmet, the manufacturer of the motorcycle isn't held responsible for the rider's folly. Do they know some bonehead out there is just itching to be an organ donor? Perhaps, after all, I believe that their targeted market is the free spirit.

You can hold eBay's feet to the fire all you want but that won't address the issue of personal responsibility. The reason you and I haven't been scammed isn't just luck you know. We do our homework, we know what it is that we are bidding on. We scrutinize our sellers, we pay using secure methods. The majority of the scammers would dry up if people used this site responsibly. If eBay did nothing more than educate it's members, they would have to do little else to stem the tide of fraud. When members are well equipped and armed with the knowledge to protect themselves they'll no longer be lambs to the slaughter. Forewarned is forearmed.

threegigs (126 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 04:09 PST 84 of

I have personally informed eBay hundreds of times on dozens of fraud sellers.

Then post the court cases already or SHUT IT!.

Holy cow, man, you are assuming the role of judge and jury, and want eBay to be your executioner. Well, PROVE IT, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to us, right here and now.

Call the cops already. Sheesh. eBay wasn't defrauded, YOU WERE. eBay doesn't have a case. YOU DO. Scan a copy of the police report(s) you've filed, blank out personal info and POST A COPY HERE.

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 04:22 PST 85 of

To coulda: As mentioned, most categories don't have serious problems. Read carefully. I sell in lots of categories. Most don't have problems. It's obvious that many of the problems are the result of eBay permitting fraud sellers to list in wrong categories, use unrelated buzzwords in titles, and tell obvious (to experts) lies in the descriptions. eBay doesn't enforce policies. The three auctions I'm using here for this exercise all survived because no one at eBay responded to complaints concerning these sellers. Furthermore, they all violate the Nat Am relics policy and laws.

Here's the reality: eBay's earnings are mostly generated from fraud. If eBay exterminated fraud, their income would drop a whole lot. So it's not in their interest to fight fraud; they'd rather spend money making up goofy unenforced policies pretend to be concerned, all the while trying to convince us they have no responsibility.

You greatly exaggerate the problem. It's easy for experts to spot fraud in their areas. You don't think one stamp expert could clean up the whole category? I do. How many stamp sellers are there? New IDs? The clever sleuth will catch them. Sorry, Pal. You over-complicate and you're just making excuses for eBay's lack of due diligence.

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 04:41 PST 86 of

Gigs: What court cases? I was cheated by criminals operating out of the eBay premises. eBay knows these people are criminals. eBay is doing nothing about it. Can't you read either?

Any police report or lawsuit will name eBay as co-conspirator. So will any mail fraud complaint. So will any report to the Indians.

Maybe someone will be kind enough to show this forum articles where eBay has been forced by the courts or by the threat of lawsuits to clean up the fraud sellers. Tiffany comes to mind. There must be others. Or is the sharing of this info against eBay policy?

ilfifi (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 04:48 PST 87 of

OP...since you think you know so much about how things should be done on eBay .... How about your opinion on what should be done about the huge number of FRAUD BUYERS? Buyers who do charge backs. Buyers who return a different item than they received. Buyers who claim they never received the item when in fact they did. The list goes on and on.

NOW....Do you think eBay should be held responsible for these fraud buyers? If you say yes, you are a fool. It is not eBay`s responsibility to hold each and every hand involved in a selling or buying transaction. IF YOU CAN NOT DO YOUR HOMEWORK ABOUT AN ITEM....STAY OFF INTERNET AUCTIONS.

Even brick and mortar stores can and do sell knock-offs or unkowingly or knowingly misrepresent authenticity of an item. Want to hold that landlord responsible if an antique dealer {HIS TENENT} sold you a fake American indian bracelet? Try to take that one to court and see how fast you get thrown out.

nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 05:25 PST 88 of

ilfifi: OP...since you think you know so much about how things should be done on eBay .... How about your opinion on what should be done about the huge number of FRAUD BUYERS?

***Fraud buyers? Your problem. Do your homework. This thread is about fraud sellers and eBay's involvement in abetting fraud.

NOW....Do you think eBay should be held responsible for these fraud buyers?

***eBay does not profit from fraud buyers. I'm sure they'll support you the seller if your monthly rent is high enough.

It is not eBay`s responsibility to hold each and every hand involved in a selling or buying transaction.

***No one's asking for hand holding. Everyone wants known con artists removed from the premises. eBay obviously doesn't respond to fraud reports and allows criminal activity on its premises.

IF YOU CAN NOT DO YOUR HOMEWORK ABOUT AN ITEM....STAY OFF INTERNET AUCTIONS.

***You obviously can't read either.

Even brick and mortar stores can and do sell knock-offs or unkowingly or knowingly misrepresent authenticity of an item.

***And do you you condone these practices?

Want to hold that landlord responsible if an antique dealer {HIS TENENT} sold you a fake American indian bracelet? Try to take that one to court and see how fast you get thrown out.

***Are you sure? This thread is about "what's eBay going to do" about known fraud sellers who knowingly sell imaginary items from eBay's premises. The answer appears to be "nothing". In fact, policies and practices support and protect these fraud sellers. eBay is responsible for providing a "safe and fun" place to trade. It's not "safe and fun" anymore. They aid and abet fraud selling and slop a whole bunch of phoney eyewash around and pretend it's none of their business. It's curious: I notice it becomes their business anytime someone hassles the criminals.

That's all, Folks!

charm_for_a_day (10 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 06:35 PST 89 of

nbs - What exactly is it you want from the posters on this board? We agree - there's fraud on eBay. We agree - eBay could do more to rid the site of fraud. We agree - it's terribly frustrating. We agree - fraudsters should be shut down and sent to jail.

So why are you here, tossing slams at the folks who AGREE with you? What is it you think we can do, other than what we have been doing for quite a while - reporting violations and giving whatever assistance we can to those who have been defrauded?

If you just want to vent, I'm sure most posters would be more than happy to clear the room and let you throw chairs and tables around. Just let us know.

If, however, you're looking to round up a possee and storm eBay's "warehouse," you're in the wrong movie.

I'll ask again - why are you expending all this energy yelling at us? We AGREE with you! But the more you insult and degrade, the less people are going to care about your issue, and in fact, folks will start to view what is truly a serious complaint as just a temper tantrum. I suspect quite a few already do.

hermine_93 (18 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 06:41 PST 90 of

Personally, I haven’t gotten ripped off much because I would never make a major purchase on eBay now that eBay's become so much of a scammer's paradise. However, I'm so tired of all this sanctimonious BS about how eBay is just this innocent venue, like a BBS or a newspaper or the landlord of an antique store that I had to speak up and set the record straight.

To the person who said: this is what the site offers: a place to post items for sale, a place to locate and purchase items and Ebay is the company that provides the venue to do that, with no liability.

And to the person who kept saying that OP was expecting Ebay to be something other than what it is.

OP WAS EXPECTING EBAY TO BE WHAT EBAY ADVERTISES ITSELF AS. And that is an issue wherein eBay might be held both civilly and criminally liable.

EBay is accepting money from sellers, knowing that a certain proportion of them are scammers. EBay doesn't just sell them bandwidth; that can be had for free on places like postaroo and craigslist, even on a number of web forums like ezboard. Ebay is selling the people who list items access to trusting buyers.

EBay is NOT just a venue when eBay advertises buyer protection that is almost never usable, lulling more victims into a false sense of security.

EBay is NOT behaving as a neutral venue when it punishes people for warning buyers of scamming sellers.

Nor is it behaving neutrally when it helps fraudsters run out the clock on victims by consistently urging defrauded buyers to be patient and try to work it out with the seller, until it's too late for the victim to do anything, and never mentioning the deadline until they finally try to file for reimbursement.

EBay is helping scammers to make their victims feel safe and helping scammers to get away with scamming. EBay is behaving as an ACTIVE ACCOMPLICE in more ways than just by providing the space in which the scams take place.

Ebay is also engaging in CRIMINAL false advertising of a "fun and safe" "well-lit" venue, which is used to convince people new to online buying to fall victim to the fraudsters that ebay harbors and, through its policies, knowingly (not individually but collectively) abets. Let me clarify this last bit. Ebay knows that the policy on interference will help scammers. Ebay knows that urging fraud victims to be patient until the clock runs out on buyer protection will reduce the number of reports of scammers as well as the number of buyer protection complaints that ebay has to pay. Ebay knows that the impossibility of getting a real human response from eBay's trust and safety department helps fraudsters. Ebay knowingly makes these decisions and that's more than just lack of due diligence, that's a deliberate decision to aid and abet fraud.

EBay is not stupid, just very shortsighted, (so much so that it can't see the class-action freight train that is doubtless approaching). EBay is not unaware that fraud goes on, nor is eBay unaware that fraudulent sellers are almost as lucrative as legit ones and paying buyer protection awards is expensive. Through those policies, eBay is KNOWINGLY providing a venue for fraud and ACTIVELY protecting fraudsters against victims. This needs to stop and the sooner eBay cleans up its act the less it'll hurt.

This post will no doubt be deleted because I am urging you to take both criminal and civil action against eBay. Stop wasting your time trying to work within the ebay system and force change through the legal system. Frankly, eBay NEEDS a wake-up call. My advice to you is get together with other victims of fraud and file a class action.

imcollectordan (Private ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 06:47 PST 91 of

Ebay does NOT know the people are criminals. Ebay does not have the expertise to KNOW that these people are criminals. Ebay does NOT have the items on hand to verify them, therefore they cannot get involved, unless law enforcement contacts them, with proof that the sellers are comitting a criminal activity.

When the Stamps section started to go to he}} in a handbag a couple of years ago, there was enough pressure from genuine stamp dealers for Ebay to get an outside force in to help them police the auctions. They now have all reports of SUSPECTED fakes/fraud go through the American Philatelic Society ( who have a couple of memebers on hand to read through submitted reports and look at the items themselves ). Admittedly stamp fakes are far easier to spot from a photo/scan, whereas items such as you are talking about probably cannot be found to be fakes without actually seeing the item first hand.

I also think that anyone buying known fakes is in the same category as the seller themselves, whatever their reason, but that is just my opinion.

 Dan the stamp man

hermine_93 (18 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 06:56 PST 92 of

Let me clarify for you AGAIN, since you couldn't be bothered to read and understand my post.

Ebay does not know that A PARTICULAR SELLER is a criminal.

However, eBay knows that a number of its customers are fraudsters and eBay knows that a number of it policies make it easier for the fraudsters.

hermine_93 (18 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 07:01 PST 93 of

Correction, eBay does not usually know that a particular seller is a criminal, though ebay has apparently been pretty criminally negligent in those situations.

However, in the case of the policy decisions and the false advertising, ebay is criminally liable for actions actively taken, not just negligence.

You can't advertise safety out of one side of your mouth and say you're not responsible for saftety out of the other. You're responsible for what you advertise, whether or not you'd otherwise be obligated to provide it.

arnoldtrading (21 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 07:46 PST 94 of

I have personally informed eBay hundreds of times on dozens of fraud sellers.

Why should eBay take your word or those of your colleagues? The reality is that it is often difficult for a non-expert to pick out a fake item. So eBay is unlikely to act on a report for a fraudulent listing, as its non-experts review a listing.

Who knows, you may be a competing seller just trying to eliminate the competition or have other agendas that make you report these listings.

And while I may not agree, if a seller provides you with a refund for a fake, has there actually been a fraud committed? I mean, you have been made whole and have no loss of funds. That is why Significantly Not As Described and fraud complaints need to be made both with eBay and PayPal.

In addition, if you puchased a fake item and even got a refund, you could still leave appropriate feedback warning other potential buyers.

arnoldtrading (21 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 07:56 PST 95 of

However, eBay knows that a number of its customers are fraudsters and eBay knows that a number of it policies make it easier for the fraudsters.

There are bad people in the world. Some of those bad people (both buyers and sellers) are present on eBay. If you encounter a bad person in real life, you probably take some measures to protect yourself. And if you meet a stranger in real life, you probably take appropriate measures to protect yourself, as you do not know if the person is good or bad.

And since virtually every trading partner on eBay is a stranger, why should someone not take appropriate measures to protect themselves and their hard earned money?

all_fakes (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 09:05 PST 96 of

Lotta good comments, on all sides....to put myself in the middle, I too advocate personal responsibility, but I'd also like to see lots of people working together to make/keep ebay as good as it could be.

One very easy way would be to add a comment box to the report form for this area. That would answer Dan's valid concerns (post #91), as to how ebay is supposed to know something is fake; give some space to explain, help ebay weed out the crackpots and competitors.

On the other hand, many of the things that OP would like eBay to do are not ebay's job, IMHO; though OP makes a number of very valid points, preaching to the choir as to the extent of fraud.

all_fakes (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 09:10 PST 97 of

Absolutely, Arnold; everybody should take every possible measure to protect themselves, and I applaud those who work to spread info on how to do that; but also, when one sees a crime take place, there are times that one should report it, in the proper way to the proper parties, and it is appropriate to do so.

couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 09:41 PST 98 of

Here's the reality: eBay's earnings are mostly generated from fraud

LOL - and you just got done saying that most categories don't have serious problems. Must be some big bucks in those NA beads. carry on...

couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 09:41 PST 99 of

This post will no doubt be deleted because I am urging you to take both criminal and civil action against eBay.

I doubt it; I do that practically every day.

arnoldtrading (21 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 09:41 PST 100 of

when one sees a crime take place, there are times that one should report it, in the proper way to the proper parties, and it is appropriate to do so.

If I see a crime and call the police, that does not mean the perpertrator will be immediately arrested and convicted. The police will take a report. In a big city with stretched resources, what action the big city police put forth in investigating may be almost non-existant.

eBay is the same way. They take a report and their stretched resources can only do a cursory review. They are primarily looking for violations of policy that can be easily enforced. Reports of fakes and bootlegs are much more difficult to enforce. This is why reports from actual buyers are very important. The issue is that many do not fully make all the reports to eBay. I would not stop at just filing a PayPal dispute. I would make a separate report to eBay, even if I got a refund.

That being said, if a particular seller was getting multiple reports from different members pointing out the same problems, eBay should take additional steps to investigate those claims. Failing to do so, borders on negligence. One legal weak link in eBay's venue status, at least in my own eyes, is someone including eBay in a suit for negligence for failing to act on certain reports. So if I had an inkling that a seller was reported to eBay for selling fakes and there were multiiple reports and I as a buyer were burned, I wonder if negligence on eBay's part would be a way around their venue status. After all, they take reports on illegal activity, so ignoring those reports, could be a factor.

Of course, I am not an attorney, but I am sure many attorneys are trying to find ways to make eBay and PayPal liable. This may just be one possible way to find the weak link in eBay armor.

couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 10:36 PST 104 of

So if I had an inkling that a seller was reported to eBay for selling fakes and there were multiiple reports and I as a buyer were burned, I wonder if negligence on eBay's part would be a way around their venue status.

So far, no court has seen it that way. It has been the point of several cases, and frankly I doubt that you'd find a lawyer that would be interested unless you cough up big fees up front.

BTW, are you really suggesting that ebay pull listings just on the basis of reports?

couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 10:37 PST 105 of

And while I may not agree, if a seller provides you with a refund for a fake, has there actually been a fraud committed?

Yes.

all_fakes (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 11:10 PST 106 of

Yes; although under the Indian Arts and Crafts Act, it seems a seller can avoid the worst penalties (5 years/potential $250,000 fine) by offering a refund when a buyer complains about the fake. Also, note the IACA does not apply to Canadian First Nations items, though ebay policies on native and indian items do appear to apply.

arnoldtrading (21 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 11:20 PST 107 of

BTW, are you really suggesting that ebay pull listings just on the basis of reports?

No, but if eBay gets multiple reports from different members, it should probably start a formal investigation and try to either prove or deny the claims made. What good are reports if they take no action at all? Heck, if I was eBay and got one report from the OP, I would probably not do much about it. But if I got 10 reports from different members, I think it may deserve some additional attention or scrutiny.

tunatofu (969 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 11:42 PST 108 of

NB, we TOTALLY GET IT, unfortunately what you want from your sellers, they DO NOT have and CAN NOT provide!! You want AUTHENTIC Native American items and they deal in counterfeit/knockoffs/copies. They dont have any authentic items to send you.

You are VERY fortunate to be offered a refund (which you can use as a club to beat them over the head for a long time to come - if they promise Ebay/Paypal that you are getting a refund, they will know that you are due one at least). It is the LEAST they can do (give you your money back).

Yes when I buy a particular widget I too want the real deal AND at the price I paid. But when they dont have it, they dont have it. What are ya gonna do? You already havent gotten a satisfactory item; PLEASE dont let them keep your money too (which they are close to doing if you dont resolve this in the timeframe allowed).

orange_cape_hides_me (Private ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 12:59 PST 109 of

Someone above spoke about what a buyer CAN do to effect change on the site. Dan spoke about what the stamp sellers have done - with a lot of success. That's the community getting together to effect change.

Someone said that just because you get your refund you don't have to stop there. Well I'd like to think I was helpful in cleaning up the tools area on Ebay. That's how I became involved in helping others. I was sold a counterfeit tool - advertised to be something manufactured by one of the Big 5 American tool makers. It wasn't. 3486 people before me bought knockoffs. Only 30 left negatives. None of them had filed reports!

I not only received my refund, I also contacted the tool manufacturers, hand fed them the VERO sign up sheet and contact information, and then spent 6 months showing them what categories to look in, and how to report auctions.

One of these manufacturers went a step further and brought in US Customs to make a raid - which was enabled because Ebay cooperated and provided the address and name of the seller. That one arrest and publication of the arrest, as well as having the VERO members scan listings and report turned that area of sales around. If someone is going to sell knock off tools they have to list in a different category and cannot use brand names to advertise. And it was the VERO members who made sure this was enforced.

The same can be done in almost any area of sales on Ebay - the VERO members have a lot of power. They need to use it. And if it's a collectible area like coins, stamps, Nat. Amer. artifacts - then the collecting community can present themselves to Ebay to work WITH them as the authenticators. Ebay has clearly shown a willingness by precedence to do this.

That seems the most efficient and quickest way to clean up that area of sales. Yes, you can also try to get a US Attorney or other government entity involved in suing eBay. You can also pursue civil litigation against Ebay and spend vast amounts of personal money to see the suit through.

Ebay has court decisions to back up their VENUE status. They also have the California Auctioneers Act which specifically excludes Ebay as an auctioneering entity - reaffirming their venue status.

You will have to come up with a valid, sensible and strong case to over come what Ebay has. The only chance of that happening soon is the Tiffany's case. And even then most legal experts agree that any potential victory in that case will be very narrow in scope and will only relate to VERO takedowns for copyright owners, which would not apply in the Nat. Amer. category.

That IS the reality of the situation right now. If you are frustrated and concerned, do what members of this board do - help EDUCATE others.

However attacking the company that we all clearly have to thank for allowing us this venue to sell, buy and interact is NOT going to work. Not unless you do so off their site, through legal means. In which case continuing a discussion HERE about it will be ended by Ebay - this is their site.

And for those that think that providing the Buyers Protection Policy is NOT enough to assist defrauded buyers - just remember that Ebay is not required to provide ANY payment in failed transactions. The BPP is provided as a courtesy by Ebay - they can discontinue it at any time and are within their rights to do so.

It's little compared to what really occurs on the site, but let's not forget that it is something, and something which they provide without being required to do so.

Thank you to everyone that works so hard to help others on this site, it's commendable and shows you care about Ebay as a site to do business. We're all in the same boat regarding the frustration. I think the difference is how we go about effecting change. In that we disagree.

Hopefully someone from T&S will come by despite the rhetoric on this thread and provide some avenues for direct communication for NBS and his fellow collectors so the category of concern can be addressed.

Respectfully, Caped~

tunatofu (969 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 13:09 PST 110 of

The jewelry board (I am also a member there) deals with the issues of NA items that are imported and NOT antique OR crafted by natives and "Tiffany" counterfeits from Hong Kong all the time.

You may try going there but I fear they too will tell you to at least get your refund in hand and neg the sellers. There is more you can do but take those first steps before fighting the bigger battle. You are not going to get any authentic items from those sellers. At least get your money back.

ilfifi (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 13:12 PST 111 of

OP....YOU SAID....I'm not a novice and I haven't been burned either over some 2,000 transactions.

So, up until you decided to intentionally bid on items YOU KNEW were fake ... you were happy with your 2,000 other transactions on ebay?

You asked ... "And do you you condone these practices"?.......that is a STUPID question....OF COURSE NOT!

ALSO..... Your response that fraud buyers are MY problem is also stupid. You think YOU are the only one with problems? I am not crying and kicking my feet about here and jumping down everyone`s throat. YOU ARE. And don`t tell me that.... "this thread is about JUST fraud sellers.....I`M JUST MAKING A POINT TO SHOW YOU that FRAUD exists on both sides of the fence!

>You are lashing out at everyone on this thread and telling us we can`t read? BUDDY, CLEAN YOUR EARS " err your EYES " ..... YOU CAN NOT LISTEN! No one here is condoning fraud. No one here is sticking up for any kind of internet fraud. Your bully insults and actions here are NOT going to gain any favor or even support anymore. You were given excellent advise from the posters here but all you want is a platform to pound your chest and hear yourself speak.

With your tunnel-vision and ready to argue and fight attitude you will HURT your cause of protecting the sale of genuine American Indian items.

These people NEED A BETTER SPOKESPERSON who can get their point across! I said GOOD LUCK, to you, in my first post....I NOW say GOOD LUCK to the American Indians if you are representing them and their cause. They`ll need all the luck they can get and they DESERVE a better representative.

themagicmountain (362 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 13:16 PST 113 of

" have personally informed eBay hundreds of times on dozens of fraud sellers"

Who says that you know? Some so-called "experts" have also sold fakes, and some have also made false complaints about COMPETITORS to try to drive them out of business.

threegigs (126 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 14:17 PST 114 of

I believe nbspolice has finally realized how libelous some of his statements have been. It sucks when bad sellers have a right to sue.

plasticrap (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 16:01 PST 115 of

To threegigs: The truth hurts, doesn't it? NBSpolice has exposed fraud sellers, eBay hypocrisy, and the impotence of these eyewash forums to force change. To bad if you can't handle it.

Preaching to the choir? Fine! But there are two choirs here. Choir One is a defeatist waste-your-time voice that can't read. Choir Two sees the truth at the risk of being driven off and insulted by the criminals and toadies. Where are you?

It's time eBay erases this thread. They're not going to do anything to protect victims of known criminal fraud sellers. We all know this, don't we?

ilfifi (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 17:59 PST 116 of

plasticrap

Ahh, another grandstander on his soapbox.

OK....Bigshot, what are you going to do about all this alleged fraud other than being number 2 with the insults at anyone here giving advise that you don`t want to hear?

By the way, are you AKA nbspolice ? He used up his 9 freebie posts so now you take over where he left off with the nasty name calling. Fess up. Are you one and the same? The lingo sounds the same. The insults sound the same. ALL NASTY.

Your name calling and accusations of the posters here will not gain you any back up of anything you have to say. Both you and your alter ego have lost credibility.

Stop pounding so hard on your chest. You`ve already lost the audition for the new King Kong movie.

beadpolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 18:12 PST 117 of

Right on, hermine_93 and all_fakes.

I have been mentioning class-action suit for a couple of years now. Sure, the problem is everywhere on eBay. But every one of you, as well as I, have our specialty areas where we notice the problem the most.

While we still have a little freedom of speech left, some of us talk about this stuff on a regular basis. And discuss misrepresentation in our area. After all, we need to find each other to organize anything, including a class action suit. And of course, contacting anyone re. something they've been scammed on is regarded as interfering with an auction.

So here's a discussion board for the misrepresenatation of beads on the net. I invite others to post links to boards disussing misrepping of any other areas you know about. Hurry up, before they snuff this entire thread.

http://nationalbeadsociety.org/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi/bdid?cmd=iYz&aK=4&iZz=4&gV=0&kQz=&aO=1&iWz=0

call*me*laurie (57 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 18:40 PST 119 of

Hurry up, before they snuff this entire thread

Why in God's name do users keep saying this? Unless there are continued flagrant violations to the thread, eBay will not.

Some posting to this thread may want to read this board:

And pay special attention to the thread titled

Feedback of 10+ required for unlimited posting in Discussion & Chat Boards

where it states:

Regardless of choice of user id, each member is expected to post with only one user id, so that all others (not just regulars on a board but newcomers as well) can know with whom they are communicating from post to post and day to day. Many of those who choose posting ids with which to help other members have always been faithful in using a single id so that the Community always knows who they are.

If an individual chooses to post with a user id that has less than ten Feedback, they should be aware that by doing so they are also voluntarily limiting their ability to post to 10 posts per day.

dedeyomo (78 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 18:59 PST 121 of

Look at the auctions plasticrap is bidding on. Is he setting up more stings? Why is it against the rules to bid on auctions you know are fake?

beadpolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 19:51 PST 122 of

Sorry, Laurie and Sherlock, beadpolice is registered to a different person than the other 2 id's you are trying to associate me with. This is the second post I have ever left at this site, just to let you know. And, furthermore, my id as a seller has over 700 uniques and nearly 3000 total. And, I have been registered as an ebay seller since September 1999. So, don't automatically conclude you are talking down to newbies here, okay? Thanks!

call*me*laurie (57 ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 20:12 PST 123 of

Beadpolice, My post was for informational purposes only. I did not infer that you were the same poster as others on this thread, now did I?

That being said, you and all those interested in the way eBay deals with NA items should do as the others suggested. Daring eBay to delete the thread (and possibly posting violations to cause this thread to be pulled) is not in your best interest, now is it?

If this thread is deleted, it will not be for the sibject matter, but for the violations found therein, IMHO. Is this what you want?

rusticmanners (Private ) View Listings | Report Dec-30-05 20:15 PST 125 of

I did not infer that you were the same poster as others on this thread, now did I?

No, you didn't Laurie, but the conclusion can be jumped to just by looking at the posting history of all three IDs. All created recently, all post only on the nbs threads. It's unusual to say the least.

Anger is one letter short of Danger. Choose your words carefully.

126- jp

threegigs (126 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 02:35 PST 128 of

Well, as far as any substantive proof has been offered (which it hasn't), all three appear to be simply trying to get rid of the competition. It's looking really bad without proof, bead people.

bead-collector (772 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 08:37 PST 129 of

Auction interference....

Interfering with the outcome of an auction...

This is a policy that eBay really needs to rethink,

It's an old policy, back when eBay thought people were basically honest. Because of that we have to look at the original intent of the policy. It was basically put in place to protect the patrons of its venue from a few unscrupulous patrons.

Well I for one still believe that most people are basically honest and they are getting frustrated. An honest person should contact a seller of an item that is misrepresented. Most of these sellers really aren't acting responsibly. Give them the benefit of doubt, let them know your concerns and facts nicely. A few of the more responsible ones are open to the possibility that they made a mistake. I can see the frustration the honest person can have with the more irresponsible sellers. You see an injustice unfolding, as an honest person with a sense of right from wrong and you are just supposed to sit back and let it happen. That is not how I zwas raised. So you contact the bidders / buyers to warn them. Oops that's "interfering with the outcome of an auction", do that again and your are out of here. That must feel like a kick in the face to someone who was trying to do, what they perceived as, the right thing. Now with many sellers using eBay as a source of income and the market more & more competitive there is a "monkey see monkey do" attitude amongst the sellers. They see eBay as out of control and won't enforce policies that affect eBays bottom line. With so many monkeys on the rope, it's not hard to see how one could jump to the conclusion that eBay's policies can be construed as aiding & abetting.

There are a lot of informed people out there with a strong sense of community that want to help. We want to interfere with the injustice not eBay. Let us contact the seller and bidders both at the same time via cc. all parties involved or be able to put a flag on the auction to warn the bidders and sellers that there are inconsistencies with an auction. Give us the tools to put pressure on sellers to act more responsibly.

David and Joyce bead-collector

tasart55 (113 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 09:45 PST 130 of

My 2 cents worth!

• I am a buyer on ebay........
• I collect rare beads of all types......
• I am fairly knowledgable about what I am looking to buy......
• I have been a bead collector for over 20 years......
• I am fairly well known and respected by other knowledgable collectors.....
• I have made many bead purchases on ebay for several years......
• I have noticed a HUGE EXPLOSION of fraudulent selling practices on ebay in the past few years.... The misrepresentations are as rampant as ever!

  The problem is many fold:

  1. many buyers eat the BS that is fed to them by these unscrupulous THIEVES! Many probably never knowing that the "collector" bead they purchased is a cheap trinket with a glossed over Fraud story.
  2. I have personally contacted dozens of sellers informing them of inaccurate descriptions only to be "blown off" by them. This leads me to believe that they are knowingly commiting fraud.
  3. When there is obvious fraud being commited, I am helpless to contact anyone about it
  4. I find ebay has a responsibility to police itself to an extent and I find it impossible to participate in this policing when I could be contributing to justice. I find the "blind eye" by ebay to be one of the greatest injustices of all.
  5. I am also disapointed in many on this forum for making excuses for this blatant injustice and I can only wish for your enlightenment (hopefully not on the loosing end of a costly FRAUDULENT sale) even though I believe this is what it would take to wake some of you up to the reality of the garbage going on here!

  My time is valuable and limited, I may or may not respond to comments (what's the use anyway, your all just spinning your wheels)!

  couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 09:54 PST 131 of

  Let us contact the seller and bidders both at the same time via cc. all parties involved or be able to put a flag on the auction to warn the bidders and sellers that there are inconsistencies with an auction.

  You are free to contact the seller, and as you have noted, some will respond positively and others will not. As for contacting bidders or flagging listings, don't for a minute think that the same dirtballs that deliberately list phony stuff wouldn't be contacting YOUR bidders and flagging YOUR listings with lies. AND "experts" who don't really know as much as they think will pile on as well. Those policies are in place to protect legitimate sellers, and unfortunately end up protecting the slimeballs in the process.

  BTW - in some areas, sellers include FAQs in their listings or ME pages to help educate buyers as to how to identify fakes.

  I am also disapointed in many on this forum for making excuses for this blatant injustice

  Nobody's making excuses for injustice; many are pointing out that the fixes aren't as simple as we'd like.

  tasart55 (113 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 10:34 PST 133 of

  Nobody's making excuses for injustice; many are pointing out that the fixes aren't as simple as we'd like. What fixes????

  Let me make myself as clear as possible!

  I do not sell, I collect! I buy! I watch THIEVES sell all day long on ebay and there is nothing I can do about it!!!

  I contact the THIEVES about their listings and they just smile all the way to the bank because they know unless I bid and buy I have no recourse!!! Your statement "some will respond positively" does not apply to ANY of the FRAUD seller I have contacted.....I am just a gnat in their big pile of "DOODY", a mere nuisance that goes away very quickly.

  As a buyer I am disgusted by the disregard for the SAFETY for buyers on ebay....Prove me wrong!

  ebay's quote: eBay wants to ensure that everyone who participates in the eBay community has a safe and enjoyable experience.

  These rules apply to buyers, sellers,.... this ensurance is null and void looking at it from my perspective!!! Give me a place where I can help expose the FRAUD and we'll see about making it safer until then don't be gullible enough to believe there is anything safe about buying here!

  laieh (45 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 10:52 PST 134 of

  Ebay has policies in place and acts to protect it's bottom line. Whether or not you agree they are acting responsibly or fairly isn't going to advance this cause.

  There has been a huge proliferation of scam auctions on ebay over the last 2 years. It would seem that there is more than one approach for this, one being attacking scammers from the demand end of things. Who are the ones bidding on these auctions? You (OP and others) it would seem are a part of a rather knowledgeable community of sellers/collectors/buyers. You could do a lot to advance your cause by educating those who would be enticed by these frauds. Is there a newsletter, mailing list, trade org that could put out educational material to assist the novice in discerning the authenticity of items? Perhaps if through those channels you could assert some real pressure on eBay. Your rants in this forum are only reaching a limited audience. No one is really defending eBay, but rather we recognize we don't wield much power to effect change.

  couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 11:03 PST 135 of

  Your statement "some will respond positively" does not apply to ANY of the FRAUD seller I have contacted.....I am just a gnat in their big pile of "DOODY", a mere nuisance that goes away very quickly.

  That statement was addressing that to bead-collector, who had some positive results. I fully understand that many sellers intentionally mislead buyers.

  What fixes????

  I was again referring to the previous poster's suggested fixes including contacting bidders and flagging listings, as well as the initial suggestion that ebay hire experts for every possible category and have them inspect every single listing.

  I understand your frustration, but nobody here "making excuses for blatant injustice". What many are saying is that the "fix" will likely involve cooperative efforts with dealers (as in the stamps area), direct actions of buyers against sellers (lawsuits, FTC, state AG and other complaints) or getting law enforcment dragged into the 21st century. The only way for eBay to "fix" this on their own is to lock the door and call it a night.

  ilfifi (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 11:34 PST 136 of

  Your heart is in the right place when you say...

  So you contact the bidders / buyers to warn them. Oops that's "interfering with the outcome of an auction", do that again and your are out of here. That must feel like a kick in the face.

  Unfortunately, what can and has happened is the following....

  1. Competitors contacting bidders to steer them away from competing auctions
  2. Disgruntled past buyers contacting bidders with lies
  3. Self appointed so called EXPERTS will contact bidders with misinformation
  4. Sellers emailing with lower priced same, like items to get a sale.
  5. WIERDOS and NUTCASES who can contact just anyone they wish for any reason even unrelated to ebay.

  The list goes on and on.

  Personally, I do NOT want any contact from anyone that I am not engaged in a transaction with. I only bid on items I research PRIOR to bidding, ask questions and deal with sellers who deal mainly in that particular item. If I don`t follow my own advise SHAME ON ME.

  I`ve run across fraud auctions in the past and REPORTED THEM .... NOT BOUGHT THE DOG GONE FAKE just to prove a stupid point by pounding my chest and demanding the fraud seller send me the real thing when I know he doesn`t and never did have it.

  If buyers educate themselves and NO ONE bids on items that are questionable the junk won`t get sold and the fraud sellers will extinct themselves. Buying a FAKE INTENTIONALLY KNOWING IT IS A FAKE ... like the OP did ..... is just as wrong as the THIEF SELLER he bought from. They deserve each other.

  tasart55 (113 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 11:52 PST 137 of

  Here are two sites that are dedicated to bead education, the one has subsections including, BEAD ID, MISREPRESENTATION, NATIVE AMERICAN....all of them deal with fraud and fraud detection, puiblic awareness, exposing fraud internet auctions ETC.

  I support both Forums and am a frequent poster, all of the major bead museums have members as frequent contributors as well as bead book authors and the like. I speak for myself when I say this is an uphill battle....for every 5 exposed 20 new ones crawl out of the gutter!

  I'll keep on exposing what I can in the hopes that some get caught.

  tasart55 (113 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 11:59 PST 138 of

  Unfortunately ebay wouldn't let me link to the sites, so here is the alternative: nationalbeadsociety dot org, or, beadcollector dot net forward slash openforum, maybe this will work!

  dag*nab*it (294 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 12:18 PST 139 of

  There is a new forum available for Reviews and Buying Guides. http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum.jspa?forumID=1000000017

  I am not sure what the requirements are for submitting but this may be a place to put information about spotting real from repro beads. It may be worthwhile for those concerned about the fraud in this area to check it out.

  threegigs (126 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 15:33 PST 140 of

  I find ebay has a responsibility to police itself to an extent

  Yes, it does. No one is disputing *that*.

  I find the "blind eye" by ebay to be one of the greatest injustices of all

  You have to realize something here. eBay needs proof. Plain and simple. Not that they really need proof, because as soon as any one of you manages to get these sellers in court *and win*, they won't be selling any more.

  But since they've never been convicted of a crime, they are not criminals, in eBay's eyes.

  Remember that. They are innocent until proven guilty.

  all_fakes (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 18:37 PST 141 of

  I do have some hints on recognition of fakes on my "me" pages, dealing mostly with native wood items, and resin; I know zero about beads. I'm going to see if ebay will accept a guide.

  And I'll repeat the suggestion that a comment section could be added to the native reporting form one finds at http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/artifacts.html; when one enters a listing number, (depending how you count) there are 30 to 50 possible violations and crimes that could be involved.

  plasticrap (0 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 19:41 PST 142 of

  to all_fakes: Beads are a no-brainer in the Nat Am section if you know the beads you're looking at. Lithics are a lot harder, but there are people out there who find this as easy as I find beads and who will also be able to spot the logical fallacies.

  threegigs: Quit clammering for "proof" and court decisions. eBay has policies that will serve the purpose. What? Get a court to force eBay to enforce its policies? Please. They're criminals, okay? They're knowingly misrepping merchandise and eBay is profiting from the scams. You don't need a court decision against you to be a criminal, now do you? Get on the same page, okay?

  bead-collector (772 ) View Listings | Report Dec-31-05 20:39 PST of

  All_fakes, I like your approach. I don't sell on eBay that much any more, but whenever I do, I include at least one auction of some of the most widely misrepresented beads on eBay, as a "fyi" for the few who read it. They always sell, of course, and possibly to folks who will turn around and misrep them themselves.I have no control over that, but I can inform people with these auctions.

  Here's a recent link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=50490186&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&rd=1

  Also, one can find a misrepped item and drop in a new auction with correct info to end one second after the fake one, and title it to bring attention to it. Problem with the Czech white heart beads is that I am the only one I know of on eBay selling them as what they are. I start them at 6.99 and they often sell by fraud sellers at 18.00 and up. I have informed many sellers of their misrepresentation of these beads and many others. The response is mixed. About a third ignore the correspondence completely, a third act beligerent and tell me THEY know more about beads than I do, and about a third appreciate the info and correct their auction.

  I bought my first trade bead in 1974, and I have been involved with beads passionately now since the early 1980s. Buying, selling, producing and selling bead jewelry, six years selling trade beads on eBay. Between tasart, plasticrap and myself, there are easily 80 combined years in beads. We know each other, not in an in-person sense, but with mutual postings on bead forums, emails, transactions, and numerous phone conversations.

  The white hearts auction / problem is only one of many in the bead area of ebay. It's just an easy example to provide. The big potatoes fraud in beads is in the ancient category, with items marketed as "Phoenician Head" pendant beads, thought (by a very reputable and knowledgeable international dealer) to be currently made in Syria for the fakes market.

  I can provide a whole list of fraud sellers, feel free to contact me privately, as I doubt eBay would permit listing here.

  One of the fraud sellers is one of eBay's darlings and on his auctions, boasts sitting at the "eBay table" at some special awards banquet. That seller, like many fraud sellers of beads, is in the U.K. He cleans up on fake ancient items.

  Anyway, we talk about this stuff all the time. We can't contact the ignorant bidders, but we can get the word out to some extent.

  Joyce

  orange_cape_hides_me (Private ) View Listings | Report Jan-01-06 02:04 PST 144 of

  One of the fraud sellers is one of eBay's darlings and on his auctions, boasts sitting at the "eBay table" at some special awards banquet. That seller, like many fraud sellers of beads, is in the U.K. He cleans up on fake ancient items.

  Did this same seller also used to sell Pool Tables by any chance? Caped~

  dag*nab*it (294 ) View Listings | Report Jan-01-06 05:15 PST 145 of

  http://search.reviews.ebay.com/_Bead-Art_W0QQucatZ31723QQuqtZg

  I don't see any guides available on antique beads. Maybe this is an area you and your friends could choose to make a contribution to by writing something up bead-collector.

  bead-collector (772 ) View Listings | Report Jan-01-06 09:25 PST 146 of

  There were over 600,000 different bead designs made in Europe for the African trade alone. This area differs greatly from stamp collecting and coin collecting. The Picards ( of the Picard Trade Bead Museum - they have a well established presence on the net) estimate that they have documented approx. 20% of the beads from the African trade, and this has been their life's work for the last 35 years. Glass bead making in Europe was done by an illiterate secret society - so there is no written documentation, only what can be determined by careful research.Some manufacturer sample cards survive from slightly over a century ago.

  There are numerous good references out in the past 20 years, even reaching back to ancient beads, but all of them combined give us only a fraction of the beads in existence.

  plasticrap (0 ) View Listings | Report Jan-01-06 22:46 PST 147 of

  So! nbspolice still has received no response to the question: What will eBay do now?

  Chronic known fraud listers who have been reported hundreds of times to eBay "did not deliver what was described." The appropriate complaint forms were completed and it's now been about two weeks. No response from eBay. Refunds are not acceptable.

  Everyone agrees this type of fraud is occurring all over eBay, probably with the same non-resolution. eBay rents venue space to known criminal offenders and profits from their criminal activities. eBay has a number of policies and practices that aid and abet these criminals and hides behind a bunch of transparent excuses for what amounts to negligence and racketeering. Let's not review the same tired apologies any more. Buyers are being ripped off by the thousands and millions and honest sellers are being crowded out and frustrated.

  One more thing: That clown notion about trying to eliminate competition through this nbspolice action is total nonsense. Clearly somebody needs to read up a little bit on free-market capitalism. Competition is what makes it all work and these fraud sellers are welcome to sell their items in their correct categories and with accurate titles and descriptions.

  Watch out, nbspolice! The bouncers and enforcers will soon find an excuse to throw you out of their venue. You're just not "safe and fun" anymore!

  148-153 are jp's

  plasticrap (0 ) View Listings | Report Jan-02-06 01:41 PST 154 of

  They won't need an excuse. Your initial post (#41 in this very thread) shows you and nb to be one and the same. Continuing to talk to yourself not only reduces your credibility, but is asking for board sanctions.

  I'm sure! You haven't yet figured it out, have you? How's your Spanish, coulda?

  I'm sure you started here frustrated but well meaning. It would be a shame to see you spiral out of control like so many others with the same issues have in the past.

  Sorry, Pal! I haven't just started here (what's "here"?) and I'm probably less bored and frustrated than you board "leaders" are. There's nothing spinning out of control from my end. eBay is out of control. My role here is to expose eBay hypocrisy and seller fraud, not get help. And, please, let's not talk about choirs anymore. I'll leave it to you Community volunteers to hold hands with victims. Why do they even have this board? eBay is exploiting you if you're volunteering to help people adjust to or deal with failed, ambiguous, unfair, and unenforced eBay "Trust & Safety" policies, not to mention a complaint system that doesn't work and isn't designed to work. eBay must be laughing at you people.

  "Let's set up some chat boards so do-gooders can volunteer and pretend to help people. In this way, we won't have to hire anyone and, of course, these groupies will enforce all of our bogus policies that protect criminals who pay us fees."

  Who's bored here, you or me? And the solution is really rather simple, isn't it? My approach is to attack, not cuddle up.

  couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Jan-02-06 03:57 PST 155 of

  I'm sure! You haven't yet figured it out, have you? There's nothing to figure out. You used up your 10 daily posts for one ID, and made up another. When advised that this wasn't allowed, you foolishly started babbling to yourself.

  There's nothing spinning out of control from my end. Anyone who's been around this board for a while has seen this dozens of times: starts with a pretty good rant, but when everyone doesn't rush out to pat the poster on the back, we get the "apologist/do-gooder/clique" nonsense, the multiple personality disorder, the "haven't figured it out yet" baloney, and so on.

  Usually about now we see the "I'm flooded with emails from people that support me" blather as well. In the good ol' days before posting IDs were common, there was often auction interference thrown in for good measure.

  Eventually, the poster usually breaks enough board rules to get sanctioned, and sometimes enough interfering to get suspended. I have no doubt they then feel martyred for their cause, rather than booted for their behavior.

  My role here is to expose eBay hypocrisy and seller fraud

  No problem; that's done here every day, and often with even more attitude... I'm just suggesting you follow the posting rules so you can keep doing so.

  bead-collector (772 ) View Listings | Report Jan-02-06 06:04 PST 156 of

  Please laieh, don't say nbspolice and bead-collector in the same breath,

  My wifes origanal post was as beadpolice not nbspolice.

  Be very careful.

  157-160 jp bead-collector (772 ) View Listings | Report Jan-02-06 08:28 PST 161 of

  Please let us clarify our identity. We are Joyce and David. We have created an on-line bead collector network that has been on the net for 3 1/2 years called Bead Collector Network. Google bead collecting. This forum has evolved into a nice-sized group of registered users, about 250, from all over the world. We have members who are published authors and researchers, museum owners and curators, degrees in glass making, and well-known international dealers and importers and exporters. The knowledge and experience in collectible beads that this group possesses and has access to is unique, totaling experience in the multiples of thousands of years.

  Our eBay selling id is bead-collector.

  Our very first post here was with an alternate id, beadpolice. The reason - we were not sure at first whether we may want to give our actual identity.

  Being a small community, we know the identity of plasticrap, and we do recognize his authority on African beads and the work that he has done in Africa. But we recognize that he has his own genius, but can be a bit of a loose cannon.

  I am going out for the rest of the day. In closing, I will ask you to please forgive us for using the id beadpolice in the first post we made here.

  Thank you,

  Joyce and David
  bead-collector

  big-floyd (87 ) View Listings | Report Jan-02-06 08:30 PST 162 of

  Here is to the person whom complained about wanting what they won and not a refund. And here is to all the others that gave a sarcastic reply and no doubt in cohoots with the ones that are frauding every honest buyer on this net. I say that EBAY should be SHUT DOWN until they have these issues resolved. It is very clear that EBAY is condoning these operations with the people that are not scrutinized for identification and integrity prior to them ever operating on EBAY. They are letting criminals, felons, just plain no good people sell fake or rotten goods and advertise them to be perfect. These sellers know that their feedback does not matter. EBAY should make it a point to shut down any IP address if and when it is said that that individual is scamming. Their servor should be made aware of this and shut them out of ebay. If this was implemented then it would remove lots of these scammers. Many would go to libraries and scam from them but that can be controlled to. We need IP POLICE that will definitely get to the bottom. It is real easy to say just send the item back, but who loses is the one that bought it still in terms of wasted time, gas, wear and tear, postage. So, this is not addressed by ebay. EBAY should protect the buyer if the seller is found out to be a frauderster, otherwise if EBAY cannot get rid of that mentality and ther other mentalities that go along with that activity with the idea of "take the money and run." Well, anyone that condones the wrong is just like the fraudsters and if I were them I would not look like a fool and post such as to condone illegal acitivity. It just shows that they are either fools, or defending the con-artist. Hear that all of you? I am talking to all that posted on this dicussion board defending EBAY, SAFE HARBOR, PAYPAL, and any one attached to anyone of the above that will not go out and show the world how EBAY does handle these kind of individuals. It is easy for EBAY to have a scam operator to gender millions of dollars to EBAY and then get shut down. Does EBAY lose their commisssion? I do not think so. I think they are looking like it was being orchestrated until I can see results from them on this issue. Just look at the foreign sites and how they are now scamming. I know of one man that bought a 1907 20 dollar double gold eagle coin that was plated for 500 plus dollars. What happened to him,----

  couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Jan-02-06 08:48 PST 163 of

  no doubt in cohoots with the ones that are frauding every honest buyer on this net.

  It's hard to take you seriously when you start off with nonsense like that. But assuming you just got caught up in a rant like most of us do, the fact of the matter is that the only way eBay can eliminate scam artists is to shut down completely. There are a few million users who would not like that, and who try to act responsibly to avoid being defrauded.

  164jp

  laieh (46 ) View Listings | Report Jan-02-06 10:59 PST 165 of

  Humblest of apologies to bead collector, with the OP's comments about feedback score and total feedback I jumped to some erroneous and tired at conclusions that obviously didn't add up. I have reported my post. Please accept my sincere apology.

  nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Jan-02-06 12:56 PST 1 of

  Buenos dias a todos los miembros de este grupo: Mi nombre es Angela y soy la esposa de plasticrap, ingles es mi segundo lenguaje. Yo le he permitido a mi esposo escribir en mi representacion en este "chat", y si eso ha creado alguna confusion, reciban mis disculpas. No quise ser discriminada por no usar correctamente el lenguaje ingles ya que no soy fluente en este idioma. Tenemos suficientes problemas al momento con las fraudulentas compras hechas en eBay.

  Angela

  167-168jp

  itsmyfault33 (Private ) View Listings | Report Jan-02-06 13:25 PST 169 of

  I am not fluent in Spanish It is fair at best. However ..................

  Re: post #1

  Good day to all the members of this group.
  My name is Angela and I'm the wife of plasticrap.
  English is my second language. I let my husband use my ID in the "chat" and if that has caused confusion I apologize.
  I don't want to be discriminated against for incorrect use of English because I'm not fluent. We have enough problems right now with fraudulent purchases done on eBay.

  You have more problems than fraudulent auctions or fluency in either English or Spanish.

  170- jp

  nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Jan-02-06 14:19 PST 171 of

  This thread flatlined about 100 posts ago. In summary, you people are more worried about sleuthing IDs than sticking to topics.

  We got beat by known criminals who didn't deliver what's impossible to deliver anyway. Despite hundreds of complaints to eBay, nothing was ever done to control or eliminate the policy violations cum fraud of these sellers. The complaint system was used again to report actual fraud. As usual, no response from eBay. That's the story and the problem and the dilemma for eBay.

  So, instead of talking about the subject and question of this thread, you community volunteers start worrying about IDs, profanity (there was none), and Spanish keyboards.

  The Buckeyes are playing now -- go ND!

  172-174are jp's

  bead-collector (772 ) View Listings | Report Jan-02-06 16:18 PST 175 of

  Back on subject....

  I've been around since the Arpanet and remember when eBays' identity was that of a small community. Now, eBay has taken on a corporate identity and has lost that sense of community. We should accept the fact eBay is no longer small enough to be even a town or a city. With a user population that is equal to that of a fair sized country, it has taken on a lot of the same problems as many governments have.

  eBay has to take on the roll as a central government and let the communities have more control in policing them selves. The communities lines can be drawn along the same lines as the categories and sub categories. Appoint board members from the communities that have specific knowledge related to their community.

  David

  176-177 are jp's

  nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Jan-02-06 20:13 PST 178 of

  To laieh #168: Please ask for a refund from your Spanish teacher, unless you still want what was decribed in the course catalog.

  To charm #167: Always be careful when you allow someone to speak for you. Your "husband" has not done a very good job of it.

  What are you talking about? Are you on the correct thread?

  To itsmyfault33 #169: You have more problems than fraudulent auctions or fluency in either English or Spanish.

  Si, yo tengo otro problema mas y es el desperdiciar mi tiempo conversando con gente de mente cuadrada como la suya...

  To charm #170: Para su informacion, nosotros no necesitamos usar acentos o tildes en conversaciones informales y no voy a configurar el programa de teclado cada vez que necesito escribir un par de oraciones en espanol...finalmente Ingles es el lenguaje oficial de este pais y si quiero comunicarme con la mayoria tengo que hacerlo en ese idioma.

  To charm #172: We're not berating anyone except eBay hypocrites and fraud sellers. Why are you on the defensive?

  To itsmyfault33 No. 173: If you knew were dealing with criminals, what does that say about you? Could it mean ------ vigilante?

  Shame on us! Let's just call it "community volunteerism". We think stinging fraud sellers and exposing holes in eBay policies is community service. We like educating people. We need a new chat board where all innocent buyers who fell into the shadows in the well-lit venue can post sellers' names when they don't get what they bargained for and when eBay just ignores the problem.

  To coulda No. 174: Each of us has an ID and one doesn't write English well. Do you have a problem with that? We bid on auctions that violoted eBay policies. Is there a policy that says we can't bid on such auctions? I thought not. But if there is, eBay now needs to sweep through and cancel thousands and thousands of bids that have been placed on such auctions. We just love the hypocrisy!

  To bead-collector #175: Great and interesting suggestion! That would be "role" (sorry, no accent), not "roll".

  To tunatofu #176 and other philistines: We got beat by known crimninals. It's happened millions of times to people for years. eBay does nothing. eBay protects these people in a variety of ways. Immovable? Fine!

  We want what was described or action taken against the criminals. QED

  big-floyd #162: Right on! Let's promote one of those vote-type boards, Yes or No: "Have you ever bought something in good faith and not received what was described and then found out that eBay could give a rancid bag of tripe? Yes or No?

  Hasta la vista, see ya next Easta!

  179-207 are jp

  couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Jan-03-06 11:04 PST 208 of

  eBay has to take on the roll as a central government and let the communities have more control in policing them selves.

  bead-collector - I'm not sure this thread can ever get back on course, but that is a way to change things for the better. If your community is willing to take on the responsibilty, and you can develop solid guidelines for what sorts of items can/should be removed, by all means take it up with eBay. If you leave the Multiple Personality Vigilantes at home that day, eBay may well take you seriously. You'd also want to discuss any legal liability for pulling auctions incorrectly.

  As mentioned earlier, eBay made such an arrangement in the Stamps area some time ago. If you think your community would be interested in taking on such a challenge, perhaps contacting someone in that area would be useful.

  I wonder if Dan could help you get connected there?

  You are also hopefully aware of legal options you have against the sellers, starting with complaints to their state's consumer affairs office and the FTC. Victims that are actually defrauded can also file small claims actions.

  Good luck...

  imcollectordan (Private ) View Listings | Report Jan-03-06 12:07 PST 209 of

  Coulda

  I've delved a little back to when Stamp fraud was a big problem. As far as I can see, we all signed an online petition and then emailed that together with details of the problems that were being faced, to Rob Chesnut.

  http://laplaza.org./~1covers/ebayemails.htm

  The link below shows a small portion of the correspondence, together with a link to the petition. I can only surmise that Rob took it up with the APS ( American Philatelic Society ) who now, as far as I am aware, has one or two people actively monitoring any auctions that are reported to Ebay. Obviously they do not have the item reported in hand but will, if they are in doubt of the item, recommend to Ebay that they remove it upon investigation by the APS into either the item or, if enough complaints, then the seller involved.

  Having said that, identifying forged stamps is a lot easier by looking at scans / photos, than looking at other antiquities. Many of this type of item would have to be looked at in person. I would doubt whether Ebay would want to get involved in taking auctions down that there was no solid proof as to the authenticity of the item, but I may be mistaken depending on the kind of proof that could be offered to Ebay.

  I also believe that it took at least 6 months for the APS to become fully .involved and, even now, they only get to take action on a fraction of the auctions submitted for their judgement.

  Â Dan the stamp man

  couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Jan-03-06 12:14 PST 210 of

  Having said that, identifying forged stamps is a lot easier by looking at scans / photos, than looking at other antiquities.

  Thanks, Dan. It would seem like this could apply to the OP's main complaint: items that just plain don't exist historically. If the members of the bead community feel this is a significant problem, they might be able to get some action in that limited area. I agree that nobody is likely to get the power to shut down auctions that claim to be authenticate articles but aren't.

  hermine_93 (18 ) View Listings | Report Jan-03-06 14:53 PST 211 of

  In very small words for those who obviously need them: If eBay does not know who the "fraudster" is, how do you propose that this unknown "fraudster" by held accountable?

  The OP was saying ebay should close accounts after multiple (that means "lots of") fraud reports from different users and, while I agree, that wasn't my point.

  I am not saying that e bay should close an account of a fraudster they do not know about.

  I am saying that ebay has lots of policies that help fraudsters and that ebay knows this.

  Like not having decent trust and safety response.

  Like the interference policy. (interference policy means where they won't let people warn buyers about bad sellers)

  Like advertising safety. See, that's the big weakness in ebay's pretense of just being a venue. Ebay advertises safety and advertising something you don't provide is a crime.

  Like telling buyers to be patient up until day 59 and not telling them about the deadline. Thus, helping scammers run out the clock, thus being accessories after the fact through active actions.

  That last one is going to put someone at ebay in jail for sure.

  212 jp

  couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Jan-03-06 14:59 PST 213 of

  Like not having decent trust and safety response.

  There you are 100% correct.

  Like the interference policy. (interference policy means where they won't let people warn buyers about bad sellers)

  The policy is in place to protect legitimate sellers from the crooks and the wackos. If you can think of a way to protect the good guys without protecting everybody, let ebay know.

  Like advertising safety.

  Where exactly does eBay advertise safety? And what do they say about it?

  Like telling buyers to be patient up until day 59 and not telling them about the deadline.

  eBay does no such thing; filing deadlines are plainly posted in the protection policies.

  hermine_93 (18 ) View Listings | Report Jan-03-06 15:13 PST 214 of

  "safe and fun" and "safe, well-lit marketplace" both contain the word safe. The advertising of buyer protection and the provision of a service that is almost never usable also borders on criminal false advertising.

  As for the deadline: How many people get caught every day by the deadline trap and come here? Now that number probably represents about 1/10 of 1% of all the people who get caught in it. Most people don't use the help forums most places and on ebay, the help forums are so unpleasant that that number is going to be worse.

  If you dig, and know what you're looking for, and slog through the entire policy, then yeah, you can find the deadline. IF YOU KNOW TO LOOK FOR A DEADLINE AND KNOW NOT TO TRUST TRUST AND SAFETY'S ADVICE!

  However, ebay's response to emails to trust and safety is ALWAYS to be patient and NEVER mentions the deadline and that's CRIMINAL, not just negligence but actually accessory after the fact.

  I've half a mind to go to the FTC.

  hermine_93 (18 ) View Listings | Report Jan-03-06 20:04 PST 218 of

  FTC= Federal Trade Commission. They're the people that will bust companies like ebay that falsely advertise. Were you confused? Wouldn't be surprised.

  up to are junk posts

  imcollectordan (Private ) View Listings | Report Jan-04-06 06:14 PST 232 of

  Hermine - They're the people that will bust companies like ebay that falsely advertise. Were you confused? Wouldn't be surprised.

  Ebay does not advertise, the sellers who list on it do.

  hermine_93 (18 ) View Listings | Report Jan-04-06 08:20 PST 233 of

  Ebay advertises safety. Ebay is not safe. Get it?

  Ebay has enough money to buy custom legislation calling it a venue. Doesn't make it so and I don't think the venue interpretation will last, given that ebay, while you can BY SLOGGING THROUGH THE ENTIRE POLICY, find the deadline, gives fraud victims deliberate bad advice, telling them to be patient in the trust and safety emails. When ebay gets involved in the transaction in such a way, then ebay's venue status becomes a bit more questionable.

  As for the user agreement: Look, I can say that my restaurant has the right to serve you poo burgers, but that doesn't make it legal. I think ebay's venue lie will not last.

  couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Jan-04-06 09:53 PST 234 of

  Ebay advertises safety.

  Again, feel free to show where eBay does this. Googling up the key phrase that you and the OP seem to be stuck on, I find many references to:

  "Creating a safe, well lit marketplace is priority #1 for eBay's Trust & Safety team"

  You will note that this is found on several eBay support pages, is not advertising, and is very plainly not saying the job is done.

  Ebay has enough money to buy custom legislation calling it a venue.

  eBay had no money when the Act was passed in 1996.

  BY SLOGGING THROUGH THE ENTIRE POLICY

  You should get in the habit of slogging through policies if you want them to protect you.

  telling them to be patient in the trust and safety emails

  I've never seen such an email; got one to share?

  hermine_93 (18 ) View Listings | Report Jan-04-06 11:59 PST 235 of

  Here is an excerpt from an email received on an issue of a non-selling seller:

  I understand your concern in this situation. Sometimes problems do arise in completing an eBay transaction with your seller. In these situations, I encourage you to maintain an open, professional dialogue with the seller and to do whatever you can to resolve the issues. I've found that one of the best ways to come to a mutually beneficial agreement with your seller is to give the seller a telephone call. You can obtain a seller's phone number by clicking the link below:

  http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQtZvbQQsofindtypeZ9

  This was the exact same response I got every time I wrote. This came after about the 10th time I had told them the seller was not responding to phone calls. It was several weeks after the transaction and they continued urging patience until the seller was NARU'd. I've also seen here, as I'm sure you have as well, if you've spent any time here, many, many, many people who were urged to be patient BY TRUST AND SAFETY until the deadline expired.

  The deadline is hidden in fine print and the advice given by trust and safety is always to be patient. In the email from trust and safety, which is what most people rely on, is NO INFO ABOUT THE DEADLINE AND THE WORST POSSIBLE ADVICE.

  Neither that email nor any other that I have ever received from the criminally misnamed "trust and safety" department contained any information about the deadline.

  Renting property to fraud sellers is one thing. Telling a victim of one of your tenants to be patient and helping to stall them until they can't do a chargeback is another.

  Frankly, if I'm not sure what to do, I go and check the policy. However, if ebay tells me everything's fine, I'm a lot less likely to do so. The first thing I did when I had my problem with a seller was ask ebay's trust and safety what to do. If I had gotten ripped off, that would have led to me being totally screwed and the scamster getting away because ebay's trust and safety department deliberately gives fraud victims bad advice and helps fraudsters run out the clock.

  236 jp

  hermine_93 (18 ) View Listings | Report Jan-04-06 12:38 PST 237 of

  Are you being deliberately obtuse #236? If you want another example of ebay giving people bad advice in T&S situations, then try reading this forum.

  I'm not the only one ebay's told to be patient; I'm not the only one that's gotten these emails. Ebay's policy is never to mention the deadline until after a report's been filed or the deadline's expired. Ebay's policy is to tell people to be patient until the deadline expires. Therefore, eBay is a criminal organization.

  But if you want to keep your head firmly rammed up your...fantasy world, then fine. Personally, I am moved to ask, when have you ever posted anything helpful? All you seem to do is insult people who come here for help.

  hermine_93 (18 ) View Listings | Report Jan-04-06 12:40 PST 238 of

  P.S. That paragraph is unequivocal enough. I'm not slogging through another email archive to tell you what you already know again. Have fun pretending everything's happy. I don't care anymore.

  orange_cape_hides_me (Private ) View Listings | Report Jan-04-06 12:45 PST 239 of

  Hermine - the deadlines are clearly specified in the User Agreement, as well as the protections that Ebay affords, and the limit to what they can do in the USER AGREEMENT that every user agrees to when they open their accounts.

  It is the user's responsibility to read that document before they agree to the terms.

  It is not Ebay's responsibility to REMIND you of the terms that you have agreed to.

  However seeing how strongly you feel, I wish you the best of luck in your lawsuit against Ebay. Please keep us advised on your progress with that.

  Respectfully, Caped~

  hermine_93 (18 ) View Listings | Report Jan-04-06 12:50 PST 240 of

  I'm not suing ebay, because I don't make major purchases on ebay. I simply said that the victim should do so.

  You really ought to look at who's saying what.

  It is ebay's responsibility not to deliberately give misleading bad advice to fraud victims, which is, in fact, what ebay does.

  241-242 jp

  couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Jan-04-06 14:17 PST 243 of

  This was the exact same response I got every time I wrote. All I can say is if you're going to suggest people sue eBay, it would be better if the grounds for such a suit were based in reality. eBay apparently didn't EVER tell you to be patient, and you've provided no current advertising where eBay claims to be safe.

  There ARE valid ebay/paypal issues that I think could be addressed by filing complaints and even lawsuits, but these don't appear to be among them.

  gumball68 (492 ) View Listings | Report Jan-04-06 18:04 PST 244 of

  >Ebay does not advertise, the sellers who list on it do.br> This doesn't really have anything to do with anything (mainly because I can't for the life of me figure out what this conversation is about now), but Ebay does advertise.

  I got a "catalog" from them a couple of weeks before Christmas.

  hermine_93 (18 ) View Listings | Report Jan-04-06 18:10 PST 245 of

  If you want to see what ebay's policy is, email trust and safety about a problem with seller. There are numerous posts today of people that ebay has helped fraudsters to string along past the deadline. Some of whom you've personally showed up and insulted without contributing anything useful.

  I'm not going to respond to you anymore, though I will renew my requests that you be banned because you are both unhelpful and rude.

  hermine_93 (18 ) View Listings | Report Jan-04-06 18:12 PST 246 of

  Ebay advertises buyer protection and then uses misleading and underhanded tactics to avoid paying claims. Ebay advertises a trust and safety department that's interested in making the community safe.

  YOU ARE OBLIGATED TO PROVIDE WHAT YOU ADVERTISE.

  247- jp's

  nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Jan-05-06 16:48 PST 252 of

  In summary, nothing has been done and it doesn't look like anything will be done. Thanks to all of you who are sympathetic to this situation and understand that it's happening thousands of times a day.

  As for the rest of you, thanks for finding all of eBay's pretexts and excuses for non-performance, not one of which is legitimate. It would all make a great three-act play.

  Fact is, we want what was described. No one delivered. And eBay ignored it all. Thanks, eBay!

  253-255 jp

  dimesy1 (0 ) View Listings | Report Jan-05-06 21:37 PST 256 of

  I have to disagree with the thinking that eBay is "only a venue", akin to a parking lot where a flea market is held.

  This is how eBay defines its "only a venue" status:

  Q: What does "eBay is only a venue" mean?

  A. eBay is an exciting electronic marketplace where you can buy and sell to your heart's content. However, eBay does not ultimately participate in the transaction between buyer and seller, verify that items are genuine, or guarantee that you will receive payment or auction items. eBay is very concerned about your safety and offers the services of third parties that can provide authentication, insurance, and escrow for your transactions.

  If eBay is in fact "only a venue" that “does not ultimately participate in the transaction�, it follows that eBay would

  -- be uninvolved in the payment method decision
  -- play no role in the payment transaction itself
  -- earn revenue from listing ('booth') and 'entry' (buyer) fees, not a cut of the sale
  -- take no role in the dispute resolution process
  -- make no promise to enable anyone to "buy with confidence". Caveat emptor.

  eBay chants the "only a venue" mantra when it benefits eBay to do so, which invariably involves an attempt to indemnify itself against liability. It conveniently ignores the reasonable expectations of its customers, who know that in practice, eBay is something other than "only" a place where goods are bought and sold.

  eBay is either a "venue" with little involvement and oversight of transactions, or it's a "community", with all of the shared responsibilities that go along with being a community member.

  eBay gets in trouble by trying to play it down the middle so it can enjoy the advantages of both, while avoiding the responsibilities of either.

  It injects itself into the sales process in as many ways as it can, to increase revenue. It claims on one hand that its programs protect users, so it can create an environment of trust that will further increase its revenue.

  Yet on the other hand, it reveals that protection to be largely illusory, by denying responsibility when that trust is breached and vigorously avoiding the use of as much of that revenue as it can get away with, by limiting the protection it claims to afford.

  If eBay was "only a venue", it would look a lot like this: http://www.craigslist.org

  257jp

  dimesy1 (0 ) View Listings | Report Jan-05-06 22:14 PST 259 of

  Uh, not exactly.

  In March 2005, eBay, PayPal, and an eBay seller were sued in Supreme Court of the State of New York, County of Kings (No. 6125/05) in a purported class action alleging that certain disclosures regarding PayPal’s Buyer Protection Policy, users’ chargeback rights, and the effects of users’ choice of funding mechanism are deceptive and/or misleading.

  The complaint alleged misrepresentation on the part of eBay and PayPal, breach of contract and deceptive trade practices by PayPal, and that PayPal and eBay have jointly violated the civil RICO statute (18 U.S.C. Section 1961(4)).

  In April 2005, eBay and PayPal removed the case to the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of New York and the plaintiffs filed an amended complaint in the U.S. District Court (No. 05-CV-01720) repeating the allegations of the initial complaint but dropping the civil RICO allegations.

  The complaint seeks injunctive relief, compensatory damages, and punitive damages. The parties agreed to stay further proceedings pending a mediation hearing, which took place in July 2005. The parties are continuing mediation discussions, though the stay of proceedings has expired. We believe that eBay and PayPal have meritorious defenses and intend to defend ourselves vigorously.

  That's from eBay's October 2005 quarterly report to the SEC.

  Check the 10K when it's released on the 18th for an update, but if you want to see just how many other class action lawsuits are currently pending against eBay that allege violations far beyond what would be charged against "only a venue", take a look at the rest of the laundry list on the most recent 10Q.

  http://investor.ebay.com/Edgar.cfm?DocType=Annual,Quarterly&Year=

  orange_cape_hides_me (Private ) View Listings | Report Jan-05-06 22:33 PST 261 of

  And that's the point in a nutshell. Many of us do NOT disagree about what is going on with Ebay, the problems, etc. As was stated earlier, you're talking to the choir.

  However the board posters live in the hear and now when we offer advice.

  Anyone can challenge Ebay in a court of law. Please do, I mean it.

  However until that challenge is successful the current decision is that eBay is a VENUE.

  I think it's not beneficial to rant and rave until the (maybe inevitable) happens ... I'll wait for that day while abiding by the Ebay rules, and when and if that day occurs, I'll be in the cheering crowd.

  Caped~

  couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Jan-05-06 22:47 PST 2 of

  a purported class action alleging that certain disclosures regarding PayPal’s Buyer Protection Policy, users’ chargeback rights, and the effects of users’ choice of funding mechanism are deceptive and/or misleading.

  This lawsuit isn't a "venue" issue - nor are most of the other US suits against eBay - at least not those that get off the ground. This suit is about eBay's own actions; the "safe harbor" clause basically protects ISPs from being sued over the actions of others.

  couldabeenworse (104 ) View Listings | Report Jan-05-06 22:56 PST 268 of

  The aformentioned suit was brought against PayPal, was it not?

  If we're talking about post 259, the suit was initially brought against ebay, paypal and an ebay seller.

  nbspolice (0 ) View Listings | Report Jan-05-06 23:33 PST 270 of

  Welcome to the Trust & Safety (SafeHarbor) Discussion Board! This board is for eBay members to learn more about Trust & Safety initiatives from other community members with the support of eBay staff.

  eBay wrote the 10Q report. Does anyone have a list of the private initiatives and groups that are forming up, the ones that don't get mentioned in the 10Q? Such a list should be tacked to the top of this chat board.

  eBay writes the site policies. The policies are selectively enforced and many actually violate people's basic rights. eBay profits from known criminal activity and gives the bum's rush to little guys who get beat, such as us.

  "We want what was described." Against policy to bid on known bogus auctions? What? You can only bid on bogus auctions that you don't know are bogus? And if so, can you only expect protection if you get "cheated fair and square", so to speak? But then, bogus auctions that are reported, but don't get canceled, must not be bogus, right? eBay says it's okay after review, right? (Read form letter.)

  1. Form letter comes back saying, in effect, it's not bogus, even when policy violations are slapping you in the face, such as KWS.
  2. Not bogus? Bid on the auction, win, and pay.
  3. Get the stuff; have it authenticated; find out it's bogus.
  4. File eBay complaint, get blown off again.

  This board is for eBay members to learn more about Trust & Safety initiatives from other community members with the support of eBay staff. Where's Gizmo to support us with eBay T & S initiatives?

  We got beat by fraud sellers. We want what was described. What's eBay going to do now?

  Thanks, dimesy! There have been a few thoughtful posts in the thread. I like the financials too! This ain't the airline industry, now is it?

  up to 283 jp

  ---

  abbreviations for many ebay terms

  Index page

  Updates page-contains any major updates after 6/8/04