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Email 1: Your raptureready article (From Tony to David) 7/23/03

RE: Your raptureready article (From Tony to David) 8/10/03

Email 2: link (From Tony to David) 8/19/03

Email 3: Shift link (From Tony to David) 9/08/03

RE: Shift link (From Tony to David) 9/23/03

Email 4: I'm here! (From to Tony to David) 10/14/03

Email 5: Magog thoughts (From Tony to David) 10/15/03

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2003 To: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> | Subject: Your raptureready article From: "Tony Burtovoy" <[email protected]>

Thanks for the article you put up on RaptureReady.com about earthquakes coinciding with Rapture:

http://www.raptureready.com/soap/rapture_eq.html

..I am awestruck to begin finding like-minded people who are reaching similar conclusions as I have begun to reach lately. Of course, something big will coincide with Rapture.. it makes perfect sense that we will "not be expecting Rapture" because of massive distraction. It also neatly explains the big mystery of why America is not an end-times player.. she is devastated by massive events.. perhaps more powerful in N. America due to the greater concentration of Raptured Christians there? Could the 6th seal of Revelation 6 be this event.. where the crust of the Earth actually slips? Such a massive event would certainly render our satellite-dependent and technology-dependent military severely hamstrung as GPS and other systems would no longer work (I suppose). Could the great multitude of Rev 7 be a picture of the Raptured saints? (odd how these two pictures in Rev 6 and Rev 7 are chronologically right next to each other). How easy it would be for the world to unite politically after such devastation! Who would oppose it?? How easy it would be to dismiss (rather than explain) missing people! ..of course there are missing people in such a disaster! Anyone who might have "seen" someone vanish was just delusional or mistaken! How easy it will be for the magog coalition (thereafter) to advance thru the middle east with America so severely maimed! Perhaps the remnants of the US armies occupying the middle east at that time will be overrun and obliterated? ..so much so that the remaining portion of the US mainland must submit to UN protection and troops as a measure of protection from invasion?

Once again.. thank you for bringing up this corroborative evidence that I persoanlly had not noticed until I read your article. Awesome.

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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:49:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> | Subject: Re: Your raptureready article To: "Tony Burtovoy" <[email protected]>

1. In none of the rapture verses is an earthquake mentioned or hinted at, i.e. the scripture doesn't say "and the dead in Christ shall rise first, and there will be worldwide earthquakes, then we which are alive and remain....".
2. There is no mention in the book of Revelation of an earthquake-riddled landscape with people must deal with.

These problems, however, do not squash the idea. As you pointed out, the fact that the USA is not a player in the 70^th week of Daniel to come (the tribulation week) is made easier to swallow if the United States is geographically, socially and economically in ruins from an event such as this. The possibility of earthquakes in the USA is strong enough even without the earthquake rapture hypothesis due to the massive faultlines all over the topography, including a large one in Yellowstone (or is it Yosemite?) park that not a lot of people know about. Then you have the California and Missouri fault lines as well as other smaller ones.

As for your question about Revelation 7, I am of the interpretation that people who are seen gathered around the throne, whom John asks the angel who they are and is told "these are they which came out of great tribulation and have made their robes white...", that these people are the raptured church, NOT martyrs killed during the tribulation. The reason for this is the Greek words used: erchomai ek and exerchomai ek are both translated as "came out of" in the book of Revelation. However, one means to be shielded from being in a certain place/state, while the other means to come out of one place into another. Revelation 9:2 is an example of coming out of one place into another when the locusts come out of the bottomless pit. Check the Greek out on blueletterbible.com and you will see what I'm talking about as it is hard to explain.

I started off this email by explaining that very few people think like I do about the end times - I'm glad to hear you might be one that does. Much of my belief about what is going to occur at the rapture and once the church is raptured is based on what the Bible says about the spirit world that we cannot see. It is also based on what I can see going on around in relation to so-called alien abductions, aliens, UFO's, cattle mutilations, crop circles, etc. Don't turn me off now - I don't believe in aliens! However, I do believe in a MASSIVE upcoming Satanic deception and delusion the likes of which is unfathomable by anyone at this time.

What I believe will happen, in a nutshell, is that after the church is removed, Satan will no longer be restrained (read II Thess 2). This lack of a restraining force in the earth, in my distorted and wild view, will allow Satan's Ephesians 6:10 entities to manifest themselves in our 4 dimensional world. I believe these entities exist in the higher dimensions (5-10) that we cannot see with human eyes, but when the restrainer is gone, they will be able to manifest in our 4 dimensions of length, width, height and time. How will they manifest? I believe that there is strong evidence that it will be as aliens from space in high tech UFO's. No, they won't really be aliens, but people remaining on earth will be deceived into believing that they are aliens. Think about all the evidence of abductions, UFO's, as well as all the new age theories of evolution, TV shows, movies, etc., and its easy to conclude that there has been a conditioning of the human mind for the existence of life in other galaxies ever since 1947 (Roswell).

What happens after this is open to tons of speculation, but you touched on some interesting ideas in your email. I would also throw the events of Revelation 9:1-11 into the mix as the key event in Revelation, and quite possibly the key event of the entirety of the tribulation period. And I believe that passage is literal (except where obviously symbolic) - and that people on earth will be tormented for 5 months by what is perceived to be a horde of malevolent and malicious aliens. If this idea interests you, I strongly suggest you check out the following essays on my website:

http://www.geocities.com/rebornempowered/alienlocustattack.htm

http://www.geocities.com/rebornempowered/locustarmy/la1.htm

As for the 'missing people' problem that you alluded to in your email, that is a troubling idea - until you think about an alien explanation. They could tell people anything they wanted to tell them about where they went (they vanished; they were taken to another planet to be deprogrammed; etc.). Would people believe them? Well, if they can believe aliens (actually evil spirits/angels) exist, which they will be able to see before their own 2 eyes, then what would stop them from believing their explanation?

As I stated above, I believe the 5^th trumpet judgment of Revelation 9:1-11 is a key event, and if you were to read the first link above, you would see why I believe it is the key to the mark and image of the beast of Revelation 13. So many people have been conditioned into an idea about the rapture and tribulation from books/movies such as the Left Behind series. While there is some truth/fact to their fictional story, I believe they haven't scratched the surface of what the delusion will entail.

Well, if you aren't totally turned off by this email, send me a reply if you would like to discuss further. Thanks again for the compliments!

Dave in Wichita, KS

CPA

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Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 To: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> | Subject: Your raptureready article From: "Tony Burtovoy" <[email protected]>

 

Turned off?! Tuned-out?! On the contrary! You are basically speaking my my own self-found conclusions. It is very refreshing to hear.. as it's not always easy to find like minds here in my community (This material is so bizarre that I often don't try too hard), Points of agreement:

- Non-existence of ET's in the hollywood/science-fiction sense

- Conditioning of mankind to accept alien "reality"

- Upcoming delusion

- Fallen angels chained under the earth since the flood, to be released soon, will likely masquerade as aliens

- 5 month demonic invasion (probably manifesting themselves as "ET's") (I have already read the links you provide and I think that you are right on)

I have read many of the links you provide from redmoonrising.com.. the new-age article you reference I originally read on cuttingedge.org... all = agree, agree, agree. I also like to listen to the audio files on khouse.org too.

Some spurious thoughts:

..Now of course, in "the days of Noah", there was widespread 'Nephelim-making" going on.. could it be that the current abduction phenomenon is an attempt to rediscover this art which was lost? Could the dinosaurs be the unclean animals (vs. the clean animals that went into the ark?).. and further.. could the dinosaurs be an extended effort by the ancient fallen watchers to corrupt the animal kingdom thru genetic manipulation, (just as genetic corruption of mankind was also attempted)?

Back to the present:

I have had ideas recently which I have not been able to find much corroboration which I'd like to mention. Forgive me if I speculate a little.. (as speculation, whether right or wrong, often leads me to new discoveries)..

..Would'nt it be prudent to think that Satan *may* have a series of mock or decoy events which might appear as fulfillment of many prophecies?.. such that when AC does arrive, he appears to arrive at the end of 7 years of great turmoil?... a decoy tribulation so to speak? Think about it...... Satan is a smart cookie... he does not know the "day or the hour" of the Rapture of course.. but could he be crafty enough to know that it's real close.. perhaps only a few years away? (I've always wondered if the Mayan prophecy of 2012 might be a "setup" planted by Satan centuries ago to serve an end-time agenda). If Satan were to launch a false/fake/decoy middle east peace-treaty (one that really worked for a short time - like the current 'Road-Map", set to be in place by 2005!), then the following points fall neatly into place:

- The 3rd temple construction begins at least a few years before the REAL trib begins.

(..During the REAL tribulation, the temple is already said to be standing.. but

Israel (from what I've read) has claimed that it would take a few years to

build.. which does not jibe very well if construction were to begin at the beginning

of the REAL tribulation).

- Both the occupation of the middle east by the USA and the construction of the

3rd temple gives magog the cause.. and plenty of time to get all wound up..

and put a coalition together.. so that at the time of the beginning of the REAL

tribulation, they are all ready to march.

- Since this decoy tribulation is just that, Satan really sucker punches pre-tribulationists

when he prompts thoughts like: "Where is the promise of his coming?" (2 Peter 3:4)

I suppose many weak pre-tribbers might fall away from the faith, or adopt mid or post,

which harkens back to the 5 wise/5 foolish virgins in Matthew.

- "The" period of middle east peace occurs (before magog marches of course).. thus fulfilling

"We shall go up against the land of unwalled villages"

- Since many believe that the tribulation has begun (Probably many weak theological leaders

will be claiming), then the rapture, when it does come.. will be totally unexpected..

Then sometime thereafter, rapture occurs (with earthquakes), and the world is in disarray. Magog takes advantage of the chaos and marches and is of course miraculously defeated. Antichrist steps in to take control and the world loves him for it.. however, he does not yet have the full authority that he will have later after his assasination/satanically-raised body.

Could the 5 month demon/locust invasion, which occurs some time into the REAL tribulation be put-down by the raised AC under the auspices of the rumored project Blue Beam? Thus causing the "abomination of desolation" in the 3rd temple.. and the worldwide worship of AC and the enforcement of the "mark"?

I can't imagine that any decoy trib would neatly end on the same day that the REAL trib begins.. becuase that would mean that satan knows the "day and hour" of the rapture. I would suppose that any decoy events would probably overlap into the real tribulation.. and that the 5 month demon/locust invasion might be perceived as armegeddon, and then, when the AC defeats the invaders, he will be perceived by the world (muslims, jews and christians alike) as, messiah.

BTW- thanks for the link on "the passion", I appreciate it

Tony Burtovoy

Kalamazoo, Michigan

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Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:53:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> | Subject: Re: Your raptureready article To: "Tony Burtovoy" <[email protected]>

 

Well, after reading your email, it's clear that you have put even more thought into end-time delusion scenarios than I have. Your ideas take a lot of thought to plow through, and as a result I had to read your email several times. Below I've tried to comment on your questions and ideas in a somewhat chronological order:

1. Yes, I believe the current abduction phenomenon is a repeat of the nephilim, except they learned their lesson and are trying a new approach. I believe the entire field of genomics is demonically-inspired, as they try to decipher the human DNA code. No doubt understanding the code of "life" is of interest to Satan, as is blood-our lifeforce, which they have pilfered from cattle for many years. The abductions, which leave behind physical evidences many times, almost always center around experiments on the sex organs and the reproductive systems. I wonder why? So, instead of simply coming down and raping women out in the open against their will (this definitely wouldn't be politically correct nowadays), they are doing it in a more stealth way. They've learned their lesson.
2. As far as your question about the dinosaurs, I have done quite a bit of study on them through some creation scientists, and I believe men and dinosaurs lived together on the earth before the flood. After the flood, I believe the climate change (from the firmament falling, letting in the UV rays) not only shortened man's life span, but also caused the dinosaurs to not live as long nor grow as large. Some species became extinct, but I believe dinosaurs are simply big lizards. Did you know lizards do not have a growth inhibitor? They simply get larger and larger the longer they live. Today, lizards have a short life span due to the climate, but back then, they were dinosaurs.
3. On the ideas you posited regarding mock end-time events posed by Satan, YES, I agree 100%. This is what the end-time delusion is all about, in my opinion. Satan has always been a copy-cat throughout history when you look at scripture. I believe this is what the future holds - so much so, that the "false prophet" of Revelation will be believed by earth-dwellers, even Christians who missed the rapture, to be THE Jesus. This will be due to the mock events Satan has devised such as several different peace treaties so that it is difficult to know which one is THE treaty of Daniel 9:27. Those who believe in post-trib, mid-trib, etc. will be so confused - imagine their angst when they get out their charts and timelines but are unable to come to an agreement as to whether the tribulation has begun; where these "aliens" fit into the picture; the temple rebuilding scenario etc. It will be so confusing that they may as well throw away their timelines. There will be no way to follow the currently-promoted timelines.
4. I am of the strong belief that the mark of the beast will be a counterfeit of the mark placed on the foreheads of the 144,000. The significance of that mark - the name of God - on the 144,000 is that it somehow supernaturally protects them from the Revelation 9 alien locust attack. So, the AC/false prophet come up with one that looks exactly the same and they promise protection from ANOTHER FUTURE alien locust attack if this mark is taken. Why will people believe them? Because of the amazing miracles they are able to perform. So, to avoid the excruciating 5 month torment again, and the fact that they cannot buy/sell without it (this still gives me trouble), they accept the mark.
5. You mentioned project Bluebeam. I'm not familiar with that. Can you enlighten me?
6. You also mentioned a Mayan prophecy and the year 2012. I'm not familiar with that either. Can you also enlighten me on this?
7. I believe the year 2007 will be a key year in the prophetic scenario for several reasons which I won't go into here. I also believe we have begun the end time countdown for two major reasons. Both are related to visions given to two different people. On my website, have you clicked on my section called Visions and Dreams of Perry Stone? If, not, you definitely should, and you should read all the visions. There is one on there about the vision of the four horses and the emblem, also with the audio available of the entire rendition. This vision shows me we are close to the end. A second vision given to a woman in Sri Lanka is absolutely amazing and deals with the 9/11 attack. I'll be posting this on my website soon and telling everyone of Raptureready.com to visit and listen to it.
8. Do you happen to have Chuck Missler's audio study called "Monuments: Sacred or Profane?" If so, can you tell me what the titles of tape 1 and tape 2 are? If I'm not mistaken, the first tape is called "Monuments of Pre-History". I need to know what tape two is called....

I'll let you know when I have posted the information about the vision of the woman of Sri Lanka.

Dave

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Some notes-

- The Mayan prophecy angle is pure speculation on my part. I agree that it is unlikely.. but have thought about it in the past as a potential tool for deception. To actually believe it has real weight in relation to the REAL tribulation would be analagous to believing in date setting.. which of course we do not.

- Blue Beam is certainly bizarre. I would have to also state that since it's quite prevalent on the Net, it may very likely be an exxagerated version of the truth.. or some "dis-information-ized" version of the truth. I mention it only because of it's religious leanings.. and because of the extent to which it claims Governments might be capable of intermingling religious deception and political motives to achieve their NWO. I don't completely discount it, but I'm sure it's not a precise version of the truth.

- Great points on 2007.

- Interesting info on the Islamic Mahdi stuff. I have not followed muslim prophecy, so it is very interesting to hear.. (and of course agreed that it is false). Of course binladen/omar are not the 2 witnesses (I agree that they will probably be Elijah/Enoch (moses possibly(ref: apostles comments at Jesus' transfiguration), but I lean toward Enoch due to his rapture way back when)..

Another subj:

I have been looking closely at the chronolgy of Revelation 6,7,8,9,10 lately. Could you ponder and perhaps comment on the following:

Rev 6..

9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. ¹⁰They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" ¹¹Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. ¹²I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, ¹³and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. ¹⁴The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. ¹⁵Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. ^16They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

MY COMMENTS:

I have heard many claim that the 5th seal martyrs are those who were slain during the tribulation.. but I am concerned about something. If the martyrs were tribulation martyrs, then they would have seen the beginning point of the tribulation.. right? If they had seen the revealing of the Antichrist, then they would certainly know how long it would be before Christs 2nd coming... so why ask the question?, if they likely already know the time frame? Wouldn't these martyrs rather be age-of-grace martyrs.. who like us.. don't know the timing exactly? Now.. if you can swallow that.. then consider that the 6th seal might be the earthquake that follows (coincides, precedes.. whatever) the Rapture? (as the great multitide of Rev 7 might indicate chronologically?). Could the massive worldwide quake(s) be so intense because of the Rapture of so many all at once? Verse 14 indicates that "..every mountain and island was moved from it's place". This to me seems to link both land and sea.. and is eerily reminiscent of a crustal shift of the Earth! How else could every mountain and island be moved from its place? Even it were only a few feet, it would seem to satisfy the prophecy? Are we due for a pole shift soon?! Does the Rapture occur between Rev 6:11 and Rev 6:12? If the chronology of Rev 6-10 holds, then it appears to me that the following might be chronologically feasable:

-White horse of Rev 6 could be the birth of the AC.. or the political birth of the AC.. as having happened perhaps decades ago?

Sidenote: could the "bow" of the rev 6 white horse not be a "bow" as in a bow-and-arrow..

but a "Bow" as in a rainbow.. or covenant.. thus imitating the "Bow" of God after

the flood?

-Magog coalition begins to gather

-Worldwide distraction

-Rapture/Quakes/Crustal shift

-USA withdraws from middle east to defend devestated homeland? -Magog takes advantage of chaos, weakened position of USA

-Israel is left alone to fight own battles

-Damascus destroyed according to Isaiah 17? -Magog invades and is soundly defeated

-Many other worldwide invasions due to chaos (Rev 8?)

-Asteriod impact or nuclear events or crustal shift opens deep canyons somewhere on earth? (Rev 9?)

-Demon/locust events occur, Earth terrorized for 5 months

-Could the 'mighty angel' of Rev 10 be the appearance of Antichrist stepping in to put

down the chaos and invasions? and the scroll his covenant? Would'nt the world LOVE him

for restoring order after 5 months of alien menace?

- Could the seven thunders be declarations by the antichrist.. or words of explanation to these events

which God preferred that no one know about? Why else might the seven thunders be sealed?

Kindly check out this article: http://www.geocities.com/elias2pesach/astheworldturns.html

The dates are disturbing.. and I'm not sure I agree on those.. but the points are thoughtworthy I think..

..OK.. done speculating for now. I'm not claiming anything to be or not to be.. only trying to give you some points to think about. Thanks again for all the thought-ridden responses. I will be listening to the MP3 you reference sometime today.

Tony

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From: David Lowe To: Tony Burtovoy Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 1:22 AM Subject: Re: Your raptureready article

 

Tony,

My comment are below in bold:

I have heard many claim that the 5th seal martyrs are those who were slain during the tribulation.. but I am concerned about something. If the martyrs were tribulation martyrs, then they would have seen the beginning point of the tribulation.. right?

Correct

If they had seen the revealing of the Antichrist, then they would certainly know how long it would be before Christs 2nd coming... so why ask the question?, if they likely already know the time frame?

Maybe. We are assuming, though, that they know the date of the beginning of the tribulation, on which date occurs the signing of a covenant with the AC. But, as I've stated before, I believe that time will be so full of events, deception, delusion, etc., that they won't know when the tribulation actually begins. A key event, though, that I believe people will be able to know without a doubt that they are in the middle of the tribulation, is the death of the two witnesses. This will let people know that there are definitely 3.5 years remaining until Jesus returns.

Wouldn't these martyrs rather be age-of-grace martyrs.. who like us.. don't know the timing exactly?

Interesting. In reading Revelation 6, now that you mention that, I see some interesting things:

1. One thing I know for sure is that the white horse rider is NOT the antichrist. I believe the white horse could represent the whole NWO/global socialism that began in Europe (Britain/France/Germany) with the Fabian society, etc and will ultimately end up being the European Union, or the 7th head of the dragon. The fact that he has a bow without arrows could represent the United Nations, who attempts to use non-violent means to conquer nations. Another reason I believe this could be the case is an absolutely amazing vision given to Perry Stone in 1977. It was a vision of FOUR HORSES (Revelation 6!!) including the white horse, and the horse had an emblem on its leg. Please take a minute to read this and see if you can put the pieces together like I did. Then come back to the email. I just read over this, and I can't stress enough how important it is that you read this: http://www.geocities.com/rebornempowered/visions/1977eurovision.htm

2. The red horse could represent war in the 1900's: WWI, WWII, all the wars we've had in the 20th century. Its says the horse makes the people on the earth want to kill each other. More of the NWO crowds desire to have perpetual war for perpetual peace.

3. Not sure about that black horse, but it could represent a financial collapse, or the takeover of the world by the Federal Reserve, income taxation, fiat currencies, going into debt (as America is-$47 trillion in debt to the Federal Reserve), etc. It could also represent inflation, where the price of goods rise while the goods themselves do not change or get any better. Let's face it: the financial world is ruled by a few individuals who hold shares in the Federal Reserve (we're talking the Rockefellers, Rothschilds, Warburgs, etc.). They have conquered America, and they are doing the same thing in Europe. The Bank of Japan is the same way.

4. The pale horse is not really pale. It's green. The Greek word is "chloros", and is translated "green" in the three other places it is found in the NT, including twice in Revelation. As it has power over 1/4 of the earth (about 1.5 billion people), I believe this could be Islam. There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world right now. Their religion is one of conquest and bloodshed (as is being seen in Liberia right now). As for the "green" reference, if you know anything about Islamm, they are BIG on the color green. If you've seen any mosque at night, you'll notice it is lit up with green lights. Also, there is historical evidence to suggest that Mohammed's favorite color was green.

5. The fifth seal, which is the crux of your question, then, represents all the Christian martyrs since the time of the apostles. When I read this verse, I think of Stephen (Acts 7) crying under the altar to God. Yes, I agree that these are NOT tribulation martyrs, but martyrs of yesterday and today, including the millions of Christians being butchered in the Sudan, Indonesia, Liberia, Morocco, Lybia, China. America? Ha ha. Nope, at least not yet. By the way, those responsible for the murder of the Christians for the most part are Muslims. The fourth horse?

6. The sixth seal, then, represents the EARTHQUAKE RAPTURE!! YES! I see it now, and it fits chronogically. Chapter 4-5 is the rapture and what happens in heaven from the perspective of heaven, and Chapter 6:12 is the rapture from the perspective of earth. Here's the problem I have with the description of the 6th seal, though: how will the stars fall from heaven like a fig tree shakes off figs in the wind? How will the heaven roll up like a scroll? How will every mountain and island be moved? These questions aside, though, if we look at Revelation 7:1, we see "after these things" the 144,000 Jews are sealed. So, in my opinion, this marks the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, and the two witnesses come on the scene. And, there may be a period of time between the rapture and the beginning of the tribulation.

Now.. if you can swallow that.. then consider that the 6th seal might be the earthquake that follows (coincides, precedes.. whatever) the Rapture? (as the great multitide of Rev 7 might indicate chronologically?). Could the massive worldwide quake(s) be so intense because of the Rapture of so many all at once? Verse 14 indicates that "..every mountain and island was moved from it's place". This to me seems to link both land and sea.. and is eerily reminiscent of a crustal shift of the Earth! How else could every mountain and island be moved from its place? Even it were only a few feet, it would seem to satisfy the prophecy? Are we due for a pole shift soon?! Does the Rapture occur between Rev 6:11 and Rev 6:12?

Yes, I think we're on the same wavelength here. Your comments above help to quell some of my problems. But I still have a problem with the stars falling from heaven!

If the chronology of Rev 6-10 holds, then it appears to me that the following might be chronologically feasable:

-White horse of Rev 6 could be the birth of the AC.. or the political birth of the AC.. as having happened perhaps decades ago?

Disagree here. See my points above and read the link I posted above. The AC is the 8th kingdom (Revelation 17:10) and will emerge from the area of the Seleucid empire according to Daniel chapter 8. The AC rules for only 3.5 years. The white horse is more a representation of the 7th kingdom - revived Roman empire or global government in my view. But yes, I agree the intro of the white horse could have happened decades ago.

Sidenote: could the "bow" of the rev 6 white horse not be a "bow" as in a bow-and-arrow..

but a "Bow" as in a rainbow.. or covenant.. thus imitating the "Bow" of God after

the flood?

That's interesting and I never thought of it that way. But I think not. Looking at the Greek, there isn't much info on the Greek "toxon". But "rainbow" is found twice in Revelation as "iris". If it is referring to a covenant, I think it would be much less cryptic.

-Magog coalition begins to gather

-Worldwide distraction

-Rapture/Quakes/Crustal shift

-USA withdraws from middle east to defend devestated homeland? -Magog takes advantage of chaos, weakened position of USA

-Israel is left alone to fight own battles

-Damascus destroyed according to Isaiah 17? -Magog invades and is soundly defeated

-Many other worldwide invasions due to chaos (Rev 8?)

-Asteriod impact or nuclear events or crustal shift opens deep canyons somewhere on earth? (Rev 9?)

-Demon/locust events occur, Earth terrorized for 5 months

I have no problem with the chronology you list above, other than the Magog war could occur before the rapture.

-Could the 'mighty angel' of Rev 10 be the appearance of Antichrist stepping in to put

down the chaos and invasions? and the scroll his covenant? Would'nt the world LOVE him

for restoring order after 5 months of alien menace?

- Could the seven thunders be declarations by the antichrist.. or words of explanation to these events

which God preferred that no one know about? Why else might the seven thunders be sealed?

Here I disagree again. I don't see the AC in chapter 10, however, after reading chapter 10, it totally freaks me out. I have no idea what this could be about. Other than Ezekiel chapter 2, where we have Ezekiel eating the scroll and being told it will taste like honey. This is the same thing said to John in chapter 10. Perhaps we are being told to go to Ezekiel here for clues?

Kindly check out this article: http://www.geocities.com/elias2pesach/astheworldturns.html

The dates are disturbing.. and I'm not sure I agree on those.. but the points are thoughtworthy I think..

I read the page, and a polar axis shift is an interesting idea I suppose. But I'm not sure about his whole thesis of the stars falling from heaven only looking like they are falling from heaven because of a polar shift. I think he is reading way too much into it.

..OK.. done speculating for now. I'm not claiming anything to be or not to be.. only trying to give you some points to think about. Thanks again for all the thought-ridden responses. I will be listening to the MP3 you reference sometime today.


Thanks for the points to think about. Thanks to you, I now can see the rapture possibly occuring in Revelation 6:12, as well as Revelation 4:1. One is the perspective from heaven, and one is the perspective of the earth. I definitely need to update my earthquake rapture essay now.

Dave

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I'll keep this short.. as I want to delve back into my research and re-adapt as well..

- Yes, the beginning of the trib will certainly be so full of events that it will be difficult to know exactly the begin point.. but consider something: Perhaps the 5th seal martyrs wont know the exact "begin" day.. but certainly they will know the begin point within a few months. Once they see the rapture, they will certainly know that the 2nd coming is "about" seven years away.. OK.. so if they don't know the exact day, they might be off a few months.. or maybe even a year.. but the question they pose seems like they have absolutely no clue. If I were in that group, having recently seen the huge volume of events before I was martyred.. I'd certainly know that seven or eight or so years down the road would be it.. right?

<Response to your #1-#4>: I am pretty flexible on the 4 horses. I agree with you that they all have already "begun". It's silly to think that they haven't considering the carnage of the 1900's. Islam is certainly an evil, torturous, slave-religion. I read articles almost daily about muslims who convert to Christianity and are within minutes hacked to death with machetes... how parents murder their children for 'allah'... how children born to muslim parents are muslim for life and "cannot" convert without being murdered. I am incredibly saddened about the millions of souls of Ishmael that will be lost because of this slave religion. I am no fan of John Ashcroft, but shortly after 911 I read an article with a quote from him (which was ridiculed by many and quicked squashed), but the quote went something like this: "Islam is a religion that requires you to sacrifice your children to god. Christianity is a religion where God sacrifices his Son for you".

<Response to #6>: Perhaps there will also be some literal asteriod events that occur near that time? Earth passes thru a cloud of space debris? Perhaps this actually serves the destruction of Magog (at least in part?) Completely conjectural. Time will tell.

I will be reading the links you provide soon.

Keep this thread on ice. Perhaps we will uncover more truth by our collaboration.

Tony

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From: David Lowe To: Tony Burtovoy Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 11:55 PM Subject: Re: Your raptureready article

 

Replies below:

- Yes, the beginning of the trib will certainly be so full of events that it will be difficult to know exactly the begin point.. but consider something: Perhaps the 5th seal martyrs wont know the exact "begin" day.. but certainly they will know the begin point within a few months. Once they see the rapture, they will certainly know that the 2nd coming is "about" seven years away..

Not necessarily. I'm of the camp who believes that there could be a space of time between the rapture and the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. I've searched, but I don't believe there are any scriptures that demand the rapture occurs on the same day, or even near the same day, the tribulation starts.

OK.. so if they don't know the exact day, they might be off a few months.. or maybe even a year.. but the question they pose seems like they have absolutely no clue. If I were in that group, having recently seen the huge volume of events before I was martyred.. I'd certainly know that seven or eight or so years down the road would be it.. right?

<Response to your #1-#4>: I am pretty flexible on the 4 horses. I agree with you that they all have already "begun". It's silly to think that they haven't considering the carnage of the 1900's. Islam is certainly an evil, torturous, slave-religion. I read articles almost daily about muslims who convert to Christianity and are within minutes hacked to death with machetes... how parents murder their children for 'allah'... how children born to muslim parents are muslim for life and "cannot" convert without being murdered.

Where are you reading these stories daily? I'd sure like to read them as well.

I am incredibly saddened about the millions of souls of Ishmael that will be lost because of this slave religion. I am no fan of John Ashcroft, but shortly after 911 I read an article with a quote from him (which was ridiculed by many and quicked squashed), but the quote went something like this: "Islam is a religion that requires you to sacrifice your children to god. Christianity is a religion where God sacrifices his Son for you".

That is an awesome statement by Ashcroft! What an amazing set of circumstances that saw him move into the role of Attorney General of the US Government, the top prosecutor of the land. He lost to a DEAD MAN in the Missouri governor race! God had a more important spot for this Spirit-filled man of God, and thank God we have him in there during these perilous times. How in the world do you LOSE to a man who is dead? The Lord is good.

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From: Tony Burtovoy To: David Lowe Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 3:46 PM Subject: Fw: Your raptureready article

 

I read articles usually from the following (most of the articles I have referenced to you, I have read on worldnetdaily.com - I try to visit that site once a day.. or every couple of days - very well updated).

www.worldnetdaily.com

www.raidersnewsupdate.com

www.worthynews.com

www.antiwar.com

www.rense.com

www.cuttingedge.org

www.khouse.org

www.conservativetruth.org

www.whatreallyhappened.com

..now.. I have to admit, that there aren't articles about muslim atrocities up there every day.. but it seems that there are more and more these days.

*** Read the attached article (if you've not already seen it on the Net) by an Arab Christian convert named Walid. I love this story.

Ashcroft remark (although I originally read this on Worldnetdaily.com:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0220-03.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A7548-2002Feb13?language=printer

http://conservativetruth.org/archives/christopheradamo/03-03-02.shtml

Some other interesting sites- (of course, I don't claim everything these sites put forth.. but alot of it is usually agreeable):

www.delusionresistance.org

www.infowars.com

www.propagandamatrix.com

www.humanunderground.com

<Response to rapture timing>- Interesting. I think I will look into this with this fresh viewpoint.

 

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From: Tony Burtovoy To: David Lowe Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2003 3:46 PM Subject: link

 

Check out this link. I wish I could think of some appropriate comment, but I can't seem to. Very sad.

http://www.christianpersecution.info/

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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:31:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> | Subject: Re: Link To: "Tony Burtovoy" <[email protected]>

 

From your description, I had better not go to that page while I'm here at work. I'll wait till I get home.

Did you get a chance to read the link on the vision of the four horses by Perry Stone that I sent? Here is the link again in case you didn't:

http://www.geocities.com/rebornempowered/visions/1977eurovision.htm

This vision is now giving my theory of the first four seals already happening in history major problems. I've scarcely been able to think of anything else lately in relation to the Bible. Give it a read and let me know if you can see what I'm talking about. It has made me cognizant of one thing: we must separate the horses from their riders when interpreting the meaning of the seals. Before now, I'd not looked at it that way.

I was surprised to find that there are other sites, in addition to the site you showed me, that champion the idea of a polar shift occurring at the time of the sixth seal. If this is indeed the rapture, with an earthquake, a polar shift, etc. going on, the left behind will have much more to worry about than where the Christians disappeared to. The polar shift/earthquake scenario gives me trouble, though, because what is the aftermath? Are cities totally destroyed as we knew them? What about the 144,000 that begin evangelizing during the first 3.5 years of the tribulation? What about the 2 witnesses that come on the scene at the beginning of the tribulation and are killed halfway through? Jerusalem has obviously survived the polar shift because that is where they administer their testimony. But it just seems that the world should be in total upheaval (mountains and islands removed out of their place!?) after a polar shift. It seems, though, that there is enough semblance for there to be a ministry by the 2 witnesses in Jerusalem, along with the 144,000, and all the other activities that take place in the first 3.5 years of the tribulation. And we haven't even talked about the devastation of the first four trumpets, the alien/demon locust attack of the fifth trumpet, or the sixth trumpet, which all occur prior to the middle of the tribulation.

I've heard commentary that there has been at least one polar shift throughout history. Have you ever read anything by Donald W. Patten or Velikovsky? Patten theorizes that Mars used to have an elliptical orbit around the sun, and that every 54 and 108 years it would come close to the earth in its orbit. Close enough to cause major tidal problems, and that is why Mars is called the god of war and so many of the ancient civilizations worshipped Mars. He theorized it got so close at one point that it was 50 times larger than the moon in the sky. At some point, a planet called "Electra" was destroyed by a collision with some other body, and Electra is now the large asteroid field that orbits the sun between Jupiter and Mars - exactly where another planet could be. He theorizes that the major craters on Mars, and the craters on the earth, are a result of Mars coming into the path of the Electra asteroids, pulling some them along, and some of them getting caught in Earth's atmosphere. He says that 90% of the craters are within one hemisphere and occurred during one event. He also shows that the strange events in the Bible occur 54 and 108 years apart, such as the sun dial moving backwards for Hezekiah, the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Joshua's long day, etc., up until 701BC. Something happened at that time, possibly a polar shift, such that earth's orbit around the sun takes 365.25 days now instead of 360. Not sure whether you've heard this stuff before, but I think it probably has something to do with the first few trumpet judgments and maybe too the polar shift of the 6^th seal.

Well, anyway, let me know what you think of all this, and of the link I sent you above.

Dave

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From: "Tony Burtovoy" <[email protected]> | To: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Link Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:16:16 -0400

I HAVE heard of the Mars scenario you describe.. but from Chuck Missler on his MARS briefing pack (lots of the same stuff!). I also have heard of Velikovsky but have not delved too much into his stuff. I would have to say that I do not discount the Mars close-encounter-with-Earth theory. It would certainly make sense with the verses you quote (I am familiar with all those Biblical accounts).. and also in that man seems to have some unknown, deep-seeded fear of Mars as well as the meaning of it's name: War. I have heard Missler speculate about the craters as well... although from what I recall, he speculated that the ancient solar system contained an additional planet between Mars and Jupiter.. perhaps called "Rahab"... which was destroyed by God thus creating the asteroid belt? The vast majority of the craters on Mars and our own moon are primarily on the sides facing away from the Sun?!! Could Rahab and/or Mars have contained ancient (or at least pre-flood) angelic civilizations which were destroyed during Satans original rebellion? Rahab destroyed and Mars reduced to bacterial resistance with all but a few monuments (Cydonia) still discernable? I also agree that (not sure why, gut feeling) that the Earth once had a 360 day year. I'd surmised that it happened in 1 of 2 places...... either at the flood where the antedeluvial year was 360 days.. and the postdeluvial year was 365.25............. or at "Joshua's long day". It makes sense.. especially if a pole-shift takes us back to a 360 day year ("except those days be shortened, no one would remain alive, but for the elects' sake, those days will be shortened"). So when Daniel refers to 7 years equalling 2520 days, perhaps he is referring to REAL YEARS, because at that time, the Earth will have reverted back to a 360 day year?

Have you ever asked yourself why 90% of all of ours (and Russia's) Mars probes meet with disaster or failure? Hubble promised to be able to see Mars from a distance and it was flawed. The latest Mars probe that is right now on it's way was recently reported to have failures of some kind (forgive my vagueness - I only hafl-listen to those types of news accounts these days because I pretty much expect them before they're reported). Dig into our success rate with Mars probes and you see some amazing evidence!! No way our failure rate should be that high!... or are they not really failing????? perhaps the gov't claims failure to alleviate the responsibility to report any data.. then has complete freedom to run those rovers around Cydonia!! who knows?!!

The Polar Shift.

Yes. I have the same problems you do. A FULL polar shift would all but decimate this plant. My latest feeling is this....... does a "Polar Shift" have to mean a shift of 180 degrees? If the poles only move a few miles.. or even a few feet, does not the prophecy of the 6th seal get satisfied? I would surmise that a shift of even a few inches would satisfy the prophecy?!!!! I am often amazed at how literal fulfillment of prophecy can be. Perhaps 1000 years ago, the Jews would have thought that it would take an army of thousands and thousands of men to regain the homeland.. with much bloodshed and violence........ yet God produced the fulfillment of the promise with the simple stroke of a pen.... who would have thought it?!!!!! I would bet that the poles WILL shift.. but likely only a few "degrees".. This of course would result in eartquakes, chaos, sattellite system disruption (if not destruction), navigational mess due to changed star positions, costal flooding, mountain range collapse, islands moved from their places.......... but certainly not the end of human civilization! Perhaps as your website indicates, this shifting opens some rift in the Earth near Abaden Island in Iran?? setting the stage for the demon-locusts to emerge?

Accordingly, I could definitely still see the 144000 happening, the 2 witnesses and all the rest on a post-shift Earth which is probably very different from today. That time will make todays societal problems pale in comparison! The stock market will likely be kaput (not that there's enough real money to back it's current inflated value anyway) and the retirements of millions will be erased in a moment. Money will be meaningless for at least awhile during the ensuing turmoil as electrical grids will be down, stores will have no groceries, law enforcement will be helpless, fire and emergency crews will be hoplessly buried in emergancy calls and injured people. We here in America will be BEGGING for a solution. Perhaps North America will suffer geologically worse than Europe? thus allowing Europe to rise to prominence as the worlds' only superpower!

I HAVE read that link on the four horses vision, but I'm going to reread it either later tonight or tomorrow morning. I definitely want to respond in a seperate message concentrating totally on that.

Tony

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From: Tony Burtovoy To: David Lowe Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:27 PM Subject: Re: Link

 

http://www.geocities.com/rebornempowered/visions/1977eurovision.htm

Comments:

- So P.Stone proposes that the white horse is perhaps the EU... and perhaps it's rider is a seperate entity that will mount the horse a short time later.. then would go forth conquering with peace.. interesting! The first seal claims "Behold A White Horse.(period)".. not: "Behold a rider upon a White Horse!".

1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" ²I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

..I take the "rider" of a horse (if we interpret the horse to be a kingdom (or gov't).. and the rider to be the leader of that kingdom. So if the "rider" of the horse is explicitly given a crown, then shouldn't we take that as meaning that immediately beforehand, he did not have a crown? So the horse appears.. and the rider referred to is then given a crown.. or elected? perhaps after some short delay of time inbetween? But is this man the AC? Perhaps.. but with only limited power.

..then the tribulation midpoint approaches, the Antichrist is assasinated (perhaps by right wing christians or jews); pronounced dead in the hospital. After 3 days in the morgue, someone notices a toe twitch... emergency teams hustle about and shock life back into his heart. After a short time, probably only a few days, TV's around the world show the ressurected man waving to adoring throngs from a hospital balcony.. ala Ronald Reagan. Science claims some silly coma for the mixup, but the AC claims to have been in other realms (and actually dead). AC declares Christianity & Judaism evil relics of a violent past and decalres total banishment and/or execution of its followers. He likely also calls on perhaps ET worship or reverence as reasoning for his miraculous recovery and likely takes claim as supreme liason on Earth to the ET community. AC declares himself as god of this planet, all on TV from the 3rd temple........ and pooof.. the 8th kingdom is born!

Back to the riders..

So if we seperate the horses(kingdoms) from their riders(leaders).. then shouldn't it follow that the other 3 horses might also be kingdoms with tyrannical leaders?

2nd Horse- Red Horse- Firery, Takes peace from the earth, makes men slay each other, large sword

To me this is reminiscient of t*rr*rism and the middle

eastern countries. is the sword a play on the arab scimitar?

..or perhaps a representation of the use of conventional

weapons in an age of smart b*mbs, stealth planes and

high-tech sattellites?

3rd Horse- Black Horse- pair of scales, inflation, do not harm oil and wine

If this horse is a kingdom, then it will be a kingdom that

destroys or brings down economies.. yet protects, (or fails to

destroy the oil and the wine). Is the oil and wine literally the

typical foodstuffs? or is there meaning here related to middle

eastern "oil" and then also wine or alcoholic products? In the

midst of economic turmoil are prices on gas and alcoholic

products kept artificially low for some reason?

4th Horse- Pale or Chlorus- Death and Hades. What is the meaning of

"and hades followed close behind him"?. These riders cause 25% of the

Earth to be killed.. but the methods are not the same and are quite varied.

Is there any connection to Islam here? I pretty much see all these conditions

in Islamic countries.

..these last three comment paragraphs on horses 2-4 are just me thinking out loud. Nothing I would take a stand on and I really have better ideas as yet... but I am intrigued by where this is going.

On to: http://www.geocities.com/rebornempowered/visions/1997attackvision4.htm

Talk to you soon.

Tony

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From: "Tony Burtovoy" <[email protected]> | To: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Link Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:52:51 -0400

last thought:

I still have troubles with the pole-shift scenario with the "stars falling to the ground". A minor shift (a degree or less) would seem to satisfy the 6th seal on all but this point. I think there would be only 3 ways that the stars would seem to fall to the ground:

1. A large pole shift.. at least 45 degrees or greater

2. A great increase in earth's rotation, so that star movements might be visible with the naked eye and could be seen falling to the horizon just before dawn (silly sure.. but just presenting any viewpoint, no matter how improbable)

3. Stars or asteroids actually did collide with earth

..but could there be yet one more possibility?

As I understand a pole shift, the crust slides along the mantle.. sort of like loosen orange peel on an orange (discounting the connective tissue in the orange of course). A true crustal shift of 180 degrees would certainly destroy earth civilization..

But.. could there be such a thing as a "pole reversal"? Could the earth actually flip upside down?.. perhaps relatively slowly.. over days or weeks? I'm really winging it here.. and I certainly don't even know if such a thing would be more or less catastrophic as a true crustal shift... I'm kind of just exploring my thoughts, come as they may...... but if such a thing were possible.. and were relatively slow, could the bulk of civilization survive?? OK... I'm really out on this particular limb... I'm done ranting.... I think I will research the geological consequnces of different kinds of shifts and see what I come up with.. who knows, right?!!

Tony

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To: David Lowe From: Tony Burtovoy Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 12:49 AM Subject: Shift link

Dave-

I have been hunting around for shift information as possibly related to sixth-seal type events. This paragraph is one of the few that I've found the seems to indicate that there are different kinds of shifts and that the relative motion of the shift, under the right circumstance, does not necessarily have to reduce the planet to complete rubble.

xs

http://wrightworld.net/poleshiftnews.htm ...note the 4th paragraph down (also copied here):

The pole-shift will happen in sync with rotation, and there will be no catastrophic disturbance of

wind or wave. It will be a survivable event and most will live to see the arrival of the Kingdom. A

geophysical pole-shift is a north/south movement of the Earth's mantle around the fixed axis of

the core, while the west to east movement of rotation continues unabated. The result is a combined

spiraling movement that keeps rotational momentum unchanged, while at the same time shifting

the geographic position of the poles. Since momentum remains constant, there will be no sudden

affects to wind or wave.

Also... here is a wealth of information on small pole shifts:

http://www.huttoncommentaries.com/PSResearch/Strain/SmallPoleShift.htm

..This link contains alot of comparison to Edgar Cayce readings. Although interesting, I believe psychic information (like Cayce's) is definitely demonic influenced deception masquerading as helpful entities. I believe that many of those types of readings that attempt to predict the future are attempts by demonic sources to plant deceptive seeds about the causes and purposes of those future events that they know will occur. In most cases, predictions are purposefully vague to disguise the fact that fallen beings are certainly fallible.. but understanding this, it is sometimes very interesting and informative to see what 'bad seeds' are being planted by the enemy as it gives some good insight into what they are thinking and expecting (Also see: http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1044.html for similar look at how psychic/spirit info attempts to deceive, and when read with the proper perspective.. how thinly veiled the deception actually is)

Thoughts welcome.

Tony

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From: David Lowe To: Tony Burtovoy Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 12:49 AM Subject: Re: Shift link Tony: Replies below in bold: Dave- I have been hunting around for shift information as possibly related to sixth-seal type events. This paragraph is one of the few that I've found the seems to indicate that there are different kinds of shifts and that the relative motion of the shift, under the right circumstance, does not necessarily have to reduce the planet to complete rubble. xs http://wrightworld.net/poleshiftnews.htm ...note the 4th paragraph down (also copied here): The pole-shift will happen in sync with rotation, and there will be no catastrophic disturbance of wind or wave. It will be a survivable event and most will live to see the arrival of the Kingdom. A geophysical pole-shift is a north/south movement of the Earth's mantle around the fixed axis of the core, while the west to east movement of rotation continues unabated. The result is a combined spiraling movement that keeps rotational momentum unchanged, while at the same time shifting the geographic position of the poles. Since momentum remains constant, there will be no sudden affects to wind or wave. This sounds interesting, but I wonder where he came up with his information? Is this just his opinion, or he is he a scientist? Also... here is a wealth of information on small pole shifts: http://www.huttoncommentaries.com/PSResearch/Strain/SmallPoleShift.htm ..This link contains alot of comparison to Edgar Cayce readings. Although interesting, I believe psychic information (like Cayce's) is definitely demonic influenced deception masquerading as helpful entities. I believe that many of those types of readings that attempt to predict the future are attempts by demonic sources to plant deceptive seeds about the causes and purposes of those future events that they know will occur. In most cases, predictions are purposefully vague to disguise the fact that fallen beings are certainly fallible.. but understanding this, it is sometimes very interesting and informative to see what 'bad seeds' are being planted by the enemy as it gives some good insight into what they are thinking and expecting (Also see: http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1044.html for similar look at how psychic/spirit info attempts to deceive, and when read with the proper perspective.. how thinly veiled the deception actually is)

Well, like you say, I'm very leary of anything that is associated with Edgar Cayce. But, given the information you've sent me, if accurate, helps me to understand how small pole shifts could be what is going on in Revelation 6. I will be doing more research on this idea. Any links you can send me will be welcome.

I've been trading emails with a fella who has a prophecy website. He has written a prophetic model that champions the idea of a sixth seal rapture of the church. His main thesis is based on the moon turning into blood at the 6th seal. According to Joel's prophecy, this happens BEFORE the "day of the Lord" comes. So, all the events before this (including seals 1-5 and the great earthquake of the 6th seal) occur before the beginning of the Day of the Lord. When I told him about my "earthquake rapture" model, he was stoked. He said he didn't make the connection with the the earthquakes occurring when people were resurrected into new bodies, and that my idea gives his model even more power.

I invite you to check out this website if you haven't yet. He is a great guy with a great amount of information. Check this out first: http://www.redmoonrising.com/book.htm. Then this: http://www.redmoonrising.com/enterapocalypse.htm. Also, this is good: http://www.redmoonrising.com/peaceandsafety.htm. He's also working on a large essay about the Elite Establishment here: http://www.redmoonrising.com/AmericanBabylon/ABindex.htm.

I'm going to be working on my own prophetic model and putting on my website soon, centered around and earthquake rapture.

Dave

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From: "Tony Burtovoy" <[email protected]> | To: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Shift link Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:32:23 -0400

 

David- I have read (in the past) most of the links you shared from redmoonrising, but I greatly enjoyed re-reading them. Truly great material.

I'd like to share a very interesting link I found recently which is about 30 pages, but another fascinating read related to pole-shifts, and your favorite subject, earthquakes. http://www.g-ratedstuff.com/pole_shift.htm

I emplore you to continue your research and continue to share what you find with the rest of us. Between my own digging and conversations with yourself in the last few weeks, I have added reams of information to my own understanding of these subjects.

Great Job!

Regards,

Tony

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From: David Lowe To: Tony Burtovoy Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 5:42 PM Subject: Re: Shift link

Tony,

Thanks for the link, which I will definitely be reading.

A question for you. If you've read Red Moon Rising's website, you know that he believes the two witnesses will be Joshua and Zerubbabel from the OT. I tend to agree with him on this. However, the majority of prophecy teachers lean toward Elijah and either Moses or Enoch.

If Elijah is not one of the two witnesses, do you believe:

1. he has already come in the form of John the Baptist, or
2. he will still come in the future during the tribulation, in addition to the two witnesses, despite John not talking about this in Revelation?

From: "Tony Burtovoy" <[email protected]> | Add to Address Book To: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Shift link Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:38:20 -0400

Dave-

Did you ever get a chance to read that last link I provided?

http://www.g-ratedstuff.com/pole_shift.htm

I am referring to Rev 16, 17 & 18 at(or around) the 7th bowl judgement. The reference to an earthquake "such has never been seen before" implies that it is much worse than the terrible event of Rev 6? If Rev 6 is a smaller (but worldwide) shift/quake..... then could Rev 16 be a final, larger shift.. or even some sort of orbital adjustment of Earth (or a combination of both?). The sentences after Bowl #7 seem to include: [these are my thoughts, not taken from above article.. but dont necessarily disagree]

Rev 16 (last half)

-Islands sinking/collapsing

-Mountain ranges collapsing

crashing in? thus cleansing the skies of said junk?)

Rev 17

-Physical collapse of N. American continent due to shifting/wobbling

as the political collapse of america?)

Rev 18

-Extended descriptions of N. American continental collapse

-Demonic forces banished to collapsed, uninhabitable wasteland of N. America

-Earth inhabitants greatly mourn loss of USA power, wealth and influence?

..I've been musing about these chapters lately and these are just thoughts. I'm trying to piece together possible events matched to causes, effects and timings. it's wonderfully complex!... as I strive on I am finding lots of agreement with articles on your site and also redmoonrising and other sites as well.

Thoughts welcome.

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Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:58:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> | Subject: Re: Shift link To: "Tony Burtovoy" <[email protected]>

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From: [email protected] | To: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Shift link Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:20:12 -0400

-Feel free to post anything I/we discuss.

I just can't imagine anyplace else on this planet rising to such power/wealth in only a few years. Even if Iraq were to truly be the real babylon of Revelation, then the current war mess would have to do a complete 180 and (ancient) babylon would have to, within only a few years.. be rebuilt, invested-in and grow to such heights of wealth so as to meet the Biblical description?? thats a huge stretch even by the most lenient of models... unless you move your expectation of the tribulation to about 2030.... and doing that leaves us with about 30 years to fill, which at the current rate of moral, religious and ethical decline would have us as a society probably reduced to something out of Road Warrior?!

-One note on your 4th trumpet comment:

If the Earth spins faster, doesn't centrifugal force increase? Granted, I didn't pass college physics with 'flying' colors, but if the rate of rotation increases, wouldn't all our weights, including all other matter on Earth change? Just a thought. Here's another: What if Nibiru were to come close to Earth, perhaps shake us up a bit, then mysteriously begin orbiting the earth/moon system?!! In doing so, when crossing between Sun/Earth, it could feasably cause a total solar eclipse of the entire earth for ~4hrs (1/3rd of a 12hr day) each day (blotting out both the sun and moon), and then when crossing the dark side of earth (earth in the middle), causing a slow moving invisible sky shadow blotting out the stars beind it? Is this crazy? maybe. Am I full of it? maybe... but it does kind of nicely lead into trumpet #5's demon/locust(alien) incident where Nibiru in trumpet #4 could be "explained away" as the source of the mysterious invaders?

-Babylon

Rev 14 mentions "fallen, fallen is bablyon the great".. then Rev 18 does too. What? Does it fall twice? I was only theorizing that perhaps there's something to this. Perhaps Rev 14 pictures the fall of the "Babylonian" system of government (of which the USA could be considered the most powerful branch therof, ever)... replaced by the height of NWO police-state power? Honestly, I don't know.... but what I do know is that no "powerful, western nation seems to be prominent during the tribulation".. so where does America go? I theorize that she will be crippled by the Rev 6 shift.. but will continue in a weakened state until she collapses politically around Rev 14. The Rev 17-18 picture, as I see it is Gods final judgement on this entity, which ultimately encompasses the whole world..... from the looks of it by a polar shift and/or orbital adjustment.. but certainly bigger than the Rev 6 event!! Whatever the case, when mountain ranges and islands collapse, what are we talking about? crustal-plate-slippage?.. or tectonic-plate rearrangement? Is this the event that makes men "rarer than fine gold?". In any case, the descriptions of Rev 17-18 is stunningly reminiscent of N. America, especially when speaking of wealth and luxuries...... and the ultimate mourning of merchants worldwide when she is decimated??

Let me know when you have digested that other shift article.

Regards,

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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:55:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> | Subject: Re: Shift link To: [email protected]

-Feel free to post anything I/we discuss.

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From: "Tony Burtovoy" <[email protected]> | To: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Shift link Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:16:06 -0400

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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:39:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> | Subject: Re: Shift link To: "Tony Burtovoy" <[email protected]>

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From: "Tony Burtovoy" <[email protected]> | Add to Address Book To: [email protected] Subject: Last FW Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 07:44:56 -0400

"The shift-link article":

I completely agree on your analysis. I wanted you to read that primarily for the intriguing shift/quake information. The trigger-event and other issues were also taken by me as irrevelant rambling.. specifically the part deep down in the article where he claimed that the "shift will totally wipe out the false-messiah and NWO", which almost got me physically up out of my chair. I believe my Bible says that JC is supposed to take care of that himself personally.

"The 'centrifugal-force' issue and the shortening of days by 1/3rd":

I'm not sure if I'm really claiming anything. It's just a thought that I had. I would guess that if anything were to change at all on Earth (for the worse), then we and all our stuff would be 33% heavier. Now I'm 5'10", 190lbs.. so I guess I'd feel like a 250lb guy. Certainly ugly.. but not so as I would not be able to function. In reality, I'm not quite sharp enough with the physics of gravitational equations between two masses and how gravitational and centrifugal forces might be affected by changes in rotational velocity. I'd be interested to know if somebody out there were to do the math.. but at the end of the day I consider it just

interesting speculation.

"Babylon":

Ahh Babylon. Good points on the Perry Stone viewpoint (and if we agree to disagree with that article-writer on his trigger event, then things remain nice and neat). Your points are well taken and I'm with you about 90%. I still see America in there somewhere, but the edges are just too fuzzy right now. Perhaps with some more prayer. On another note, I have heard the following said: "If G-d does not wipe San Francisco from the face of the Earth, then he owes Sodom and Gommorah a big apology". Kinda funny, kinda not. I suppose that the big two reasons America still exists in spite of all her corruption an blatant sin, are (1): The sincere and active Christians; and (2): Support for Israel ("bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee"). Arab nations would do well to heed that last one. I'd hate to see the havoc in this country (both human and natural) that would occur if we ever lost one or both of those assets!

Every time I see the ten commandments outlawed somewhere, or some new immoral acceptance of homosexuality, abortion, porn, whatever.. it makes me

reflect big time. I live in bumpwater Michigan and there's casinos going up everywhere. I can't even hardly watch TV anymore for all the gay-leaning shows and all the sickening reality shows making people eat bugs, betray friends, lie, cheat, strip or worse.. all for what? m-o-n-e-y. What's up with Pepsi giving away 1 billion dollars? or the local state lotto's giving 100-200 million routinely? This country is broke except for what credit we can con other people into giving us. Insanity it all around us and I hardly even know what to say about it anymore in my prayers! (ok, vent complete).

*******redacted material********

As always: "..good talk, Dave".

Tony

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Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:33:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> | Subject: Re: Last FW To: "Tony Burtovoy" <[email protected]>

****redacted material****

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From: [email protected] | To: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> Subject: I'm here! Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 17:30:35 -0400

Sorry Dave. Not ignoring you in the least. I'm deep in the throes of figgering out the quirks of my new ISP. I just checked my hotmail account on a whim and saw several of your items.. it looked like you were not CC-ing to [email protected].. and since I don't often check hotmail, I've been missing your comments in the last week as well.

I will make a better effort to check hotmail for awhile.. until I can get a better grasp on why some of my other mails are being 'lost-in-space'. Anyway.. here's some responses to your last 3 mails..

Regards

TB

A quick question for you before I respond to your other email:

I'm doing some research in scripture. Can you please list for me all the reasons you can think of that the Ezekiel 38-39 war of Gog and Magog takes place before the trib period, like most prophecy teachers say? I want to know why it cannot be what is briefly described in Revelation 20. I'm drawing a blank on why it CANNOT be the Revelation 20 description, and why it MUST be before the trib.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks

Gimme a day or so on this. I wanna make sure I speak correctly and soundly... stay tuned!

****Redacted material****

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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:45:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> | Subject: Re: I'm here! To: [email protected]

A quick question for you before I respond to your other email:

I'm doing some research in scripture. Can you please list for me all the reasons you can think of that the Ezekiel 38-39 war of Gog and Magog takes place before the trib period, like most prophecy teachers say? I want to know why it cannot be what is briefly described in Revelation 20. I'm drawing a blank on why it CANNOT be the Revelation 20 description, and why it MUST be before the trib.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks

Gimme a day or so on this. I wanna make sure I speak correctly and soundly... stay tuned!

****Redacted material****

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From: [email protected] | To: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: I'm here! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:34:57 -0400

> to and fro like a drunkard, the word "reel" is

> I posted on my website.

Yeah- I've contemplated that too. Seems to make alot of sense. I like that fact that he brings up the references in Isiah about reeling to and fro. I believe there are also references to tumbling, and turning upside down (i'll have to get back to you if you want specifics). I believe the refs in Isiah like this are much more serious than a 1 degree or so crustal shift (which to me seems more like a huge "skidding" of the crust for the 1 or so degree length. I am beginning to think that the rev 17-18 area might seem to indicate a 2nd larger shift which harkens back to the Isiah references (I'll have to get back to you in a sperate mail for specific verses). I like the reference to NUA, perhaps that will be something to add to my ever-growing "research to-do" list!

The dream; about 3 weeks ago:

I'm lying on the couch right next to side-room window (northwest).

I'm looking out the window at completely cloudless blue sky. There's

a faint daytime moon in the sky about 3/4 full, on left side. I'm

I think, this isn't "it" is it? (a pole shift seems to be the first thing

that comes to mind) Then the moon starts to move quite quickly to the east

wave appears and starts to move in.. I think: "Oh no, not right now". I run

> call Churchianity, which is what so many church-

> (sounds German), but I wouldn't put it past the NWO guys to try to repeat history

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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 14:48:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> | Subject: Re: I'm here! To: [email protected]

> On the pole shift idea, I just got an email out

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From: [email protected] | To: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: I'm here! Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 18:19:11 -0400

So much more I'd like to say, but for now some short responses:

I am only mediochre in physics. I love it more or less, but the textbooks lay me out every time. If I can get a good speaker to break it down in laymans terms, then I almost always understand it. The ideas presented above were taken from a few different sources.. but mostly from Missler's audio series: Beyond Perception (http://www.khouse.org/6640/technical/BP024.html). You'll like this if you like science stuff. Theory of implication of dimensions makes great sense. Example.. in a 1-dimensional universe, everything is essentially a line, in the x direction. If you are able to bend that line, then by implication, you are moving into the next dimension up (the "y"). Now in a 2D universe, you can only have flat shapes with zero thickness.. but if you bend or stretch those shapes into the "z" direction, you imply that dimension#3 must exist. Same thing with 3D. Extending 3D matter implies position withing the 3d universe.. and movement between those positions implies time... poof.. a 4th dimension. Now Time has been, in theory, been proven to be manipulable, but quite impossible with current technology.. but if it is manipulable, then a 5th dimension must exist if the pattern holds. Time is a funny dimension because humans have the ability to see and travel both forward AND backward in dimensions 1,2 and 3.. but as for the 4th dimension of time, we can see backward, but not forward.. and can travel forward but not backward.... wierd! If 4D is that wierd, then how strange will dimensions 5+ be?!!

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From: [email protected] | To: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: I'm here! Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 12:05:38 -0400

I've hard parts of Beyond Perception, but I don't remember him addressing this issue. I'll have to listen to the whole thing one of these days.

Gosh darn it. I double checked Beyond Perception and that may not have been it. It was either "Beyond Perception", "Beyond Space and time" or "Stretching the heavens". I absolutely know it was a missler audio series though where I stumbled on those ideas.

This nicely explains the Bible story of Elisha and his terrified servant! (2Kings 6)

15 When the servant of the man of God got up and

went out early the next morning, an army with

horses and chariots had surrounded the city.

"Oh, my lord, what shall we do?" the servant asked.
¹⁶ "Don't be afraid," the prophet answered. "Those who

are with us are more than those who are with them."
¹⁷ And Elisha prayed, "O LORD , open his eyes so he may

see." Then the LORD opened the servant's eyes, and

he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots

of fire all around Elisha.

..I would certainly like to have this visual sensitiviy into the 5th(?) dimension as Elisha did! Easy enough for God to temporarily grant this sensitivity to the servant to calm him down. Missler has spoken much about the time dimension.. how it is possible for people who died 3000 years ago and people who die next week might actually arrive in heaven at the same time. I think I can see his point. It's hard for us humans to visualize dimensions beyond time. My pet trick for visualizing the 5th dimension is to imagine a huge warehouse type building.. with a very loooooong table. On the table is a model of every spot on the earth (kind of like that model of the town in the movie Beetlejuice.. except on a worldwide (or even universal scale)). As one walks down the length of the table, the model will progress thru time into different time periods.. and just as Beetlejuice was able to do, one with the proper ability could jump in and out of the model into and out of any time-period, to and from any point on earth (or the universe). This imaginative model helps me cope with how God can see can see the future, how God/angels can jump into any time period and also how dead believers from all time periods can arrive in heaven at the same moment. All the time periods are happening concurrently.. but they are not occuring in terms of time (as we know it). A dimension cannot be bound by itself. A dimension can only be bound by the next higher dimension. There must be some property of the 5th dimension which makes time travel quite easy for 5th dimensional beings.

Speaking of dimensions.. could the "mansions" that Christ is preparing for us be complete dimensions for us to abide in (like the holodeck on Star Trek?) This is a complete conjecture, and I have no evidence to support, but Christ did say, "in my house are many mansions".. and "I go to prepare a place for you". I dont really suppose that Christ is building opulent "projects" for us. I think his thinking is much grander than that. I would love to have an entire dimension of places and planets to explore and discover, with the ability to visit my friends' dimensions too. I often lament the fact that we exist in the current time here on Earth. There's no more frontiers to discover, except space, which will be out of our reach during our lifetimes.. and we humans are largely locked into small territories by economics and politics. Perhaps this is just the romantic adventurer in me.. but it's fun to speculate about.

Matt27:

50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he

gave up his spirit. ⁵¹At that moment the curtain of the

temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth

shook and the rocks split. ⁵²The tombs broke open and the

bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection

they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

If these "many people" are all the saints from Adam to the thief, then that's got to be ALOT of people (4000 years worth of saints).. so why no records of these events in other cultures around the world? Even more than that.. If it was all of them, then it certainly seems to me that the Gospel writers would have made much more of it and would have used the word "ALL" instead of "many". I think you are on the right track interpreting the 24 elders of Revelation. Couldn't those elders be the various Old Testament heros like Enoch, Noah, Elijah, Elisha, Moses, David.. etc?

Concerning your thoughts on the secret acension of Jesus:

I had not seen that before. After reading it over several times, I think there's definitely something there! As I was praying for the ability to interpret this properly, something crossed my mind. Rev 6:9-11 claims that the souls under the altar were given "white robes". There are also other references to white robes in Rev 7 (also elsewhere: Mark 16:5). Could it be that these white robes are the new bodies we are destined to receive, which are interdimensional in nature and able to shift in and out of space-time? Could it be that a resurrected soul remains in the spirit until he stands before the throne of God and is gifted with this new body (Luke 21:36)? If this is close to correct, then in John 20:17, when Jesus says "do not hold me", could Jesus have still been in his spirit only body, and his warning to Mary was for her benefit? (she might have thought him to be a demon, ghost or hallucination if her embrace had passed thru the spirit image she was seeing). If Jesus was on his way back from his preaching in Sheol he was still in spirit, and was not yet given his white robe (interdimensional body). After eight days, he had, like you suggest, probably ascended, received the new body and returned one more time to confirm the disciples final commission. This line of thinking explains neatly I think the souls under the altar concept in Rev 6:9-11 and also jibes with the rapture - as well as the appearance of multitudes in heaven (Rev 7) who are mysteriously given white robes! (we initially are snatched away in the spirit, then stand before the throne BEFORE we are ultimately given white robes - then we, with powerful interdimensional bodies return with Christ as his awesome entourage at the 2nd coming). The interdimensionality of this process also plays into the interference/disturbance scenario with lower dimensions and the potential for shifts and quakes in the 3D continuum. I wish I had more scientific evidence on this conjecture, but perhaps thats not possible for this type of discussion.

Tony

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From: [email protected] | To: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> Subject: Magog thoughts Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:44:47 -0400

 

Ezekiel 38:8

After many days you will be called to arms. In future

years you will invade a land that has recovered from

war, whose people were gathered from many nations to

the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate.

They had been brought out from the nations, and now

all of them live in safety.

T: During the tribulation, is Israel dwelling in safety? I thought the whole point of calling it the tribulation is because it is 'the time of Jacob's trouble'? I would see a better fulfillment of this in a future where Israel is involved in a short war, probably with Arab neighbors (Is 17?), which is probably quickly quenched by UN peacekeepers and peace is enforced by UN troops for awhile. Not hard evidence, but pretty good circumstantially.

Ezekiel 39:9

Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out

and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up-the small

and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs

and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel.

T: This seems strange to mention seven years unless the magog event occurs near the beginning of the tribulation. Again, not hard evidence, but very good circumstantially.

However, this event cannot happen precisely at the beginning of the tribulation because the beginning is started by the antichrist bringing about peace in Israel. This treaty would mean nothing if it is broken immediately afterward. It won't be until 3 1/2 years that the treaty is broken.

This means that this battle occurs before the tribulation(?). While it is purely speculation on my part, I believe that this is the final straw that leaves everyone crying out for peace and the perfect setting for the antichrist to step in and give it to the nations.

Think about this.. If you map out the timelines between revelation and daniel, you end up with 2 time periods AFTER the tribulation... a set of 30 days, and then after that a set of 45 days. What happens during these sets which occur AFTER Christ returns? Could one of these be the TRUE endpoints of the 2520 days? Look at it another way..

Rapture happens at time A

30 days later Magog happens at time B

then 45 days later, Antichrist introduces the peace treaty

.

.

At time A + 2520 days, Christ returns

At time B + 2520, Antichrist gathers the nations for Armegeddon

At time C + 2520, Antichrist is defeated and thrown into the lake of fire

..Now this is purely speculation, but it demonstrates some points. Can the 30-days and 45-days time-sets on the tail end of the tribulation give us any clue as to the event timings on the front end? Will these issues play into the confusion about when the tribulation actually really started so as to make the Christ-return-day still up in the air even with all the formulas contained in the Bible?

Thoughts are welcome.. but I think the angle you are getting at is still valid..... are we really sure that the Magog events are 100% near the beginning of the Tribulation? I have to say I am also not 100% sure.. but I would say I'm probably 90% sure.

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Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:37:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> | Subject: Re: Magog thoughts To: [email protected]

 

Thanks a lot for your input! My comments are below in bold.

Ezekiel 38:8

After many days you will be called to arms. In future

years you will invade a land that has recovered from

war, whose people were gathered from many nations to

the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate.

They had been brought out from the nations, and now

all of them live in safety.

T: During the tribulation, is Israel dwelling in safety? I thought the whole point of calling it the tribulation is because it is 'the time of Jacob's trouble'? I would see a better fulfillment of this in a future where Israel is involved in a short war, probably with Arab neighbors (Is 17?), which is probably quickly quenched by UN peacekeepers and peace is enforced by UN troops for awhile. Not hard evidence, but pretty good circumstantially.

I'm going to have to differ. I don't see ANY way this prophecy is fulfilled in the current or near-term climate, or any time before or during the tribulation period. According to Ezekiel 38, the land of Israel or those living in the "center of the earth" are living securely. Let's see how many times it says they are living in security:

38:8 After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come to a land restored from the sword, with many peoples gathered on the mountains of Israel that had long lain waste. Its people were brought out from the peoples, and all of them are living securely.

38:11 You will say, "I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will come to those living quietly in safety, all of them living without walls, and without bars and gates, 38:12 to capture spoil and seize plunder, to turn my hand against the inhabited waste places and against the people gathered from the nations, who are acquiring cattle and goods, who live at the center of the earth."

38:14 "Therefore, prophesy, son of man, and say to Gog: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On that day when my people Israel are living securely, will you not know

Currently, Israel is not without walls, bars or gates, nor are they living anywhere near securely, in safety or quietly. And I think you would agree with me that this sort of scenario is NOT possible in the near term. And as you correctly state, the time of Jacob's trouble, or Daniel's 70^th week, is a time of terror for Israel. So, is there any way possible this prophecy is could be fulfilled now, in the near future, or in Daniel's 70^th week? The answer is no. Also, note that it says this will happen in the "latter years", but "latter" relative to what? The end of the millennial reign or prior to it?

Even with the explanation of the UN going in there and restoring some sort of peace after a major war, I still don't see this prophecy being fulfilled. There will still be walls, bars and gates, and they will still not be living "quietly" or in "safety".

Ezekiel 39:9

Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out

and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up-the small

and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs

and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel.

T: This seems strange to mention seven years unless the magog event occurs near the beginning of the tribulation. Again, not hard evidence, but very good circumstantially.

However, this event cannot happen precisely at the beginning of the tribulation because the beginning is started by the antichrist bringing about peace in Israel. This treaty would mean nothing if it is broken immediately afterward. It won't be until 3 1/2 years that the treaty is broken.

This means that this battle occurs before the tribulation(?). While it is purely speculation on my part, I believe that this is the final straw that leaves everyone crying out for peace and the perfect setting for the antichrist to step in and give it to the nations.

The seven year reference is interesting, and everyone immediately equates it to Daniel's 70^th week. In all honesty, when will Israel find time to burn weapons and put markers by bones during a time when the AC is supposed to be terrorizing and killing them? When mountains asteroids are hitting the earth? When earthquakes and pole shifts and hailstones are falling? It just doesn't fit for me.

Think about this.. If you map out the timelines between revelation and daniel, you end up with 2 time periods AFTER the tribulation... a set of 30 days, and then after that a set of 45 days. What happens during these sets which occur AFTER Christ returns? Could one of these be the TRUE endpoints of the 2520 days? Look at it another way..

Rapture happens at time A

30 days later Magog happens at time B

then 45 days later, Antichrist introduces the peace treaty

.

.

At time A + 2520 days, Christ returns

At time B + 2520, Antichrist gathers the nations for Armegeddon

At time C + 2520, Antichrist is defeated and thrown into the lake of fire

..Now this is purely speculation, but it demonstrates some points. Can the 30-days and 45-days time-sets on the tail end of the tribulation give us any clue as to the event timings on the front end? Will these issues play into the confusion about when the tribulation actually really started so as to make the Christ-return-day still up in the air even with all the formulas contained in the Bible?

I believe you are referring to the 1,260 days in Daniel. Or is it times, time and dividing of time? I don't have as good a memory of verses in Daniel as I do other passages. Anyway, we know the AC will rule for 1,260 from both Revelation and Daniel. Then, I think reference is made to 1290 and then 1,335 days. People like Perry Stone have tried to map this out by the feasts of Israel. It goes something like this:

Rapture: Feast of Trumpets

2^nd Coming: Yom Kippur

Millennial Reign begins: Feast of Tabernacles

Temple dedication: Feast of Dedication (45 days after Tabernacles)

I'm going off memory on this, so the above may not be exactly right. But the way he explained it made a lot of sense. The logic behind it is that Christ fulfilled the first four feasts through his life already, and the final three major feasts will also have fulfillment through him. I'm sure you have heard of the feasts of Israel theories on prophetic timing, right?

Your use of A, B and C took me back to Algebra days, which is not a welcome thought! Actually, I did good in Algebra compared to the rest of the people in my class, and I use it a lot in Excel spreadsheets. As for your idea of the 30 and 45 day time periods giving us clues to the beginning, I think you are probably correct, but it may have more to do with the timing of feasts rather than wars.

Thoughts are welcome.. but I think the angle you are getting at is still valid..... are we really sure that the Magog events are 100% near the beginning of the Tribulation? I have to say I am also not 100% sure.. but I would say I'm probably 90% sure.

Well, since I asked for your input, I suppose I should tell you why I asked you the question. Once again, I'm starting to differ from the traditional Hal Lindsey and Chuck Missler viewpoint on the "Magog Alliance". The major reason is because of the description of safety and security I referred to above. But another major reason is because Ezekiel says God will destroy them like this:

38:22 I will enter into judgment with him with pestilence and bloodshed. I will rain on him and on his troops and on the many peoples who are with him with torrential rains, hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

And Revelation 20 says they will be destroyed like this:

20:9 They went up on the broad plain of the earth and encircled the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and devoured them completely.

So, we have both accounts saying they are destroyed by fire, with Ezekiel giving us much more detail. Also, Revelation tells us:

20:7 Now when the thousand years are finished, Satan will be released from his prison 20:8 and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to bring them together for the battle. They are as numerous as the grains of sand in the sea.

Notice it say he will bring them together for "THE battle"? What is "the" battle? I would think that Armaggedon would be considered "the" battle if any would. They are described as being as numerous as the sand in the sea. I guess that over 1,000 years, the earth was able to repopulate - maybe Jesus abolishes birth control in his reign? J 1,000 years is a long time when you really think about it.

Another interesting point is that right after Ezekiel 38-39, chapter 40 goes into Ezekiel's vision of the new temple, and the rest of the book goes into the new Jerusalem, the tabernacle, etc. When you look at the Gog and Magog reference in Revelation, after it you have a description of the new heaven, new temple, new Jerusalem. They flow very well together.

But I guess the thing that really gets me the most is that Revelation 20 calls them "Gog and Magog", and Ezekiel calls them "Gog and Magog". How much more obvious can it get? These are the only two references in the Bible of Gog and Magog together, so to me it is clear that this is the Ezekiel 38-39 battle right here in Revelation 20.

This is why my initial question was if you knew of anything in these two chapters that demanded the Magog attack be before or during the tribulation period. If you can see any other reasons why it must be, let me know. I'm now leaning heavily toward the idea that the "Magog Alliance" of Ezekiel 38-39 is "the battle" described in Revelation 20. Ezekiel simply gives us more details. Tony, can you save me from going over the edge and falling into the abyss of breaking away from the Hal Lindsey/Chuck Missler models of the tribulation period?! By the way, Perry Stone also shares the traditional Lindsey/Missler of Ezekiel 38-39.

Dave

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From: [email protected] | To: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Magog thoughts Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:57:29 -0400

 

OK! Now we're getting into some serious stuff. I see your points and for now, I don't discount them. I can see possibilities for magog events both before as well as much further into the trib.. and I'm starting to come full circle on an old pet theory of mine from way back.

-Would Satan want to stage a false series of events so

as to appear as fulfillment of biblical prophecies?

-If the time of Jacob's trouble is a time of terror for

Israel, where's the window of opportunity to rebuild

the 3rd Temple?

-If Satan is to shrewdly impersonate the second coming

of Christ so as to appear to really be Christ returning,

he'll have to manufacture a large conflict to appear as

'armegeddon', so that he can appear, and put a stop to it

This will appear to be the end of the tribulation, but in

reality, people thinking they have survived it will actually

be entering the real chaos and will be worshipping that

which they think is Christ?

Can the 3rd temple reconstruction begin after the tribulation starts? I have heard estimates that it will take at least a year or possibly as many as 3 to fully construct. Pretty tight time schedule if everything starts after the tribulation treaty is signed.

I have been thinking that a series of events will begin to be fulfilled by Satan so as to appear to be the tribulation period. This would nicely set the stage to get the 3rd Temple underway, and demoralize pretribbers who would see trib events seem to be all around, yet they were not raptured. I could even see rapture events being falsified by the forces of evil by showing video footage (or actual bluebeam technology) of people disappearing (small numbers) which would really hit weak christians hard. A fake time period up front would really serve Satan I think and set the stage to really have a great deception going by the time the 6th seal comes around and the real trib begins.. in fact, the 6th seal might even be the trigger for Satan launch his 'armegeddon' in the chaotic aftermath if the 6th seal events.. and when he steps in, perhaps even in a supernatural way(?), he will be seen by many as Christ himself.

..So what do this have to do with your points about the placement of Magog events?? Perhaps very little.... but perhaps, a staged-tribulation might provide a time frame for Israel to be at peace for a few years? perhaps while the 3rd temple is being constructed? Then when the real tribulation begins, the 3rd temple is already complete? and Israel has just experienced a short window of a few years of peace? the calm before the storm?

I could go on an on, but for now I will close. I want to get to the other email tonight too.

Regards

Tony

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Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:35:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "David Lowe" <[email protected]> | Subject: Re: Magog thoughts To: [email protected]

 

Comments below in bold:

OK! Now we're getting into some serious stuff. I see your points and for now, I don't discount them. I can see possibilities for magog events both before as well as much further into the trib.. and I'm starting to come full circle on an old pet theory of mine from way back.

To me, the Magog alliance does not fit pre-70^th week events, if we are truly pre-70^th week right now. Just today, I read a news story where the United Nations voted 144-4 for Israel to stop building security fences in Judea and Samaria. But Jerusalem's mayor Ehud Olmert said despite the resolution, the fences will continue to be built. This sure doesn't sound like a land lively in quiet safety and security as described in Eze 38-39, does it? Then, add in daily suicide bombings and shootings, and the Hal Lindsey model becomes even more ludicrous.

-Would Satan want to stage a false series of events so

as to appear as fulfillment of biblical prophecies?

I've thought this in the past. I think it is a good possibility. We know he will have a counterfeit trinity in the AC (God), the false prophet (Christ) and himself (the Spirit). We also know he will produce a mark similar to the ones on the 144,000, who were protected from the demon locust torment. Maybe the selling point will be that, if you take the mark, you'll be protected from a RETURN visit from the demon locust torment (when men WANT TO die, but can't - sounds painful). If painful, would people not accept the mark to avoid this?

-If the time of Jacob's trouble is a time of terror for

Israel, where's the window of opportunity to rebuild

the 3rd Temple?

I believe it could be Elijah, and/or the two witnesses, the direct the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem during the 1^st half of Daniel's 70^th week. The 144,000, meanwhile, evangelize Israel.

-If Satan is to shrewdly impersonate the second coming

of Christ so as to appear to really be Christ returning,

he'll have to manufacture a large conflict to appear as

'armegeddon', so that he can appear, and put a stop to it

This will appear to be the end of the tribulation, but in

reality, people thinking they have survived it will actually

be entering the real chaos and will be worshipping that

which they think is Christ?

This is a mind-boggling scenario, especially when we don't even have the real scenario figured out yet. But I think you are definitely onto something. I see a book in your future.

Can the 3rd temple reconstruction begin after the tribulation starts? I have heard estimates that it will take at least a year or possibly as many as 3 to fully construct. Pretty tight time schedule if everything starts after the tribulation treaty is signed.

I believe, with the building and the dedication ceremonies that must be performed under Jewish law, the time to build it is almost exactly 3.5 years. Maybe the rebuilding starts right after beginning of the 70^th week?

I have been thinking that a series of events will begin to be fulfilled by Satan so as to appear to be the tribulation period. This would nicely set the stage to get the 3rd Temple underway, and demoralize pretribbers who would see trib events seem to be all around, yet they were not raptured. I could even see rapture events being falsified by the forces of evil by showing video footage (or actual bluebeam technology) of people disappearing (small numbers) which would really hit weak christians hard. A fake time period up front would really serve Satan I think and set the stage to really have a great deception going by the time the 6th seal comes around and the real trib begins.. in fact, the 6th seal might even be the trigger for Satan launch his 'armegeddon' in the chaotic aftermath if the 6th seal events.. and when he steps in, perhaps even in a supernatural way(?), he will be seen by many as Christ himself.

Ok, this sounds too good. Did you get this idea from a book or is this original? If so, you should write a book. If not you, I will steal the idea from you! Truthfully, I'll bet anything Satan has thought of this, and would love to plan it out just like you are saying. However, he is not omniscient and doesn't know when or how all this will kick off. So his actions will largely be spontaneous/impromptu, scrambling resources together when the rapture happens to set his plan in motion. Or, maybe as you suggest, he will stage a rapture with this bluebeam technology, and true Christians who think they may be left behind will really freak. This is cutting edge speculation, so I'll definitely withhold judgment on the possibilities.

..So what do this have to do with your points about the placement of Magog events?? Perhaps very little.... but perhaps, a staged-tribulation might provide a time frame for Israel to be at peace for a few years? perhaps while the 3rd temple is being constructed? Then when the real tribulation begins, the 3rd temple is already complete? and Israel has just experienced a short window of a few years of peace? the calm before the storm?

I don't see any chance for a window of peace in the near future for Israel - until the Lord comes back.

I could go on an on, but for now I will close. I want to get to the other email tonight too.

Dave

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