Interviews

Interview with Vibe 02/96
From: Vibe, February 1996
Interviewer: Kevin Powell

Vibe: Did you move to Death Row for some sort of protection?

Tupac: Hell, no. There's nobody in the business strong enough to scare me. I'm with Death Row 'cause they not scared either.

When I was in jail, Suge was the only one who used to see me. Nigga used to fly a private plane, all the way to New York, and spend time with me. He got his lawyer to look into all my cases. Suge supported me, whatever I needed. When I got out of jail, he had a private plane for me, a limo, five police officers for security. I said, "I need a house for my moms"; I got a house for my moms.

I promised him, "Suge, I'm gonna make Death Row the biggest label in the whole world. I'm gonna make it bigger than Snoop even made it." Not stepping on Snoop's toes; he did a lot of work. Him, Dogg Pound, Nate Dogg, Dre, all of them-they made Death Row what it is today. I'm gonna take it to the next level.

Is it true your marriage was annulled?

Yeah. I moved too fast. I can only be committed to my work or my wife. I didn't want to hurt her; she's a good person. So we just took it back to where we were before.

I wanna put a rumor to rest. Did something happen to you in prison?

Kill that rumor. That got started either by some guards or by some jealous niggas. I don't have to talk about whether or not I got raped in jail. If I wouldn't lay down on the floor for two niggas with pistols, what the fuck make you think I would bend over for a nigga without weapons? That don't even fit my character.

Do you or Death Row have any beef with Puffy or Biggie?

[Laughs] I don't got no beef with nobody, man. I let the music speak for itself. If you know, you know; if you don't, you don't. Ain't no mystery-niggas know what time it is.

So is this an East Coast/West Coast thing?

It's not like I got a beef with New York or nothing, but I do have problems. And I'm representing the West Side now. There's people disrespecting the West Coast-"It's only gangsta shit, it ain't creative enough, it's fucking up the art form"-even though we made more money for this art form than all those other motherfuckers. The artists now who selling records stole our style. Listen to 'em-Biggie is a Brooklyn nigga's dream of being West Coast.

You used the word jealousy-

Let's be real. Be real, Kev. Doesn't Biggie sound like me? Is that my style coming out of his mouth? Just New York-tized. That big player shit. He's not no player-I'm the player.

What about all the kids who look up to you and Biggie who don't understand all this?

Regardless of all this stuff-no matter what he say, what I say-Biggie's still my brother. He's black. He's my brother. We just have a conflict of interest. We have a difference of opinion.

How can we stop this disagreement before someone gets killed?

I don't want it to be about violence. I want it to be about money. I told Suge my idea: Bad Boy make a record with all the East Coast niggas. Death Row make a record with all the West Coast niggas. We drop the records on the same day. Whoever sell the most records, that's who the bombest. And then we stop battling. We could do pay-per-views for charity, for the community.

What about Death Row and Bad Boy doing something together?

That's as together as we can get. For money. What about getting together as black men? We are together as black men-they over there, we over here. If we really gonna live in peace, we all can't be in the same room. Yellow M&M's don't move with green M&M's. I mean, you don't put M&M's peanuts with M&M's plain. You hear me?

What about this hostility that people are feeding into? Can you and Suge and Puffy and Biggie sit down-

But that's corny. That's just for everybody else-they just wanna hear what the conversation is about. I know my life's not in danger. They shouldn't feel like they gotta worry about me. Puffy wrote me while I was in jail. I wrote him back that I don't got no problems with him. I don't want it to be fighting, I just wanna make my money. You can't tell me I've gotta sit down and hug and kiss niggas to make everybody else feel good. If there was beef, niggas would know.

Your new album is called All Eyes on Me. Can you describe it in a phrase?

Relentless. It's like, so-uncensored. I do not suggest that children buy this album. There's a lot of cursing. There's a lot of raw game that needs to be discussed in a family moment before you let them listen.

What would you suggest parents tell their kids to prepare them for it?

Explain to them that because I'm talking about it doesn't mean that it's okay. This comes from someone who just spent 11 and a half months in a maximum-security jail, got shot five times, and was wrongly convicted of a crime he didn't commit. This is not from a normal person.

Do you feel that you're a leader?

I think so. I think I'm a natural-born leader because I'm a good soldier. I know how to bow down to authority if it's authority that I respect. If Colin Powell was president, I'd follow him.

I wanna get into politics. That's the way for us to overcome a lot of our obstacles. Nothing can stop power or recognize power but power. If Bosnia disrespects America, they gonna go to war. 'Cause America wants its respect. And we sit down after they recognize that they should respect America. Before we can communicate, there has to be mutual respect. And we don't have that.

Where's Tupac gonna be in the year 2000?

I'll be much calmer than I am now.

Why aren't you calm right now?

You know-how would you feel if someone violated you? I was set up. I would rather have been shot straight-up in cold blood-but to be set up? By people who you trusted? That's bad.

Why do you think so many young black men around the country identify with you?

'Cause we all soldiers, unfortunately. Everybody's at war with different things. With ourselves. Some are at war with the establishment. Some of us are at war with our own communities.

What are you at war with?

Different things at different times. My own heart sometimes. There's two niggas inside me. One wants to live in peace, and the other won't die unless he's free.

What about the Tupac who's the son of a Black Panther, and Tupac the rapper?

Tupac the son of the Black Panther, and Tupac the rider. Those are the two people inside of me. My mom and them envisioned this world for us to live in, and strove to make that world. So I was raised off those ideals, to want those.

But in my own life, I saw that that world was impossible to have. It's a world in our head. It's a world we think about at Christmas and Thanksgiving. I had to teach my mother how to live in this world like it is today. She taught me how to live in that world that we have to strive for. And for that I'm forever grateful. She put heaven in my heart.

Interview with Vibe 04/95
Date: Vibe, April 1995
Interviewer: Kevin Powell

Vibe: How do you feel after everything you've been through these past few weeks?

Tupac: Well, the first two days in prison, I had to go through what life is like when you've been smoking weed for as long as I have and then you stop. Emotionally, it was like I didn't know myself. I was sitting in a room, like there was two people in the room, evil and good. That was the hardest part. After that, the weed was out of me. Then every day I started doing, like, a thousand push-ups for myself. I was reading whole books in one day, and writing, and that was putting me in a peace of mind. Then I started seeing my situation and what got me here. Even though I'm innocent of the charge they gave me, I'm not innocent in terms of the way I was acting.

Could you tell me specifically what you mean?

I'm just as guilty for not doing nothing as I am for doing things. Not with this case, but just in my life. I had a job to do and I never showed up. I was so scared of this responsibility that I was running away from it. But I see now that whether I show up for work or not, the evil forces are going to be at me. They're going to come 100 percent, so if I don't be 100 percent pure-hearted, I'm going to lose. And that's why I'm losing. When I got in here, all the prisoners was, like, "Fuck that gangsta rapper." I'm not a gangsta rapper. I rap about things that happen to me. I got shot five times, you know what I'm saying? People was trying to kill me. It was really real like that. I don't see myself being special; I just see myself having more responsibilities than the next man. People look to me to do things for them, to have answers. I wasn't having them because my brain was half dead from smoking so much weed. I'd be in my hotel room, smoking too much, drinking, going to clubs, just being numb. That was being in jail to me. I wasn't happy at all on the streets. Nobody could say they saw me happy.

When I spoke to you a year ago, you said that if you ended up in jail, your spirit would die. You sound like you're saying the opposite now.

That was the addict speaking. The addict knew if I went to jail, then it couldn't live. The addict in Tupac is dead. The excuse maker in Tupac is dead. The vengeful Tupac is dead. The Tupac that would stand by and let dishonorable things happen is dead. God let me live for me to do something extremely extraordinary, and that's what I have to do. Even if they give me the maximum sentence, that's still my job.

Can you take us back to that night at Quad Recording Studios in Times Square?

The night of the shooting? Sure. Ron G. is a DJ out here in New York. He's, like, "Pac, I want you to come to my house and lay this rap down for my tapes." I said, "All right, I'll come for free." So I went to his house-me, Stretch, and a couple other homeboys. After I laid the song, I got a page from this guy Booker, telling me he wanted me to rap on Little Shawn's record. Now, this guy I was going to charge, because I could see that they was just using me, so I said, "All right, you give me seven G's and I'll do the song." He said, "I've got the money. Come." I stopped off to get some weed, and he paged me again. "Where you at? Why you ain't coming?" I'm, like, "I'm coming, man, hold on."

Did you know this guy?

I met him through some rough characters I knew. He was trying to get legitimate and all that, so I thought I was doing him a favor. But when I called him back for directions, he was, like, "I don't have the money." I said, "If you don't have the money, I'm not coming." He hung up the phone, then called me back: "I'm going to call [Uptown Entertainment CEO] Andre Harrell and make sure you get the money, but I'm going to give you the money out of my pocket." So I said, "All right, I'm on my way." As we're walking up to the building, somebody screamed from up the top of the studio. It was Little Caesar, Biggie's [the Notorious B.I.G.] sideman. That's my homeboy. As soon as I saw him, all my concerns about the situation were relaxed.

So you're saying that going into it...

I felt nervous because this guy knew somebody I had major beef with. I didn't want to tell the police, but I can tell the world. Nigel had introduced me to Booker. Everybody knew I was short on money. All my shows were getting canceled. All my money from my records was going to lawyers; all the movie money was going to my family. So I was doing this type of stuff, rapping for guys and getting paid.

Who's this guy Nigel?

I was kicking it with him the whole time I was in New York doing Above the Rim. He came to me. He said, "I'm going to look after you. You don't need to get in no more trouble."

Doesn't Nigel also go by the name of Trevor?

Right. There's a real Trevor, but Nigel took on both aliases, you understand? So that's who I was kicking with-I got close to them. I used to dress in baggies and sneakers. They took me shopping; that's when I bought my Rolex and all my jewels. They made me mature. They introduced me to all these gangsters in Brooklyn. I met Nigel's family, went to his kid's birthday party-I trusted him, you know what I'm saying? I even tried to get Nigel in the movie, but he didn't want to be on film. That bothered me. I don't know any nigga that didn't want to be in the movies.

Can we come back to the shooting? Who was with you that night?

I was with my homeboy Stretch, his man Fred, and my sister's boyfriend, Zayd. Not my bodyguard; I don't have a bodyguard. We get to the studio, and there's a dude outside in army fatigues with his hat low on his face. When we walked to the door, he didn't look up. I've never seen a black man not acknowledge me one way or the other, either with jealousy or respect. But this guy just looked to see who I was and turned his face down. It didn't click because I had just finished smoking chronic. I'm not thinking something will happen to me in the lobby. While we're waiting to get buzzed in, I saw a dude sitting at a table reading a newspaper. He didn't look up either.

These are both black men?

Black men in their thirties. So first I'm, like, These dudes must be security for Biggie, because I could tell they were from Brooklyn from their army fatigues. But then I said, Wait a minute. Even Biggie's homeboys love me, why don't they look up? I pressed the elevator button, turned around, and that's when the dudes came out with the guns-two identical 9 mms. "Don't nobody move. Everybody on the floor. You know what time it is. Run your shit." I was, like, What should I do? I'm thinking Stretch is going to fight; he was towering over those niggas. From what I know about the criminal element, if niggas come to rob you, they always hit the big nigga first. But they didn't touch Stretch; they came straight to me. Everybody dropped to the floor like potatoes, but I just froze up. It wasn't like I was being brave or nothing; I just could not get on the floor. They started grabbing at me to see if I was strapped. They said, "Take off your jewels," and I wouldn't take them off. The light-skinned dude, the one that was standing outside, was on me. Stretch was on the floor, and the dude with the newspaper was holding the gun on him. He was telling the light-skin dude, "Shoot that motherfucker! Fuck it!" Then I got scared, because the dude had the gun to my stomach. All I could think about was piss bags and shit bags. I drew my arm around him to move the gun to my side. He shot and the gun twisted and that's when I got hit the first time. I felt it in my leg; I didn't know I got shot in my balls. I dropped to the floor. Everything in my mind said, Pac, pretend you're dead. It didn't matter. They started kicking me, hitting me. I never said, "Don't shoot!" I was quiet as hell. They were snatching my shit off me while I was laying on the floor. I had my eyes closed, but I was shaking, because the situation had me shaking. And then I felt something on the back of my head, something real strong. I thought they stomped me or pistol-whipped me and they were stomping my head against the concrete. I saw white, just white. I didn't hear nothing, I didn't feel nothing, and I said, I'm unconscious. But I was conscious. And then I felt it again, and I could hear things now and I could see things and they were bringing me back to consciousness. Then they did it again, and I couldn't hear nothing. And I couldn't see nothing; it was just all white. And then they hit me again, and I could hear things and I could see things and I knew I was conscious again.

Did you ever hear them say their names?

No. No. But they knew me, or else they would never check for my gun. It was like they were mad at me. I felt them kicking me and stomping me; they didn't hit nobody else. It was, like, "Ooh, motherfucker, ooh, aah"-they were kicking hard. So I'm going unconscious, and I'm not feeling no blood on my head or nothing. The only thing I felt was my stomach hurting real bad. My sister's boyfriend turned me over and said, "Yo, are you all right?" I was, like, "Yes, I'm hit, I'm hit." And Fred is saying he's hit, but that was the bullet that went through my leg. So I stood up and I went to the door and-the shit that fucked me up-as soon as I got to the door, I saw a police car sitting there. I was, like, "Uh-oh, the police are coming, and I didn't even go upstairs yet." So we jumped in the elevator and went upstairs. I'm limping and everything, but I don't feel nothing. It's numb. When we got upstairs, I looked around, and it scared the shit out of me.

Why?

Because Andre Harrell was there, Puffy [Bad Boy Entertainment CEO Sean "Puffy" Combs] was there, Biggie... there was about 40 niggas there. All of them had jewels on. More jewels than me. I saw Booker, and he had this look on his face like he was surprised to see me. Why? I had just beeped the buzzer and said I was coming upstairs. Little Shawn bust out crying. I went, Why is Little Shawn crying, and I got shot? He was crying uncontrollably, like, "Oh my God, Pac, you've got to sit down!" I was feeling weird, like, Why do they want to make me sit down?

Because five bullets had passed through your body.

I didn't know I was shot in the head yet. I didn't feel nothing. I opened my pants, and I could see the gunpowder and the hole in my Karl Kani drawers. I didn't want to pull them down to see if my dick was still there. I just saw a hole and went, "Oh shit. Roll me some weed." I called my girlfriend and I was, like, "Yo, I just got shot. Call my mother and tell her." Nobody approached me. I noticed that nobody would look at me. Andre Harrell wouldn't look at me. I had been going to dinner with him the last few days. He had invited me to the set of New York Undercover, telling me he was going to get me a job. Puffy was standing back too. I knew Puffy. He knew how much stuff I had done for Biggie before he came out.

People did see blood on you?

They started telling me, "Your head! Your head is bleeding." But I thought it was just a pistol-whip. Then the ambulance came, and the police. First cop I looked up to see was the cop that took the stand against me in the rape charge. He had a half smile on his face, and he could see them looking at my balls. He said, "What's up, Tupac? How's it hanging?"

When I got to Bellevue Hospital, the doctor was going, "Oh my God!" I was, like, "What? What?" And I was hearing him tell other doctors, "Look at this. This is gunpowder right here." He was talking about my head: "This is the entry wound. This is the exit wound." And when he did that, I could actually feel the holes. I said, "Oh my God. I could feel that." It was the spots that I was blacking out on. And that's when I said, "Oh shit. They shot me in my head." They said, "You don't know how lucky you are. You got shot five times." It was, like, weird. I did not want to believe it. I could only remember that first shot, then everything went blank.

At any point did you think you were going to die?

No. I swear to God. Not to sound creepy or nothing-I felt God cared for me from the first time the niggas pulled the gun out. The only thing that hurt me was that Stretch and them all fell to the floor. The bullets didn't hurt. Nothing hurt until I was recovering. I couldn't walk, I couldn't get up, and my hand was fucked up. I was looking on the news and it was lying about me.

Tell me about some of the coverage that bothered you.

The number one thing that bothered me was that dude that wrote that shit that said I pretended to do it. That I had set it up, it was an act. When I read that, I just started crying like a baby, like a bitch. I could not believe it. It just tore me apart. And then the news was trying to say I had a gun and I had weed on me. Instead of saying I was a victim, they were making it like I did it.

What about all the jokes saying you had lost one of your testicles?

That didn't really bother me, because I was, like, Shit, I'm going to get the last laugh. Because I've got bigger nuts than all these niggas. My doctors are, like, "You can have babies." They told me that the first night, after I got exploratory surgery: "Nothing's wrong. It went through the skin and out the skin." Same thing with my head. Through my skin and out the skin.

Have you had a lot of pain since then?

Yes, I have headaches. I wake up screaming. I've been having nightmares, thinking they're still shooting me. All I see is niggas pulling guns, and I hear the dude saying, "Shoot that motherfucker!" Then I'll wake up sweaty as hell and I'll be, like, Damn, I have a headache. The psychiatrist at Bellevue said that's post-traumatic stress.

Why did you leave Bellevue Hospital?

I left Bellevue the next night. They were helping me, but I felt like a science project. They kept coming in, looking at my dick and shit, and this was not a cool position to be in. I knew my life was in danger. The Fruit of Islam was there, but they didn't have guns. I knew what type of niggas I was dealing with.

So I left Bellevue and went to Metropolitan. They gave me a phone and said, "You're safe here. Nobody knows you're here." But the phone would ring and someone would say, "You ain't dead yet?" I was, like, Damn! Those motherfuckers don't have no mercy. So I checked myself out, and my family took me to a safe spot, somebody who really cared about me in New York City.

Why did you go to court the morning after you were shot?

They came to the bed and said, "Pac, you don't need to go to court." I was, like, no. I felt like if the jury didn't see me, they would think I'm doing a show or some shit. Because they were sequestered and didn't know I got shot. So I knew I had to show up no matter what. I swear to God, the farthest thing from my mind was sympathy. All I could think of was, Stand up and fight for your life like you fight for your life in this hospital.

I sat there in a wheelchair, and the judge was not looking me in my eyes. He never looked me in my eyes the whole trial. So the jury came in, and the way everybody was acting, it was like a regular everyday thing. And I was feeling so miracle-ish that I'm living. And then I start feeling they're going to do what they're going to do. Then I felt numb; I said, I've got to get out of here.

When I left, the cameras were all rushing me and bumping into my leg and shit. I was, like, "You motherfuckers are like vultures." That made me see just the nastiest in the hearts of men. That's why I was looking like that in the chair when they were wheeling me away. I was trying to promise myself to keep my head up for all my people there. But when I saw all that, it made me put my head down; it just took my spirit.

Can we talk about the rape case at all?

Okay. Nigel and Trevor took me to Nell's. When we got there, I was immediately impressed, because it was different than any club I'd been in. It wasn't crowded, there was lots of space, there were beautiful women there. I was meeting Ronnie Lott from the New York Jets and Derrick Coleman from the Nets. They were coming up to me, like, "Pac, we're proud of you." I felt so tall that night, because they were people's heroes and they saying I was their hero. I felt above and beyond, like I was glowing.

Somebody introduced me to this girl. And the only thing I noticed about her: She had a big chest. But she was not attractive; she looked dumpy, like. Money came to me and said, "This girl wants to do more than meet you." I already knew what that meant: She wanted to fuck. I just left them and went to the dance floor by myself. They were playing some Jamaican music, and I'm just grooving.

Then this girl came out and started dancing-and the shit that was weird, she didn't even come to me face-first, she came ass-first. So I'm dancing to this reggae music; you know how sensuous that is. She's touching my dick, she's touching my balls, she opened my zipper, she put her hands on me. There's a little dark part in Nell's, and I see people over there making out already, so she starts pushing me this way. I know what time it is.

We go over in the corner. She's touching me. I lift up my shirt while I'm dancing, showing off my tattoos and everything. She starts kissing my stomach, kissing my chest, licking me and shit. She's going down, and I'm, like, Oh shit. She pulled my dick out; she started sucking my dick on the dance floor. That shit turned me on. I wasn't thinking, like, This is going to be a rape case. I'm thinking, like, This is going to be a good night. You know what I'm saying?

Soon as she finished that-just enough to get me solid, rock-hard-we got off the dance floor. I told Nigel, "I've got to get out of here. I'm about to take her to the hotel. I'll see you all later." Nigel was, like, "No, no, no. I'm going to take you back." We drive to the hotel. We go upstairs and have sex, real quick. As soon as I came, that was it. I was tired, I was drunk, I knew I had to get up early in the morning, so I was, like, "What are you going to do? You can spend the night or you can leave." She left me her number, and everything was cool. Nigel was spending the night in my room all these nights. When he found out she sucked my dick on the floor and we had sex, he and Trevor were livid! Trevor is a big freak; he was going crazy. All he kept asking me was, "D-d-did you fuck in the ass?" He was listening to every single detail. I thought, This is just some guy shit, it's all good.

What happened on the night of the alleged rape?

We had a show to do in New Jersey at Club 88. This dude said, "I'll be there with a limo to pick you up at midnight." We went shopping, we got dressed up, we were all ready. Nigel was saying, "Why don't you give her a call?" So we were all sitting in the hotel, drinking. I'm waiting for the show, and Nigel's, like, "I called her. I mean, she called me, and she's on her way." But I wasn't thinking about her no second time. We were watching TV when the phone rings, and she's downstairs. Nigel gave Man-man, my manager, some money to pay for the cab, and I was, like, "Let that bitch pay for her own cab." She came upstairs looking all nice, dressed all provocative and shit, like she was ready for a prom date.

So we're all sitting there talking, and she's making me uncomfortable, because instead of sitting with Nigel and them, she's sitting on the arm of my chair. And Nigel and Trevor are looking at her like a chicken, like she's, like, food. It's a real uncomfortable situation. So I'm thinking, Okay, I'm going to take her to the room and get a massage. I'm thinking about being with her that night at Nell's. So we get in the room, I'm laying on my stomach, she's massaging my back. I turn around. She starts massaging my front. This lasted for about a half an hour. In between, we would stop and kiss each other. I'm thinking she's about to give me another blow job. But before she could do that, some niggas came in, and I froze up more than she froze up. If she would have said anything, I would have said, "Hold on, let me finish." But I can't say nothing, because she's not saying nothing. How do I look saying, "Hold on"? That would be like I'm making her my girl.

So they came and they started touching her ass. They going, "Oooh, she's got a nice ass." Nigel isn't touching her, but I can hear his voice leading it, like, "Put her panties down, put her pantyhose down." I just got up and walked out the room.

When I went to the other suite, Man-man told me that Talibah, my publicist at the time, had been there for a while and was waiting in the bedroom of that suite. I went to see Talibah and we talked about what she had been doing during the day, then I went and laid down on the couch and went to sleep. When I woke up, Nigel was standing over me going, "Pac, Pac," and all the lights was on in both rooms. The whole mood had changed, you know what I'm saying? I felt like I was drugged. I didn't know how much time had passed. So when I woke up, it was, like, "You're going to the police, you're going to the police." Nigel walks out the room, comes back with the girl. Her clothes is on; ain't nothing tore. She just upset, crying hysterically. "Why you let them do this to me?" She's not making sense. "I came to see you. You let them do this to me." I'm, like, "I don't got time for this shit right here. You got to chill out with that shit. Stop yelling at me and looking at me all crazy." She said, "This not the last time you're going to hear from me," and slammed the door. And Nigel goes, "Don't worry about it, Pac, don't worry. I'll handle it. She just tripping." I asked him what happened, and he was, like, "Too many niggas." You know, I ain't even tripping no more, you know? Niggas start going downstairs, but nobody was coming back upstairs. I'm sitting upstairs smoking weed, like, Where the fuck is everybody at? Then I get a call from Talibah from the lobby saying, "The police is down here."

And that's what landed you in jail. But you're saying that you never did anything?

Never did nothing. Only thing I saw was all three of them in there and that nigga talking about how fat her ass was. I got up, because the nigga sounded sick. I don't know if she's with these niggas, or if she's mad at me for not protecting her. But I know I feel ashamed-because I wanted to be accepted and because I didn't want no harm done to me-I didn't say nothing. How did you feel about women during the trial, and how do you feel about women now?

When the charge first came up, I hated black women. I felt like I put my life on the line. At the time I made "Keep Ya Head Up," nobody had no songs about black women. I put out "Keep Ya Head Up" from the bottom of my heart. It was real, and they didn't defend it. I felt like it should have been women all over the country talking about, "Tupac couldn't have did that." And people was actually asking me, "Did you do it?"

Then, going to trial, I started seeing the black women that was helping me. Now I've got a brand-new vision of them, because in here, it's mostly black female guards. They don't give me no extra favors, but they treat me with human respect. They're telling me, "When you get out of here, you gotta change." They be putting me on the phone with they kids. You know what I'm saying? They just give me love.

What's going to happen if you have to serve time?

If it happens, I got to serve it like a trooper. Of course, my heart will be broke. I be torn apart, but I have to serve it like a trooper.

I understand you recently completed a new album.

Rapping...I don't even got the thrill to rap no more. I mean, in here I don't even remember my lyrics.

But you're putting out the album, right?

Yeah. It's called Me Against the World. So that is my truth. That's my best album yet. And because I already laid it down, I can be free. When you do rap albums, you got to train yourself. You got to constantly be in character. You used to see rappers talking all that hard shit, and then you see them in suits and shit at the American Music Awards. I didn't want to be that type of nigga. I wanted to keep it real, and that's what I thought I was doing. But now that shit is dead. That Thug Life shit...;I did it, I put in my work, I laid it down. But now that shit is dead.

What are your plans after prison?

I'm going to team up with Mike Tyson when we get out. Team up with Monster Kody [now known as Sanyika Shakur] from California. I'm going to start an organization called Us First. I'm going to save these young niggas, because nobody else want to save them. Nobody ever came to save me. They just watch what happen to you. That's why Thug Life to me is dead. If it's real, then let somebody else represent it, because I'm tired of it. I represented it too much. I was Thug Life. I was the only nigga out there putting my life on the line.

Has anybody else been there for you?

Since I've been in here I got about 40 letters. I got little girls sending me money. Everybody telling me that God is with me. People telling me they hate the dudes that shot me, they're going to pray for me. I did get one letter, this dude telling me he wished I was dead. But then I got people looking out for me, like Jada Pinkett, Jasmine Guy, Treach, Mickey Rourke. My label, Interscope Records, has been extremely supportive. Even Madonna.

Can you talk about your relationship with Madonna and Mickey Rourke?

I was letting people dictate who should be my friends. I felt like because I was this big Black Panther type of nigga, I couldn't be friends with Madonna. And so I dissed her, even though she showed me nothing but love. I felt bad, because when I went to jail, I called her and she was the only person that was willing to help me. Of that stature. Same thing with Mickey Rourke-he just befriended me. Not like black and white, just like friend to friend. And from now on, it's not going to be a strictly black thing with me. I even apologized to Quincy Jones for all the stuff I said about him and his wives. I'm apologizing to the Hughes Brothers...but not John Singleton. He's inspiring me to write screenplays, because I want to be his competition. He fired me from Higher Learning and gave my idea to the next actor.

Do you worry about your safety now?

I don't have no fear of death. My only fear is coming back reincarnated. I'm not trying to make people think I'm in here faking it, but my whole life is going to be about saving somebody. I got to represent life. If you saying you going to be real, that's how you be real-be physically fit, be mentally fit. And I want niggas to be educated. You know, I was steering people away from school. You gotta be in school, because through school you can get a job. And if you got a job, then that's how they can't do us like this.

Do you think rap music is going to come under more attack, given what's happened to you?

Oh, definitely. That's why they're doing me like this. Because if they can stop me, they can stop 30 more rappers before they even born. But there's something else I understand now: If we really are saying rap is an art form, then we got to be true to it and be more responsible for our lyrics. If you see everybody dying because of what you saying, it don't matter that you didn't make them die, it just matters that you didn't save them.

You mentioned Marvin Gaye in "Keep Ya Head Up." A lot of people have compared you to him, in terms of your personal conflicts.

That's how I feel. I feel close to Marvin Gaye, Vincent van Gogh.

Why van Gogh?

Because nobody appreciated his work until he was dead. Now it's worth millions. I feel close to him, how tormented he was. Him and Marvin too. That's how I was out there. I'm in jail now, but I'm free. My mind is free. The only time I have problems is when I sleep.

So you're grateful to be where you are now?

It's a gift-straight-up. This is God's will. And everybody that said I wasn't nothing...my whole goal is to just make them ashamed that they wrote me off like that. Because I'm 23 years old. And I might just be my mother's child, but in all reality, I'm everybody's child. You know what I'm saying? Nobody raised me; I was raised in this society. But I'm not going to use that as an excuse no more. I'm going to pull myself up by my bootstraps, and I'm going to make a change. And my change is going to make a change through the community. And through that, they gonna see what type of person I truly was. Where my heart was. This Thug Life stuff, it was just ignorance. My intentions was always in the right place. I never killed anybody, I never raped anybody, I never committed no crimes that weren't honorable-that weren't to defend myself. So that's what I'm going to show them. I'm going to show people my true intentions, and my true heart. I'm going to show them the man that my mother raised. I'm going to make them all proud.

Interview with Vibe 06/96
From: Vibe, June 1996
Interviewer: Kevin Powell

Questions have constantly been raised to whether or not Tupac Shakur has matured after his incarceration several months ago. VIBEonline conducted an exclusive interview with Tupac, to find what really is making him tick, and what exactly has him ticked off. Take part in this series of interviews, this week catch Part 1 of "Inside the Mind of Shakur"

What motivates you?

Poverty, needs, wants, pain. No I'm dealing with a more military type of philosophy-to mix the street life with respected, known and proven military philosophy. So when I'm rapping and talking that hardcore shit, at least it'll be from a military mindset.

What about your father, do you have any relationship with him?

I thought my father was dead all my life. After I got shot, I looked up there was this nigga that looked just like me. And he was my father; that's when I found out. We still didn't take no blood test but the nigga looked just like me and the other nigga's dead so now I feel that I'm past the father stage. I do want to know him and I do know him we did talk and he did visit and help me when I was locked down, but I'm past that. What I want to do is form a society in which we can raise ourselves; so we can become our own father figures and the big homies can become their father figures and then you grow up then it's your turn to be a father figure to another young brother. That's where I want to start. Nine times out of ten though we would want them to be there, they can't be depended on to be there. Now, some of the mothers can't be there because they doing their thing[working] I can't blame them, they gotta do what they gotta do. So I think the youth should raise themselves since they got lofty ideas about what's theirs and their rights, what they should deserve. Since you can't whup their asses, these muthafuckers should get out and work at fifteen. I want to be apart of the generation that builds the groundwork for us to raise each other.

In the VIBE article, you mentioned an organization that you were starting with Mike Tyson. What happened with that?

Now I'm doing it with Death Row. I was going to do it myself and I found out when I was about to be sentenced to jail that there was a spot called "A Place Called Home" I was about to be sent to jail for an old gun case that I had. The judge was like "You can tell your side of who you are and the prosecutor gave this big-fat envelope of everytime I got arrested and all this stuff that made me look like a crazed animal. We got someone who didn't work for us to write my life's story talking about everybody in my family and the people that I helped. This lady from the community center wrote as well. We were planning already to do this big concert with me and my homeboys to raise money to have a center in North Central were we can have the "at risk" kids come to a spot that they can call home-where they can get guidance, tutoring, love, nurturing; we're going to do a spot like that. So instead of it just being a program with me and Tyson like I planned it, cause it's me sitting in the penitentiary thinking, is now moved into this program called "A Place Called Home." that I'm working closely with. There's also a program called "Celebrity Youth League" with me, Hammer, Suge and all of these sports figures are each going to sponsor a youth group all year in football, baseball and basketball. We sponsor the team, buy the uniforms, hire the coach and start out own little league.

How do you relax from all this that you're doing?

There's three ways: shopping, driving down Sunset with the top down on any car and being with my homeboys. Not necessarily the older homies but the younger one's. Vibing off of what they're talking about and what's going on, and dropping whatever I have to drop to them. Then It's not like I'm doing this shit in vain.

Do you keep in touch with old friends?

On a whole, I don't have any friends. Friends come and go; I've lost my trust factor. I believe I have people who think they're my friends. And believe that there are people probably in their heart are friendly towards me or are friends to me. But they're not my friends because what I learned is that fear is stronger than love. So soon as somebody scarier comes along, they won't be my friend anymore. I learned that on the floor at Times Square--so I don't have friends, I have family. You're either my all the way family or just somebody on the outside.

Are you tight with your family?

Yeah, we took it back to the old school. We got the head of the family, we listen to the rules and regulations, order and organization. Now we're a living breathing family when before we were a dying-dysfunctional family. We still got problems but know we're learning how to deal with it.

What religion are you?

I'm the religion that to me is the realist religion there is. I try to pray to God every night unless I pass out. I learned this in jail, I talked to every God (member of the Five Percent Nation) there was in jail. I think that if you take one of the "O's" out of "Good" it's "God", if you add a "D" to "Evil", it's the "Devil". I think some cool motherfucker sat down a long time ago and said let's figure out a way to control motherfuckers. That's what they came up with-the bible. Cause if God wrote the bible, I'm sure there would have been a revised copy by now. Cause a lot of shit has changed. I've been looking for this revised copy-I still see that same old copy that we had from then. I'm not disrespecting anyone's religion, please forgive me if it comes off that way, I'm just stating my opinion. The bible tells us that all these did this because they suffered so much that's what makes them special people. I got shot five times and I got crucified to the media. And I walked through with the thorns on and I had shit thrown on me and I had the thief at the top; I told that nigga "I'll be back for you. Trust me, is not supposed to be going down, I'll be back. I'm not saying I'm Jesus but I'm saying we go through that type of thing everyday. We don't part the Red Sea but we walk through the hood without getting shot. We don't turn water to wine but we turn dope fiends and dope heads into productive citizens of society. We turn words into money. What greater gift can there be. So I believe God blesses us, I believe God blesses those that hustle. Those that use their minds and those that overall are righteous. I believe that everything you do bad comes back to you. So everything that I do that's bad, I'm going to suffer for it. But in my heart, I believe what I'm doing in my heart is right. So I feel like I'm going to heaven. I think heaven is just when you sleep, you sleep with a good conscience-you don't have nightmares. Hell is when you sleep, the last thing you see is all the fucked up things you did in your life and you just see it over and over again, cause you don't burn. If that's the case, it's hell on earth cause bullets burn. There's people that got burned in fires, does that mean they went to hell already? All that is here. What do you got there that we ain't seen here? What, we're gonna walk around aimlessly like zombies? That's here! You ain't been on the streets lately? Heaven now, look! (referring to his plush apartment) we're sitting up here in the living room-big screen TV- this is heaven, for the moment. Hell is jail I seen that one. Trust me, this is what's real. And all that other shit is to control you. If the churches took half the money that they was making and gave it back to the community, we'd be alright. If they took half the buildings that they use to "praise God" and gave it to motherfuckers who need God, we'd be alright. Have you seen some of these got damn churches lately? There's one's that take up the whole block in New York. There's homeless people out here. Why ain't God lettin' them stay there? Why these niggas got gold ceilings and shit? Why God need gold ceilings to talk to me? Why does God need colored windows to talk to me? Why God can't come where I'm at where he sent me? If God wanted to talk to me in a pretty spot like that, why the hell he send me here then. That makes ghetto kids not belive in God. Why? So that's wrong religion-I belive in God, I belive God puts us where ever we want to be at. They didn't make sense that God would put us in the ghetto. That means he wants us to work hard to get up out of here. That means he's testing us even more. That makes sense that if you're good in your heart, you're closer to God but if you're evil than your closer to the devil; that makes sense! I see that everyday all that other spooky shit, don't make sense. I don't even belive, I'm not dissin' them but I don't belive in the brothers, I've been in jail with 'em and having conversations with brothers; "I'm God, I'm God." You God, open the gate for me. You know far the sun is and how far the moon is, how the hell do I pop this fuckin' gate? And get me free and up outta here. Then I'll be a Five Percenter for life.

What type of woman would it take to settle you down?

A very, very strong woman. One who's more in love with me because I could be more in love with her than she is. Everytime I fall in love with a woman I don't fall in love with the woman she is, I fall in love with the woman she could be. I haven't found a woman yet, that has met up to my standards. And I'm sure I don't fit up to everyone's standards. But I haven't found one yet, but I found one that I think has the potential to be the rawest woman in the world. I feel like it's natural for a man especially being black to feel like he's the king and he's looking for his queen. That's where I'm at right now. You can't be a king until you've made yourself; Until you've done something. And I've accomplished my goals that made me a man. Now I feel like I'm a man, now I set out goals to make me a king. Not a king of anyone else but me. Nobody else is under my rule but me. I made my self into a king, now I need a queen to be happy so I can be a teacher and a father, I can't be that until I find a queen-So I'm stuck in limbo.

A lot of your East Coast fans feel like your new alleigance to the west coast is a disloyalty to the east.

That's so much nonsense, Poppycock! [laughs] It's not a new allegiance to the West Coast, I've been on the west coast all this time. Some people, not all, some people on the east coast are on their dicks so hard, they never heard me say that I'm living on the west coast. It's just by me keeping it real, I always said where I come from. I always gave New York their props. On Me Against The World, I took a whole song to give it up. So now on the next album, when I wanna give it up, for my home, where I'm at, everybody got a problem. Why don't they have a problem with Biggie saying Brooklyn in the house every fucking show he do. They just did a Sprite commercial with the "Bridge" and KRS, why isn't it hip-hop when I do it? Everybody else can have a beef within the music, talk about differences and it's ok. It's music, it's hip-hop, it's groundbreaking. When I do it, it's war. That's all I'm doing. All I'm doing is saying that I'm tired of you talking about where you're from; If that's what we're gonna do now. We was doing it like hip-hop was one nation. I have proof to say what I was doing-I've done more for the east coast than the east coast did. I put more guns in east coast niggas hands than east coast niggas did when they came out here. I put them niggas on to more weed gates and weed spots and safe havens and safe spots than the east coast did. I put more rappers on than they did. I gave Biggie his first shows! I was that bridge that niggas used to walk on to get over here. I explained it, I the one that told you. I'm why all these niggas are running around with a gangbanger on their payroll now.

Is there still a beef going on with you and Biggie?

There was never a beef, only a difference of opinion. My homeboy Suge gave me the best advice that I could ever get from anybody. When people ask him if he's beefing with Bad Boy and with Puffy, he's says it' s like me going to the playground to pick on little kids. That's like me being mad at my little brother cause he's getting cash now. I'm not mad at that, I'm just mad at my little brother when he don't respect me. And when you don't respect me, I'm a spank that ass. I don't give a fuck how rich you got on the block I'm your big brother. I'm a break your big ass down. That's my only point. I feel as though he wrong, he got out of hand. He got seduced by the power-not because he's an evil person, but because money is evil; if it's not handled right. If you lose your composure you could do anything. Fear got stronger than love and niggas did things that they weren't really supposed to do. They know in their hearts, that's why their in hell now. They can't sleep. That's why they're telling all the reporters and all the people "Why they doing this? They fucking up hip-hop, blah, blah, blah" cause they in hell. They can't make money, they can't go anywhere, they can't look at themselves cause they know the prodigal son has returned. I'm alive; the ghost is walking around. And I'm around talking, in jail I didn't talk. Now, everybody who thinks that I disrespected, I love my east coast fans. I'm from there. I'm eating New York Pizza, I drive New York jeeps but I'm saying let's keep it real for a second. If you're half the lover of music that you are, go back and study. Study how Party And Bullshit was me before I met Biggie. You don't hear my style in his raps. Study how after I met Biggie, Ready To Die comes out and his whole style changes study. Study why I would be mad when half of the major New York rappers or their managers, or their agents or their somebody was there when I got shot-and nobody couldn't give me no information. Just study that. Study how when Wu-Tang got their chain snatched at six-six-deuce, I not only found who did it but gave them the message that if they wanted to see the niggas that did it, they could see them. Man to Man, just you and them-no guns, no nothing if you feel like that. That's all I ask for. If you're going to act like a gangster or a "G" or a king of New York, I'm a expect that. And when you don't come through, then I'm going to want to crush your empire. And that's what it's time for.

Interview with Vibe 09/96
From: Vibe, September 1996
Interviewer: Kevin Powell

Two weeks before his death in Las Vegas, Tupac Shakur was in Los Angeles filming the movie Gang Related, in which he plays a corrupt cop. During a break in the filming, he sat down in his trailer with Rob Marriott for what may have been his last-and most outrageous-in depth interview.

Are you where you wanna be right now in your career?

I'm at a point where I'm in charge. I don't have to answer to anybody; I'm in total control. I've got another album droppin' next month under an alias name, under Makaveli. It's called Killuminati, I'm not the king, I'm not the teacher or nothin' like that, but I feel like I don't have no peers. I've been out less than a year, convicted of allegations that usually end niggas' careers. Shot five times in the nuts and the head. I came out, and in less than a fuckin' year outsold Biggie almost three times. I sold more records than his whole fuckin' record label.

What's with this Makaveli? Why name yourself after a sixteenth-century politician and philosopher?

That's what got me here, my reading. It's not like I idolize this one guy Machiavelli. I idolize that type of thinking where you do whatever's gonna make you achieve your goal.

So now I'm not on no bullshit or anything, I'm gonna change the rules in this rap game. You know how, like, in politics, the Republicans are, in now; well, I represent that style; I'm the new nigga. I'ma shake up the whole Congress. By puttin' out a double album-that nobody ever did-I had the most expensive album on the charts. My album cost more than any album you could buy on the charts, and I outsold every one of them mutha-fuckas. And I did it in two months!

I'm not dissin' niggas blindly. I'm dissin' niggas that opened up they mouth. I aspire not to be a reactionary muthafucka. I read. That's all I do is read. I read books, I read magazines, I read y'all's shit. I listen to everything a muthafacka says, no matter how slight, no matter how long ago he said it. Like, when I was in jail, niggas had a lot to say. When I came home, niggas had a lot to say. I remembered all of it.

Are you motivated by revenge?

Now, it's for fun. This new Makaveli album I got comin' out, I'm takin' on niggas. It's like, my dopest album ever. It's twelve tracks. I talk about my shooting [in New York]. I say the names of the niggas that shot me, the names of the niggas that set me up.... Everything I couldn't say, I said it in a rap. I also dis Dre, I dis Mobb Deep. All them niggas: Jay-Z, Puffy, Biggie. My album cover is me on the cross being crucified, and the cross is the map. It's got New York, Harlem, Brooklyn, everything. And I'm on the cross bein' crucified for keepin' it real.

So is it true you got Dre pushed off Death Row?

I did. Suge is the boss of Death Row, the don, you understand? But I'm the underboss, the capo. That's my job, to do what's best for all of Death Row. My decision wasn't based on comin' to Death Row and taking shit over. My decision was based on Dre not being there for Snoop during his trial.

But also, other niggas was producing beats, and Dre was gettin, the credit. And I got tired of that. He was owning the company too and he chillin' in his house; I'm out here in the streets, whoopin' niggas' asses, startin' wars and shit, droppin' albums, doin' my shit, and this nigga takin' three years to do one song! I couldn't have that. But it was not my decision. Suge was comin' to me.

Death Row can never be weak, no matter what. If we stop sellin' millions and all that, we will always have our honor. We will always have our respect, and that's all I'm back in this rap game for. I already have famous records; I'm in this shit for the honor and respect. To be a family, to be known as something, to get this dark cloud off us as a race. We need some kind of sunshine, some kind of exceptional being so we can stop suckin' Malcolm X and Michael Jordan's dick.

Do you and Suge both feel the same way about taking over, not turning back, and not being pawns?

Nobody respects a man who don't do for himself. I'm a soldier; so I'm here on Death Row to put my time into this army. It's not like they got me out of jail and now I gotta do for them. It's that they believed in me, so I believe in this company when no one else will. When people said this was played out. I'm breathin' into it. I don't give a fuck if I don't get along with anybody else on the label. This is for Death Row. When it comes to the point when I feel it can stand on its own, I will move on. But me and Suge will always do business together, forever.

Y'all are kindred spirits?

Everything I don't have, he's got, and everything he don't got, I got. Together, I think we can only be stopped by each other. We want, not oppression, but total domination.

I'm not no dumb-ass muthafucka. I don't bang for the color or the land. It's for the principles, for the honor. I'm banging for the Wesside. It's in my heart. When I be throwing up the W, it ain't for California, it's a W for war. When the West Coast and the middle and the East get together, we got power. You won't be seeing me throwing this when we're all together. But we ain't there, we still all separate tribes, and I know what tribe I'm in. I'm a soldier. I'll always be true to those who are true to me. New York shouldn't be trippin, they should be loving this, because they gave me the game to do this- What made me raw is that I got both. I'm the future of black America.

Why do you think people always supported you, even in the ugliest situations?

I don't know. All I can say is I always try to be a real nigga in my heart. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad; but it's still us. It's never to hurt nobody. I'm not gonna take advantage of you or bully you. I'm on some underdog shit. And I truly believe I've been blessed by God, and God walks with me. Me and my niggas are on some Black Jesus shit. Not a new religion or anything, but the saint for thugs and gangstas-not-killers and rapists, but thugs. When I say thugs, I mean niggas who don't have anything.

I lived and almost died for Thug Life. And after that VIBE article, people said "Tupac, I thought Thug Life was dead." Yeah, but read the rest of the article. Puffy, in that letter in VIBE, gave me some advice that brought me back to the Thug Life shit. He said you can't be a thug for a second or a minute and get in and out of it, you gotta be in it forever. He didn't mean it as advice at the time, he said it to dampen things. So now, when I'm whoopin' his ' muthafuckin ass, and it hurts, and all these people talkin' about "Stop, now," remember what he told me. These words came out of his mouth.

Biggie's playing it like you got it confused, that he didn't have nothin' to do with your, getting shot...

I have no mercy in war. I said in the beginning I was gonna take these niggas out the game, and sure enough I will. Already people can't look at Biggie and not laugh. I took every piece of his power. Anybody who tries to help them, I will destroy. Anyone who wanna side with them or do a record with them, whatever, try to unify with them, I'ma destroy. I swear to God. Can't nobody touch me right now. Maybe next month all of this will be over, but this month I'm takin' every moving target out.

Black people put all their political energies, everything they have, into getting loot. Like right now, it's the presidential campaign.

And we ain't doin' shit.

We're voting on Tupac and Biggie, 'cause that's where we live. no's gonna get dead presidents, not who's going to be president.

But see, rap is like a politician's race; If I lost New York, I won the other forty-nine states, and that makes me in control. Now I'm the new president for the next four years. Crucial Conflict could go five times platinum, but nobody's gon' let them sign no bills. They can't make no hip hop laws.

So what is the source of this power?

I tried to see if it was, like, a white thing. Everywhere I go with money, they let me in. Everywhere I go with none, they don't let you in. Trust me. That's all it is. It's all about money. When you got money, you got power. I guarantee if people keep supporting me-just buyin' my record, just goin' to my concerts-I'ma keep givin' money. Every time I go platinum I'm puttin' money up for community centers. Every time I go platinum, somebody's gettin' a big check. I feel like an elected official.

You know what I thought when I was in jail, I was, like, No politician is even gettin' at us. I represent five million fuckin' sales. And no politician is even checkin' for us. But by the next election I promise I'll be sitting across from all the candidates. I promise you! I'ma be so far from where I am now in four years-God willin' I'm alive-it's on! I guarantee we will have our own political party. It won't just be for blacks. It's gon' be for Mexicans, for Armenians, all you lost-tribe muthafackas. We need to have our own political party 'cause we have the same muthafuckin' problems. We built this nation and we get none of the benefits.

What distinguishes you from everyone else?

I never thought I was the best rapper-the best nothin'. I think I'm the realest nigga out there. I do think that. I think I own that. 'Cause I think being real is just being true. I'm the nigga that will wear a suit when everybody's got on khakis. I'll be baldheaded when everybody's wearing braids. I'll wear braids when they all baldheaded. I'm just being real. I don't have insecurities-well, I do, but I just put them in front of everybody, like my mom and my life and me being little.

We got to kill this niggeritis. Niggas hate me just 'cause of what you doin', niggas plotting on you 'cause of omen, and niggas hatin' to see you shine. We got to kill that. Before we can kill it in our black nation, we got to kill it in the Hip Hop Nation, and that's what I'm doin'. It's the only reason I'm back: to bring the heat. And I feel like God is tellin' me to do it. I feel like Black Jesus is controlling me. He's our saint that we pray to; that we look up to. Drug dealers, they sinning, right? But they'll be millionaires. How I got shot five times only a saint, only Black Jesus, only a nigga that know where I'm coming from, could be, like, "You know what? He's gonna end up doing some good." I gotta do that.

People might be, like, "This nigga's conceited, but fuck it. I feel like I shine. And I don't give a fuck how much white people, the media, niggas, black people, playa haters, police, whoever, try to darken my shine, I'ma always shine through. They could lie about my words, but they always gonna ring true 'cause it's my essence; it's in my essence, and that's what's always gonna come through.

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