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Back to Part 1 - The Conversion of Israel

Lutheran (amillennial) position - God has fulfilled His promises to the Jews. They have no further purpose in God's plan as a separate entity. As one guy put it, there is no more significance to the physical nation of Israel today than there is to Germany or France. All the promises made to Israel have been or are being fulfilled in the church. The 1,000-year reign is symbolic of the New Testament era, and Jesus is reigning in heaven and in our hearts. We are currently reigning with him. When Jesus comes back for his people, the world will be destroyed and we will all be in heaven.

Actual words of doctrine from Lutheran web site: We reject the teaching that Christ will reign on earth for a thousand years in a physical, earthly kingdom. This teaching (millennialism) has no valid scriptural basis and falsely leads Christians to set their hopes upon an earthly kingdom of Christ (John 18:36). We reject as unscriptural any claim that Christians will be physically removed, or "raptured," from the earth prior to judgment day. We likewise reject as unscriptural any claim that all the Jews will be converted in the final days. We believe that at Jesus' return this present world will come to an end. "In keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13).

What I think the Bible says : Granted, there is much that is confusing, and much we'll just have to see about. BUT, I think there are plain, simple texts that can't be ignored. In the end, it's likely that we'll all have things to say "I told you so," about and plenty of reasons to say, "Oops! Guess I was wrong!" However, even with that in mind, I believe that there are many scriptures that would lead us to expect Israel to be restored, and that at least a portion of our reign with Christ is on earth and yet future. HOWEVER, we will be in resurrected bodies, and for US, I don't think there's going to be much difference between that and our continued life in the new heavens and new earth. We will be with Jesus, from the instant he appears and forevermore, so I don't think what OUR lives are going to be like is much of an issue.

• Israel will be restored (and does have significance, even today)
• Jesus will be king on David's throne - a throne that has always been here on earth. We will reign with him.
• The rapture isn't necessarily unscriptural, although no one should be dogmatic as to its timing.

Remember the previous verses. They were all about the conversion & gathering of Israel after the Tribulation. Here are a couple more as a reminder:

I'm not a Bible scholar. My knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is limited to my exhaustive concordance, Blueletterbible.com and my Greek & Hebrew lexicons. So - I'm not going to be making any big, complicated arguments. I'm just going to show what the Bible says:

Psa 53:4 Have the workers of wickedness no knowledge, Who eat up My people as though they ate bread And have not called upon God ?
Psa 53:5 There they were in great fear where no fear had been; For God scattered the bones of him who encamped against you; You put them to shame, because God had rejected them.
Psa 53:6 Oh , that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion ! When God restores His captive people , Let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

The following two are long, but they seem to go together.

Do you see how the two go together? The animal parts show that Isaiah is talking about the same time period in both sections. The first one shows that this is happening after the Tribulation. The second one shows that this must be before the New Heavens and New Earth, because of this verse: No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.

My pastor explains this as our spiritual coming to faith, and somehow he tied it to heaven, but just reading the words, none of that makes any sense to me. The words seem pretty plain here, and a normal person reading them is going to come to the understanding that there is still dying going on. In the New Heavens and New Earth, there isn't any more dying going on. I believe that this has nothing to do with us, though. When Jesus comes for us, we will be caught up into the air, and we will be changed in an instant. The perishable will put on imperishable. WE won't be doing any more dying. But somebody is. The only somebodies left will be those who survive the Tribulation.

Here's a reminder of some of those verses:

More "restoring" verses:

This next part is really long (virtually the whole chapter), but I'm not trying to make my case by taking a verse here and a verse there. See for yourself what it says:

Jer 33:4 "For thus says the LORD God of Israel concerning the houses of this city , and concerning the houses of the kings of Judah which are broken down to make a defense against the siege ramps and against the sword,
Jer 33:5 'While they are coming to fight with the Chaldeans and to fill them with the corpses of men whom I have slain in My anger and in My wrath, and I have hidden My face from this city because of all their wickedness :
Jer 33:6 'Behold, I will bring to it health and healing, and I will heal them; and I will reveal to them an abundance of peace and truth.
Jer 33:7 'I will restore the fortunes of Judah and the fortunes of Israel and will rebuild them as they were at first.
Jer 33:8 'I will cleanse them from all their iniquity by which they have sinned against Me, and I will pardon all their iniquities by which they have sinned against Me and by which they have transgressed against Me.
Jer 33:9 'It will be to Me a name of joy, praise and glory before all the nations of the earth which will hear of all the good that I do for them, and they will fear and tremble because of all the good and all the peace that I make for it.'
Jer 33:10 "Thus says the LORD, 'Yet again there will be heard in this place, of which you say, "It is a waste , without man and without beast," that is, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem that are desolate, without man and without inhabitant and without beast,
Jer 33:11 the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the voice of those who say, "Give thanks to the LORD of hosts, For the LORD is good , For His lovingkindness is everlasting "; and of those who bring a thank offering into the house of the LORD. For I will restore the fortunes of the land as they were at first,' says the LORD.
Jer 33:12 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'There will again be in this place which is waste , without man or beast, and in all its cities , a habitation of shepherds who rest their flocks.
Jer 33:13 'In the cities of the hill country, in the cities of the lowland, in the cities of the Negev, in the land of Benjamin, in the environs of Jerusalem and in the cities of Judah, the flocks will again pass under the hands of the one who numbers them,' says the LORD.
Jer 33:14 'Behold, days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will fulfill the good word which I have spoken concerning the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
Jer 33:15 'In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth.
Jer 33:16 'In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she will be called: the LORD is our righteousness.'
Jer 33:17 "For thus says the LORD, 'David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel;
Jer 33:18 and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man before Me to offer burnt offerings , to burn grain offerings and to prepare sacrifices continually .' "
Jer 33:19 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,
Jer 33:20 "Thus says the LORD, 'If you can break My covenant for the day and My covenant for the night, so that day and night will not be at their appointed time,
Jer 33:21 then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant so that he will not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levitical priests, My ministers.
Jer 33:22 'As the host of heaven cannot be counted and the sand of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.' "
Jer 33:23 And the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,
Jer 33:24 "Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, 'The two families which the LORD chose, He has rejected them'? Thus they despise My people , no longer are they as a nation in their sight. (Did you notice what that just said? Is it possible that God is referring to our amillennial churches and pastors?)
Jer 33:25 "Thus says the LORD, 'If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established,
Jer 33:26 then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.' "

It's not just the old Testament that says Israel will be restored. The New Testament says that, too. In fact, it says it very clearly. After Jesus was resurrected, he spent 40 days with his disciples. Acts 1 says he spent that time teaching them about the Kingdom of God. AFTER this time of being taught about the Kingdom, the disciples asked Jesus if he was going to restore the kingdom to Israel at that time. Plenty of other times he had told them they were slow to understand, but not this time. This time, instead of correcting any wrong impressions (the perfect opportunity and last chance to do it), he said, It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority. Now, think about that. If I told my kids, "Someday, Daddy says we can have a huge party and all your friends will want to come," they are going to expect a huge party. If they waited and waited and finally asked, "Are we going to have the party now, Mom?" and I said, "It's not for you to know the time that Daddy has decided," they are going to figure the party is still coming. If it turns out that what I REALLY meant was spiritual happiness, and I never meant they were EVER going to have a party, they're going to be disappointed. (Not to mention that they would probably consider me a liar.) Why would I lead them to believe something that I knew was a wrong idea? And why would I continue to encourage that idea as time went on?

Do you see what I mean? The Old Testament scriptures that you read very clearly promised that Israel would be restored in a big way. Our idea that those scriptures were fulfilled spiritually through the church just doesn't fit. It didn't fit with the disciples, or they would have had no reason to ask what they did.

Now, you could say that full understanding came later, when the Holy Spirit came down on them, and they began to proclaim the gospel boldly. Jesus did say that the Holy Spirit would teach them all things. That doesn't explain why he didn't just tell them when he had the chance. And what did they hear about the kingdom if Jesus spent all that time teaching them (and can you imagine for one second that they would let all that talk go by without asking questions sometime during those 40 days?) and they STILL didn't get it? But, you can see by the following verses, that even AFTER the Holy Spirit came, Peter was still talking about the Restoration.

Those prophecies all concern things that happen during and after the Tribulation. What about Israel now? Does it mean anything? There was a hint in Isaiah when it says God will work against the godless nation. (Those verses were in the previous section) He was speaking of Israel there and talking about the time of the Tribulation. Obviously, when the Tribulation happens, the nation would have to exist. Jesus also told us there would have to be a national Israel in Matthew 24. Here are the verses:

This is probably going to require some explanation, but first I'll give you the verses in Daniel that Jesus is referring to. This is from the NASB.

That's not terribly easy to understand. Daniel also refers to the same thing in Chapter 11.

It's also in Chapter 12:

I'll talk a lot more about these verses later. Right now, here's the point. In 165 BC, a guy by the name of Antiochus Epiphanes came against Jerusalem. He wasn't a nice guy, and in many ways was a "type" of the antichrist. He set up a statue and altar to Zeus in the temple, (some commentators even say that it was likely in the very Holy of Holies) and sacrificed a pig there. That was the "abomination of desolation", and if it wasn't for what Jesus said, you'd think the prophecy in Daniel had been fulfilled. But, Jesus said Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand ), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. And also, For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Some people say (including the Matthew's People's Bible - a Lutheran commentary) that the Abomination of Desolation that Jesus is referring to happened during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. However, in 70 AD, there was no time for that to happen. The temple was set on fire (to the dismay of the Roman military leaders, because they wanted to loot it first) and all the gold melted. That's why there wasn't one stone left on another, because the soldiers tore them apart to get at the gold that had run between the stones. There wasn't time to set up any idols in the Holy place. Also, as you can see, Jesus ties this event to the Great Tribulation, not to 70 AD.

The Jews were dispersed all over the world after that, and there weren't any Jews in any significant numbers in Jerusalem until the early 1900's, and especially after 1948. Now, this event that Jesus is referring to requires a few things, since it apparently hasn't happened, yet.

1. It requires the Jews to be in control of the land, especially of the Temple Mount.
2. It requires a temple of some form and a resumption of the sacrifices. You can tell that from Daniel 11: Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

With that in mind, how can the existence of the physical nation of Israel not be of some importance? These conditions didn't exist for nearly 2000 years. In fact, the conditions still don't exist. The Arabs are in control of the Temple Mount, and any mention of a temple sends them into a frenzy and cries of "Jihad!"

Now, you can ignore the plain words of the scripture, or you can say that REALLY it was fulfilled by such and such, or you can say it symbolizes something else - or you can find yourself kind of interested in what goes on over there. Take your pick.

NOTE: Some amillennial commentators say that this abomination happens in our hearts, when we let Satan in. Others say that it's the Pope, etc. etc. You can see from Daniel, and from the historical episode with Antiochus Epiphanes, that this must have something to do with idols in the temple.

From "Strongs":
Abomination:
946 bdelugma {bdel'-oog-mah}

To me, the direct Biblical evidence is the most important, but common sense does come into play here. No other people in the history of the world has managed to maintain a national identity for 2,000 years and then come back together again to form an actual country like the Jews have. Plus, it was primarily financed by Jews throughout the world, who wanted to create a homeland for their people. No other people on earth have maintained an identity like that.

The persecution that the Jews have faced over the centuries is reason enough to believe that there still is a purpose to come for them. My church may not recognize it, but Satan certainly has. How else can you explain what has happened all over the world, time and time again? The ultimate example is Hitler, of course. Why the incredible hatred of the Jews that he displayed? Why did so many people go along with it? They were all fooled and led by Satan. But why would Satan care? Doesn't he have better things to do? I can understand his desire to wipe out Christianity, but why the Jews? Why are they a threat to whatever "plan" he has?

I'm also intrigued (not convinced, but intrigued) by an interesting "coincidence." In Ezekiel 4:4-6, God tells Ezekiel to do something very weird. He says, "Lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel. After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year. (Pretty weird. If the people around him didn't think he was strange before, they certainly did during this. At least he didn't have to go naked, like Isaiah did.)

Ezekiel was in Babylon during this time. The Jews went into captivity for 70 years in Babylon after Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem . All together, God told Ezekiel to lie on his side for 390 + 40 = 430 days, which was supposed to equal 430 years. God had told the Jews that they were going into captivity for their sin. They spent 70 years in Babylon in captivity. 430 - 70 = 360 years. Back in Deuteronomy, it says several times that if the Jews didn't learn their lesson, their sorrow would be multiplied seven times. 360 x 7 = 2,520. A Biblical year seems to always equal 360 days. 2,530 x 360 = 907,200 days. Change that to OUR calendar years: 907,200 divided by 365.25 = 2,483.8. My approximation of leap years is not perfect, so call it 2,484 years. The Concordia Self-Study Bible, in the notes that accompany Ezra, Chapter 3, says that when the Babylonian captivity ended (Cyrus let them go back), the people began the work of rebuilding the temple in the spring of 536 BC. That showed that their hearts had turned back to God (temporarily, at least). 536 BC + 2,484 years = 1948 AD. Israel regained control of the land in 1948. It's an interesting "coincidence."

Here's more on that, with more exact math: http://www.khouse.org/articles/biblestudy/20000801-276.html 

And also here http://www.direct.ca/trinity/jerusalem.html with additional information on what happened in 1967.

I don't have any big, fancy argument here. I only know what the Bible says. The angel told Mary that she was going to have a son who would sit on the throne of David. The "throne of David" was in Jerusalem. It was an earthly throne that had had earthly kings on it (very earthly, in some cases - some of those guys left a little to be desired). There wasn't anybody from David's line on the throne when Jesus was born. King Herod was an Edomite. He wasn't even a Jew. (That's one reason he went ballistic when the wise men asked, "Where is he who is born king of the Jews?")

This is what the people were expecting, because of prophecies like these:

There are some verses that seem to parallel these in the New Testament that talk about thrones set up for judgment.

Please note where this is supposed to happen - a place that God formerly treated with contempt. That can't be heaven.
Isa 9:2 The people who walk in darkness Will see a great light; Those who live in a dark land, The light will shine on them.
Isa 9:3 You shall multiply the nation, You shall increase their gladness; They will be glad in Your presence As with the gladness of harvest , As men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
Isa 9:4 For You shall break the yoke of their burden and the staff on their shoulders, The rod of their oppressor, as at the battle of Midian.
Isa 9:5 For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult, And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire.
Isa 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore . The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

 

Jesus wasn't on the throne of David when he was on earth, and he isn't on the throne of David right now. Right now, he is in heaven, on his Father's throne.

 

Act 3:20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,
Act 3:21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

There IS a precedent for an earthly reign of a king/priest in physical Jerusalem - a very interesting fellow named Melchizedek.

A king that reigns in a physical kingdom would be expected to make decisions, render judgments and basically GOVERN. The Bible does talk about that:

Isa 32:1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment.

Mic 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

In order for nations to come, there has to BE nations.

Dan 7:13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (Compare that with the many verses about Jesus' second coming with the clouds of heaven AFTER Tribulation)
Dan 7:14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.
Dan 7:15 "As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me.
Dan 7:16 "I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:
Dan 7:17 'These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. (the previous kingdoms were on the earth)
Dan 7:18 'But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.'
Dan 7:19 "Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
Dan 7:20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.
Dan 7:21 "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. (Notice how the saints take possession AFTER the judgment)
Dan 7:23 "Thus he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
Dan 7:24 'As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
Dan 7:26 'But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
Dan 7:27 'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.' (The dominion and greatness of the kingdoms will be given to the people of the Highest One, after the judgment)

The following is long, again, but please read it carefully. This is the whole last chapter of the Book of Zechariah.

Zec 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled , but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city .
Zec 14:3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
Zec 14:4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east ; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
Zec 14:5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel ; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!
Zec 14:6 In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle .
Zec 14:7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.
Zec 14:8 And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.
Zec 14:10 All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin's Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine presses.
Zec 14:11 People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse , for Jerusalem will dwell in security. Could spiritual Jerusalem have been a curse?
Zec 14:12 Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth.
Zec 14:13 It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another's hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another.
Zec 14:14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.
Zec 14:15 So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse , the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.
Zec 14:16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
Zec 14:17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
Zec 14:18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

There are all kind of symbolic explanations for this chapter. It means lots of things, but it definitely doesn't mean what it says. One guy even said that people simply couldn't "indulge in crass literalism." But, you know, there are other prophecies in Zechariah that you might be familiar with.

That was fulfilled perfectly, completely literally.

This was fulfilled literally, to the letter. Judas threw his 30 pieces of silver into the Temple, and the Jewish leaders used the money to buy the potter's field.

John quotes this in Chapter 19:36-37 "For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, "NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN." And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCE." Obviously, he was looking at the fact that Jesus was pierced as fulfilled. The rest of that verse will be fulfilled when he returns.

Jesus fulfilled this, too.

This was also fulfilled. Even though the "shepherd" and the "sheep" are figurative, we know exactly what they mean, and the scattered part was literally fulfilled. The prophecy mixed figurative with literal without a problem. Since these other prophecies were fulfilled literally, why shouldn't we expect Zechariah 14 to be literally fulfilled?

You know, a prophet is only as good as his prophecy. The penalty for a false prophecy was supposed to be death. The only way to judge whether a prophecy is true or not is whether it comes to pass. If everything is symbolic, how can you judge whether something has happened or not? You could find SOMETHING to fulfill any statement by anybody if it was just symbolic. Besides, remember this?

The Bible also says we will reign with Jesus:

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:

This one above isn't conclusive about when or where, just that we will reign.

The way that Paul uses the word "judge" here seems to be the same way as it is used in the Old Testament - not judge as in destroy, but judge as in judge between, settle disputes. That is his point when he says they are competent to do that among themselves, and that they shouldn't be taking fellow believers to court. In order to do that, there needs to be someone to do that for.

Some things that I've read say that we are reigning right now, and that seems to be what our pastors teach. Other things say that the reigning will start in heaven. These verses in 1 Corinthians are interesting. On one hand, it says, you have reigned as kings, which would be right now, but the very next part says, I would to God you did reign, that we also might reign with you. Or, as the NIV puts it, "How I wish you really had become kings so that we might be kings with you." Taken together, it seems to say that yes, we are kings, but we won't REALLY reign until later.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

In these verses, John is in heaven where he is shown a throne in heaven with an emerald rainbow around it. Surrounding the throne are the thrones of the 24 elders, dressed in white. It's interesting that although they were in heaven, they were saying, "We shall reign on the earth."

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I have pages and pages of arguments back and forth from various people about what the above means. Lutherans say that it is obviously the souls that are on the thrones in heaven, currently reigning. To them, this makes the 1,000 years symbolic for New Testament times. I have no doubt that they are completely sincere, honestly believing that they are interpreting this correctly. Who am I to say that they're wrong? I'm nobody. Maybe in the end, it will turn out that they were right all along. Here is some of what they say. This is from the WELS web site:

Books have been written about Revelation 20. The WELS "Becker" commentary on Revelation would only be half as long (or less) if he wasn't refuting "Millennialism." I'm not even going to try to explain it all here. I'll just say that I believe the "they" that are on the thrones giving judgment is not the "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus" but refers back to those in the previous chapter, the bride who has made herself ready, clothed in fine linen. Please note that word "and" in between the two statements.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and (kai)[I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

If you look back at Revelation 20:4, And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, you can see that it doesn't make any sense grammatically for the "they" to be the souls. Also, the souls are under the altar, waiting, not on thrones reigning:

You can also see in Revelation 20 that these are the ones who did not take the mark of the beast. If you understand that literally, than these people weren't killed until the mark was established, during the Tribulation, which would mean they certainly weren't reigning in heaven for a thousand years. Of, course, if you interpret the mark and the years symbolically, it's a moot point. Trying to talk to someone who is convinced of the amillennial view is so, well, slippery. It's an entirely different mindset, and an entirely different way of looking at things. Apparently it all hangs together for them and makes a neat circle, all things fitting together. Maybe if you're inside the circle, it all makes sense. I guess I'm outside the circle.

 At any rate, it makes more sense to me that those that were beheaded and LIVED were resurrected, not just "saved," and THEN they reigned for a thousand years. Like I said, there are long, long arguments about this. I could put them here, but it would just be bewildering for you, I'm sure. I've worked at it for five years, and like I said, it's slippery. Please, just read Revelation, without any preconceived notions of what it means, and let the Holy Spirit SHOW you what it means.

OK, back to verses about reigning with Christ:

It says that "he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations." You can't keep deeds "until the end" unless either Jesus comes back, or at least that individual's "end" comes. So, this is happening AFTER a person's normal life on earth. That could be heaven, I suppose, but are there nations in heaven? Again, in order to have authority over nations, there has to BE nations.

You already saw earlier that Jesus' throne is the throne of David, which has always been in Jerusalem.

To me, these verses are very convincing, but maybe you see it differently. If you have time, read the whole thing for yourself. That's the best way to know what the Bible says - not to depend on what someone else says. While I've been writing this, I've still been reading and researching, and there are things that people say that DO make a lot of sense, but I keep coming back to some of these verses that you've read here. What do they say to you? Lutheran pastors, reading these same verses, come up with different conclusions, and they seem so convinced. Yet, I just can't get that meaning from them.

We cling to what the Bible has to say as being the only source of information without error. Still, it makes sense to look at what the early Christians thought. There aren't too many letters or books that survive from that time, but there are a few. Sometimes these are called the writings of the Church Fathers, since often what was preserved were letters to congregations of Christians. Some of them are considered controversial, although it seems like people disagree on what makes them controversial.

Here are parts of some articles on this subject.

Here is a great paper, well worth your time:

Theology Adrift: The Early Church Fathers and Their Views of Eschatology

Here are some quotes from Early Church Fathers. These are from the "Ante-Nicene Fathers." After each quote is the reference where you can find the full thing, with volume and then page number. The "Ante-Nicene Fathers" is a huge work of the writings of the Early Church Fathers up to 325 AD. The full set is available online at:

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/

I've tried to include everyone that mentioned the "millennium" at all, but I was depending on David W. Bercot's "Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs" for the references. So, if he missed one, I missed it, too. My comments follow each one.

As you can see, the Early Church Fathers who declared themselves one way or the other in written form were ALL premillennial up to Origen. Of course, this is not without dispute. Here is what the Wisconsin Synod Lutheran web site says about it in their Q&A section:

I leave you to draw your own conclusions about the value of the positions of the Church Fathers. Many Lutheran and other amillennial commentaries declare that the early Christian premillennial "error" was based on Jewish chiliasm. One article says,

It is certainly true that by the time that Jesus was born, the Jewish rabbinical writings were filled with apocalyptic & millennial (literally 1000 years) expectations. That's not remotely scripture, of course. I'm just saying that that was the mood and expectation of the people of the time. Even that WELS book, Eschatological Prophecies and Current Misinterpretations mentions that that was the case.

Now, consider this. If the people of the time expected Messiah to come and literally reign for 1,000 years - the Sabbath rest - the seventh day - the "last" day, and along comes John and says that believers are going to reign with Christ for 1,000 years - WHY would/should those same people interpret that symbolically? And, for today's people, why would a regular person reading and simply believing the Bible, come to an allegorical (different) understanding of what seems to be some very plain words? If there wasn't someone else around saying "this really means THIS" and all that person had was the Bible itself to go on, why would that person think anything different than what it actually SAYS?

If the expectation that Messiah would reign from Jerusalem for 1,000 years was incorrect, why would God, through John, have written something that reinforced that belief? And, why would God expect me, a regular person, to understand that He really meant something other than what He said?

That leads me to ask a another question. I keep hearing that the only place in the whole Bible that even begins to talk about a millennial reign is Revelation 20. Since the Jews had no access to Revelation (it hadn't been written yet) and wouldn't have read it even if they had, how did they come up with the idea of a thousand year reign of the Messiah?

Perhaps the Sabbath is one place they got the idea. The Bible speaks of the Sabbath being a shadow of things to come. With that in mind, I find the combination of these verses interesting:

You'll remember that the Epistle of Barnabus said something similar.

When the Bible says things like "on earth" and "reign for a thousand years," I'm ready to nod my head and say, OK. You'll see more of how things fit together (in my mind) as you read the remaining sections. I'm going to end this by letting the Lutheran theologians have the last word. I won't interrupt it unless I can't stand it. As you read it, please remember one thing, though. You can take a verse here and there and make almost any argument sound really good. This is not to say that they are wrong, but for example, one short quote of Hosea in the Book of Romans is supposed to show that all of Hosea has been fulfilled. In order for the following argument to be completely true, I believe that nearly 25% of the Bible needs to mean something other than the plain words. I'm definitely not saying that there isn't truth in the following. But do they really have it all figured out? You've read a little of the OT prophecies here, maybe enough to grasp that they all fit together. At some point, you need to read it all. Please, somehow, make time to read the whole Bible for yourself. Not a verse here and there - the whole thing.

OK, the following is from Eschatological Prophecies and Current Misinterpretations: Five Lectures on the End-Times by Wilbert R. Gawrisch, published by the Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary in 1989. It's taken from a subsection called "Millennialism examined in the light of Holy Scripture."

If you are anything like me, you may have reacted to Pastor Gawrisch's thoughts with a little confusion and discomfort. He is portraying wonderful truths, but he is ignoring a whole lot of Scripture. It makes me literally sick in my stomach to keep saying, "yes, but..." but that's what I keep thinking. I would love to be able to read all that and say "He's absolutely right!" But I've read all those prophecies, and I just can't accept that all that detail that the prophets include is basically meaningless. I just don't think that a regular person, going on just the Bible and not Martin Luther or seminary professors or Lutheran commentaries, is going to come to those same conclusions. I honestly believe that - even if they studied those quotes in the NT thoroughly. Of course, I may be prejudiced, since I couldn't come to those conclusions.

Continue to Part 3 - Questions about Antichrist

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