Apologia pro Papa Innocentus IV
From: H.J.
Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 5:17 am
Subject: heresy and heretics and ecumenism
Accoring to what I have read so far, Innocent IV wrote the Bull Ad Extirpanda effectively establishing a police state in Italy. It is noteworthy for having introduced the use of torture into inquisitorial procedure, and for explicitly condoning burning alive at the stake for relapsed heretics. There was resistance amongst secular lords , so he wrote a subsidiary Bull, Cum adversus haereticam.
This Bull stated that:
Now, I am NOT trying to start any sort of argument here. I AM looking for answers. Things such as this bother me and I would like your input.
My question is this: there is apparantly no controversy whether or not Innocent IV was a pope even though he obviously wrote Papal Bulls that were BLATANTLY against quite a few of the Ten Commandments. ("thou shalt not murder" comes to mind for one).
My question is what has JPII done that in ANYWHERE near this BLATANT, SINFUL action on the part of Innocent IV. I am not talking here about private, sinful behaviour, I am talking about the use of his office as Pope to promote sinful, cruel, hateful actions against human beings. AND--Innocent IV isn't the only pope to promote hate and cruelty toward non-Christians, actions and words obviously not in keeping with the Faith of Christ.
Now, perhaps I have taken his comments out of context or something. That is why I would like your input.
Thank you and God bless.
Message # 837 Traditional Catholics' Club
From: arul raj <raarul@y...>
Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 7:09 pm
Subject: Re: heresy and heretics and ecumenism
A reply to hj:
I think JP I I hasn't done anything in the scale of Innocent IV. But a large no. of souls could've been lost by now. People despite their positions, exalted or otherwise commit blunders in the Name of GOD because of their ignorance of His teachings and HIM . If Jesus wanted everyone to be converted irrespective of the man's desire HE could've done it in no time. HE just did'nt do it because HE wants man to come to HIM by his own free will.
If man freely chooses the evil ,GOD sorrow fully calls him to return till the end. If the man persists in the evil till the end GOD punishes him Considering their state ; before the Passions of our Lord , we may conclude that some of the Apostles left to themselves could've ended up like Innocent IV. But because of their active cooperation to the Enlightenment ,they've become saints.
I would suggest that we all read the book "The Song... of the MAN GOD" the revelation to Maria Valterrata . It helps to know more about the lives of our Lord and our HolyMother.
It illustrates how our Lord dealt with all sorts of people including Judas with compassion and great prudence. If only we could imitate HIM.....!
The threat to the Holy Faith did'nt start with Vat II but was long there. Vat II enacted the threat. I think we should leave JP II to our Lord to decide, while trying to imitate Him. JP II will answer for his actions. Meanwhile let us insulate ourselves from the ill effects.
God Bless
Message # 838 Traditional Catholics' Club
From: arul raj <raarul@y...>
Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:47 am
Subject: Re: heresy and heretics and ecumenism
Hi,
In my previous mail I had referred to a book. Its correct title is "The Poem of MAN -GOD ". The heavenly messages were revealed to Maria Valtorata.
Thank You and God Bless.
Message # 839 Traditional Catholics' Club
From: littlevictim777@a...
Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 3:47 pm
Subject: Re: heresy and heretics and ecumenism
In a message dated 2/11/2003 6:58:43 AM Hawaiian Standard Time, raarul@y... writes:
> "The Song... of the MAN GOD" the revelation to Maria Valterrata
I believe this is called the "poem of the Man-God" by Maria Vallorta... just to clarify...I am curious about this book, but have read condemnation of it, that it was not accepted as a true revelation of God and may have had error... thoughts anyone on this book?
in His Wounds and Her Womb,
Lauren Dymphna Philomena Magdalene, CJM, CSD, MSHL, a/MGC
"O my Jesus, how Your little victim suffers, but how she loves You, with as much love as she has received... O Jesus, keep me always. I belong to You; give me patience and calmness in everything." — Marthe Robin, mystic and stigmatist.
"Great sinners tend to be great bores. That is why most people have never waded through the intensely dull pages of Mein Kampf."
Message # 843 Traditional Catholics' Club
From: "Prax Maskaren" <prakashjm45@y...>
Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:13 pm
Subject: Re: heresy and heretics and ecumenism
Dear Friends, - The methods used by the Pope are endorsed by the Holy Bible, by St. Thomas of Aquinas, etc. H.J. misunderstands the ten commandments: remember that it is the same God who, at the same time ordered the Israelites to entirely exterminate the Canaanites. By today's irreligious, that would meet the standard for genocide, wouldn't it?
On the other hand, Wojtyla is a Modernist heretic, and he has caused literally millions of souls to be lost to Christ, and to fall into hellfire.
Additional references:
Catholic Doctrine Of War
Catholicism & Sæcularism
on my sites General Pages - Contra-Evolutionism or
OrthoPapism
Prax Maskaren
Message # 844
From: H.J.
Date: Sat Feb 15, 2003 4:13 am
Subject: Re: heresy and heretics and ecumenism
As far as my misunderstanding the Ten Commandments, what part of "Thou Shalt Not Kill" am I misunderstanding? Seems to me like torture and murder is against this commandment.
What am I missing here?
I DO know that Christ said to pray for your enemies and those who persecute you. He did NOT say to torture or kill them.
Dear H.J.,
Message # 853
From: "Prax Maskaren" <prakashjm45@y...>
Date: Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:45 pm
In researching for an answer to your posts, I have found that your original post - and its slanders of Pope Innocent IV - was taken up, near verbatim, from a virulently antiCatholic site, http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/burman.html
http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/inquisitionihistory.html, with the former being your source.
At the same time, I also found other, similar sites and pages:
1. lukewarm & defective defence of catholicism
2. messianic jew's tirade against Christian attitude against Jewish Christophobia
As I had already pointed out, in the Old Testament, God, by the way, the same God as of the New Testament, and by the Doctrine of the Concomitance of the Divine Persons, the same God as Jesus Christ, commanded the Israelites to perpetrate the complete genocide of the Canaanites and other aborigines of Israel.
Again, in the New Testament, St. Paul tells us, and I would remind you, that while St. Paul is not God, he, in the Bible, speaks inerrantly FOR God, saying, "he bears not the sword in vain" (Romans 13:4)
But it is exactly in vain if we are to accept your understanding.
Another relevant text is Ecclesiastes 3:8 - "A time of war, and a time of peace."
But to get the Catholic Church and its faithful rulers, men such as Pope Innocent IV, in perspective, one must consider the fact that Christianity not only demands the accession of individuals but also of societies and states. States are required to adopt the one true religion as the State Religion to the exclusion of all other cults.
I would refer you to the lists of the various kings and rulers of Israel and latter, of the Northern and Southern Kingdoms of Israel, in both the books of Kings and of the Paralipomenon or Chronicles. In these, the holy authors, speaking for God, weigh these and pass judgement, for being as faithful as David, or otherwise, and, what is more important here, for being intolerant or tolerant of the cults of the pagans, with those tolerant and complicit being rejected as bad and impious.
The attitude of the Church is different towards those who have never heard the gospel and to those who have become schismatics, heretics and / or apostates.
The Church does not believe it legitimate to force or compel the former to come to a belief in Christ, for this is something that is impossible to force.
However, with the latter, the Church believes and teaches (see St. Thomas of Aquin, Summa Theologica, etc.) that upon such persons, the State can and must use force to compel them to return to the true faith, and to prevent them from corrupting others with the poison of their heresies.
With regard to those who fall away again after having been reconciled once, theologians (see St. Thomas of Aquin, Summa Theologica, etc.) teach that it is just and proper that even though such should be compelled to return, yet nevertheless they should be exterminated, for by their inconstancy they show that they cannot be relied upon, and the danger of them corrupting others cannot be otherwise avoided.
I would only see a problem with torture, though I can see that torture, under limited conditions and under certain circumstances, is justified.
In the Papal States, the Pope is/was the Sovereign Governor, and so he could hardly avoid putting into practice the precepts of the Holy Faith even while he demanded that the various Christian Kings and rulers implemented the same, could he?
In the two pages I provide the links to, but more exactly the page on Secularism, I reproduced verbatim the teachings of the Church, which if you read carefully, you will find enlightening.
It is certain that the Inquisition was necessary. It is necessary even today. With the inquisition, sodomites, paedophiles, abortionists, pornographists, contumacious heretics and the like would be kept in check and be prevented from succeeding as they are today, in the process making the culture of the Anti-Christian West into a Culture of Death.
The Inquisition is the Garbageman of Christian Society. Without it, society will soon be overrun by weeds, with nothing to keep them in check. That is what has happened since the anticlericals have succeeded in overthrowing the Holy Inquisitions.
I would recommend these pages as being relevant to the topic:
Jewish Malice
The Jewish Question
Palehorse
Judæo-Masonic Christophobia
Putting The Pieces Together
The Church, the Inquisition & The Death Penalty
Racialism
Christianity & Zionism
Christianity & Zionism - 2
Contra Nazism 1
Contra Nazism 2
Contra Nazism 3
St. Cyril of Jerusalem & The Great Victory Against Julian the Apostate & the Jews
Prax Maskaren