From: [email protected]
Subject: Nurse Jones, getting more irresponsible by the minute
Date: 11 Feb 93 05:35:45 GMT
Re: Nurse Jones posts blind
From Nurse Jones,
First I get a nastynote from a feminist who *hates* ASB and everything
it stands for. And then...
Alex Martelli writes:
> Hmm, may I interfere in this delightful meeting of minds by disagreeing
> deeply, although in a most friendly vein, with you two charming young ladies?
No. ... Well, Ok. I'll listen, but I won't change my mind. I *never*
change my mind. Oh, wait: do mood swings count...?
> pookie@bigboy (pookie) writes:
>>Dangerous Maggie Jones writes:
.....
>: my experimentation with submissiveness. I have, in a way -- a
>: psychological way -- made Jay responsible for me. This allows me
>: to relax and do whatever I want because I know he is there in the
>: background setting the rules and he'll tell me if I screw up. And
>: within those limits I don't really care very much what anyone
>: *else* thinks of me.
>I imagine this approach works for Nurse Jones, since she states it
>so plainly, and I can even better understand *dreaming* about it (who
>hasn't?...). But I haven't seen working in this way, not long-term,
>in the full-time master/slave relationships I have observed or been
>involved in (including mine with Laylah, both ways).
Full-time? Did I say full time? Well, sometimes I say things I don't
mean. You know how I get excited sometimes.
Alex goes on:
>Note that I'm not disagreeing with all that's said here - far from it -
>indeed some aspects such as "I don't care very much what anyone else
>thinks of me", and the idea of complete submission and trust, are,
>in my opinion and experience, excellent points. It's a deeper point
>which finds me in disagreement.
Oooo. I love it when we get philosophical...
>: Is there a paradox here somewhere? The old "Bondage Will Set You
>: Free" routine?
>i think so...it sets me free...
(dmjones) *nods smugly to pookie*
And Alex pronounces:
>No disagreement here either - although the causation chain didn't work
>this way for me, I did see it working like this on Laylah, and I can
>emphatise deeply.
I can't spell either. Sorry to interrutp.
>Veering to religious language again, as is my sometimes
>wont, I state that the Sufi mystic's infinite Submission to the All,
>and the Crowleyan mystic's infinite Mastery of the All, are Paths to
>the same place as my own (me, I switch-hit with the All, and find it
>more fun and effective, but, again, that's just me).
Um... Submitting to the All? Whew. This is advanced stuff. I'm still
pretty jumpy around fluorescent Emperor-sized dildos....
I said,
>: Pookie wrote a very touching post recently in which she commented
>: that she wanted to be controlled. Maybe she meant she wanted
>: someone else to take responsibility for her. I was amazed to hear
...
>: The point is, I feel the same way Pooks does: I want to be
>: controlled. I am, in fact. I feel as though I am imbedded in Jay.
>: As though I am a subset of him.
>:
>: Does that make any sense?
and pooks said,
>complete sense...that is exactly what i want..exactly what i was
>trying to say in my post without coming out and saying it...and
and Alex said,
> Ok, this one is where I think the point I'm disagreeing with comes
> most clearly to the surface, so I'll try to express my disagreement
> just as clearly.
> If you were, indeed, a subset of another person, what would sie
> get out of a relationship with you?
Who is sie? You mean Jay? I hate these nouvelle pronoms. And you know,
Alex, that's the first time *anyone* has ever wondered what Jay gets
out of our relationship. I guess you'd have to know me.
> Once you are nothing, what is left?
Nothing?!? You need to see me in my new pirate boots, kiddo.
Okay, okay, I'll be serious. You're a Man, and you're probably being
logical or something. I forgive you.
But then you go on:
> I think any sort of love is never a lessening of one person into
> "a subset of the other", but, on the contrary, an enhancement of
> both into something greater than either - greater than the sum of
> both of them, if it's a *great* love. And this goes double for
> relationships of domination and submission. Are you submitting
> to yourself, dominating yourself? Not as much fun as submitting
> to an*other*, as taking control of an*other*. The otherness is
> a key point; the gulf to be bridged between the two electrodes
> is what makes sparks fly - if the voltage is high enough - without
> that gap of separation, no sparks.
... and on:
> The infinite diversity and variety of individuals is the wonder
> of life - chips from the same Block, are we all.
> Full control of another, full submission to another: both keys
> to the same lock. If instead you wilt away, how will the
> tumblers be made to turn any more? Hone the steel of your
> soul, for all its strength will be needed.
Huh? Wilt? Tumblers? Steel of my... ? Um... Well, keep going:
> When Laylah was pierced, last Solstice, she asked me and her
> Lady to be pierced as our slave, to offer her flesh to the
> needle *for us*. We assented. Her Lady instructed me to
> ask her a question, at the last moment, after a long period
> of physical, spiritual, and mental preparation. The
> question was - "Do you accept full responsibility for your
> body, in service to us?". Exactly as she answered "Yes"
> did the needle slide through her flesh. You think the metal
> now lodged in her body would have been just as perfect a
> sign of her slavedom, or maybe an even more perfect one,
> if she HADN'T accepted that responsibility? Apparently,
> from the way you talk about another "taking responsibility"
> *away* from the slave, you do. Here is were I disagree
> most strongly. "To be able to say ``I love'', you must
> first be able to say ``I''".
O, Alex, you do go on so. Are you sure you get enough fiber in your diet?
> Well, best of luck then. I hope, for your sake, that this "taking away
> of responsibility" is NOT what it sounds exactly like, or else that
> I'm deeply and utterly mistaken about all that I have learned in
> the many years that I have practiced and witnessed master/slave
> relationships.
A remnant of my original post snuck in:
>: I guess that's what submission is. Funny I don't think of it as
>: submission. Maybe I'm rationalizing. I don't think of it as a
>: loss of status. I don't think of it as degrading or humiliating.
>: I see myself as swimming freely in him. Within his limits.
> I think NJ is right about this not being submission;
Aha! I understood that part. I'm right about something! I win.
> submission
> is the laying of my will at the behest of another, not the utter
> disappearance of said will. The placing of oneself UNDER another,
> by etymology
Is this part about bugs? I hate bugs. (I'm doing it again, I know.)
> as well as by meaning, not INSIDE another - that
> would be "intromission"
I love it when you talk dirty, Alex.
> , say my memories of Latin.
It sounds (forgive me if I'm wrong) like you want your submissive to
be just independent enough to give you the illusion that you have
conquered someone worthy of your self image. But not so independant as
to be a genuine threat.
Wow. Where did that come from? Too many psychoactive drugs. Caffeine,
progesterone...
Sounds to me like you may be describing what you think I should be.
Should I be something instead of nothing?
I'm nobody. Are you nobody too? I'll leave it to you to follow up
Emily's train of thought.
[more stuff I didn't understand deleted...]
Then the pookster pops in with:
>>now do *i* make sense?
>Now, yes, you make perfectly good sense to me - for what it's worth -
>but it's only by contradicting what you had said previously, I
>think, that you manage to.
>Still, as I said, I hope I'm wrong. Though I have my doubts.
No, Alex you're absolutely right. I just don't understand all this
stuff. Okay, okay. I'll be serious, then. Ahem.
My turn:
Really, Alex, you think too much. When Jay comes up behind me and
enfolds me in his arms, I melt back against him and all is right with
the world. That's all that matters.
He is my aquarium, I am his tropical fish. I swim freely and safely
within his bounds. I look out, make faces, wiggle my fins, and
otherwise misbehave (like now) in safety. If I jumped out, I would die
gasping on the floor without him. And he without me.
I will say it again: I am a subset of Jay, just as his heart is a
subset of his "totalness" (that sounded like a word you might like). I
don't *want* my otherness to be separate from his selfness. Or
whatever.
He takes care of me the way he takes care of his own body. He enfolds
me, supports me, pampers me, spoils me, cares for me, loves me, and
sets me free. Example: I have the freedom to quit my job tomorrow; he
would support me. By allowing me this option he has given me the great
gift of knowing I choose nursing out of something other than economic
need.
As far as "being nothing"... yes. Sometimes he rends and tears and
shatters and all of me is swept away and there is nothing left -- not
a breath in my body -- not even the desire for breath. Yes. Sometimes,
after, there is nothing left of me...
Just lucky, I guess.
Sometimes it all seems very complicated to me. But your complicated
post made me realize how really simple it all is.
I know, I'm sorry. it's very difficult to hold an intellectual
conversation with me when I'm like this,
Then in another post: [email protected] (Jeslan C Silver) sez:
> I too was bothered by the discussion of submission as abdication of re-
> sponsibility for self. Alex said it all so beautifully.
Yes, he did, didn't he? But sometimes I just get *so* tired of being
responsible all the time. People always asking me what to do with the
lady in 301, 316 just threw up again, and 312 is having another
seizure. I come home smelling like latex gloves and clorox, and I
just want to rip off the uniform, take a shower, and "abdicate a
little responsibility for self."
> There is little to
> add except that both Marchesa and i emphasize frequently that i choose to
> have no choice when i submit, that her power over me stems from my giving
> her control of me.
> I had a Mistress before Marchesa who had a slave who practically became
> part of the furniture. She did nothing without permission and slowly lost
> all semblance of ego according to my former Mistress. My former Mistress
> found herself treating her slave like the barely sentient being she
> had become and was miserable.
Ewww.
> In fact i grew in my submission, a
> point i try to emphasize in my (not yet published) novel.
[more stuff I didn't understand deleted...]
> It is hard work being a slave.
Try nursing ...
> One does not sit back and let their
> brains blow away
This one does... just last night, in fact. Completely away. Feels good
after a 12 hour shift.
> and their personal responsibility disappear, when that
> happens, their ego disappears and indeed they do end up in
> psychiatric wards.
O, I dunno. I manage to blow my brains -- and my ego -- away on a
regular basis. (*blush*) I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.
I discovered I can get along pretty well without them. Well, the brain
comes in handy now and then. The ego gets in the way, mostly.
> My book "SM Path to Empowerment" is just what it says. Through a grueling
> series of punishments, a slave grows, learns and develops as an empowered
> person.
Sounds deep. I probably wouldn't understand it. I guess I'll wait for
the movie to come out.
> i know ive gone on for a long time,
No, not at all. No, really.
But a little fiber in your diet wouldn't hurt, either. Talk to Alex
about it. 8)
> but i feel so strongly about this, it is
> incredible. i was slave to my husband, slave as in dont think, dont feel,
> dont be. i also was enslaved (believe it or nnot) by a therapist.
Jeez. I bet the American Psychiatric Association would consider
enslaving a patient to be a breach of ethics. Probably.
> Thats a
> long story, but i was left with no will, no sense of self.
You lucky thing. I sometimes have to screw for hours to achieve this.
> As Kahlil Gibrhan (sp?) said "there must be spaces in your
togeetherness"
I think that's Kellog Allbran you're looking for...
Nurse Jones,
Keeping it
light and gay.
Jay will do the light bits...
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