See Engine Specs for a bit about Steve Beresford's 4.5 BV
Internet Mailing List Jul 96
Well the Chimaera has gone, and I now have a non-cat Griffith
in its place. It's LOUD, and spits flames on the overrun once
fully warmed up. The engine is so responsive great care is needed
at junctions and roundabouts! The body colour is not quite as
bright as the Macau Yellow of the Chimaera - it's Ocean Haze which
looks pretty good on the Griff. Even though the engine has the
same power and torque (according to TVR at least) it has a totally
different character without the cat - touch the throttle at low
revs and pickup is instant. You can even hear the induction roar
- it's great!
You do need a sense of humour with TVRs though. The speedometer
broke on the way home from collecting it! Good job it's under
warranty . . .
Steve Powell
Internet Mailing List Aug 96
No problems so far other than the speedometer which I think I
already mentioned, which only works about half the time on longer
journeys. That is due to be fixed shortly but since the gearing
is the same as the Chimaera I haven't found it to be a problem,
even when passing speed cameras, as I know the speeds from the
rev counter.
It is different in a number of areas to the Chimaera. The ride is worse as you would expect with lower profile tyres, and rear wheel control on bumpy roads isn't as good either. On the plus side, the steering is more accurate and turn-in is sharper, and on smoother roads the levels of grip are huge.
Although the boot is smaller there is more room inside the car, and not so much heat soak either. The battery is differently located and there is more legroom on the passenger side as a result. The roof folds down a bit further too which is welcome.
The car runs at 80C which is the ideal temperature for the engine, and never exceeds the white line at 90C even in heavy traffic and high temperatures, as we found out in a one hour traffic jam on the M25 going to Brands.
The engine is much more tractable and driving the car even in
traffic is a more rewarding experience - third gear is about as
low as you need to go in town unless you actually stop. When the
engine really gets into its stride at about 3,000 rpm you even
get a nice induction roar as well - it's so different to the same
engine with the cat and other emissions measures. That was all
or nothing below 2,000 rpm, otherwise the lean mixture caused
the engine to stutter. The Griff seems to be using maybe 5-10%
more fuel as a result, but it's worth it and at least it's only
four star. Another major benefit is that when I get it out of
the garage it doesn't fill my house with the sickly smell of super
unleaded!
Steve Powell
Internet Mailing List Sep 96
I've never driven a TVR in the City before, but I would expect
it to be frustrating. The car isn't meant to stand still in the
heat of traffic and will tend to get a bit hot (earlier Griff/Chimis
will). The gearstick will get hot, the door opener thingy on the
Chim will, the air vents will blow hot air even when the selector
is cool and other niggly things. A TVR to use in the city is okay
if you stretch its legs every so often on an open road or track
day. If not, I suspect the cylinders will get all choked with
carbon etc. If you're going to use the performance of the car
then go ahead, but if it's just going to be sat in the city and
therefore used as an image promotion tool only then buy something
else coz they're not great in the centres of towns clogged up
in traffic. Heavy clutches and steering on non PAS models is a
bugger when you park too.
Rupert Kent
Internet Mailing List Sep 96
I've just had someone on the phone who bought a used Chimaera
at 5,000 miles and has run it for 4,500 miles around London. It's
been intermittently losing power and cutting out and his dealer
now says it needs a decoke! I've spoken to another dealer about
it, and they said it was not impossible for a Chim to get in this
state if used a lot in heavy traffic. Others may have had different
experiences, but my guess is that if your friend used a Chim exclusively
for town driving he'd end up hating it - a bit like keeping a
greyhound in a flat.
Peter Beech
Internet Mailing List Jul 96
I can't comment on the Times article as I haven't read it, however
the high number of low mileage/1year old Tivs in the marketplace
is likely to be the "Morgan effect". The Morgan effect
typically occurs when a prospective car owner sees a Morgan +4
or +8 and decides it would be a lovely car to own, puts the deposit
down, waits 6 years for delivery and then finds its not as comfortable/fast/safe/driveable/maintenance
free as their BMW/Mercedes/Escort/Fiesta and sells it in the first
year. This can and does happen with TVR's, good news for people
like me - I'd far rather let someone else take the steep depreciation
curve and I'll buy after the "Morgan effect".
Andrew Guy
Internet Mailing List Jul 96
I can't comment on the article which you are referring to because
I missed it (can anyone scan it and post it to the mailing list?),
but while there are undoubtedly some highly publicised rogue cars,
this is not typical in my experience. Don't forget it's only the
really problematic cars which get into the national press, and
usually you only get the owner's side of the story. It is perfectly
true to say that they are more prone to problems than say most
Japanese or German cars, but when you are getting F40 performance
for the price of a mid-range Mercedes saloon you can't have everything.
I am sure if TVR doubled the price the cars could be 100% reliable,
but how many of us would like to pay twice as much for that? I
had a Chimaera for 18 months with only one minor problem - a speedometer
failure. No breakdowns, leaks or electrical problems whatsoever.
I personally know quite a few Griffith and Chimaera owners who
could tell you the same story - although there are others on the
mailing list who did report some problems earlier this year.
If you are buying new you have the advantage in that the car cannot
have been mistreated by its first owner. If there are any teething
troubles (and there may well be with a hand-built car, even Astons
and McLaren F1s are not immune) they should be sorted immediately
by the dealer at no cost to yourself. It will pay you to buy the
car from a dealer with a good reputation, rather than just the
cheapest, as they are the most understanding if things go wrong.
Don't expect another TVR as a loan car if you need one - it doesn't
happen! And the reason why the cars are often only kept for a
year or so is simple - very low depreciation means you don't have
to save for very long to get the next one. I'm on my third TVR
in four and a half years.
Steve Powell
Internet Mailing List Jul 96
I just read the same article and some of the points sounded far
too familiar. My personal experience was with a Griff 500 that
I bought as an ex-demo when it was about 9 months old (and under
the skin it's pretty much the same as a Chimaera). To cut a long
story short it was a pain in the arse to own and it was not reliable.
I'm sure you'll get a lot of replies from people who have had
no reliability problems, but I can only state my personal experiences
(and I'm not alone!). If you'd like more details drop me some
mail; I sold it after 5 months because I need a car I can rely
on.
Gary Walsh
Internet Mailing List Jul 96
I have had my Chimp for 2 years and I have taken it to France
as well as all over Scotland, in total it has only let me down
twice in 20,000 miles, once when the gear linkage broke (I obviously
slam it pretty hard through the gears!) and once when a prat at
an airport car park left the door ajar after parking it, flattening
the battery. Personally I have friends and acquaintances queuing
up for me to take them for a spin and I have never had anyone
make any negative comments about the car. Actually the most common
comment is "F-----g Hell!" (normally heard when proving
that the published acceleration figures are correct). Take the
Times article with a pinch of salt and join the ranks of Chimp
owners who always have broad grins on their faces as they blast
around the countryside.
Steve Williams
Internet Mailing List Aug 96
It's taken me a couple of weeks to get hold of this article. To
avoid any problems over copyright infringement I'm not posting
the original text, but I've written this short 'review' instead.
1. Engine overheating.
2. Unspecified electrical failures.
3. Faulty air conditioning.
4. Faulty wipers.
5. Rattling exhaust.
6. Rear suspension' needed replacing.
7. Rain coming in between windows and top, into boot and into
driver's footwell.
8. Speedo packed up.
9. Radio reception very poor.
10. Doors locked themselves once while the car was left with the
engine running. Phoned factory who advised breaking a window.
Owner got in by opening hood with a broom handle.
11.Three occasions when windows suddenly steamed up while driving.
12.Engine repeatly stalling and not re-starting for two or three
minutes. Happened 32 times (sic) on one journey into the West
End (presumably from owner's home near Watford).
The owner took his complaints to TVR Engineering (presumably after taking them to the dealer, although the article didn't actually say this), wasn't satisfied with the response and wrote to Peter Wheeler asking for "the courtesy of a reply". The article quoted Wheeler's reply as saying "I am convinced you do not know the meaning of the word". At one stage (it did not say whether this was before or after writing to Wheeler), Mr Moore went into the TVR Centre "shouting and waving my arms around and saying the car was rubbish". He was threatened with an injunction banning him from the premises.
The TVR Centre agreed to sell the car for Mr Moore and got �28,450 for it. The article implied hat the dealer was reluctant to do this. They also asked him to agree that "neither he nor any associate of his shall at any time in the future purchase a new TVR", which he refused to do. At some stage in all this the owner contacted The Times who made their own approach to TVR Engineering. They received a response from solicitors acting for the TVR Centre who said that there were numerous inaccuracies in Mr Moore's story. The case had also been taken up by the Legal Protection Group at some point, who said that Mr Moore had been "tolerance personified" and that they had received ten similar stories about TVRs breaking down.
That, more or less, is it.
Now, since this is a review I'll indulge myself by making some comments.
1. I don't understand why the TVR Centre were reluctant to sell the car for Mr Moore. This is, after all, what dealers do for a living. I am guessing that the settlement they reached involved giving up their sales margin, but the article is silent on this.
2. If you'd been writing the Times article, wouldn't you have tracked down the new owner of the car and found out whether they were having problems with it too? [Rumour has it that the TVR Centre got a letter from the new owner saying they were completely happy with the car, but the Times wouldn't publish it.]
3. Wouldn't you have commented on the fact that any car had managed to retain 89% of its value after fifteen (ish) months? Sounds pretty good for a hunk of junk.
4. What happened about the problems? Did the dealer fix any/some/all of them? Why was the car off the road for four months and what the hell was going on during this time?
5. Was the factory really as offhand as the article implies? If
anyone reading this has found it necessary to take a complaint
to the factory, it would be interesting to know what sort of treatment
they got.
Peter Beech
Internet Mailing List Aug 96
Your experience of Griff 500 vs Griff 4.0 concurs with a long
held view of TVR reliability, namely that the more TVR mess with
things, the worse they get. This will no doubt be controversial,
and I expect I will receive much abuse through these pages, however
as a totally unbiased S2 owner, (who commutes 25 miles each way
by Tiv), it appears to me that there are generally fewer problems
with these cars (certainly 2.9 onwards) and that this is probably
due to the high percentage of "straight from the box"
components, including engine and gearbox. Moving to V8 cars, as
an observer, it seems that the further TVR move away from the
original Rover unit the more unreliable it gets and the more oil
it burns. OK so maybe there is no gain without pain, and poor
reliability may be acceptable to those of you who want max power
for a Sunday afternoon blast. But I have read quite a few messages
lately from contributors who have sold Griffs and returned to
tin-tops because they need a reliable car. Maybe a Tiv using closer
to standard components would be a compromise (eg S, V8S, 350i
etc). Going to the logical conclusion of the Cerbie with so many
"special to type" components? Time will tell, but I
know where my money lies.
Richard Eggleston
Letter Aug 97
Peter
Many thanks for your time and effort in putting together the workshop
notes, they are most useful. Regarding the overheating survey..
well I suppose all I can say is.. yes it overheats to the point
where the fluid boils when I stop the car. No the garage can't
find it, and anyway my TVR is the most unreliable car I have ever
had. I have come to expect that I only share my car with the dealership,
it literally has spent twice as much time at the dealers than
I have spent drivng it,
I purchased it with 1800 miles on the clock from Brooklands at Exeter, and rejected it within a few weeks as the car was full of water, leaking oil, and suffering electrical problems. Despite lots of letters, the dealers refused to refund my money and sent the car to Blackpool, where the body shell was found to be porous. It was sealed with gell and the car returned to me. It still leaked although not as badly. In fact it still leaks.
Engine problems abound. Water consumption when the engine is behaving is about a pint a week, when its not behaving it dumps the lot on the road! Problems so far include:
Currently the car is at Broughtons in Bristol, where they are attempting to find an intermittant overheating problem, despite the fans working, the indicated engine temperature goes off the scale and the fluid boils when I stop the car. So far they have had two attempts to correct this, and I have driven the car 25 miles in the last two weeks. Currently the car has 19000 miles on the clock and is two years old.... I can't wait to get rid of it!
It seems amazing to me that NOBODY talks about TVRs in this manner.
If the facts were known more widely no-one would purchase them.
Isn't your decision not to publish the overheating survey contibuting
to the problem?
Denis Lomax
Denis,
Bloody hell! That is absolutely disgusting. I honestly don't think
this is common, otherwise I'm sure I'd hear about it more often,
but if I was in your position I'd be wheeling the big guns out
right now - solictor, trading standards officer, small claims
court, AA/RAC inspector, the lot. The main finding of the overheating
survey from your point of view is that I can find no evidence
of inherent design features that make TVRs overheat. If your car
does overheat then it is, by this definition, defective.
I'm slightly hurt by your last sentence because I had every intention
of sending the survey results to Sprint until the editor told
me about TVR's reaction to it. Do remember that I'm not a club
official, just an ordinary member. I don't speak for the club
and I've no interest in getting involved in club policy or politics.
I don't think Sprint would have published the survey results after
the ear-bending they got from TVR over the questionnaire, and
I'm not going to submit things if there is any possibility of
them being sanitised before they get into print. I think it's
a great shame that the club has to choose between its racing &
social activities (which need the factory's cooperation) and giving
technical and consumer support to owners but it's not the first
time a car club has faced this dilemma and in their position I'd
probably make the same decision. If you do want a club that offers
cheap parts, legal support, dealer satisfaction surveys and all
that good stuff, you're going to have to start your own.
Peter
Peter,
Many appologies for "getting at you" in my reply, your
previous email arrived just after my car vomited over the main
road, after collecting it from the dealers.. all of 5 miles and
30 mins driving. (it's still there today!). I really appreciate
your work on the notes, being an engineering type myself I find
them really helpful.
The car has been a total disaster, trouble is .. every time I start to get solicitors involved, the dealer takes it back and promises a full repair job. Seems hard to argue with that, however there is always something else within a few weeks, and I have to start again.
What I find hurtful are glowing reports on Top Gear and the like, that just hint at unreliablilty or other probs, that is if you can hear the commentary under the "Guns and Roses" music.
Looking at your survey results makes me wonder if it would be
worth pressing for a different vehicle, it looks as if the others
are more reliable. For your information, I keep the car in a garage,
and at most do 10 miles a day in it on my way to work. It really
is a gorgous and totally stunning car, when it works.... so that's
the problem!
Denis Lomax
Letter Sep 97
. . . Regarding some people's problems with reliability, perehaps
TVR have improved things with the Griffith recently. I've done
22,000 miles in just under two years. My engine uses about half
a litre of oil between services. Rear tyres still have about four
thousand miles left in them. Only problem was a failed fuel guage
within the first thousand miles, and a leaking clutch hydraulic
pipe at twenty thousand. Else the car has been totally reliable,
and seems to do 25 to the gallon when reasonably gently driven.
I love it!
Tony Miller
Letter Dec 97
Faults on a Griff 500 in Cyprus, since new in July 94.
Windows whistling. Adjusted using vertical screw inside door
Fuel gauge stuck at max for a while then needle moved erratically. Cured itself.
Fuel Gauge drops too quickly from full then empty means it really has 1/3 tank. Nice quirk so kept it as a large reserve facility.
Clicking odometer eventually stopped working. (Just like all the hire cars in Cyprus!) Replaced same but colour had changed so TVR sent a whole new set of clocks which were great fun to fit! Unfortunately 1 week after, oil pressure gauge needle fell off! Same nice job taking dashboard front out to fit old colour one.
Battery flattened quickly & replaced twice. Also, ignition light flickering indicating alternator not performing. TVR supplied new 90amp alternator FOC which we had to machine the shaft to fit. Solved flickering but battery still prone to failure. Problem worsened until battery died a death then out of warranty period. After trying many suggestions by Paul Arab, our autoelectricians spent countless hours of exhaustive diagnosis and finally traced the problem to an insufficiently sized elec. cable supplying the battery/ECU from the alternator. This was replaced with higher amperage capacity cable and with a new battery I have never has a problem (even starts after 2 weeks non-use). Note, TVR would only reimburse cost of same as credit against a new car purchase!
Door seal falling off. Fix on with contact adhesive several times.
Door close sensor for alarm/courtesy lights etc. clicking in & out when door closed. Glued small piece of rubber inside base of door to push sensor pin in further when door closes and makes contact with same.
Top of range Pioneer CD/cassette/radio cuts out on left hand bends, whistles with interference, jumps on bumpy surfaces. Secured connections and eventually went away. Took to hi-fi specialist who tried suppressors but didn't work. Have been told by people incl. TVR that this problem exists. End of story but disappointment for �1K worth of system.
A/C dripping water into car. Dave Bateman confirmed nearly 1 year later that the system still in development stage but kindly assisted in resolving when over here on hols. Firstly a/c. compressor gave up. TVR supplied new one. Many attempts per TVR instructions to re-silicone seal the cover under the bonnet housing the expansion valve to avoid air coming in. This did nothing as was gaping hole inside by heater box / electrics. Nearly 1 year later, replaced heater box with fully air sealed one with cork tape (air causes condensation which was dripping everywhere incl. on electrics). Repiped same with new pipes & exp. valve and recharged a/c. system. Worked well.
Also, fitted improved ducting to vents in dashboard. (approx. 12 hours work in total). If any old models exist and wish to fix problem, I have rough guidelines (14 points) for the job by Dave Bateman which look easier than in practice. Now a/c. works fine but can't use because aggravates overheating problem.
Under bonnet heat starting to take effect on components so prevention measures were required. Received great help & advice from Mark Mini in Holland. TVR supplied 2 rolls of Demon Tweeks Turbotec 11002 insulation banding for exhausts which were professionally fitted overlapping & held firm using stainless steel wire. Hasn't moved after 2 years. Also, Land Rover remote ignition module STC1856 kit to site away from heat. No ignition problems now except when overheating and ECU goes crazy.
Drilled small holes in lip of bonnet where hidden below windscreen.
Reversing light intermittent then eventually 100% inoperative. TVR thought it was a positioning problem but after spending time like a gynecologist squeezing fingers above exhaust into small gap trying to reposition which worked for about 10 minutes each time, we ended up replacing it and which solved the problem.
Door mirror hanging loose after heavy handed car wash attendant moved it (the only time I didn't wash the car myself). Very tricky one to remove using sawn off allen key. Eventually fastened down in permanent fixed position after much trial & error. Can explain further upon request.
Intermittent Horn. Probably faulty through high temp. Fitted new one & is fine.
Headlight silicone wearing away leaving a gap between lens and bodywork. Only silicon holding the whole unit in place. Was a hell of a job trying to hold headlight in place to seal it and eventually had to make metal fixing to hold it. Other one needs sealing soon.
Ticking noise from engine. Was found to be near-side exhaust manifold gasket leaking. Very awkward to replace but used semi-metal type rather than weak type original.
Water Pump leaking. Had to replace same and modify to fit.
Coolant overheating problem. Problem was strangely almost non existent when car was new (rarely reaching into the red). But gradually worsened until even in winter temperatures would reach past the red to maximum needle travel (140?) and would not fall below the red even at speed.
In August this year, Perry (mechanic) spent 3 days checking the whole coolant system top to bottom and rewired all fans to achieve better performance. Also used aforementioned bleeding method and at this time only, the car maintained 90deg.C at all times even on tickover for 15 mins. in ambient temps. of 100deg. C. only reaching toward the red (but not into) when using the a/c. It even dropped towards 80 deg. when at speed.
However, the situation over the following weeks reverted back to overheating when the fan bearings eventually gave up, blowing fuses and the coolant actually boiled over several times. It is my hope that if I can fit 2 reliable high performance fans that all will be well.
I am running at the moment with 1 dragging Demon Tweek fan plus
testing an old Merc.190E fan which has a broken plastic bearing
housing and the blade catches the frame of the fan making a racket.
You can hear such a big increase in air movement with the Merc.
fan and it is amazingly managing to keep the temperature at 90
deg. until stuck in traffic when it slowly rises into the red.
Ken Dobson