The Craig Cackowski Interview

Interview took place on Sunday, March 3, 2002, around 6:15pm in the upstairs green room of the Improv Olympic.

Jon: No, no, no. [Craig laughs a little] And by the way, for the record, that was TJ's idea.

Jon: Okay. [laughs a little] Hi, welcome to "Interview," and joining me today is Craig Cackowski. Thank you Craig for doing this interview with me.

Jon: Okay, um, let's see here. Let's start at the beginning. You grew up in either Virginia or North Carolina? Which- Yes, no?

Craig: Not really. Not 'till my senior year of high school when I�took a drama class and I auditioned for Our Town, and I played the stage manager who's the narrator-

Craig: -of Our Town. And I was in plays for uh, the rest of my senior year and that made me think of being a theater major in college since I really didn't have any idea of where I wanted to�go with�my life.

Jon: William and Mary. Not William of Mary, 'cause that would be kind of different. Um�how, how was that school�for you?

Craig: I was a theater major there, which is very insular�department. Where I didn't- most of my classes were theater classes and I was involved in productions the whole time and I made a lot of great friends. And, um�we were freaks, weirdos. It was- it was just fun to�meet�odd people�like myself and I got involved in the improv there my junior year.

Jon: How did you, ah, find out about that? Or how did you officially, like, decide- click in your mind, go "okay, I'm gonna start doing this?"

Craig: Ah�I saw them my freshman year and they blew me away. I, at the time, I was very intimidated by them and I assumed that I could never do anything like that. And I uh�I somewhat nervously auditioned my sophomore year- didn't get in. I was tentative at the audition. But by the time of my junior year, I knew everyone in the group, they were all friends of mine, and they were all saying to me, 'why don't you do this? You'd be so great at it, you're so funny.' Ah�and so that gave me some confidence going into the audition the next time. Although they probably just let me in cause I was their friend�[both laugh a little]�by that time. I ended up directing it my senior year.

Craig: Stands for Improvisational Theater. And�there's a number of other William and Mary alumni [that] perform here at�

Craig: -Ali Davis, I went to college with. She was in the group with me. Ah, and Stuart Ranson, was a freshman when I was a senior but he didn't get into the group 'til the following year. And Brendan Dowling, Jenny Hagel, Sean Monahan, Sean Casey, Todd Edwards, and Joey Bland.

Jon: Upon graduation of William and Mary, ah, what was your frame of mind and what made you decide to come to Chicago?

Craig: Well, ah, a friend of mine from the group was talking about moving to Chicago because he had gone to DePaul before William and Mary. And he was a big Second City fan. He really wanted to do that. Ah�but he had another semester of school to do. So, I kind of made vague plans to move to Chicago with him. I wanted to try to be an actor, somewhere. I didn't want to go to New York or LA; I wasn't ready. Ah, so I ended up living at home for about nine months. And I performed with an improv group in D.C. And I worked at the, ah, Folger Shakespeare Theater, in D.C. for awhile and basically just annoyed my parents being around for awhile until my friend, who was able to move to Chicago. When we moved here: ah, I think February of '92.

Jon: Okay. Fast forward ten years later and you've now gone through the ranks of the Chicago improv. And you're still in Chicago, do you- are you- have your thoughts of LA or New York changed at all?

Craig: Well I�definitely feel, experience-wise, that I'm ready to go to one of those places.

Craig: I like it here in Chicago. I know that I can earn a living here in Chicago, which is good-

Craig: -to know that. Um�the thing that intimidates me about New York is the cost of living there and I know that I wouldn't have a job. Uh, LA, also expensive, but there's so much more work out there. So, if I were to go out there, there's just more things to audition for. More TV, movies�that are done there. I think the odds are slightly better there.

Craig: So it was five days of work. Monday we showed up and did a read-through around the table of the script. And we were live videoconference with James L. Brooks who was in LA, who was a producer-

Craig: And met Joan and met the rest of the cast members and, ah� The rest of the week was long hours of rehearsal, although it was cool, I had my own trailer, which had a TV and a microwave and a shower and everything in it.

Craig: Even for a bit part, they gave me a trailer, which was very cool. And it was just interesting to see the inner workings of a television show, uh, as a performer on it and as an insider. And basically it just made me feel comfortable. Like, "oh, I get it. It's kind of like Second City" but on a different, larger scale-

Craig: -where the stakes are higher and people make more money. But, you know, there's a lot of people working on something together and it made me comfortable and less intimidated about the prospect of doing something like that.

Jon: Okay. Um�in the Annoyance Productions, Mick Napier and I forget who else is his co-producer, um, is- they're trying to get-

Jon: Yes, thank you. Are trying to get productions here in Chicago as far as films and stuff. 'Cause Chicago has a wealth of talents as far as talent-wise. Um�what do you think about the, ah, ability for them to get this project off the ground?

Craig: Well, I know that they've been working their asses off toward it. And, ah, I know that that's been Mick's goal for a number of years. 'Let's make Chicago a viable place, equal to the two coasts.' It definitely is in terms of talent. And the talent that I see coming in to the IO is just staggering. Um� Yeah, ideally, ah, this should be a place- I think it's going to take a number of years for� The groundwork has been laid for a number of years and we're still�working toward it. I think what people should do is just start making their own films and the whole digital revolution, I think-

Craig: -makes that easier. Um�because the talent is here and we can make it a viable place.

Jon: Right. Uh�you're a teacher at- here at IO. Uh, I had you at level 2 and in level 5 and currently, wh- You teach level 5, do you also teach level 2 or-

Craig: So many things. The opportunity to pass on knowledge and experience that I've gained from learning from the best. I learned from Del Close for a year, and when I was coached by Adam McKay, Matt Besser, uh, Ian Roberts. Top notch people, who were at the top of their game, and hopefully from that- from just doing it and learning from the best that I've learned some things that I can pass along to people. Ah, I just like�watching the talent of seeing the people that are eventually going to work with me as my peers and kind of initiating them into this cult that is called the Improv Olympic.

Craig: I also feel that IO has definite approach to the work that's fairly clearly defined. Even though different teachers here may have slightly different points of view on some minor issues, we all pretty much have the same philosophy and it all come down from Charna and Del's philosophy when they started this place. So having a set and easily articulated curriculum that there are definite things that we want an IO improviser to work on. So, making sure the work is done the right way is also fun for me.

Craig: The "right" way is truthful, not trying to be funny, working together as an ensemble, ah, and just being honest and real and finding comedy through that.

Jon: Okay. Um� �must think of other stuff� um�okay. I'll talk about this one. There's a lot of people [who] talk about success in improv and it means a lot of different things to different people. For some, it might mean being on the main stage of Second City. It might mean going on to Saturday Night Live or to LA. Ah, it might mean getting on a house team at IO. There's a whole spectrum of what that means to people. What does success mean to you? As far as, if someone tells you that you're successful, what do you think that you'd be successful in? [Craig laughs] I don't know.

Craig: Um�well I definitely feel like I've been fortunate to achieve some "success." [I laugh because Craig did the quotation marks gesture with his fingers] You should know that I'm making-

Craig: Okay. I don't know. The way I got to the main stage was I always set, like, a�what I thought was a reachable goal�in front me. So, when I started classes, like, "I want to get on a team." Then I wanted to get on a house team.

Craig: And, you know, so kind of taking it one step at a time. I'm- And of course the structure at Second City is kind of set up-

Craig: Um, I think there's a certain status accorded people who are on the main stage just because they're, they're on the main stage.

Craig: But, ah�I think I was fortunate enough to have been considered a pretty good improviser before I ever got there. Before I even worked at Second City. And so that was good. Just, I think, success to me is being happy with what you're doing and having the respect of your peers.

Jon: Okay. Um�now that you're done at Second City, you've now had the time to be able to direct some groups and, ah, devote more time to playing on Carl and the Passions here at IO. Um, so� Basically you wear a lot of hat of directing, coaching, teaching, performing, ah, how do you approach each of those differently? Especially the directing, coaching, and teaching when you go into the scr- with a set of people- your mindset to teach them the [in the] best possible [way] that you can?

Craig: Well, teaching is everything I said it was before. Of just kind of passing on the knowledge, working on the IO way of doing things and hopefully giving people some individual attention as well. Of molding them to be the best possible version of themselves�as possible. So, it's kind of information and individual; holding the individual. Coaching is holding the ensemble. So, your job as a coach at IO is to get everyone on the same page, to be supportive, ah, to give good but constructive notes. And the parallels between coaching and, like, coaching a sport are, are very true.

Craig: I think. Of kind of motivating them to do the best possible show that they can do. And making sure that everyone is [an] equally contributive team member. Directing it depends on what the project is. Um, I'm working with a group of Goldbrick now that did a show called "Dig" last year with Grondy. Um, and they ah, they had their ensemble already for the most part so I don't really need to work on ensemble building. It's mostly just figuring out what we want the show to be and kind of getting them to adapt to my way of doing things and my vision and getting to discover what their vision is and just finding a way for those things to work together.

Jon: Okay, um�we've covered all these things. [Indicating the questions written down on the pad of paper I bring to the interviews]

Jon: Yes they are. [Craig laughs] "You must talk longer." Ah, I'll come up with more. Ah, one thing that I definitely like about you is that you're also a movie geek. Since I'm a movie geek.

Jon: But, by the sounds of it, you're probably much more of a movie geek than me-

Jon: Um, all right, I'm going to talk from my own perspective now. This year, I was lis- I was watching you- reading, I think it was, ah, the IC, about the Academy Award nominations and you had this huge list of-

Jon: -diatribe type things. And I definitely agreed with some of them. Especially the Naomi Watts�definitely [should have] gotten at least a recognition for her, at least for her performance. Um, and where I'm leading to this is that I now have more respect for the Independent Spirit Awards than I do have [for] the Academy Awards. It has much more prestige and respect. Um, what do you th- what are your thoughts on the whole Hollywood system as far as giving out awards to�?

Craig: [laughs] Well, I mean, there's been a problem with the Oscars throughout its whole history.

Craig: -actually. And I think you can be a film fan and an Academy Award fan. If you try to be both at the same time you'll drive yourself crazy.

Craig: Or at least a movie fan. [both laugh] And, I think, you know, they get it right about as often as they get it wrong and they're- sometimes they're egregiously wrong. But being an Oscar observer over the years, like, you kind of know Thora Birch and Naomi Watts are not going to be nominated. And those are probably two of the five best actress nom- performances of the year. But, just given the history, ahhhh, you know, they're- they're more difficult movies, ah�

Jon: I was, yeah- I was listening to ah, ah Michael Stipe who is a producer talk about it. It's more, like, that's why they call it the "spirit" awards. 'Cause a lot of studios now have their own Independent ah, distribution ah, place. And, you know, there's different films with the kind of�are geared with different sort of budgets.

Jon: Like Election, which was, like, hugely budgeted but it definitely had the feel that this was something different.

Craig: -an independent film. And a lot of the films that really inspired the best filmmakers of today are Hollywood productions of the early to mid '70s, which everyone refers to as the Renaissance of-

Craig: Where the studio heads were actually pretty cool guys who believed in movies and also were willing to give some power to the filmmakers. So you had, you know-

Craig: And all those guys really at the top of their powers. Which leads us to Jaws and Star Wars-

Craig: -ruining films, which isn't really my argument [I laugh] but some people will, ah, will say that. But it all does kind of tie in together to the, ah, to it all being about money and putting all their eggs in the blockbuster basket.

Jon: Yeah. It's almost, like, revisiting of the 1950s where they have epic stories like Cleopatra, Ben-Hur, and the whole entire studio was banging their- was like-

Craig: 'Cause they were competing with TV then. TV had just emerged and they losing viewership to, ah, television so they had to, ah, to go for those epics.

Jon: Yeah. Movies in general, the evolution of- as far as theater going has definitely changed. I mean, when the theater was first up it was, it was, like, TV and movies combined. You know, you had your little shorts, you show your movie, then you show, ah, the news reels of the day and then you'd do the trailers of what's to come. That was a huge�event. You know, you'd spend probably like four hours at the movie theater, probably.

Jon: Where as now, it's just the previews and then movie and then, "get everyone out of there."

Craig: Yeah, the, ah�the other thing I wanted to say�on film is�.[laughs] had what I really wanted to say but forgot. �Um, all right, move on and all.

Jon: [laughs] What are- what are some of your favorite films? Since you, I mean, since you've got a list of your-

Craig: -was that I just hate it when people, like, every year, just like, bemoan the ah, the state of movies, like, "ah, this was a shitty year for movies." Well, what they mean is like, "ah, Hollywood put out a bunch of shit."

Craig: But, the older I get and more into film I get and now with the availability of, of DVDs and really having a fairly close experience at home, it just makes you delve in more to other things. To foreign and independent films�

Craig: �art films or whatever. You just have to look harder for it. But, I actually saw a number of great films this year and a lot of them were studio productions. So, I think people can't base, can't rate the whole year on whether, like, the- the movies that Hollywood hyped the most turned out to be good.

Craig: 'Cause usually they don't. And like, when I see everything that is coming out the next year, it's like, "Spider-Man? Yeeeeah," it might be cool or it might be hack-

Craig: -too, you know. Lord of the Rings is actually pretty amazing that they got it right.

Jon: I haven't- I- I'm still reading the first book of the trilogy. Um, so I didn't see though. But I'm sure-

Jon: -of, like, things I've seen it's- it's like- it seems, especially the special effects, it looks really, really, really good.

Jon: Um, one movie that, that I liked despite the hype and despite everyone else's protest was A.I. I actually thought that-

Craig: I liked A.I. a lot and I thought it was�a beautiful and intelligent and complex film. And, I think people just- it was heavily hyped, it was a summer movie, it was a Spielberg movie in name, but it was really a Kubrick movie.

Craig: And I think also Eyes Wide Shut was a film that, like, drew like, "Awww! It blew," you know? 'Cause, like, it's Tom Cruise and it's supposed to have all this hot sex in it or whatever. It's like, "no, it's- it's a Kubrick film [laughs a little], " you know? He's probably the biggest genius that American cinema has ever seen. All of his films are difficult [laughs], you know?

Craig: Ah, that they keep changing what you think it is, ah, during th- each viewing and with subsequent viewings. So, I think that people, ah, didn't give enough credit and I'm excited to see it again on DVD 'cause I only saw it the one time in the studio. I imagine I'll like it more the second time around.

Jon: I don't know. 'Cause, it was just definitely weird. When I saw it, there was, like- First of all there was a whole bunch of, like, 5 people had their cell phones go off, like, during the first 10 minutes of the movie, which is just irritating as hell. And it was also just kind of a- a weird film.

Jon: Um, yeah. Weird directors, it's hard for me to swallow. Like Kubrick and, um, Lynch. Like Mulholland Drive-

Craig: I want to see that again. I want to see Man Who Wasn't There again. Because I like both films but I'm not sure exactly what I think. I think you really n- I want to see Gosford Park again.

Craig: Uh, because I think the best directors, you should give them that consideration to view it multiple times.

Craig: I think three times will tell you. Will allow you to really decide what you think about a, ah, a challenging or good movie. May take you three times to decide that it's a piece of shit. Ah, most movies, however, you can tell with one viewing-

Craig: But my favorite films- my favorite film is One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Ah, then Citizen Kane, then Brazil, then, um, The Graduate, Schindler's List. That would be my top 5.

Jon: Very cool. I still haven't seen a lot of those. Still have yet to see Cuckoo's Nest, I still have yet to see The Graduate the whole way through. I just recently, ah, saw Citizen Kane for the first time. And maybe because I saw [it] so late, and so many films I've seen prior to that have copped that-

Jon: -kind of view. Especially, um, Immortal Beloved. It's basically the same story line but with Beethoven [Craig laughs] in the center instead of Citizen Kane.

Jon: It's exactly the same, you know? Someone dies, someone's trying to, you know, in Immortal Beloved trying to find out who his "Immortal Beloved" was-

Jon: -Beethoven's was. And, you know, in a, a Citizen Kane someone's trying to find out who "Rosebud" is.

Jon: You know, and they talk to people subsequently and it will go- flashbacks of what, what happened that time. So, it's almost identical. So I'm sure, 'cause when I first saw Immortal Beloved I was "that was really good." So I'm sure if I saw Citizen Kane�for the first time, when, like, it came out or before I saw that movie, I'd be like, "that's pretty good." But�

Craig: That's why I- I like to see movies if they're- if it's something I've been looking forward to seeing or if it's, like, a really major release, I like to ideally see it on the first day; preferably in the first week. Ah, and I try not to know that much going in because you always measure it against its own hype and reputation.

Craig: And uh�ideally, like, everything would just be: you discover this movie, you know nothing [laughs while saying] about it. You know it's impossible with Citizen Kane.

Craig: You know, um. Yeah I think it's much easier for people to watch than now watching it with like, "okay, this is the greatest film ever." Ah�

Jon: Yeah. Expecting way too much than way too little. There's definitely ah�you can attribute that to anything you basically watch. Improv or movies and film, something like that.

Jon: 'Cause some movies that I've- didn't think little- thought little of surprised me. Films that I was hoping were better weren't.

Jon: Same thing for improv groups or certain group that performs here, is overly hyped by my opinion, I think is just crap. I'm not going to say who it is, [Craig laughs] I'll just keep it to myself. And then other things are amazingly great that don't get hyped that much at all.

Jon: Um�you went through all thr- Did you go through all three of the steps at Second City? The TourCo�

Craig: Yeah. [I] toured for ah, about three years, I was on E.T.C for about two and a half and main stage for one.

Jon: Um�how, how do you think that changed you as a performer? Did it make you a better sketch writer? Did it make you a better performer? All the�

Craig: So, in terms of being a writer: no. In terms of knowing the right way- I guess yes in a sense, although writing is the wrong word. Gives me a, a sense of�

Craig: Structure. The right way that a scene should take place and the right way for a comic scene to be. Ah, it mostly made me an immensely better actor and performer. Just the experience of being on stage every night, doing the same thing, you know? The a- can on the 200th performance of this review, can you make this moment work as good as it's worked before? Can you make it work better?

Craig: Um, just teaches you great timing, uh, how to discover the rhythm of an audience, ah, and adjust each night to that audience. Adjusting to different cast members, like somebody comes in to do, either as an understudy or permanently to replaces someone else's parts. How do you adjust to make the scene just as funny with them or making it funny in a different way?

Craig: So ah, challenges like that are just immeasurable how much I learned and how much better I got just from the chance to do that.

Craig: Ah, it's an immense honor and [to] hear Robert Klein introducing it [I laugh] is pretty cool too, yeah.

Jon: Right. Um�one of the first directing things you did was the JTS Brown. Um�I know that you talked about the JTS Brown before in the "Inside the Improviser's Studio" so I won't exactly ask that again since it would be rehashing. But, um�have- has- have we hit the limit of new forms? Sort of like, there's "we can't invent any more things. 'Everything that's already been invented has been invented already.'" That- that kind of line, back in the 1900s. [Craig laughs] Could that be, um�?

Craig: Well, in a sense: yes. Uh, because it all comes down to Harold and what we've learned from Del.

Craig: And I really believe that anything that we've done that Del toyed around with it in class or imagined it in a- on an LSD trip [laughs] or something um�

[At this point, the voice recorded clicks off due to running out of tape space on that side of the tape; waiting for me to turn the tape around. However, both of us, Craig and I, didn't hear the recorder make a sound or any sound that it usually makes when the record and play buttons pop back up. So we continued on talking on and on about great topics and the information minded from this discussion were amazing and profound and would blow your mind. Seriously though, we talked on about structures and the IO schedule and a couple other things.
About fifteen minutes later, having a sense of time and wondering why I haven't heard the recorder click yet, I check the recorder and realize that it turned off. "Shit," I said. I flipped the tape over and started recording again.]

Jon: -definitely, I think we definitely missed the 'what do you need to work on?' So, if you don't mind�rehashing that.

Craig: Oh, okay. What do I need to work on? Um, being- I need to be more physical. I need to be in the moment more. Ah, I need to avoid being a talking head and being reference heavy. And the downside of having done this work for so long that I've achieved a certain level of confidence means that I can always make an audience laugh and that's a dangerous place to be in�

Craig: �sometimes. You need to continue to, ah, to take risks and be truthful to what's going on.

Jon: You mentioned that, ah, your comfort level varies when you're playing with different people.

Craig: Yeah. That, ah, depending on how familiar I am with the ensemble that I am playing with and always depending what I know about the form that we're going to do. With Carl and the Passions we have rehearsal the night before and we've usually focused on something in that rehearsal then we apply it to the show the next day. And we also talk a little bit before the show, 'what are our goals tonight? What do we want to do tonight?' And everyone as individuals should also have a goal for themselves for each performance. I want to emphasize either a strength of mine tonight or I want to emphasize a weakness. Or, you know, I wasn't editing well last time I was sitting on my hands so I'm gonna get out there and�

Jon: Yeah, then we're just talking about the schedule. I don't know if you want to rehash that. Um�I think mostly what we- mostly what we talked about was that, ah, everyone agrees that there should be less teams at IO, but-

Jon: Um, everyone- it- it's also very interesting, which I wanted to mention beforehand, um, was that improv is definitely a, a form where it's good to be not judgmental, to not have judgement over your players or one another. But yet a lot of things that- especially with the schedule it's almost apparent that people's judgement of, of themselves over other people comes out. Where, like, "this person isn't that great, they shouldn't be on the team." Or "this person- this team doesn't need to be there. This team is great." It seems almost against the principles of improv. It- it just- just sort of very odd.

Craig: I know. But that's where the business aspect comes in. And business and art don't mix. The import thing for people to realize is that IO is an institution and it's somebody else's institution.

Craig: So you have to play by their rules while you�re here. And it's other people's highly subjective but informed and experienced opinions that govern what's done here.

Craig: The cool thing about being a member of the improv community in Chicago to me us, meeting everybody. Of working with all these talented people and making- people are going to be your friends for life. It really is like going through high school and college again.

Craig: �hierarchy. Um, you bond with people who are [at] a certain level with you and you kind of�

Craig: �you bond strongest with those people. 'Cause you kind of cling together.

Craig: Ah, so, there's so many opportunities 'cause you don't know that the guy who's in your level 1 class might not be the guy who in a few years is doing his down HBO special and needs you for the writing staff-

Craig: -you know? And I'm not talking about approaching the whole thing like it's one big networking thing, like, "who can do what for me?" It's just like, you make friends and you take care of your friends as far as like, what you want to do. Um, so the difficult thing about IO and Second City is there's certain, like, level of success that's set up with the structure and so people are constantly measuring themselves against that structure. "If I'm not on main stage by, you know-"

Craig: "-year X, then I have failed somehow." Well, look at the UCB. All of those guys, except for Besser, were in touring company at Second City. All of them would have been on the main stage if they'd continued down that path.

Craig: They made the difficult decision to stick together as an ensemble, to move to New York where nobody does long-form improv, to try to get their own TV show, which they did, ah, and to establish a school there-

Craig: -where they all teach and it now- it's - I believe they've more students than IO and they're doing everything right, they're doing the Harold. I think that's far cooler. There was a group a few years ago um, the Factory Theater, that did a show called "Second City Didn't Want Us." They were all graduates of- they were all level 5 graduates who then had aspirations to go on and work for TourCo and they never got hired. So, it was kind of like a bitter, satirical look at the inner workings of Second City.

Craig: Now, whether or not the show was funny or not, I don't know, I didn't see it. But, to me, it's like, it just makes 'em look bitter and mean spirited, to me. It's like, "you guys have established your own theater company, you've got rave reviews for any number of shows you've done, you've created your own shows through improvisation, and, you know, you've got your own space and you're doing- you're doing your own shows." That's far cooler than being a part of Second City.

Craig: Ah, and so why should it be important to you that you get that opportunity?

Jon: Um, I don't know, it's difficult. Um, it's almost like I had to wrestle with my own, um�vanity, and also try to be humble at the same time. 'Cause, I definitely will admit that I had goals to become a better- a- one of the best improvisers in Chicago. Um, definitely could have seen myself uh, five years down the line doing something with Second City or maybe doing something with ah, the Mosaic or Armando or something like that. It's only because�when I came to Chicago and IO when I saw the Armando I was blown away at how- how great it was. And, I mean, it's a natural human thing to want to be a part of something that looks amazing.

Jon: -you know, it's like, "it looked amazing, I want to be a part of it." Um, so for myself whether or not I get back on a team is not in my hands. You have to accept that.

Jon: And if I do, great. If not don't, too bad. I'm still definitely gonna try to go through as many different teachers IO has to offer, that I can. Um�

[Note: a few days after the interview, a check of my funds revealed that a month without a job killed any chance I had in continuing my improv studies. So I ended up not being able to take Paul Grondy's class.]

Jon: um, and ah, I'm still doing Second City classes 'cause they have, also a wealth of people over there to teach me. [Note: and I had to stop taking Second City classes too] And I know eventually I'll do Annoyance. And�uh, and then other workshops that people do. Like, I was kicking myself that I didn't have the time to do- do Jack McBrayer's workshop or, um, Sue Gillan's workshop 'cause it was definitely something I needed to work on. Um�

Jon: What do I need to work on? I need to work on not going for the joke. I need to work on being truthful, uh, of not caring about the audience. Of taking the pressure off myself and just re- focusing on my teammates. On a�coming from a place of emotion. Of ah, while I'm in the scene, letting it happen, give and take, listening huge much while also- while I'm on the sides thinking of themes. Definitely need to think about ah, taking something from the opening and using it. I don't do that. I do the opening and I almost forget about the opening.

Jon: I need to take something with me. I need to take risks. I need to take- do more characters that I've never done before. I need to ah, work on inhabiting characters in my body. Sometimes after awhile I start slipping into "Jon" things-

Jon: -that I do and that takes me from [the] character. Ah�all those different things.

Craig: Well I think first of all going back to class is important and will be helpful. And I think there, like, is a mentality of like, "all right so I've gone through all the levels, now you're not putting me on a team- Ooh! You want me back in class again, all right, you just want my money again." But like, ah�and the one thing that I can definitely say about this place is it's not a money factory. That although, yes, it is a big portion of Charna's income, that there are definite philosophies that go into this work and it's important to us that students get those philosophies across and if it's not felt by the staff that they're ready for a team- that they're not ready for a team, and the only way to get on a team is [laughs a little] to go back in class, you know, it's not like, a carrot dangled in front of them, you know? We really want people to improve before they get on the stage here.

Craig: The difficult thing about being on a team and having it broken up is it feels like, "oh, I've already had the IO experience and it's over." No, you're IO experience is whatever you want to make it.

Craig: The important thing is that you, you know, you've got friends, you've got people who want to work with you, and whether it's in groups that are going to be outside of IO, which, you have other things going on, right-

Craig: -improvisationally? You know, I mean, you keep working on. And ah, you're friends will look out for you. And maybe you'll get pulled- maybe they'll lobby for you and they'll pull you back on to their team. That's what happened to Liz Allen. She was the last piece to join Frank Booth, which was the house team that lasted for like four years. She'd [been] kicked around a number of different teams and finally they said "hey, can we have Liz on the team?" And she did and once she was there everything clicked into place and the ensemble can together. Ah, I think it's good also to- recognizing things you that want to work on and emphasizing those. And now like, you've gone through the program, you've done everything once, now it's time for some more in depth analysis and more personal attention.

Craig: And you should say to Paul or to any teacher you're going to take, you know, "this is my situation, I was on a team, I got taken off, ah, I want to work on these things, can you watch these things, for me?" Maybe not the whole list you just said-

Craig: -that's everything that every improviser� [laughs] But, you know, "can you really help me with these things?"

Craig: And any teacher would be happy to take on that challenge, uh, and giving you some, ah, some really good individual attention. And I think talk to trusted people, um, teachers and coaches that you've trusted and that know your work as to what their insights are. And ah, maybe even getting an analysis from a peer, ah, of yours. Um, "hey, you were on Kilgore Trout with me�

Jon: Yeah. No, we actually did that our last uh, our last uh, rehearsal. Was kind of very much the ah, level 3- old level 3 thing, now level 2 thing, where the end of the run-

Jon: Positives and negatives and what you need to work on. And it definitely had a- much more weight since we've been with each other for over a year.

Craig: And some of those things really come as revelations when you hear them. Like, it's always overwhelmingly more positive than you could ever-

Craig: -imagine. You know, and it feels good to hear how much people enjoy your work and it feels good hear how much people enjoy your work that they get frustrated when this happens with your work.

Craig: And it- sometimes it really tells you how to take certain things about you to the next level.

Jon: There's definitely interesting- definitely going through the whole Kilgore Trout experience, slash Spongecake, was very, very cool because one of the first times in improv I was focusing equally on other people. Where any time they succeed on stage it was- it was a success for itself, or for the team. And it was just very, very cool, like almost like, I could feel what's going to be like if I ever- if I'm ever a parent. Like, "oh my gosh, they're doing so brilliantly on stage."

Jon: And I was- it was good to know that, that part of, of unselfishness still lives in, in myself.

Craig: The best thing about long-form to me�is that it's done as a team and as an ensemble. And it's really exhilarating, like, those great shows that you never forget, usually nobody from the team can leave the theater that night and you end up talking about it and you keep wanting to praise each other and, [I laugh] you know it's really amazing to have shared that with, you know, six or seven teammates and X number of people in the audience and it feels good to get the feedback from the audience after the show too, of like, "wow, that was really amazing."

Craig: You know, it's quite a buzz and that's why, you know, it's- even it was taped or it was scripted, if someone handed me the script of the greatest Harold ever, it'd be like, "oh, wh- what is this?" You know? It's all about being in the moment. Sharing that moment with the audience and the audience recognizing it as spontaneous. That this work of art was created spontaneously in front of us, it only lasted for a half-hour and now it's�ether, you know?

Jon: My last thing to talk about then I will conclude this interview. Um, as I've always thought despite what other people have said, that long-form improv could possibly work on TV. Many people say, "no, there's no possible way that, that could work." Um, my own theories being like, maybe like you tape a couple of nights of like, Armando or something else or the Trio or Quartet or something like that. And you get one that's probably good. Even if you're doing a TV series and you, like, five days in a row you do it. Probably one of those days is going to be good. And then, you air it. It's not really live but it is sort of live, when it's taped. Then you also have to have, like, probably multiple angles of, of camera or something like that. It's the- some of the technical things, but a lot of people have said that it wouldn't, it just wouldn't translate if it's taped. Would you agree with that?

Craig: Well, this has been a common, ah, debate in improv for a number of years.

Craig: I think first of all we have to analyze why is it so important that it be on TV. And I think what people who love improv think is, "we love this and this is brilliant and this is art. Why can't we put it into�mass media?" Ah, "so everyone in the country will know how cool this is and that improv isn't "Whose Line is it Anyway.""

Craig: And I kind of talked about this in my "Inside the Improvisers Studio" and described it- how it is a- it's a niche audience. This is what I think. I would love for somebody to prove me wrong and make it work on TV. I think television would need a major paradigm shift in order for, [laughs] you know, with the- with the way that it works now, as business, I just can't see somebody taking a risk. You�d need a really brave producer, um, who'd be willing to put some power in the hands of the artists. And you would need artists who're really experienced and sure with what they are doing and able to stick to their vision.

Craig: Um, yeah. I would love for somebody to prove me wrong. [I laugh] I'm highly skeptical.

Jon: Thank you so much Craig, for doing this interview. Um, hopefully that fifteen minutes wasn't too valuable. [Craig laughs] And ah, thank you all for logging on and reading this transcript.

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The Craig Cackowski Interview

interviewed by Jon Forsythe