Posted by sigma [sigmabee] on April 08, 1999 at 17:26:13 {vxsc0.TBNk/CPYT8orz2AKtQNXlTN6}:
In Reply to: We Do "The Memorial" posted by John W. Wirtanen on April 02, 1999 at 12:20:40:
So, you 'did the Memorial', with the aim of bringing closure to the JW experience'. Well, with your attitude being what it is towards the occasion of which you sought to make such a mockery, I hope you achieved your aim.
It�s quite obvious that you know JWs have the truth, but also that you have now rejected it. From your apparent willingness to now associate with practising homosexuals, it seems to me that perhaps you never really accepted it in the first place. We can all be glad that that particular issue is now sorted, and that the Congregation is kept morally clean from people who wish to live such a lifestyle (haven�t you learnt ANYthing???!!!).
The best piece of advice I was ever given about how to view a �religion� was from a Moslem friend of mine who said �Never judge a religion by the bad behaviour of its so-called adherents�. So it is regrettable you have cause to criticise what you see as a lack of concern for Congregation members who are unwell, in your case, your invalid sister. In cases where I have observed this cause for criticism, the reasons for it were always, either the elders did not know the circumstances, or they had been told by the person concerned, or an opposed member of their family, to �stay away�. If it was due to an error, then corrective measures were taken to ensure suitable pastoral care was arranged in the future.
The remainder of your diatribe, was, quite frankly, the absurd rantings of a rather spoilt little child:
1. You assert that JWs usually predict that the lives of people who leave the Congregation unravel. You offer no evidence for this totally unfounded allegation. In fact, it is rubbish!
2. Who said that an ex-JW should enter a Kingdom Hall with head bowed sheepishly in an �assumed role�? You did, but JWs do not. You were not ignored, because you entered as �wolves in sheeps� clothing�, and weren�t recognised by the people who spoke to you. What does that prove? Nothing, apart from the fact that the kindness you say is not being shown to your sister, is indeed in that Congregation you attended. If you reckon it proves they thought you were �fresh meat for a Bible study�, forget it - they�d have soon guessed from your attitude that you are in fact, �dead meat�.
3. You assert that �tired styles that defined nondescript� is �typical JW fare�, and �dressing drably and old before their time� is a �JW mold� for young people. Dress sense is a matter for personal opinion, I guess, but if JWs all turned up at their meetings looking like Liberace or Elton John, you�d still have cause to criticise, wouldn�t you. I agree that styles of Western dress need a lot of improvement, but you criticise some young people for trying to do this on a personal level, and IN YOUR OPINION, not succeeding. But at least you found the d�cor of the place something not to be criticised.
4. You say you found the Memorial consisted of �the same old, tired talk, ritualistic prayer and passing of emblems�, but were �surprised� at no reference to 1914. The fact that you call the description of what Jesus did for you �the same old, tired talk� just proves you no longer appreciate what he did. That�s up to you, of course, but it�s no wonder you found the prayers �unremarkable�! It�s just as well JWs do have the gall to criticize the Roman Catholic church for its rituals, because those rituals are meaningless and are based on doctrines that have absolutely no basis in Scripture. The Memorial ritual is the only one instituted by Jesus himself, and he commanded his followers to perform it, which JWs do each year. And 1914 has little to do with his death.
5. Your �other key point� is that you now �actually recognise� the criticism of the
(JW) faith for �its only quoting of single scriptures, in a �scatter-gun� fashion, without really getting into the context�. Of course
verses are quoted in public talks only in part, for reasons of brevity. �Bouncing around�, as you call it, from Hebrew to Greek Scriptures is necessary to explain the scriptural evidence for what is being said. But you know that already, don�t
you.
6. As to using �props�, that�s a new one! I�ve not seen that done in a Memorial Talk before, but the innovation shown here goes against your criticism of it being the �same old, tired, talk�. Oh, well, I guess there�s no pleasing some people. I�m sure glad you weren�t �a prior TM Overseer� in my Congregation!
7 Your comment about �very few, truly smiling, happy looking expressions� on those sitting in attendance is what is sad, not the fact that the occasion was being treated with the dignity it deserved. JWs do not �have to �buy into� everything without question�. If they don�t like the answers to their questions, they are free to leave, as you well know, because you have done so. And who says �they can�t openly read the well-documented facts about the Organization�s past and present�? We�re all at liberty to do so if we wish, and many, like myself, have done so. Many others, however, choose not to. Either way, it doesn�t alter the fact that JWs are the only religious group that has the truth, about 1914 as well as other issues. Maybe not the whole truth, as yet, but the fundamentals do not change.
8 Your covert motive in posting your �experience� on the Internet for all to see, which is obviously to put people off being what you once were, is guaranteed in the scriptures to get you into serious problems. Those in your group who partook unworthily of the emblems should read the Bible�s warning on this point (yes, I know you know the scripture I�m referring to).
9 It�s a pity that, for all the members in your group who are �very knowledgeable about metaphysics� and about �Charles Taze Russell�s involvement with pyramidology�, and about �cults and their tactics�, not one of them seems to know anything about the absolute zero relevance of all of that stuff to the Bible�s teachings, and the beliefs of JWs!
10 So, at dinner afterwards you �laughed, joked, and recounted your experiences�, and now you�ve put them on the Internet. I don�t know what the price that you must pay for turning away from the true religion will be, but it will probably be more than you feel you can afford. For the people who want to outlive you, far better it is to be in �bondage to thought/belief patterns� that are put in the Bible by our Creator, than to the rather pathetic attempts by you and others at twisting and distorting the truth with cheap jibes and outright lies
I�m eagerly awaiting your response. On the Internet for all to see, of course.
Posted by John W. Wirtanen [JohnWWirtanen] on April 02, 1999 at 12:20:40 {ppHCdFLRUMmCpMHrVMyIEn.OK4kK/E}:
A group of us went to the Memorial at a local San Francisco area congregation. There were eight of us, some who had walked away, some who had disassociated, and some who had been disfellowshipped; half of us gay, half of us straight. We had gone for a variety of reasons. But, primarily, it was a way of bringing closure to the JW experience.
I had gone to the Memorial the year before for the first time since disassociating four years prior. I had gone to the congregation that I disassociated from to primarily show that, contrary to the usual JW predictions, my life had not unraveled AND I was actually a much happier person. Another member of our group had also gone last year for the first time in close to two decades. This time, both of us were there for moral support to the other six who joined us.
We entered, not with heads bowed sheepishly in the JW assumed role that an ex-JW should portray. No, we entered smiling, heads-up, in control, and sat in various places within the Kingdom Hall. I believe that due to our countenance we were not perceived as ex-JWs. As a result, no one ignored us. After all �fresh meat� for a prospective bible study.
The best thing that I can say about the experience for me, aesthetically/emotionally speaking, was the d�cor of the place. It was a lovely combination of soft greys, blues, driftwood stained roof beams, and, for a change, comfortable chairs. The outfits worn were the typical JW fare: Men and women in tired styles that defined nondescript, some youth trying to fit within the JW mold by dressing drably and old before their time, some youth doing what they could to rebel by either being overdressed or appearing as tarts. There was one very stylish, older �sister�. She could have gone to any social function and been perfectly in place. Not underdressed, not overdressed. Brava!
After the meeting started, I was approached by an attendant who got me a seat nearby my friend who was in a wheelchair. The �brother� sitting next to me kindly offered and I accepted to read along with him the cited verses and the songs. As the meeting progressed, I was able to look at it even more objectively than the prior year that I had gone. Then, I had gone for myself (and to obtain a subscription for my invalid JW sister whom no one in the congregation ever visits). This time, I came to truly observe. Findings: The same old, tired talk. (Except, surprise, no reference to 1914.) The same old, tired ritualistic prayer and passing of emblems. I thought, the JWs really have some gall to criticize the Roman Catholic church for its rituals. This was ritual, pure and simple, 100%. The prayers were unremarkable.
The other key point that I noticed was the use of scripture. When I was a Dub, I heard others criticize the faith for its only quoting of single scriptures, in a �scatter-gun� fashion, without really getting into the context. This time I was able to actually recognize this. Verses quoted only in part (i.e., �let�s turn to the �b� part of the verse�), singly, or at most, about three verses consecutively, bouncing around from Hebrew to Greek Scriptures.
To the speaker�s credit, he used excellent props of life-size stakes like those that could have been used in the impalement. It brought back memories from the films �Ben-Hur� and �The Last Temptation of Christ�. I thought as a prior TM Overseer, I�ll mark him �Good� on illustrations. When he spoke about love, I thought �how hypocritical�. I thought of my sister and how no love is shown to her. And of so many others I have come to know that have had similar experiences. Hmm, I think I�ll have to have him work next time on the point dealing with useful information, clearly presented.
I looked at those sitting in attendance. Very few, truly smiling, happy looking expressions (except for us!). I thought about how sad that they have to �buy into� everything without question, how they can�t openly read the well-documented facts about the Organization�s past and present. Some in our group partook of the emblems, others did not.
Afterwards many of us were able to get into interesting discussions with �The Friends�. The speaker�s last name was Russell. One in our group who�s very knowledgeable about metaphysics and Charles Taze Russell�s involvement with pyramidology got into an interesting discussion with the speaker, leading in with the similarity of the speaker�s and the JW founder�s last names. Another from our group, very knowledgeable in cults and their tactics, was able to field a number of questions to others, getting them to think critically about the teachings. Just about all had some interesting tid-bit.
At dinner afterwards we laughed, joked, and recounted our experiences. For me, it had brought back pleasant memories of how nice the association with others in my old congregation had been. But, not worth the price that one must pay: Bondage to thought/belief patterns, many of which run counter-intuitively to human nature, love, and compassion. But, I always will remember the delightful d�cor of the place. Must have been done by a closeted gay �brother�.