Posted by Gary [GLamotta] on April 02, 1999 at 19:22:38 {ppHCdFLRUMMSSTtTA17sboLUiPtahc}:
In Reply to: *********Joseph, Judgment Day-Moved UP posted by Joseph Malik on April 02, 1999 at 07:45:09:
Hi Joseph,
I don't know why you keep referring to my beliefs as that of the Watchtower when they are not. I don't think the WTS believes Jesus will come in the flesh, nor that Judgment Day is after the millennium.
They, in fact,
believe like you do. That the account of Judgment Day is out of chronological order and needs to be reinserted into the millennium. They also believe the second resurrection will be during the millennium.
So you have more beliefs like
the WTS than I do on this particular topic. My beliefs are my own.
Actually, I didn't think you'd let me slip past that "sheep and goats" separation, coming versus Judgment Day. So here goes the scriptures:
There will be a dividing
work done when Christ first arrives. There will be a separation, within Jehovah's organization of "wheat and weeds" and "sheep and goats" and "good fish and bad fish."
This involves, in particular, the separation by angels of the
anointed ones who are gathered at the time Christ first arrives.
But this is not the only separation work that is done. During Judgment Day, he again does a separation work which is characterized just like the first, as a separation liking to the separation of sheep and goats. But they are separate events.
Now, Matthew 25 is the only text I want to apply to Judgment Day. All the others that clearly indicate the angels will do the separation work can default to the time of the separation work immediately after the kingdom is set up. There may be possible exceptions.
But Matthew 25:31 says: "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate one from another just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left."
This relates to Revelation 20:11 and Judgment Day which says "And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it." This is the time when Jesus is seated on his glorious throne as mentioned in Matthew 25 above. "12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scrool of life. And the dead were judged out of those things writen in the scrolls according to their deeds.. And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire."
Thus I associate Matthew 25 with the time when Jesus sits down on this throne that is placed just before Judgment Day and at that time he does judge all the nations and separates them like sheep and goats. And it is at this time, as Matthew 25 says that the "goats" are assigned to the "everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." So this is the final curtain. It can be applied specifically to Judgement Day.
Then we add a little bit of a context to the significance of Judgment Day with Daniel 12:2 which speaks of what Jesus will do when he comes into his kingdom, and that is: "And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches and to indefinitely lasting abhorrence."
Now this is an interesting scripture. It clearly shows that some will be resurrected just to have death again, that is death assigned to Gehenna which is the reference to "indefinitely lasting aborhorrence" in the lake of fire. This is what Jesus does on Judgment Day.
Thus the major focussed activities that Jesus will do when he comes is rule for 1,000 years and then judge all mankind during Judgment Day and the second resurrection.
Of note, this separation of sheep and goats, giving life eternal or everlasting death, is not the activity of the angels when Jesus first comes which are focussed on gathering the "anointed ones" who are to become the Bride of Christ.
Selecting out and sealing the anointed ones is done before the Millennium and thus before Judgment Day and is a special "gathering" of a special group, not the judging of all mankind. Thus specifically, Matthew 25 is not talking about the gathering of the anointed as sheep and the condemnation to Gehenna of everybody else. So we know these are two different campaigns.
Again, there is a specific time when a glorious thone will be placed and Jesus will sit on that throne with the nations before him and there will be the final judgment of all of mankind. This has to occur in conjunction with the second resurrection and Judgment Day. This fits what is represented at Matthew 25. And even though there is a reference to when Jesus comes in his glory, which suggests this would happen immediately, it also states Jesus would sit on his glorious thone and judge the nations. The only technical detail we need to worry about, therefore, is whether or not this happens AFTER his coming or not. It doesn't specify how long after his coming this will take place.
If you want to generalize, as well, this judging could refer to and include some of the judgment during the millennium of those who survive Armageddon. After all, the scriptures do say that the 144,000 will be judges at this time.
So I don't necessarily wholly exclude that part of this judging of the nations could generally refer to some judging done during the millennium. I say that because it seems that those who initially rebel with Satan will be destroyed at that time. I don't see them coming back immediately afterwards to be re-judged. But I'm not sure about this or how it works. It is possible that even those could have another trial.
But the specific aspects of this particular separation mentioned in Matthew does seem to limit
it to Judgment Day because those who get to be on his right hand are granted everlasting life at that time. This could not
take place in its full completion until after Satan has been destroyed and after Judgment Day proper begins after he is destroyed.
Therefore, all considered, my position has to be that this is a reference, specifically to when Jesus sits down on his throne for the specific purpose of judging the nations and this is what Matthew is describing. It is the time when life everlasting will be granted and that is exclusive to Judgment Day.
On the other hand, this does not describe when Jesus first comes into his kingdom and the angels go forth to gather the anointed ones and seal the anointed ones into the 144,000. That is not specifically a division of the "sheep from the goats" with all those not chosen as sheep being thrown into Gehenna, nor is it true that all those not selected as anointed ones will be destroyed as there are many who are considered to be "righteous" who will not be part of the Bride class.
So really, Matthew 25 does not fit the first selection of the anointed ones but perfectly fits Judgment Day.
There are your scriptures, Joseph.
And don't forget, it is you and the WTS who claim that the order of events in Revelation 20 are out of order and need to be revised and it is you and the WTS who think the second resurrection occurs DURING the Millennium, not me. So I'm not the only one who has been influenced by the WTS, eh?
Thanks for going over this. I do need to refine my scriptural applications for these things.
Cheers,
Gary