Posted by Gary [GLamotta] on April 02, 1999 at 17:58:52 {ppHCdFLRUMMSSTtTA17sboLUiPtahc}:
In Reply to: *What is Jan....Was NOAH? posted by Ummm, Problem-Jason on April 02, 1999 at 09:48:04:
Hi Jason,
I respect your position, this is new. I did suggest reading all of 1 Corinthins though.
Consider this aspect, 1 Cor. 14:42-44
"So also is the resurrection of the dead.
Note we are talking about the ressurrection of the dead.
It is SOWN in corurption, it is rasied up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. It is SOWN IN A PHYSICAL BODY, it is raised up in s piritual body."
Now we ask ourselves what is bein SOWN? What is being sown is the "seed". And what is the seed?
It's what has to be resurrected.
1 Cor. 15:37 says: "..and as far as what you sow, you sow,not the BODY that will develop, but a bare grain."
So the way I'm understanding it is that first a person dies. Then they are like a "seed" and that seed, in the first resurrection is first "sown" in a physical body. Then after that it becomes the spiritual body that the 144,000 will have after the millennium and everything on the earth is over.
So the Bible says, "it is sown in a physical body" and that that physical body is considered to be one of "dishonor", one of "corruption".
Those two terms, "dishonor" and "corruption" are indications of imperfection.
So how is the first resurrection to work? At some point before the millennium do all those who died suddenly appear from the memorial tombs in new bodies? Possibly. But if so, those bodies are bodies of "dishonor" not just "corruption." Thus they would have to be resurrected as imperfect humans again.
At the same time, it could be that they would be "born again."
Remember what the Bible says further about the resurrection of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the others. Matthew 8:11 says: "But I tell you that many from eastern pats and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens,..."
Thus I take this scripture to mean they will be part of the 144,000. That means since the first resurrection is the only resurrection before the millennium, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob must be part of the first resurrection.
This helps us to understand further what is said to Daniel at 12:13: "And as for you yourself, go towrad the end; and you will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days."
Thus Daniel, too, during the last day, would be resurrected as part of the bride class.
Since, therefore, we know certain ancient faithful ones would find a way into the kingdom, it helps us understand why Hebrews mentions those who murmured in the wilderness "would not enter into my rest" that is would not be part of the millennium "Sabbath" of Jesus'rule. It simply meant that none would be selected from this group as part of that "greater resurrection" which Moses was seeking. But it also confirms that it was possible for the ancients to get into the kingdom.
Now we come to exactly HOW.
The way they would get into the kingdom, since they couldn't just die and get straight into the kingdom before the Messiah himself died, meant they rules had to be bent a bit and it was worked out that they would have to be "born again", that is, appear in the flesh again first, before becoming spirit. This second appearance in the flesh would qualify them to enter into the New Covenant. But faithful Christians were also told they must be "born again" as well.
As John 3:5 says: "Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from WATER and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of god."
The "water" reference, of course, suggests natural birth perhaps.
But here is the KEY scripture (I know I've only loosely graduated here). Ps 45:16 gives us insight into how this "born again" would pan out in reality:
"In place of your forefathers there will come to be your SONS, Whom you will appoint as princes in the earth."
Of course, this proves that some of the faithful men of old would come back and be princes (or rulers) in the earth, which matches their being king-priests with Jesus during the millennium.
But it also says the "fathers would become sons".
What does that mean, the "fathers would become sons." What it means, simply is that if they were going to be "born
again" in some way in the modern era as humans, then in that sense, in general, the fathers would be younger than their own sons, and even descendants of their own sons.
So the second birth, makes them SONS.
NOW FOR THE
TECHNICALITIES:
How do you have a person be reborn again? Well, I suppose you could inseminate about 72,000 women with the seeds of these dead ones and they could be born that way, maybe.
But that seems quite precarious and complex.
Under this method, these "seeds" are given bodies of faithful ones to share. That is, they are "sown" into people already alive, already chosen of the anointed and thus they are resurrected in that way.
The person in whom they are resurrected in, thus ends up with the memory of two lives.
You said it was "possession." Well for lack of another word, other than "reincarnation" which also isn't a good word, that seems precisely what it is.
But it is easy to understand when you consider what happened to Jesus Christ himself if he was to become the "prodigal son." He also, in order to take on a physical body, ends up possessing the body of one of his unfaithful-turned-faithful chosen ones. But it isn't "possession" in the critical sense of the word, sense they don't take over the body FROM that individual, they just share it.
The SUBJECTIVE effect of this sharing or having been sown with the spririt of one of an ancient faithful one who had died is as if you simply were told you were someone else in another life.
If I told you or you found out that you were Abraham in a previous life, then you'd just be aware you were that person before, and maybe you would share that memory. But it would just be memory of things you did in the past. No different than thinking back on your childhood and remembering WHO you were then and what you did then. It doesn't affect who you are now. But you remember it.
THE OBSERVED REALITY:
Now I will admit at this time, even 1 Corinthians sounds vague on this point. It talks about "sowing seeds" in bodies. But that is flexible enough to mean persons already alive.
In my personal, though, being in the thick things, I had already seen and been aware of some of the resurrected ones who had modern identities.
So this is a new refinement of this concept of exactly how the resurrection works. I wasn't sure how it worked. I couldn't figure out how these were born again exactly. You know, for instance we know in the case of Jesus, Mary, a virgin, was impregnated with holy spirit and the Messiah was born. Jesus' heavenly life force in some sense being transferred to Mary.
So I didn't know how these life forces were really being transferred to new people in our age. But now I understand, they are just sown or planted into bodies of the modern 144,000.
And it is easy for me to understand how this "body sharing" works, because himself was not imperfect, so how could be be born as the imperfect "prodigal son"? It works out that he was not, he just ended up "possessing" or sharing that persons identity and (all importantly and conveniently) their body.
So, it's NEW, It's DIFFERENT, It's UNIQUE...but it's SCRIPTURAL.
Also this works out something else I wondered about. You know Satan would kill some of the anointed during the last days as part of their test as well as some would be imprisoned, etc. And I often wondered how they would then be resurrected again.
Well now I'm thinking that even ones who recently die, will be resurrected into the bodies of others who are chosen.
But this works out a wonderful purpose. That is because insteadof just 144,000 anointed individuals, you get to have "two loaves" of a total of 188,000. But, 144,000 have to die first.
Thus if the total number of all those
from the OT and all those who died faithful during the 1st century and thereafter who were chosen, didn't amount to 144,000, then there would be a few anointed ones with only one identity.
So it makes since, in order to get the maximum number, if that is God's choice, if say, it was around 4,000 short or even or 10,000 short, to have that many modern ones die so that that many others could be chosen and they would thus double-up on those bodies.
Beyond that, perhaps only a sufficient number of double-placements are implied based upon the actual number of those who prove faithful and the number is not exactly 188,000 but something close to it. It seems some are not shared at the moment.
But that's all I have to offer. And this is just "theoretical" discussion for those who are curious, but for those new ones who are being sealed, they may need to know and understand this. Or ultimately, as is usually the case, they just need to know that I understand this.
So ultimately this might not be aimed at you, so you don't have to take any of this seriously; other than, it's an opportunity to reexamine the scriptures and reexamine our beliefs about the details of the first resurrection and see what the Bible actually says about it.
The REALITY is, though that it seems these dead ones are actually "sown" into the body of modern ones for the duration of the millennium and Judgment Day and then they get their own spiritual bodies. That's the REALITY observed.
Scripturally, the vague description doesn't contradict this as far as I can see. The Bible does say these seeds are "sown into a physical body" and that can be interpreted many ways, INCLUDING a literal, already existing physical body.
And since this is happening to Jesus, a perfect being, taking on an imperfect identity, there is consistency in this entire process of the first resurrection for everyone.
It's interesting and seems to serve Jehovah's explicit purpose, so be it.
Thanks for asking. And by no means do I have all the answers. This is new to me too and I'm sure there will be revisions and I'm sorry I'm not explaining it very well. But this is all very complex.
Take care. I'll be happy to answer any more questions if you like.
Cheers,
Gary