Posted by Drake, Jr. on March 21, 1999 at 12:12:54 {MWI..8PVPLcMY}:
In Reply to: **THE MANNER OF HIS COMING... posted by WW on March 21, 1999 at 08:04:58:
Dear WW,
You're observations are brilliant and pertinent.
>>We can also see that his 'presence' occurs after the Tribulation and not before. >>>
This is something I don't agree with. I'd like for you to think about this again.
We have been looking at "presence" versus "coming". I would like to suggest that we look more closely at the PHASES in which the Kingdom occurs.
Remember, it is set up in heaven first, Satan is kicked down to the earth, but Armageddon does not happen immediately.
And there are certain things that happen during this "phase" of the "presence-coming", etc. All things don't come to a completion at once.
But keeping that in mind, the signs of his PRESENCE (parousia) included those things that would lead up to his COMING or the final setting up of the kingdom in heaven.
I consider these events, WWI, the earthquakes, the great tribulation, etc. as leading up to the coming and thus the "accompanying" events to preceding his coming, which can be part of his "presence" or parousia.
Even in the illustration at Matthew 20 about the vineyard and other illustrations, remember Jesus first comes and invests with his slaves to do business, then he leaves and goes away to "obtain kingly power" and then returns to inspect once he becomes king. Well all that working period and growth period is the same time during which all these signs of his "presence" are taking place, which are still before this COMING.
And yes, very important, the "great tribulation" (which was the Holocaust) must occur before his actual coming, but is part of the signs of his "presence."
So in this sense, these signs are "along side" or present alongside, accompanying what would occur just before his coming, as each critical event is phased in. The entire advent takes a period of one generation and beyond to be accomplished.
So we must not confuse the general accompanying events or "parousia" with the specific "coming in the clouds" which are specifically related to when Christ would take up kingdom power. At that time, however, is when he begins to gather that and inspect that which he began earlier. And at that time, with Satan ousted from Heaven, he brings his reward to them to replace the anointed in the heavens.
Thus there really is no true conflict between "parousia" and his "coming" nor the recognition that the whole event is one that occurs in phases, partly with Jesus in the Heavens for a while, until he finally manifests himself upon the earth, in the flesh.
We simply must pay close attention to these details and as we understand more, we can see how everything is perfectly in harmony.
But finally, of note, again, the Holocaust, which is the great tribulation prophesied by Daniel, does occur and end a least 45 years before the Messiah is to be installed in kingdom power, and still must not exceed a generation of 80 years from the beginning of that last generation, which we can reasonably start in 1914 if you wish.
Those chronological parameters are easily and specifically met by the 1992 date which fulfills the "1335 days" after the end of the symbolic and literal trampling of Judea and Jerusalem, when the Jews finally had one place on this earth to call their own, one place were the local residents wouldn't conveniently build gas chambers and ovens to liquidate them.
With that in mind, remember Luke associates the "end of the gentile times" directly with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE and that is directly related to natural Israel. The greater tribluation prophesied by Daniel also is about "that nation" and this event that shocked the world was to be focussed on the Jews. All of this is totally consistent with the Holocaust.
Once we get over our X-ian-centrism and realize that some of the old covenants with the Jews still have some fulfillment left, even in our modern day, we can see clearly how the natural Jews have fulfilled some of these critical prophecies for our times and help us to pinpoint even the exact year that we are to expect(were to expect) the Mesiah.
Drake, Jr.