Posted by J.H. on March 15, 1999 at 18:59:50 {MWKQmDRkic4cM}:
In Reply to: *Frequently Avoided Quandaries posted by ToddFoxx on March 15, 1999 at 17:36:51:
ToddFoxx,
: Personally, I don't know who you people have talked to regarding beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses.
I grew up a JW, 3rd generation in fact. I have extensively studied WT history and history of religion generally. I am now working on a master thesis about the works of Joseph Rutherford, a name that should be familiar to you.
I think you will find that I know a bit about your religion.
: But, you certainly have not talked to me.
That I assume to be correct.
: I don't debate about things. It's a waste of time to do so.
I see. Well, nice to have known you then :-)
My main point was exactly that JW apologists run away when you ask them hard questions. They refuse to put up a rational defense for their beliefs.
: I won't take blood because I don't want to. I'm grown and can do what I want whenever I want.
If you want to remain in good standing, and talk to your JW family and friends again, you cannot choose differently. That is the problem. And of course, if the WTS had not told you that you should not take blood, this would not be an issue with you.
: As far as disfellowshipping goes, Jehovah's Witnesses aren't the only religion to do this.
And since when did agreement from other religions count for JWs?
: Believe you me you don't know half of the long, arduous process of disfellowshipping someone.
I know not half, but the whole story, for reasons that should be extremely obvious to you if you give it a bit of thought.
: I know what I'm talking about because my brother is disfellowshipped.
And you refuse to talk to him?
: I believe in creation because I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that I did not come from some big old ugly ape or ape-man. I am far more sophisticated and intelligent than some foul smelling animal that uses the toilet in the outdoors.
This will surely shock you, but human or ape, your ancestors did use the outdoor for toilet until quite recently. Even a palace built in Europe in 1600 would not have toilets. They used the fireplace.
Otherwise I must say I am not impressed with your arguments. If there is one thing science has taught us, it is that intuition is a very bad basis for conclusions. After all, it is counter-intuitive that the Earth is round. It is very counter-intuitive that the Earth circles around the Sun. Do you deny these facts as well?
Anyway, you missed my point. The WTS has used a number of grossly dishonest arguments, and twisted statements from scientists to say the opposite of what they originally said. This is misquotation. It is dishonest. Whatever may be true or false about WTS creationism, it is a fact that the Creation book explcitly lies a large number of times. Is this a Christian thing to do, you think? See here for evidence.
: As far as chronology, I would love for you to try to do any better and be accurate 100% of the time.
I can do that anytime. Look here.
Human error is one thing. Doing errors and claiming that God talks through you is something else again. When a statement is in error, that should prove God was not behind that statement. This means that the one claiming that the statement originated with God was dishonest. When this happens not one or two times, but countless times over many decades, it's hard to find any excuses.
If it was human reasoning in the first place, how could they disfellowship those who disagreed with it?
: As far as the Last Days, you don't have to be a Jehovah's Witness to know we are in the Last Days.
Of course not. Christians have always, for 2000 years, "known" they were living in the last days. They still do, and I fear they will still "know" this in another 2000 years. Learning from past mistakes is important to science. In religion, it's more important to 1) cover them up; and 2) repeat them.
: Even Satan knows we are in the Last Days.
Now that is a credible witness.
: Various Bible doctrines. Oh, how you slay me with your singular wit. At least what we believe is easy to understand instead of that confusing and non-uniform trinity doctrine. Ask someone about the trinity and you'll get so many answers that are different from each other it's laughable.
Like what happens if I ask a JW to explain the ransom doctrine? Or ask them to explain why Jesus appointed the WTS leadership as "the faithful and discreet slave" in the year 1919?
Two wrongs don't make one right.
Besides, that a doctrine is difficult to understand, or even counter-intuitive, does not mean it is necessarily false. You'd have a hard time find anyone who can explain the general theory of relativity. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the theory.
: Anyone who reads the Bible knows that only Jehovah not even Jesus knows the Final Day and Hour.
It would avoid a few problems if people like Nelson Barbour, Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Rutherford or Frederic Franz realized this some time ago.
If anything, the JW religion has made a total mockery of those words by constantly claiming to know when the end will come. They still do, yet reduced to "soon", "very soon", and "very, very soon, honest!".
: I am not embarrassed about my religion at all.
I suspect that you may not know very much about it.
: One thing you seem to continue to keep forgetting is that these men are not perfect and make mistakes.
If I should forget it, they will surely remind me.
: But, unlike most religions we don't advocate killing in war,
Since when does "most religions" advocate killing in war?
It's true that JWs do not kill in wars. They wait for their god to come and kill 99.9% of the world's population for them. A cosmic hit man is better than getting your own hands dirty. I trust that a large number of Christians would take exception to your violent view of God.
: voting in politics for solutions that are like bandages to a cancerous limb,
Life has become enormously much better for people on this planet during the past few centuries, and particularly so in democratic countries. What do you do to improve life for your fellow men? Give them Watchtowers?
: condone immorality
By definition, nobody condones immorality. Some may have different opinions than you about what is moral. If you were a Jew or a Muslem, eating pork would be a very immoral thing.
Beyond what is obviously doing real harm to people, it is not so clear-cut to know what is immoral as you seem to think. Samson, for example, had frequent sex with prostitutes. Only after one of them cut his hair did God object. What is the moral of that?
: which has lead to so many problems between people that now we have television shows like "Jerry Springer".
I hardly ever watch TV. If you don't like it, don't watch it.
: That's just the tip of the iceberg.
Which is the words I would use to describe my posting about JW problems.
: If Jehovah's Witnesses don't have the true religion than who does?
Sorry, there is a semantical error in that sentence. The word "true" cannot qualify the noun "religion". It will be like saying a soup tasted purple.
: Do make sure it measures up to the Bible and God's standards and not some man's.
I think we only
need to look at how well it compares to man's standards. If the religion's doctrines fall far short of man's standards for rightousness and honesty, it will be futile even to ask for it to measure up to God's,w ouldn't you say?