If I owned it before I got my C&R
do I gotta log it when I get my C&R?

One of the questions that continually plagues new C&R collector/licencees is whether or not firearms owned prior to licensure must be logged into the collector's Log book that is required once the C&R license has been issued. The answer appears to be NO!

If I understand correctly, a lawsuit filed by the NRA shortly after the institution of the C&R license struck down any requirement that prior-owned firearms be logged into the ''bound book'' record as an acquisition.

If, however, a prior-owned firearm is sold after the collector has been licensed, the firearm MUST be logged out in the dispositions.

Yes, this creates an extremely suspicious-looking disposition with no matching acquisition.

While a portion of a letter from BATF noted below indicates that these prior-owned firearms do not have be logged out as dispositions either, I have ben told of at least two other responses from the agency indicating that the pre-owned firearm must be logged out even though it was never logged in.

The logical answer, to me, seems to be that logging the disposition with a note in the acquisitions column of ''owned prior to licensure'' or words to that effect would go a long way toward (a) jarring one's own memory if the disposition were ever questioned and (b) showing an intent to follow the spirit of the law if faced with a legitimate BATF audit of the ''bound book.''

In the final analysis, we all should also know that CYA means something besides Catholic Youth Association, so

CYA!

The following discussion of this issue (with the quotation from a BATF letter) occurred on Tuco's Collectors' Firearms Forum in late July of 1998.


I own a firearm that I have owned since before getting my C&R License. If I sell it now, I know I need to log the sale into my bound book. My question is when I log it in do I have to include the information as to when I received it and from whom or do I only have to log who I sold it to? I don't remember all the details about when I received it.
-Darwin


From what I have heard on this Forum, I believe you do Not have to record any firearm obtained prior to your C&R. From now on we can call it 'Darwin's Theory of C & R.'
-Wayne


Wayne is correct ONLY if you mean a non-C&R gun.If it is a C&R gun the regs state clearly that you must record it when you dispose of it. I have a letter from BATF which includes that point. The ATF reference is ATF P 5300.4 (10-95), ''the yellow book'', page 106, item (E8) in the bottom right corner of that page.See also (G2) on page 108 of the yellow book. As for what you should record, I'd say do the best you can. An honest best effort should keep you out of Levenworth. Or at least it should get you better accommodations! [ smile ]
Ahab


I'm hoping for the penthouse suite. {grin}
-Darwin


For a C&R eligible firearm owned prior to acquisition of license, it is not necessary to log the acquisition upon receipt of license. IF you sell or otherwise dispose of this firearm, you MUST log it OUT in the dispositions column. YES, THIS WILL LEAVE YOU A DISPOSITION WHICH APPEARS NEVER TO HAVE BEEN ACQUIRED. In acquisition, I would simply note ''Owned prior to licensure''. Alternative is Ahab's 'best guess' theory, but legally, I believe, all you are required to tell them is that you owned it prior to receiving your license.
-KirbyThe(not an attorney)OG


kirbyTheOG, I like your suggestion better. The less the better - but still in compliance since ATF is moote on that bit of third order trivia. You go first Darwin! BTW Darwin, I hope you find accomodations with another ''m'' in them! [ smile ]
-Ahab


I've been logging all my C&R guns nomatter that I fill out a yellow form sometimes. Non C&R guns do not get logged. I look forward to this vexing question.
I think there must be something seriously wrong here that honest citizens are burdened with uncomprehensible laws that even the most intelligent of us have a hard time understanding.
Mike



My thanks too, Ahab. I record every post-C&R firearm purchase as I don't want Nanny to get cross with me, and like you I would appreciate her being clearer on the subject.
Rabbit


To All
I was told recently by my local BATF Agent that only firearms purchased with your C+R FFL need be posted in your bound book. I also mentioned that I keep every gun I own in mine. His reply was that it was OK as far as he was concerned. I now keep two sets of books. One for the G-Men with only C+R FFL purchases and one book for ALL my firearms, C+R included for my own personal records.
Jim R.


For your info here are some quotes from a prior (November 1996) BATF letter from Charles Bartlett, Acting Chief, Firearms and Explosives Operations Branch, responding to similar questions:

'Current regulations do not require licensed collectors to record in their bound books firearms acquired prior to obtaining their license. Therefore, subsequent sales of the previously acquired firearms would reuire no entry in your bound book records.
If after obtaining a license a firearm is aquired for your personal collection, it must be entered into your bound book whether or not you use your collectors license to purchase the weapon. See 27 CFR 178.125(f). Any subsequent sale would have to be entered in your bound book records.'

I have been following this policy since obtaining my license.

I hope this helps clarify the issue. From reading the other responses there are obviously a wide range of interpretations and practices.
Cass


Shortly after the above discussion took place, Ahab followed through with the following letter to BATF, garnering the MOST RECENT response which indicates disposition must be logged despite a lack of balance in the acquisition column:
I have prepared the following letter to BATF concerning the ''Bound Book'' question which has come up. The letter will be mailed on Monday, July 20, 1998
(quote)
Department of the Treasury
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Chief , Firearms Branch
Mr. Lewis P. Raden
Washington, D. C. 20226

Dear Mr. Raden:

As an 03FFL holder, is there any BATF regulation, or requirement implied therein, to fully record in my bound book any curio or relic gun which I purchase by using only ATF F 4473 at a gun shop or gun show within (my home state) before or after I received my license and was not in any way acquired by use of my Curio or Relics Federal Firearm License?

The above question assumes the gun in question is not yet sold while I have my license. I understand the disposition part and the requirement to record the C&R gun in question into my bound book at the time of disposition.

It is the initial recording part in which I am concerned and seek clarification from BATF. Several collectors take the position, as I do, that if ATF F 4473 is used and the Curios or Relics Federal Firearms License is not used in the purchase then there is no requirement to record the gun into my bound book until the time that I dispose of it.

Your attention to this matter will be appreciated.


Sincerely,
(unquote)

As soon as I receive a reply, I will post here on Tuco's Forum the full text, or the essence thereof, from BATF's letter.
Ahab


Department of the Treasury
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
F: PD: FB: FT: nvc
AUG 10 1998

(inside address redacted)

Dear Mr. (redacted):

This is in response to your letter dated July 20, 1998, to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. In your letter, you have inquired whether it is necessary to record the transfer of a curio or relic firearm in your acquisition and disposition records.

Please be advised that, in accordance with 27 CFR [S] 178.125 (g), a licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. Therefore, regardless of whether the curio or relic firearm was obtained using your collector's license, the acquisition must be entered into your records upon receipt. Accordingly, if you, as a licensed collector, dispose of a curio or relic firearm, the disposition also must be entered into your record book regardless of when it was obtained.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your request. Should you require additional information or have any questions, please contact us.

Sincerely yours,
(initialed) KRD
for Christopher M. Cuyler
Chief, Firearms Programs Division

It is to be noted that my letter to BATF, dated July 20, 1998, did not inquire about the *transfer* of a C&R firearm. My question was:
''As an 03FFL holder, is there any BATF regulation, or requirement implied therein, to fully record in my bound book any curio or relic gun which I purchase by using only ATF F 4473 at a gun shop or gun show within the state of Alabama before or after I received my license and was not in any way acquired by use of my Curio or Relics Federal Firearm License?'' The bottom line is that BATF says, in effect, that I must enter into my record book an *intrastate* acquisition of a C&R firearm even though the firearm was acquired without use of my 03FFL.


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