CertainVerdict : hi

cmdrZeke : we don't judge ourselfs

CertainVerdict : I do judge others and myself. Always.

CertainVerdict : Judge, and be prepared to be judged.

SpiritdQuestor : YOU put yourself through Hell or Heaven depending on your thoughts

cmdrZeke : well think about it this way, we all want to be happy and free of suffering, so we all do actions that we think will bring us happyness and freedom from suffering

cmdrZeke : show me a person who does NOT want to be happy

foundewe : ha I know quite a few

CertainVerdict : If everyone wanted to be happy and free of suffering, why do so many people sabotage their ambition for happiness by choosing irrational courses of action?

foundewe : they feel unworthy

cmdrZeke : because of ignorance, some people think money will bring them happyness

cmdrZeke : some think power or sex will bring them happyness

cmdrZeke : but they are wrong

CertainVerdict : Indeed, self-esteem is needed in order to enjoy fully the fruits of one's efforts, but even self-esteem must be earned.

cmdrZeke : those things may bring us some pleasure, but pleasure is not happyness

CertainVerdict : cmdr, what is your conception of happiness, if I may ask?

cmdrZeke : freedom from suffering

cmdrZeke : or the lack of suffering,

CertainVerdict : cmdr, you think happiness = freedom of suffering?

cmdrZeke : from

CertainVerdict : cmdr, you mean someone who is suffering cannot have happiness?

CertainVerdict : cmdr, right, from not of. thanks!

CertainVerdict : I have suffered before, but I was still happy.

cmdrZeke : well suffering is also how you look at it

CertainVerdict : If that's what cmdr thinks happiness is, I don't think he knows the kind of happiness I achieve.

CertainVerdict : One could be free of suffering, but also pretty bored.

cmdrZeke : someone annoys you, or you don't like someone, don't think of it as suffering to be around them, think of it as the opertunity to practis patiens and tolarance

CertainVerdict : One could be free of suffering, but also dishonest to himself and others. This would not make one genuinely happy.

CertainVerdict : I notice also that cmdr's conception of happiness has nothing to do with values.

cmdrZeke : Values??

CertainVerdict : cmdr, right, values.

cmdrZeke : ok, suffering is not mearly physical

cmdrZeke : physical suffering is the easyest, least harmfull form of suffering

cmdrZeke : you said one could be free from suffering but be dishonest, that is not true, if you were truely happy, you would not need to be dishonest

CertainVerdict : cmdr, people are not dishonest because need drives them to be. Rather, they choose to be dishonest.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, typically people choose to be dishonest because either they pursue the unearned, or they allow others to pursue the unearned.

cmdrZeke : that what I am saying, ignorance causes dishonesty, as long as you are dishonest you have suffering

CertainVerdict : cmdr, I am ignorant of many things, but this does not cause me to be dishonest.

cmdrZeke : ok, ignorant does not mean book smarts or something like that

CertainVerdict : Spirit, then there goes your thesis that whatever we choose to be right or wrong for us is just that.

cmdrZeke : spiritual ignorance, not knowing what brings true happyness and what will cause suffering

CertainVerdict : cmdr, please elaborate.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, ha! You keep modifying your position it seems.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, and still you do not make any reference to values in your conception of happiness.

cmdrZeke : when?

CertainVerdict : cmdr, that is most telling.

cmdrZeke : what do you mean values??

cmdrZeke : like right and wrong?

CertainVerdict : cmdr, I rest my case.

cmdrZeke : ok here are some "values", If i lie people wont trust me, and will most often lie to me too

CertainVerdict : cmdr, I would say that's a principle, not a value.

cmdrZeke : if I hurt people, people will not like me, and may try to hurt me back

cmdrZeke : ok what is a value then

CertainVerdict : cmdr, that is another principle.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, a value is that which one acts to gain and/or keep.

cmdrZeke : so happyness is a value

CertainVerdict : cmdr, absolutely it is.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, happiness is also selfish.

cmdrZeke : ok, isn't that what I have been talking about this whole time?

cmdrZeke : and you said I did not metion any values

CertainVerdict : cmdr, all values, by definition, are selfish, since they work toward benefiting the pursuer of values.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, right, you didn't.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, your conception of happiness (the absence of suffering) makes no mention of our need for values.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, consider my conception of happiness: the chosen, purposeful achievement of one's values.

cmdrZeke : well many people have achieved there values and have not found happyness

CertainVerdict : For instance, I have a long tough day at work. I come home ragged and exhausted. My knee is in utter pain because I've been standing on it all day (thus I am suffering). But you know what? I'm happy about the day's work.

cmdrZeke : ok, pain does not have to equal suffering

CertainVerdict : cmdr, that is because they are operating on an insufficient view of happiness, and do not recognize the connection between values and happiness.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, pain is a form of suffering, right?

cmdrZeke : it can be

cmdrZeke : depends how you look at it

CertainVerdict : cmdr, "it can be"?

cmdrZeke : have you ever met a person with leprosy?

CertainVerdict : cmdr, You know, I had a torn meniscus in my right knee several years ago. No matter how I looked at it, it hurt like the dickens.

CertainVerdict : But I never lost my happiness.

CertainVerdict : So, again, I find your conception of happiness entirely deficient.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, that's my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you don't like it.

cmdrZeke : I am not saying that you can't be suffer and be happy at the same time, you also seem to over think that sufferin = physical suffering

CertainVerdict : cmdr, I do not think that happiness is what's "left over" when one removes all forms of suffering.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, I am not the one who is dichotomizing pain into physical versus some other form. This is a new modification to your conception, and I see no basis for it.

cmdrZeke : ok, my back hurts right now, is it suffering, not really, it is just my body saying I have been sitting too long and need to streach out

CertainVerdict : cmdr, when I think of suffering, I think of the integrated view of man, not a being split into two opposed halves which can never integrate.

cmdrZeke : if it did not hurn, I may damage my back, so I don't really think my back hurting right now is suffering

CertainVerdict : cmdr, you gave your definition of happiness as "lack of suffering" and "freedom from suffering," right?

cmdrZeke : sure

CertainVerdict : cmdr, then you wanted to modify that definition by dichotomizing what you mean by 'suffering' - you said that suffering is not "merely physical," right?

CertainVerdict : cmdr, I take this to mean that you agree with me that one can have a terrible pain in his knee, but still find happiness. Right?

cmdrZeke : right

CertainVerdict : cmdr, you know what? When I had found out that my meniscus was torn, I also found out that I needed to have an operation.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, mentally, this put me under a lot of pressure, as I do not like the prospect of having an operation.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, so even mentally, I was suffering, if you will.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, but you know what? I was still happy.

cmdrZeke : ok

cmdrZeke : yes

CertainVerdict : cmdr, you know why? Because I have never wavered from my choice in happiness as a purposeful achievement of those values which make my life enriched and complete.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, so again, I cannot accept your conception of happiness as adequate. Especially when I know of a better view of happiness.

cmdrZeke : ok, you choose values to acheive

cmdrZeke : why

CertainVerdict : cmdr, because my life depends on it.

cmdrZeke : because without those values you would suffer

CertainVerdict : cmdr, without values, I cannot live.

cmdrZeke : so you choose lack of suffering

CertainVerdict : cmdr, wrong. I would die, and all suffering would stop.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, see, one of the deficiencies of your view of happiness is that one could say that dead people are happy, since they no longer suffer.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, in fact, I see such a view of happiness as applicable only to those who are dead.

CertainVerdict : cmdr, I think your view of happiness deliberately sabotages genuine happiness.

cmdrZeke : if you beleive there is no after life

CertainVerdict : cmdr, I have no reason to believe that there is an "afterlife."

cmdrZeke : well maybe I am just not explaining it right

CertainVerdict : cmdr, I am talking about reality, not fantasy.

cmdrZeke : maybe you are right

CertainVerdict : cmdr, I wonder if you've really given any of this subject much deep thought before.

cmdrZeke : Yes, I have

CertainVerdict : cmdr, now you have some more to think about.

cmdrZeke : yes I do

CertainVerdict : cmdr, I'm glad to be of help.

cmdrZeke : but I what do you need to have "lack of suffering", you don't just need lack of pain, you also need other things like love and compashoin

CertainVerdict : cmdr, okay, good point. Let's explore it. What is love, and why do you think a person needs it?

cmdrZeke : hmm, thats kinda hard to define

CertainVerdict : cmdr, really? Why is that?

cmdrZeke : the wish for other beings to be happy

CertainVerdict : cmdr, why wish for other beings to be happy, and at whose expense are they to be happy?

CertainVerdict : cmdr, do you see yourself as a servant to make others happy?

CertainVerdict : No wonder people wish for an afterlife... their view of themselves and happiness is so misguided!

cmdrZeke : well you just look at your self and say, I want to be happy, so I think other people must too

CertainVerdict : You know, I recognize that other people's happiness is their own responsibility, just as my happiness is not someone else's responsibility.

cmdrZeke : Well, I must go, but it has been very nice talking to you

cmdrZeke : Namste all

CertainVerdict : cmdr, okay, thanks!