acceptanceOFXcept : I'm not gone

acceptanceOFXcept : he meant mentally

acceptanceOFXcept : as if I was mentally challenged or something

CertainVerdict : oh hi!

acceptanceOFXcept : whats the meaning of your name? Certain Verdict?

acceptanceOFXcept : verdict of what?

acceptanceOFXcept : OJ?

acceptanceOFXcept : 9/11?

CertainVerdict : lol!

CertainVerdict : No.

acceptanceOFXcept : evilution?

CertainVerdict : I am certain that Reason is my only means of knowledge.

acceptanceOFXcept : reason??

CertainVerdict : Yes. Have you ever heard of it?

acceptanceOFXcept : by what you read and interpret to be the truth based on what others write?

CertainVerdict : What do you mean?

acceptanceOFXcept : you said reason

CertainVerdict : Yes. I did.

acceptanceOFXcept : that is based on the ideas of others you choose to utilize as your own ideals or moralities

CertainVerdict : Based on the ideas of others I choose to utilize as my own ideals or moralities?

CertainVerdict : What makes you think this?

acceptanceOFXcept : you just said "reason"

CertainVerdict : Yes. I did.

acceptanceOFXcept : so define how you see reason

acceptanceOFXcept : reason of what?

acceptanceOFXcept : evolution or creation?

CertainVerdict : Reason as a means of knowledge. Do you know what it is?

acceptanceOFXcept : you are being vague with me

acceptanceOFXcept : I know the words

acceptanceOFXcept : I want to know what you are applying the to

CertainVerdict : I don't intend to be. I'm just trying to understand what it is you're asking.

CertainVerdict : I apply reason to life.

acceptanceOFXcept : acceptanceOFXcept : whats the meaning of your name? Certain Verdict

CertainVerdict : Right.

acceptanceOFXcept : you said because you use reason

acceptanceOFXcept : so what reasons do you use to choose what you believe?

CertainVerdict : I choose reason because I want to live.

acceptanceOFXcept : you are still being very vague

acceptanceOFXcept : you choose reason... what have you decided is reason?

CertainVerdict : What is unclear to you?

acceptanceOFXcept : evolution. or creation?

acceptanceOFXcept : and what reason do you have to believe

CertainVerdict : Perhaps you have a different understanding of reason than I do.

acceptanceOFXcept : perhaps

acceptanceOFXcept : so what have you "reasoned" to be your driving force?

CertainVerdict : Reason is a means of knowledge. Neither creationism nor evolution are proposed as means of knowledge, but as explanatory devices.

CertainVerdict : My driving force? My choice to live is my driving force.

acceptanceOFXcept : ok fine

CertainVerdict : Is that clear?

acceptanceOFXcept : fair enough

CertainVerdict : Okay.

acceptanceOFXcept : as clear as you are going to make it

CertainVerdict : Well, if it's not clear, let me know what you want to know.

CertainVerdict : What else could be the driving force in my life other than my choice to live it?

acceptanceOFXcept : Jesus

CertainVerdict : Please try to be serious.

acceptanceOFXcept : sure

CertainVerdict : I don't believe in invisible magic beings, if that's what you want to know.

acceptanceOFXcept : my driving force is to understand and build a relationship with Jesus

acceptanceOFXcept : so you have found actual reasons to believe evolution?

CertainVerdict : Do you want to understand this relationship you speak of?

CertainVerdict : I do not regard evolution as a belief. Rather, I recognize that evolution is true.

acceptanceOFXcept : you recognize evolution as a fact or just that it's true?

CertainVerdict : What would be the difference in your estimate?

acceptanceOFXcept : the definition of evolution seems to be changing all the time

acceptanceOFXcept : based on facts created by science

CertainVerdict : I'm not responsible for that, so I don't know what relevance it has here.

acceptanceOFXcept : but molecules to man doesnt happen and cannot be created

acceptanceOFXcept : nor has science determined where man came from or where life came from

acceptanceOFXcept : since it cannot be observed or replicated

CertainVerdict : I don't think existence is a creation (of course, that puts all gods out of a job).

CertainVerdict : Where man came from? That's easy. Man came from existence.

acceptanceOFXcept : vague

CertainVerdict : Not vague. General. There's a difference.

CertainVerdict : But I wouldn't be surprised if you're frustrated by it.

CertainVerdict : Do you think that man came from non-existence?

CertainVerdict : Just curious here.

acceptanceOFXcept : sure

CertainVerdict : Ah, I see. You think man came from non-existence, and I think man came from existence. Well, we're in a fundamental disagreement then I suppose.

acceptanceOFXcept : I think God created man in his mature state

CertainVerdict : Well, you probably want to believe that...

acceptanceOFXcept : you probably want to believe what you have to

acceptanceOFXcept : because it frees you from the accountability

CertainVerdict : "...frees [me] from the accountability"?

CertainVerdict : When have I claimed to be free of accountability?

acceptanceOFXcept : accountability to Jesus

CertainVerdict : Indeed, I am accountable to reason and reality.

CertainVerdict : Oh, come now. As I said, let's try to be serious here, cept.

CertainVerdict : I do not have to affirm evolution in order to recognize that I have no obligation to some mythical convict who was hung on a tree.

CertainVerdict : As Delos McKown so aptly put it, "Why be born again when you can just grow up?"

CertainVerdict : Really now, cept!

acceptanceOFXcept : really

acceptanceOFXcept : I hope that makes you happy

CertainVerdict : Achievement of my values makes me happy.

CertainVerdict : What other questions do you have for me, cept?

acceptanceOFXcept : ok

acceptanceOFXcept : so good works then?

acceptanceOFXcept : is that what you base everything on?

CertainVerdict : What do you mean by "good works"? This is vague to me.

CertainVerdict : I base everything on reason, as I indicated earlier.

CertainVerdict : cept, are you still there??

acceptanceOFXcept : sorry I'm on a call with a client right now

CertainVerdict : oh, okay. I was hoping you could still chat with me.

acceptanceOFXcept : yes I can

acceptanceOFXcept : hang on one min

CertainVerdict : Okay!

CertainVerdict : Thanks!

acceptanceOFXcept : ok back with you

acceptanceOFXcept : where were we.

CertainVerdict : You had asked something about "good works" and whether I "based everything" on them.

acceptanceOFXcept : do you?

CertainVerdict : Well, I had already indicated that I base everything on reason.

CertainVerdict : I had also stated that the phrase "good works" is vague to me.

acceptanceOFXcept : CertainVerdict : Achievement of my values makes me happy.

CertainVerdict : Sure does.

acceptanceOFXcept : what do you call values?

acceptanceOFXcept : good works

CertainVerdict : A value is anything which I act to gain and/or keep.

CertainVerdict : For instance, food is a value. So is shelter. Hygeine.

CertainVerdict : etc.

CertainVerdict : I don't know what is meant by the term "good works," so I cannot say that values are "good works."

acceptanceOFXcept : things you do for other people

CertainVerdict : I see.

acceptanceOFXcept : you can either do them for self glorification

acceptanceOFXcept : or for the Glorification of Christ

acceptanceOFXcept : the later is correct

CertainVerdict : "self-glorification"? What do you mean by "glorification"?

CertainVerdict : And who says that one's motivation to do something must be someone's "glorification"?

acceptanceOFXcept : to raise yourself up in one manner or another

acceptanceOFXcept : for example. Ted Turner... familar with him?

CertainVerdict : To "raise yourself upin one manner or another"? You mean, to seek to improve one's life?

acceptanceOFXcept : He has donated over $1 bill to charities and such

acceptanceOFXcept : but he does it for himself

acceptanceOFXcept : he's an atheist

acceptanceOFXcept : kind of like you

CertainVerdict : What's wrong with doing something for oneself?

acceptanceOFXcept : first of all its selfish

CertainVerdict : By definition, of course it's selfish. What's wrong with that?

acceptanceOFXcept : things that you do for people you do because you care right?

acceptanceOFXcept : because you want to help someone?

CertainVerdict : I do things for other people whom I value. I do them only for a selfish motive.

acceptanceOFXcept : is that so that person can see what a great person you are

acceptanceOFXcept : or how God is working through you?

CertainVerdict : Do you think it's wrong to act on behalf of one's own interests?

acceptanceOFXcept : no

acceptanceOFXcept : I dont think its wrong

CertainVerdict : Then what's the problem?

acceptanceOFXcept : the problem is this

acceptanceOFXcept : you cant do something for someone for your own selfish gain

CertainVerdict : Who says I can't?

acceptanceOFXcept : and expect that gain to manifest itself in any good way

CertainVerdict : Why not?

CertainVerdict : I do this all the time.

acceptanceOFXcept : when you do it in that manner, then you have already gotten your reward

acceptanceOFXcept : the reward of having done it

CertainVerdict : And I like rewards.

acceptanceOFXcept : For example

CertainVerdict : So?

acceptanceOFXcept : mormons...

acceptanceOFXcept : they do nice things for people because they are trying to work for their "gifts"

acceptanceOFXcept : or promise

CertainVerdict : As I said, happiness results from my achieving my values.

acceptanceOFXcept : christians do things for people because they have ALREADY received their gift

acceptanceOFXcept : values are not the same as good works for others

CertainVerdict : Sounds like they want to earn something. Do you think it's wrong to want to earn one's values?

acceptanceOFXcept : those are your own values you have established

acceptanceOFXcept : Mormons want to earn a better place in heaven

CertainVerdict : Well, they've bought into a con-job if that's what they want.

acceptanceOFXcept : by doing things to try to please God by good works alone

acceptanceOFXcept : yes they have

acceptanceOFXcept : its very sad

CertainVerdict : But regardless, I'm still trying to understand what you are saying is wrong or bad.

CertainVerdict : I cannot please that which does not exist.

acceptanceOFXcept : Doing something for somene just because you want to be recognized as having good values is wrong

CertainVerdict : And in fact, my primary motivation for action is not to please someone else.

acceptanceOFXcept : ok

acceptanceOFXcept : you are coming at me slanted...

CertainVerdict : I don't do things "just because [I] want to be recognized" for anything.

acceptanceOFXcept : slightly twisting what I am saying to fit your need

CertainVerdict : I do not live in the minds of others, cept.

acceptanceOFXcept : thats good

acceptanceOFXcept : nor do I

CertainVerdict : Well, I obviously have a completely different conception of morality than you do.

acceptanceOFXcept : we know that already

CertainVerdict : My motivation to do things is not to earn favor in someone else's mind.

acceptanceOFXcept : thats why its interesting to discuss

acceptanceOFXcept : right

CertainVerdict : Oh yes.

acceptanceOFXcept : alright

CertainVerdict : Very interesting.

CertainVerdict : Again, my motivation for action is to achieve what I have chosen to value.

acceptanceOFXcept : so you have said that your motivation for anything you do is completely to make yourself to be a person with good values

CertainVerdict : What others think of me is of little or no value whatsoever to me.

CertainVerdict : Now you're twisting my words a bit I think.

acceptanceOFXcept : not intentional

CertainVerdict : My motivation is to achieve those values, not "to make [myself] to be a person with good values" - of course, you could say this is a natural consequence, but it is not the goal.

CertainVerdict : The goal of my actions is to live and enjoy my life, regardless of who does not approve.

CertainVerdict : This upsets some people, I know.

acceptanceOFXcept : ok

acceptanceOFXcept : I can understand that

CertainVerdict : Does it make sense?

acceptanceOFXcept : so live today dont worry about tomorrow

acceptanceOFXcept : right

CertainVerdict : Actually, that's what Jesus teaches: "take no thought for the morrow..."

CertainVerdict : But I do not follow that advice.

CertainVerdict : Indeed, I plan the future quite purposefully.

acceptanceOFXcept : where did Jesus say that at??

CertainVerdict : Matt. 6:34.

CertainVerdict : "Take no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

acceptanceOFXcept : first it said seek ye first the kingdom of God

acceptanceOFXcept : take no thought for the morrow

acceptanceOFXcept : because there is enough evil for today in the world

CertainVerdict : And indeed, it makes sense if you accept Jesus' irrational premises: if there is an invisible magic being which has already predestined the future, then why act?

acceptanceOFXcept : you cant abide verse 34 and omit 33

CertainVerdict : Right. As you say, "so live today dont worry about tomorrow"

acceptanceOFXcept : thats only if you seek the kingdom of God first

CertainVerdict : I'm not omitting anything.

acceptanceOFXcept : if you don't then you should definitely worry about tomorrow

CertainVerdict : Well, I don't advocate either "seeking the kingdom of god" or "living for today and not thinking of tomorrow"

CertainVerdict : So, it's moot anyway.

CertainVerdict : Well, that's why I have a 401k.

acceptanceOFXcept : ok moot point then

acceptanceOFXcept : I'm sure your 401k is very safe too

acceptanceOFXcept : at least thats what Enron employees thought

acceptanceOFXcept : MCI employees though

CertainVerdict : We'll see. But it is action which I do take now for the future.

CertainVerdict : And your point?

acceptanceOFXcept : people working in the WTC

acceptanceOFXcept : nothing in this world is safe and assured

acceptanceOFXcept : its like building a home on sand

acceptanceOFXcept : instead of rock

CertainVerdict : Indeed, that's why one should never adopt the idea "take no thought of the morrow..."

CertainVerdict : You make my points for me, cept. Thank you.

acceptanceOFXcept : I make your points for you?

acceptanceOFXcept : how is that?

CertainVerdict : Yep!

acceptanceOFXcept : I'm glad you were able to twist and wriggle your way into keeping to your current status in life

CertainVerdict : My point is that the future is not automatically granted (as implied when one says "take no thought of the morrow..."), but that one must take action to plan it carefully.

acceptanceOFXcept : bothers me none.

CertainVerdict : What did I "twist and wriggle"?

acceptanceOFXcept : God could take it up tomorrow from you

acceptanceOFXcept : the whole convo

CertainVerdict : If it doesn't bother you, why would you say this?

acceptanceOFXcept : to make sure your point was fitting to what you currently have in the works for yourself

CertainVerdict : Well, again, as I said above, if I believed in an invisible magic being, then I wouldn't care about anything.

acceptanceOFXcept : doesn't bother me how you live your life

acceptanceOFXcept : you cannot offer something to someone who you know will reject it

CertainVerdict : Indeed, if I thought an invisible magic being were in control of everything, then whatever I did would be useless.

acceptanceOFXcept : maybe if there were an invisible magic being in control of everything

CertainVerdict : Right, and I offer reason, and I know already that you reject it.

acceptanceOFXcept : but since its a being that manifested in flesh and died on the cross for our sins

acceptanceOFXcept : then he's not exactly invisible is he?

CertainVerdict : I don't see it.

acceptanceOFXcept : your reason is based on your worldview

CertainVerdict : Did you see this "being that manifested in flesh and died on the cross"? Be honest now, cept.

CertainVerdict : Actually, my worldview is based on reason.

acceptanceOFXcept : yes again back to my original question

acceptanceOFXcept : what have you reasoned to be true or reasonable?

CertainVerdict : Did you see this "being that manifested in flesh and died on the cross"? Be honest now, cept.

acceptanceOFXcept : no, I didnt personally see it, just as you didnt observe evolution taking place or the formation of the universe

acceptanceOFXcept : however I have a written account to refer to

CertainVerdict : You didn't see it???

CertainVerdict : How do you know I haven't observed evolution taking place?

acceptanceOFXcept : neither did you see evolution happen

acceptanceOFXcept : but you stand on reason as your "reason"

CertainVerdict : And I do not argue that the universe was "formed."

CertainVerdict : So, you want to make a tu quoque here... you know, that's a form of ad hominem...

CertainVerdict : I'd prefer you'd not take that base route, cept.

CertainVerdict : So, again, it seems that your magic being is invisible after all, since you admit that you haven't seen it personally.

CertainVerdict : Just like the invisible magic elf which sits on my shoulder.

CertainVerdict : Now cept, you must have more questions for me, no?

CertainVerdict : Cept, are you there???

acceptanceOFXcept : sorry on the phone with a client

acceptanceOFXcept : back now

CertainVerdict : ah, okay!

acceptanceOFXcept : actually unlike the magic elf on your shoulder

acceptanceOFXcept : I talk to Jesus daily

acceptanceOFXcept : and He answers my prayers

acceptanceOFXcept : Jesus comes through for me when no one else has

CertainVerdict : You mean, you mean you whisper to the walls?

acceptanceOFXcept : so I will continue giving my faith to Jesus

acceptanceOFXcept : thats a tired arguement

CertainVerdict : Cept, I have a question for you. Can I ask it?

acceptanceOFXcept : please try to bring it up a notch

acceptanceOFXcept : the only reason you would ask if you wanted to ask a question is because you are going to say something smart.

CertainVerdict : Well, if I thought I were talking to an adult, I'd take it up a notch...

acceptanceOFXcept : is that the case?

acceptanceOFXcept : there we go...

acceptanceOFXcept : as I predicted

acceptanceOFXcept : what is your point?

acceptanceOFXcept : your point is that you are a non believer and I am a believer

CertainVerdict : If what happens in the end is all god's will, why pray?

acceptanceOFXcept : because I have a better understanding of the bible than that

acceptanceOFXcept : so I really do not have to worry about something of that nature.

CertainVerdict : No, my point is that you have to surrender reason in order to claim that you believe this nonsense.

CertainVerdict : But I'm sure that went over your head long ago.

acceptanceOFXcept : I have lots of reason

CertainVerdict : You have lots of nonsense.

acceptanceOFXcept : Atheism isnt so much that you dont believe in God

CertainVerdict : There is no compromise between reason and nonsense, just as there is no compromise between food and poison.

acceptanceOFXcept : its that lack of belief in God that allows you to believe and follow anything.

acceptanceOFXcept : sure there is

acceptanceOFXcept : I know a man that is allergic to flour

CertainVerdict : Atheism is the absence of god-belief, that's all.

acceptanceOFXcept : but I can eat it fine

acceptanceOFXcept : and in that absense you will believe anything

CertainVerdict : Is flour poisonous to you?

acceptanceOFXcept : you allow anything else to try to fill that void

acceptanceOFXcept : not to me

acceptanceOFXcept : but to a friend of mine

CertainVerdict : You drop context.

CertainVerdict : How careless.

acceptanceOFXcept : that was on purpose

CertainVerdict : You have not shown that any thing I accept as knowledge is absurd, cept. Why would you say that I would "allow anything" to "try to fill that void"??

acceptanceOFXcept : because it was just you twisting things to fit your ideals again

CertainVerdict : What exactly did I twist?

acceptanceOFXcept : first you maintain that everything I believe in is a fairytale

CertainVerdict : As I said, there is no compromise between food and poison. You said "sure there is," but haven't shown any counterexamples.

acceptanceOFXcept : yet you hold that all the physical world is all there is

CertainVerdict : I did not say that everything you believe is a fairytale.

acceptanceOFXcept : I believe in Jesus

acceptanceOFXcept : and God

acceptanceOFXcept : and the Holy spirit

CertainVerdict : When have I declared "that all the physical works is all there is"?

acceptanceOFXcept : what do you refer to them as?

acceptanceOFXcept : I refer to them as the Tri Une

CertainVerdict : Indeed, I am quite clear: existence exists, and nothing else.

CertainVerdict : I refer to them as figments of imagination.

acceptanceOFXcept : nothing outside of your 5 senses

acceptanceOFXcept : there you go

CertainVerdict : I did not say they were "fairytales," nor did I say that everything you believe is a fairytale.

acceptanceOFXcept : you just stated that what I believe in is imagination

CertainVerdict : The beliefs under dispute, yes. But I certainly allow for the potential that you accept ideas outside these beliefs which are not "fairytales."

CertainVerdict : Indeed, in order to picture something which is invisible or has not been seen, I would have to rely on my imagination.

CertainVerdict : Like reading a novel, I have to rely on my ability to conjure mental images (imagination) in order to concretize the details of the story.

CertainVerdict : Same with the gospel.

CertainVerdict : It's heavily dependent on your imagination.

acceptanceOFXcept : the gospel huh..

acceptanceOFXcept : ok

CertainVerdict : Now, you might want to dispute this, but then you reveal yourself to be dishonest.

acceptanceOFXcept : in your book maybe

acceptanceOFXcept : but God speaks to me daily

acceptanceOFXcept : so God is real to me

CertainVerdict : Sure, when you read the NT accounts, don't you imagine what Jesus must have looked like when he was being whipped and flogged?

acceptanceOFXcept : and no He doesn't speak to me in an audible voice

acceptanceOFXcept : God speaks to me through the holy spirit within me

acceptanceOFXcept : and to my heart

CertainVerdict : How do you distinguish between "God's voice" and your imagination, cept?

acceptanceOFXcept : he was unrecognizable

acceptanceOFXcept : because I have all my faculties

CertainVerdict : Who was "unrecognizable"?

acceptanceOFXcept : I don't talk to myself like some people

CertainVerdict : Again, how do you distinguish between "God's voice" and your imagination?

acceptanceOFXcept : Jesus was beaten to the point of not being recognizable

acceptanceOFXcept : because I don't have a mineral deficiency

acceptanceOFXcept :

acceptanceOFXcept : do you?

CertainVerdict : Well, perhaps you don't talk to yourself, but you are saying that invisible magic beings do talk to you.

acceptanceOFXcept : I have a strong faith built in belief in Jesus

CertainVerdict : I have no idea if I have mineral deficiencies.

acceptanceOFXcept : please scroll up for your answer

CertainVerdict : Yes, faith is saying something is true because you *want* it to be true.

acceptanceOFXcept : caused hallucinations and weakens the body allows insanity to come in

CertainVerdict : Even Hebrews 11:1 is explicit in making faith dependent on hopes.

CertainVerdict : Are you back?

CertainVerdict : What happened? AUR kicked you out?

acceptanceOFXcept : yes they do that

acceptanceOFXcept : because they dispise me completely

CertainVerdict : Well, I would advise that you not try to give them any more reasons why.

CertainVerdict : Now, do you have any more questions for me, cept??

acceptanceOFXcept : thats kind of hard to do since I dont believe in evolution as they do

acceptanceOFXcept : were you a believer at one time in your life before?

CertainVerdict : So far it seems you are saying that atheism is wrong because you don't like it. Am I understanding you right?

acceptanceOFXcept : no you are not

CertainVerdict : No I am not what??

acceptanceOFXcept : atheism is wrong, just as wrong as being a mormon

CertainVerdict : Not understanding correctly?

acceptanceOFXcept : or other faith that doesnt recognize jesus as the only way to God

CertainVerdict : Well, I know you don't like atheism or mormonism, but I'm just wondering if that's the extent of your beef.

acceptanceOFXcept : the bible clearly states that the only way to God is through Jesus

acceptanceOFXcept : and if you are not for Jesus

acceptanceOFXcept : then you are against Him

CertainVerdict : So, atheism is wrong because you don't want it to be right?

acceptanceOFXcept : whether you think you are exempt from that because you simply do not believe or whatever

acceptanceOFXcept : not true

acceptanceOFXcept : christianity is wrong to you because you don't want it to be right

acceptanceOFXcept : for then you have to be accountable

CertainVerdict : Well, as I often say, "Hell is for believers," and of course, this is true.

acceptanceOFXcept : and thats something all atheists cannot accept

acceptanceOFXcept : thats a myth

CertainVerdict : Cept, even if I wanted Christianity to be right (as you apparently do), that would not make it right.

acceptanceOFXcept : If you believe and accept Jesus in your heart

CertainVerdict : As I said earlier, I am accountable - to reality.

acceptanceOFXcept : then you do not have to go to hell

acceptanceOFXcept : reality was created by God to serve Him

CertainVerdict : I can't go to a place that does not exist, cept.

acceptanceOFXcept : believe me it exists

CertainVerdict : If "reality was created by God" then you admit that god cannot be real.

acceptanceOFXcept : you just cannot go there in your fleshly body

acceptanceOFXcept : God is very real

CertainVerdict : Believe you? Why would I believe something that a person who believes in invisible magic beings says?

acceptanceOFXcept : God is within us and we are within Him

acceptanceOFXcept : well theres your answer then

CertainVerdict : Of course, I can't go to a place that doesn't exist, cept. Do you think you can?

acceptanceOFXcept : why don't you try to seek Him out

acceptanceOFXcept : and see what you can find

acceptanceOFXcept : try to disprove that God exists

CertainVerdict : I can't seek something that does not exist, cept.

acceptanceOFXcept : do your research

CertainVerdict : Why would I have to "disprove that God exists"?

acceptanceOFXcept : then you should find plenty of facts or proof against it then

acceptanceOFXcept : and it should be no problem

CertainVerdict : Indeed, if existence exists, then god cannot exist.

acceptanceOFXcept : because that is the only way you will know for certain

CertainVerdict : I am certain. Look at my name.

acceptanceOFXcept : The bible says that God created existence

CertainVerdict : Then that can only mean that god does not exist.

CertainVerdict : Game, set and match.

CertainVerdict : You're done.

acceptanceOFXcept : so the that alone means that God exists if existence exists

CertainVerdict : Here you commit yourself to the fallacy of the stolen concept explicitly.

acceptanceOFXcept : no, I'm not done, you are just worn down and tired of trying to reason with me on your levels

CertainVerdict : You assume the very thing which you want to deny.

acceptanceOFXcept : Water existed first

CertainVerdict : How do you know that, cept?

CertainVerdict : If water exists, then existence exists.

acceptanceOFXcept : Water is around the universe

acceptanceOFXcept : God separated the waters

CertainVerdict : What do you mean by "around the universe"?

acceptanceOFXcept : and created the earth

CertainVerdict : You must have a very primitive understanding of what the universe is.

acceptanceOFXcept : I mean around the outside of the universe lies a large body of water

CertainVerdict : Right, that's call the primacy of consciousness view of reality. It is invalid.

acceptanceOFXcept : sure I must

acceptanceOFXcept : since the universe has alot of water in it as well

CertainVerdict : It assumes a stolen concept (the very one which you endorsed explicitly above).

CertainVerdict : It's quite funny that you don't see it.

acceptanceOFXcept : we do see it

CertainVerdict : How much water is in the universe, cept, and how do you know how much there is?

acceptanceOFXcept : The bible says there are storehouses for hail stones

CertainVerdict : Right. Another myth.

acceptanceOFXcept : if you look at the oort cloud, with trillions of them in there

CertainVerdict : Has anyone ever seen these "storehouses for hail stones"? lol

acceptanceOFXcept : yes science has seen it

CertainVerdict : And earlier you wanted me to "take it up a notch."

CertainVerdict : Are they padlocked?

CertainVerdict : You are saying that a cloud is a "storehouse"?

CertainVerdict : My, what a bad case of conceptual dropsy you have, cept.

CertainVerdict : I recommend a dose of reason to clear that up.

acceptanceOFXcept : thank you

acceptanceOFXcept : by the way.

acceptanceOFXcept : God bless you

CertainVerdict : Yes?

acceptanceOFXcept : and have a great day

CertainVerdict : Well, that's an empty threat...

acceptanceOFXcept : hope you get your life in order.

acceptanceOFXcept : bye

CertainVerdict : Running away?

CertainVerdict : So soon?

acceptanceOFXcept : I'm going to the room to talk

acceptanceOFXcept : you tried to run off earlier

acceptanceOFXcept : so I assumed you wanted to go

CertainVerdict : I don't think they want to talk to you.

CertainVerdict : What made you assume that I want to go?

acceptanceOFXcept : you said "you're done"

CertainVerdict : As far as your effort to argue for your position, yes, you're finished. Kaput.

CertainVerdict : But I did not say that I was done.

CertainVerdict : Nor did I say that I was preparing to leave.

CertainVerdict : Hmmmm....

acceptanceOFXcept : you are an atheist

acceptanceOFXcept : I am a christian

acceptanceOFXcept : I am a believer in Jesus

CertainVerdict : Yes. I have no god-belief. You believe in invisible magic beings.

acceptanceOFXcept : you continually insult and mock me

acceptanceOFXcept : I do not like that

acceptanceOFXcept : but I tolerate it

acceptanceOFXcept : because you simply do not know any better

CertainVerdict : Well, you continually misrepresent my view, and I tolerate that.

CertainVerdict : I guess we're even?

CertainVerdict : See, you say "because you simply do not know any better," and you've nowhere established this to be the case.

acceptanceOFXcept : you have no view out side of the worldview

CertainVerdict : Which means your indoctrination must be complete, right?

acceptanceOFXcept : if you have been brought up or learned that evolution and dust is all that there is then you do not know any better

acceptanceOFXcept : kind of like a young little girl being screwed by her brothers

acceptanceOFXcept : she doesnt know better until some one tells her

acceptanceOFXcept : or she finds out

CertainVerdict : I was not brought up to believe that "evolution and dust is all that there is."

acceptanceOFXcept : so go find out

acceptanceOFXcept : so you WILL know better next time

acceptanceOFXcept : good bye and God bless

CertainVerdict : May you get what you deserve.

CertainVerdict : For you surely will.