311eons : its a simple concept certain

CertainVerdict : 311, sorry, come again?

CertainVerdict : 311, what is simple?

311eons : the claim you were asking about

CertainVerdict : 311, a claim is not a concept; rather, a claim is made up of concepts; which concept is "simple"?

311eons : the overall concept of the claim

CertainVerdict : 311, please explain.

311eons : ok everyones reaction to existance is fear...

CertainVerdict : 311, that is the claim. How does one establish it?

311eons : we fear the world

CertainVerdict : 311, I already know that it's not a true claim, because I am someone, and my reaction to existence is certainly not one of fear.

CertainVerdict : 311, do you fear the world?

311eons : sub-consciously we all do

CertainVerdict : 311, so, you fear existence subconsciously??

311eons : its not fear per se

CertainVerdict : 311, now it seems you're changing the conclusion of your argument. Want to rephrase it for the record?

311eons : its an instinctive fear

311eons : for survival

CertainVerdict : 311 - earlier you say "our reaction to existence is fear" - then you say "we fear the world" now you say "its not fear per se" [sic]

CertainVerdict : 311, I do not accept the claim that we have instincts.

311eons : and why is that

CertainVerdict : 311, because I understand how the mind works. It does not work on instincts.

CertainVerdict : 311, so, if one of your premises is that instincts are valid in the case of human beings, then I must reject your conclusion.

CertainVerdict : 311, and as I already suspected, it is false - since I know that my reaction to existence is certainly not fear.

311eons : why is it that other mammals have instincts, but we dont, sigmund?

CertainVerdict : 311, because we have evolved a conceptual level of consciousness, which lower animals lack.

CertainVerdict : 311, by the way, my name is not sigmund.

311eons : lol it was just a joke

CertainVerdict : 311, I'll overlook it.

rediago : 311, you should give up now!

rediago : CertainVerdict is obviously much more intelligent than you, even though you are very intelligent

311eons : does a conceptual level of consciousness completely rule out any instinct

CertainVerdict : red, thanks for the compliment. I have no idea who is more intelligent, but I simply do not accept arbitrary premises like those which have been proposed.

CertainVerdict : 311, what do you think?

rediago : I guess it is more a matter of who is better at debating then?

311eons : i dont believe that we perceive everything we see conceptually

CertainVerdict : red, I would say it is a matter of who's done his homework, and who understands the hierarchical structure of his knowledge better (at this point anyway)

CertainVerdict : 311, concepts are not a means of perception; so the metaphor of "seeing conceptually" may immediately be problematic.

rediago : certain - you are right, that's why I am not getting into a debate with you!

311eons : that is not what i mean

CertainVerdict : red, lol!

CertainVerdict : 311, please try to present your notions with a greater degree of accuracy then.

311eons : when we see something, we conceptualize what we see

rediago : cogent, but i enjoy reading your debates with others

CertainVerdict : 311, okay, go on.

CertainVerdict : red, okay!

311eons : so we percieve many more things than we can conceptualize at once

CertainVerdict : 311, the issue at this point (conceptualizing what we perceive) is: is this process automatic and infallible (i.e., instinctual), or is it something which we must learn to do by conscious effort - i.e., by choice?

CertainVerdict : 311, fallibility only enters with the evolution of a volitional form of consciousness.

CertainVerdict : 311, we do not say that a parakeet "makes mistakes"

311eons : i understand that

CertainVerdict : 311, if you accept that, then you'll see my reason for not accepting the notion that we have instincts.

311eons : what im saying is that we do not conceptualize everything we percieve

CertainVerdict : 311, so what?

311eons : and that would make room for instincts

CertainVerdict : 311, doesn't follow (i.e., non sequitur)

311eons : what

311eons : does that mean

CertainVerdict : 311, it does not follow from the supposition that we do not conceptualize everything which we perceive that this "would make room for instincts"

CertainVerdict : 311, do you know what a non sequitur is?

311eons : no that is why i asked

CertainVerdict : 311, this is an informal fallacy - it means that the inference which you are drawing from previously validated (or merely assumed to be valid) premises is not supported by those premises.

CertainVerdict : 311, essentially, the conclusion does not follow from the premises offered in support of it.

311eons : oh

311eons : i understand

CertainVerdict : 311, so again, I do not accept the notion that human beings have instincts.

311eons : but do we just not process the perceptions which are not conceptualized

CertainVerdict : 311, so if that humans have instincts is essential to establishing your claim that everyone's reaction to existence is fear, then I summarily disagree.

311eons : i know that you do not believe that humans have instincts

CertainVerdict : 311, the questions which you are now beginning to ask about the process of concept-formation are better answered, not in a debate, but by consulting a primer on epistemology.

311eons : you are escaping the point

CertainVerdict : 311, no, I've shown how your intended route to establishing your claim fails, and I'm moving on.

CertainVerdict : 311, is there another route which you would like to take in order to "prove" your claim that everyone's reaction to existence is one of fear?

311eons : no not really

CertainVerdict : 311, do you believe that "everyone's reaction to existence is fear"?

CertainVerdict : 311, when I hear claims like this, I just wonder how one can think he can make such judgments about other human beings like that.

311eons : if human beings are completely conceptual and do not have any animal instincts, then we should not have reason to fear anything

CertainVerdict : 311, again, that's another non sequitur.

311eons : no it isnt

CertainVerdict : 311, what you're saying is that the absence of instincts must imply the absence of fear. But this does not follow.

CertainVerdict : 311, where do you get these notions of yours?

311eons : from the innards of my brain

CertainVerdict : 311, do what "the innards of your brain" produce have any relationship to reality?

311eons : they percieve the outside world

311eons : and proces what they see

311eons : process*'

CertainVerdict : 311, of course. Perception has an object. But your claims are completely uncoordinated here.

CertainVerdict : 311, how do you "see" that "everyone's reaction to existence is fear"?

CertainVerdict : 311, OR, do you just WANT that to be the case?

CertainVerdict : 311, I doubt you've taken a poll of everyone who's ever existed, so you do not get this from unanimous testimony.

CertainVerdict : 311, after all, you've not asked me.

311eons : i SEE the patterns of religion and culture

CertainVerdict : 311, you see "patterns"? And these "patterns" tell you this?

CertainVerdict : 311, you'll have to do better than this.

311eons : i'll admit, i do make the assumption that most people are similar to me in the way they think

CertainVerdict : 311, ah! Now we're getting somewhere

CertainVerdict : 311, do you think this assumption is justified?

311eons : but i believe that they likely DO

311eons : i think that we are all alike

CertainVerdict : 311, right, you "believe" this, but can you establish as a certainty that they in fact DO think similarly to you?

311eons : we may have different beliefs

311eons : but our brain functions are he same

CertainVerdict : 311, if we have different beliefs, doesn't this tell you that we might actually think a little differently?

311eons : of course we think differently, but our brains work physically in the same way

CertainVerdict : 311, I would say that in general our brains have similar basic identity; and so far, you've been corrected on your assumption that it operates on instincts.

CertainVerdict : 311, how does your brain work? Do you think it operates on the basis of fear?

CertainVerdict : 311, what exactly are you afraid of, and why?

311eons : well i did believe that it partially operated on instinct

CertainVerdict : 311, let's focus on you; your claim is that "everyone's reaction to existence is fear"; this obviously must include you, right?

311eons : and fear i believe is an instinct

CertainVerdict : 311, fear is not an instinct; it is an emotional reaction. Big difference.

311eons : of course ity includes me

CertainVerdict : 311, okay, why are you afraid of existence?

311eons : i dont know why

CertainVerdict : 311, but you do fear existence, right?

311eons : well i dont fear it intensely

CertainVerdict : 311, what is it then, you do have some fear of existence? Is that it?

CertainVerdict : 311, if you fear existing, why don't you stop existing?

CertainVerdict : 311, you do have this option, you know.

CertainVerdict : 311, can you tell me why you are afraid of existence?

CertainVerdict : Oh, he left!!!

CertainVerdict : bummer…