Dear Kaylen,

We're sending prayers and lots of good thoughts tonight for you and Baranof.  Jane's idea sounds good, if you could let him come home at night.  I don't know if it would be ok in an acute situation, but gingko is supposed to help increase circulation in the tiny capilaries of the kidneys and help with kidney failure/disease.  Maybe someone knows more about it?

Sending lots of love and best wishes,

Laurie (Wildflower)

<<S/D stands for Science diet's Struvite/Diet. changes ph of urine to disolve srtuvite crystals. do not use this food on oxalate (sp?) crystals. make sure micro is>>

Just an FYI based on casual empiricism (no studies that I know of to back this up) - a lot of cats on the CRF list have been on "acidifying diets" - u guessed it - Science Diet! A woman on that list who holds a PhD in chemistry has had some interesting thoughts (too technical for this poor cat mom to remember) on how this might set cats up for serious kidney problems in the future.

Vick, your post on grainless raw diets makes a lotta sense.  More food for thought, eh?

<<much to my chagrin, after all my anti-grain tirades, i read the following in the veterinary text i mentioned yesterday:
    "corn gluten meal substantially reduced urine pH in meal fed cats, presumably due to it's higher sulfur amino acid content">>

All the best to Cindi's LUTD (love these acronyms! <g>) kitty from me and the kits.

Sandy, owned and operated by the grainless mountain cats

Dearest Kaylen,

Oh, I'm sooo sorry to hear all the problems Baranof is having now!  Don't despair, though.  If you want to keep trying, it seems entirely possible that with a transfusion you could buy enough time to sort things out and make progress.  You would want to get it quickly, though.  When Tribble's PCV got down to 10 (dropped 6 points in one morning due to internal bleeding) over a
year ago, she started gasping for air and convulsing right there in the vet's office.  We put her in an oxygen tent and got a transfusion, and she pulled through just great.  I think they said that the transfusion can last a few months, but I could be wrong.  I'm sure it depends on the cause of the anemia, whether something is wiping out the red blood cells or they're just not being produced.  I would do that right away, to at least give him and you one more chance.  It seems to me that with so few red blood cells to carry oxygen he can't possibly fight the infection, so it might help with that, too.

Meanwhile, try to avoid having him make any sudden exertions that could overstress his blood's oxygen-carrying abilities.  Tribble collapsed trying to run away from a sudden loud noise.

Is it possible that the Prednisone is causing a bleeding ulcer?  It can be very irritating to the stomach.  We have to give Tribble Sucralfate and Cytotec (both are ulcer meds) to prevent that with her Pred.  When we tried to cut back on the Sucralfate she got anemic again, evidently from digestive tract bleeding.

As far as holistic things for the anemia, the raw liver mentioned earlier sounds like a great idea.  Please try to get organic liver if possible.  Also,  I give Tribble freshly juiced beet, beet leaf, dandelion green and wheatgrass juices for her liver and anemia.  Seems to work great.  You could try Ferr Phos Schuessler cell salts, good for anemia and also infections.

Please don't try to second-guess yourself about whether or not you're doing the right thing.  I'm sure Baranof knows you're trying to help him, and that he wants to stay with  you as long as possible.  I hope you two will have lots of good times together still!

Sending lots of prayers and supportive vibes,

Laurie (Wildflower), Dan and Tribble

P.S. If you want any more details on the stuff we did to reverse Tribble's liver problems, I can email you privately.  If you want to talk, call me anytime, literally day or night anytime!

katseven@ wrote:
<<(where16.0 to 36. is normal), and his CREAT is 2.7 (where .80 and 2.40 is normal), so it is high. However, the vet said she's
confident that Pete's kidneys are okay right now, but I'm still worried.>>

Susan, each lab has different "average' values. Was the original testing done by the same lab?  At any rate, I'd go ahead and try some herbs for pete just in case.  My fav herb Dandelion is good cuz u mentioned in an earlier post that he has always drunk a lot of water.  Since blood tests are not an early (enough) indicator of kidney failure, why take a chance, right?  I give all the kits herbs now and then to build up their immune system.

<< coat, and aggression are all stress-related, so it looks like I will need to  work on that.  I have a book on cat massage--I also want to get a copy  of the Tellington Touch.  I think I'll try "talking" to Pete, too.>>

Good idea.  Massage is so good for kitties (and humans).  I don't do any fancy shmancy stuff - just gently massage them all over, always toward the heart.  And they all totally dig it. I follow it w/ grooming and treats (turkey chunks are their favorite treat).

Have u tried any specific FEs? U mentioned Quaking Grass and RR have not helped.  Wonder if u could try another essence alone.  Do u have any homeopathy books?  U can get some ideas from there too.  How about Calms Forte mixed in w/ some spring water?

Major vibes for Pete from the kitty gang here.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

Hi Kidz,

I've been pondering this for quite a while, and can't really make a decision.  Hopefully you guyz can help.

There is talk that added fermentable fiber can help lower the BUN and Creatinine #'s for a crf kitty, by absorbing the toxins and expelling them through the bowel, instead of the kidneys.

I didn't realize this, but I've been giving Rudy, FiberSol (psyllium seed husks, guar gum, apple pectin, Vitamin C) to help keep his poops normal.  He has IBD, and CRF.  Rudy's last blood test showed his BUN and Creatinine in the normal range!!  I'm debating on whether or not to give Sammy (also crf) FiberSol, to help lower his kidney #'s.

My vet said to go ahead, that it couldn't hurt, but I have reservations.  As the fiber is absorbing toxins, wouldn't it also absorb
nutrients?  Would the added fiber make him lose weight?  Fiber is used in weight reduction programs, for people.  Can you guyz think of anything why I should not give Sammy FiberSol?

Tracy - Don't freak out.  I should of said that when it starts to get into the 2's it's an indication that the kidneys are starting to slow down or the functions are starting to decline or early stage or maybe kidney disease but I shouldn't have used the term crf.  I'm beginning to see because my cat Puff also has a creat. value in the 2's that it's a time to take notice, modify the diet etc.  before it progresses further.  I think it's just like in human's, kidney disease can be part of old age.  A life time of commercial cat food with artificial stuff and by-products taking their toll.  I was talking to Pat McKay recently (she's the author of Reigning Cats & Dogs) and she was saying that all cats over age 6 have some form of kidney disease.  And Antrita Frazier in her books says that most older cats have declined kidney functions ( or somthing like that).

When Puff's test result first came back in June with a creat. value of 2.88, the high normal being 2.40, my vet said it looked like the beginning of kidney disease that we were dealing with and I freaked out.  I'm only in the last two or three months starting to calm down from that and see that Puff can probably be around for another 3 or 4 years and live a comfortable life.  She's 15.5 so I don't expect her to live another 10.  Of course her kidney's could also start to fail even more and you know where that's going.  So I don't know but I think she's early stage and stabilized.

2.1 is hardly a reason to get crazy.  It's proabably something to keep an eye on and be aware of.  Information and knowledge are definitely your best allies if she is starting to have kidney problems.

Sandy

Hi Kidz,

I got Sammys blood results back today.  I knew this would happen!  I was hopeing that when I read the report that it would be clear-cut whether or not the FiberSol was helping with his kidney #'s (which is why I didn't respond to you Susan).  I've been giving him 1 capsule everyday, for 1 week prior to the blood test.  I'm not sure if 1 week is lenghty enough for an 'experiment' either.

Sammy's BUN is still normal.  Actually it's dropped to 1 away from being *low*.??  His Creatinine rose .1 from 10/05/98, which is .8 above the normal high.  Just for comparison, on 6/17 Sammy's creatinine was 1.1 above normal and without FiberSol went to .7 above normal on 10/05. An improvement. See my confusion? Not to mention in that same time period my vet changed labs, so I have to do math every time I compare.

The only other things out of whack are his calcium (.2 high) which it always is, but I wonder if that's keeping his phosphorus values in check?  And his na/k ratio, even tho his sodium and potassium are normal.  Oh, and his teffies aren't doing to good.  My vet said we can go in and do a cleaning or (depending on his #'s--she hasn't seen them yet) give him periodic rounds of an antibiotic, to keep the infection away.  I don't think we'll be going the antibiotic route!

Regarding the FiberSol, my vet can't tell me if it helps for crf or not.  She did mention tho that food manufacturers are adding fermentable fiber to some of their special diets, and that beet pulp seemed to be the rave.

I'm awaiting your opinions!!

I was the holder for the bloodwork at the vets office yesterday, and (patting myself on the back) went smoothly!  Well, mostly smoothly<g>!

<<improvement. See my confusion? Not to mention in that same time period my vet changed labs, so I have to do math every time I compare.>>

Judy, as u know I purrsonally don't put a whole lotta stock in lab values. They are just one evaluative tool in determining the overall health of a kitty cat.  So, at this point, I really don't see much u can extrapolate from this test.  I told u to look into FiberSol b/c it had also helped Rudy, and that fermentable fiber thing I read at the Iams website intrigued me.  If u think it is helping him, then keep giving it.

But lab values are not 100% reliable.  After all, u have to think about how they came up w/ the so-called "average" values.  There are some possible statistical problems w/ this.  How many cats' blood did they test?  Over what period? What kind of health were those cats in? etc. Just look at Sammy holistically - as a whole and see what u see.

And paranoid mama that I am, I wanna caution all people w/ CRF cats - pls pls get their BP and hearts checked out regularly.  It was not the CRF that got Boo, but his heart:(  Even if a cat doesn't have heart probs when diagnosed w/ CRF, they can develop it so better to be aware of things that can develop than to be taken by surprise like I was.

<<The only other things out of whack are his calcium (.2 high) which it always is, but I wonder if that's keeping his phosphorus values in  check?  And his na/k ratio, even tho his sodium and potassium are normal.>>

K can be normal in the blood but lo in the tissues so u can still supplement but w/ far more caution.  Ask your vet what she thinks about maybe 1/2 tab of Tumil-K a day.

<<fiber to some of their special diets, and that beet pulp seemed to be the rave.>>

Been doing some research on this and beet pulp does seem to qualify as fermentable fiber.  Main thing is just how beet pulp is made and what is it gonna do for cats.  That part I haven't worked out yet.  Maybe call Iams and ask.  Which other manufacturers are using fermentable fiber for CRF diets; anyone know?

Glad to hear his blood draw went well, and the # are so great!  Judy, you oughta give yourself a big pat on the back for being such a good mom!!:))

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

hey all --

<< I just want to add that I personally feel that bonemeal is preferable to  supplementing with calcium because cats eat bones in nature for their  calcium and who knows what undiscovered elements are in bones that cats  need.>>

sharon, i agree, for the most part.... this *is* what they eat in nature. and i'm really leaning toward buying a grinder and just going that route (w/ a little extra organ meat cuz there isn't all the guts left in a broiler/fryer chicken...)

i am just concerned about the cats with compromised renal/bladder functions that are either in renal failure or predisposed to FUS/FLUTD. maybe by reducing the mineral content they can benefit....

i 'spoke' with a holistic vet i'm friendly with, and here's the gist of what she said:

"It sounds like a reasonable idea to try the calcium carbonate in lieu of bone meal.  However, it may or may not be true that high Mg & Phos in the diet contribute to crystals.  In fact, *all* the components of crystals are *always* present in the urine, but whether or not they precipitate into crystals depends solely on the pH of the urine, at least that's my understanding from the reading I've done."

so, from that, it looks like the big problem w/ sam and cats like him is pH. this vet swears by grainless for cats, but on another list, people are reporting success in eliminating UTI's in _d*gs_ by adding soaked rolled oats to the food. rationale being that soaked oats (not cooked) are acidic and help lower pH, whereas most cooked grains are alkaline....

so more stuff to think about. i may just give it a shot with sam, but i'm gonna get my hands on some pH strips first and test his urine a few times daily to get an idea of where his normal pH is first.

Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

Moonpadler@ wrote:
<<Are there any early signs that I can be looking for to see if he has suffered  any kidney disease (or anything else that excess drinking could indicate)?>>

Hi again,

Sammy was diagnosed with crf in June of '97.  Just by looking at him ya can't tell he's sick.  He hardly ever drinks water.  Now Rudy, on the other hand, drinks an entire bowl of water at nite.  About 2 bowls a day.  Rudy was diagnosed with crf in June of '98, Rudy also has (probable) IBD, and is 18ish.  If you suspect something wrong, I would suggest taking a urine sample in.  They don't need a sterile sample. Kidney disease is not detected until 75% of the kidneys aren't functioning.  Kidney disease shows up on a urine test, before is does on a blood test.  Excessive thirst is also a symptom of diabetes.

In a message dated 2/6/99 1:15:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, Moonpadler@ writes:
<< While we're on the subject, just what IS a *normal* healthy intake of water  for a cat.  Now there's a topic I haven't seen yet..... Anyone?  >>

Jillian,

I hope the others will agree that the eqivalent of combined clumps of litter that if put int a measuring cup would come up about 1/2 way (4oz or so?) It also depends on how much water is in the food. If you add raw veggies etc, you'd get more. maybe 6oz max. I hope everyone agrees. Weejie doesn't void the exact same amt every day. Some days may only be 3 oz. The same way I go more on some days and less on others.

Emily

Hi Kidz,

I'm glad this topic of phosphate binders has come back up.

I'm gonna have to re-question my vet about this, cuz it sure does seem logical that cal would absorb the phos.  BUT, it has to be done in the tummy, before the foodies are digested (so why not *in* the food?).  I came across a product called Renagel.  It's doesn't contain cal or aluminum, but it's not a natural either.  It's a polysomething, that is beyond my comprehension.
http://www.geltex.com/PressReleases/pr110298.html

I'm very interested if anyone figures this out!  Hey where's Dr. Wynn???

Hi Kidz,

Renee wrote:
<< Has anyone used Anitra Frazier's kidney diet?>>

Yup.  Have been making it, and occasionally Pitcairns recipe since '97.

<< I just went to the store to purchase the baby food creamed corn.>>

Why do you want to use the creamed corn?  I think the barley is a better choice.  I use organic barley flakes.  Ya gotta watch baby food stuff, cuz there might be onion or added phosphates.

<< Any comments, suggestions, experience?>>

Eat the canned corn yourself ;)  Use only fresh veggies, organic if possible.  Only use distilled water in preparation, and the water bowl. If you add butter, make sure it's unsalted. And IMO, skip the Vita-Mineral mix--but you'll have to figure out the cal:phos yourself. Oh and my latest discovery...watch for decreases in kitty's albumin level (eventho it may be inrange), cuz I think the recipe is a bit short on protein.

Renee,

You don't have to buy baby food corn.  That crap is totally overprocessed. How people can feed their human brats that is beyond me.  Just get real corn and use that instead.  You can just run it thru a blender to break down the cell walls and make it more digestible for kitty.  I assume your kitty isn't allergic to corn, correct?  B/c corn is a big time allergen for cats.

I don't have a very hi opinion of Frazier when it comes to nutrition, and the kidney diet in particular is real iffy.  Like Judy cautioned, w/ that lo protein %, lo albumin could become a problem as well.

heck, even Hills kidney diet recipe is better than what u see in some holistic nutrition books!  How sad is that?! BTW, anyone know if the new Strombeck book has a kidney recipe in there?  He recommends cooked meat, right?  So then that should be a good option for people who don't wanna feed their CRF kitties a raw diet.

Oh one other thing - the Vita-Mix might not be a good idea either if kitty is allergic to brewer's yeast, and/or if you are worried about phos.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

SandyC7606@ wrote:
<< Vick - I'm adding calcium lactate to Puff's meals to balance the phosphorus.  It this the same thing as using it as a phosphorus binder?>>

Judy checked w/ her vet about this cuz I too wanted to be ready for when Boo's Phos levels got too hi (they stayed normal).  Judy's vet told her this was not the best way to go.

This does seem bass ackawards actually b/c what happens is that the Phos can't be excreted by the kidneys so it leaches calcium from the bones. A lot of CRF cats will thus have hi Phos and lo Cal levels show up on their blood tests.  And some people add Cal to their diet to counteract the hi Phos.  But U can only take this logic so far...does this make sense?

Dunno if I'd go w/ additional calcium supplementation just to balance the Phos.  In Vick's cat's case, she feels bonemeal is too hi in Mag and Phos so she is switching to Cal Carb instead to see if it helps w/ the FLUTD.

A phos binder is quite different.  What happens there is u give an aluminum-based gel *with* food so that the Phos in the food binds w/ the gel and gets excreted via the stool.  This way the kidneys do not have to process the Phos (which they are already having trouble doing) and it doesn't enter the bloodstream and cause the calcium leaching problem.

Hope I didn't end up confusing anyone.  Obviously I'm not a vet so this is just a layperson's understanding of how all this works.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

Hi Kidz,

Sandy A. wrote:
<< Oh one other thing - the Vita-Mix might not be a good idea either if kitty  is allergic to brewer's yeast, and/or if you are worried about phos.>>

Plus, it isn't correcting the cal:phos in her recipes properly!

[email protected] wrote:
<< After all this discussion about calcium/phos ratio and  bone meal, I'm sure my ratio is off but don't know quite what to do about it.>>

Lee I figure ours out on paper for every batch.  I use the USDA site for reference.   http://www.rahul.net/cgi-bin/fatfree/usda/usda.cgi

On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Judy wrote:
<< What would be a natural alternative to Basalgel or Amphogel?>>

I don't know of any offhand, but I haven't studied this intensely.  I would not consider Basalgel or Amphogel to be toxic or problematic, so I haven't looked for alternatives.

Susan G. Wynn, DVM CVA

Jillian -- So glad she has found you to talk to about this.   I am on my second crf kitty.   His BUN was 46.5 and creatinine 3.56 last checkup and I feed him a combination of foods including raw meat, raw liver, baby food mixture.    I also give him a kidney glandular and extra Vitamin C (hidden in Baby food meat) as a treat before bed each night.   He seems to be doing fine on this regimen.

He did have a UTI and that is how we caught the early crf.   The UTI cleared up with 21 days of amoxicillin.   Be sure and check with your friend that 21 days of an antibiotic were given because UTIs are notorious to come back even worse if less antibiotics are given.   This could be her problem.

There are also two kinds of kidney disease - chronic (crf) and acute (arf).   If the kidneys are compromised by an infection, it could be acute if it is treated and cleared up and the kidney function is not lost.    If the kidney function is lost (can't ever get it back) than they are in the chronic stage and have crf.

As far as food is concerned there is a big controversy over whether low protein amounts in food is really good for these kitties.    Some vets are now on the fence on this issue, too.   After losing Gumby last year to crf, this time with Slick, I am not feeding that Hills and Purina crap (excuse my french).   At least not at this stage of the game.    I am buying the very, very best foods with the lowest phosphorus contents I can find and feeding him all the raw meat he will eat (which isn't a lot, but he's a small eater).

I have a spreadsheet of foods that I started a year ago that lists the dry-matter analysis for protein, phosphorus, sodium and fat.    You might want to print this out for her so she has some backup if she has a problem with raw food.   I've also included some baby food on it because I mix this with my raw meat.   It is off my kitty web pages at :

http://personalweb.edge.net/~boles/canfood.htm    and also  dryfood.htm

There have also been some recipes posted for homemade food for kidney patients in the new book "Home-Prepared Dog & Cat diets", by Dr. Donald R. Strombeck.   A few have been posted on the crf list......

Get more information from her -- BUN, creatinine, phosphorus, potassium and HCT(PCV) levels from the latest blood test.   History of urinary problems or infections.    She can also join the crf list if she has a computer.    Hope this helps some....

Moonpadler@ wrote:

<<OK I have a dumb question.  A friend has a kitty with "kidney disease" & she  wants to come over & pick my brains about homemade diets & holistic care,  etc.  All I know so far is that her kitty's been losing weight; was on 2  different rounds of antibiotics which for some reason didn't work for him,  and has been given a third which she's reluctant to even start on.  I've
asked her to let me know exactly what his diagnosis is, etc.

So here's the question:   Does kidney disease automatically mean CRF?   So  far I'm pretty lacking in knowledge about CRF - not that it hasn't been discussed in detail here; I just don't have the time I'd like to devote to  reading ALL the posts! <G>.   I'm assume tho that the basic diet I feed  (mostly raw chicken) would be inappropriate for any kidney-challenged kitty,  CRF or otherwise, because of the protein content.

I'll have more questions, I'm sure, when I get the details from my friend,  but would appreciate knowing if there is a more minor form of kidney disease  before I start immersing myself in CRF education.>>

Noreen
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