I was so touched by the support from folks on this list that I burst into tears - I'm doing it a lot these days.

At $25 a pop for fluids every day, I am forced to muster up all the courage I have and learn to do it myself.  Yesterday I had them show me the bag, etc.  Today I watched the tech do it.  She wanted me to put the needle in but I just couldn't do that yet.  Baranof was very good for her.

That is the least of my worries. They don't really know what's wrong. Besides kidney failure he also has a flare-up of an allergy that makes him pull all his fur out.  The only thing that worked last time was prednisone and antibiotics.  Of course, the prednisone is a problem now so we're trying antihistamines.  Sigh.

In addition, he may have liver problems althought he blood tests don't really show anything there.

They want me to go to an internist, have ultrasound (and shave his fur off - sob) and do biopsies.  I just don't know what to do.  I only have $500 on credit cards left.  I don't think that will cover all of that. Also I don't have transportation except the bus and my feet.  The current vet is literally around the corner from my house.

So next week I will for sure have to do the fluids, just for cost's sake.

What can you tell me about bubbles - is running some fluid out the line through the needle adequate?  I would just die if I didn't do it right.

  Kaylen

hey all-

<<At $25 a pop for fluids every day, I am forced to muster up all the  courage I have and learn to do it myself.  Yesterday I had them show  me the bag, etc.  Today I watched the tech do it.  She wanted me  to put the needle in but I just couldn't do that yet.  Baranof was very  good for her.>>

if he's good about, you should have no trouble :) i think the worst part is getting past your own issues about it!! that site that sue posted about sub-q fluids was awesome! http://members.aol.com/aquila111/subq/

<< That is the least of my worries. They don't really know what's wrong.  Besides kidney failure he also has a flare-up of an allergy that makes him pull all his fur out.  The only thing that worked last time was  prednisone and antibiotics.  Of course, the prednisone is a problem  now so we're trying antihistamines.  Sigh.>>

what is baranof eating? ooo... the antihistamines should increase his appetite, i think, so maybe you can work some raw food into his diet... maybe on a raw meat and veggie diet the allergies would subside...

<<In addition, he may have liver problems although he blood tests don't really show anything there.>>

milk thistle will help the liver. i gave sam 1 capsule a day when he was having liver problems and pancreatitis... now i feed him extra raw liver since i can't ever remember to add supplements to their food... anyone better at dosages than me?

<<They want me to go to an internist, have ultrasound (and shave his  fur off - sob) and do biopsies.  I just don't know what to do.  I only have $500 on credit cards left.  I don't think that will cover all of  that.>>

kaylen, i hear ya -- sam almost wiped me out last january... we did an ultrasound, which helped rule out cancer, obstruction and gallstones, but didn't provide much help... also had a needle biopsy done. it didn't give us anything to go on - and sam got shaved, too :( but the fur grows back really fast... have you had any x-rays done? talk to your vet about the money - the x-ray would show any enlargement or tumors, and if you have bloodwork, they DID go to college to figure this stuff out!!

i think leah asked for numbers, and i second the request -- i'd like to see what the liver values are, too.

what state are you in? i know great vets in colorado, florida and minnesota...

<< Also I don't have transportation except the bus and my feet.  The current vet is literally around the corner from my house.>>

like i said - talk to them. tell them your situation, and ask for options... if the x-rays show an enlarged liver, an ultrasound and
biopsy may be necessary... but if it looks normal... if they're concerned about his gall bladder, they can do a bile acid test -
technically this should be done before and after eating but a real problem will show at any time. ask them to call the lab and see if they still have the blood, and maybe you can avoid another blood draw.

<<So next week I will for sure have to do the fluids, just for cost's sake.  What can you tell me about bubbles - is running some fluid out the  line through the needle adequate?  I would just die if I didn't do it right.>>

if it makes you feel better, run the line a little. but sub-q, bubbles won't hurt. if you were doing an IV, then they could cause problems, but not as a sub-q.

keep us posted, and get us some numbers!  i think we all love doing the research :)

hugs from me, soft purrs and healing headbutts from the oh-so-bratty ones.

--
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

Vick wrote:
<<kaylen, i hear ya -- sam almost wiped me out last january... we did an ultrasound, which helped rule out cancer, obstruction and gallstones, but didn't provide much help... also had a needle biopsy done. it didn't give us anything to go on - and sam got shaved, too :( but the fur grows back really fast... have you had any x-rays done? talk to your vet about the money - the x-ray would show any enlargement or tumors, and if you have bloodwork, they DID go to college to figure this stuff out!!>>

Unfortunately x-ray's will NOT show cysts on the kidney and liver and suspect that is why the vet has recommended ultrasound.     There are several ultrasound "clinics" going on around the country checking for PKD (polycystic kidney disease) where you can get an ultrasound by a qualified radiologist for around $25.  If you will follow the links from the URL below, you will find upcoming clinics and list of qualified radiologists;AND A  link to CRF website with tons of info on kidney problems/support.

http://www.indyweb.net/~lucky/Stats.html

I'm a persian breeder and like a lot of persian breeders, we've recently discovered PKD.  40% of the cats being tested are affected.  Some will live a normal life but others, including two of mine will die young. This is a preventable genetic problem btw and there have been relatively few non-persians tested to date.   But if there is any persian behind these cats, Ultrasound is almost mandatory when kidney problems start. PKD supposedly cannot be cured.  We've been told antibiotics will not penetrate these cysts and they increase in size with time and stress or whatever.  At some point, they will consume the kidney and the cat will go into kidney failure.

HOWEVER, I joined this list along with a couple of others hoping for some ideas/suggestions on maintaining these cats and/or improving their life span inspite of the dismal prospects for a severely affected cat. Within the last couple of weeks there has been an un-verified (?) report that potassium citrate/citric acid has reduced the size of cysts in rats.  This has tremendous potential for both humans and our cats if this is accurate.

POTASSIUM CITRATE/CITRIC ACID INTAKE IMPROVES KIDNEY STRUCTURE AND FUNCTION IN RATS WITH AUTOSOMAL DOMINANT POLYCYSTIC KIDNEY DISEASE

The URL for one of these  reports is http://www.asn-online.com/news/july1-98.html

Another thread that got started related to seasilver.  The first of that thread appears below: "I hapen to know someone personally that was on dialisis for years and they started drinking the SeaSilver twice a day and are now off dialisis".
The URL for SeaSilver is http://WWW.Seasilver.com/index.htm

I have no knowledge about either of these products or if they will work or help control /relieve renal failure or renal failure due to cysts. Can forward either of these full posts to anyone interested but would sure like some input on whether or not any of you have tried either of these with CRF.   Note:  the gal who posted the original note on seasilver has now become a distributor.

wordlady@ writes
<<Hi Ahaphia That's really an interesting result. Just for my clarification, when you say only muscle meat do you mean no organ meats?>>
 in re:
<<Vet & I believe that the high CPK was do to the intake of only muscle meat, thereby affecting the CPK which tests muscle trauma, any comments anyone?>>

Why is it that I always seem to find the posts about CPK even when it isn't in the header??!  It is absolutely NOT the case that the CPK level could be affected by a high intake of muscle meat.  CPK is an enzyme - enzymes are proteins - proteins taken by mouth are broken down in the digestive tract into their constituent amino acids. So no ingested protein can get into the bloodstream intact.

REasons for an elevated CPK are:  myocardial infarction,  muscle trauma including heavy exercise,  muscular dystrophy or muscle disease due to other causes.

What COULD be affected by a high intake of muscle meat is the creatinine level  (one of the kidney function tests).  Muscle meat contains large amounts of creatine,  which is broken down by CPK (creatine phosphokinase) to creatinine,  which is excreted by the kidneys.

Perhaps others (Dr. Wynn maybe) would also like to comment on this,  I am an-ex clinical biochemist (human medicine) and am pretty rusty on my knowledge of many things!

Naomi
mailto:njjohnson@

Hi all,

I just wanted to write in to express support to everyone, esp those of u dealing w/ kidney problems in your cats.  Some ramblings follow:

Kaylen - I feel for ya.  I hear ya on the $ issue too - we spent $2,400 on just Tashie's emergency room and reg vet visits 2 yrs ago.  I'm a lil unclear on why the additional testing is needed.  My feeling is this - do a cost-benefit analysis and decide just what u will learn from any testing e.g. ultrasound, biopsy (don't they have to put a kitty under to do that?).  How will your treatment options differ after u learn the results of any testing?

What I'm trying to get at here is that if Baranof's blood values indicate eleveated BUN, creat, phos, sodium, and maybe lo potassium etc., then u know his kidneys are compromised.  CRF is often an umbrella term for various kidney problems, but the end result is the same - the kidney function is lost.  What more will u know w/ the tests - that there are cysts?  that the kidneys are shrunken or overly large and bumpy? To what end?  u will be several 100 dollars poorer but in the final analysis, what will u do differently to treat your kitty?   I am all for testing and diagnostics usually when I need to know just what is wrong so I can
treat my kitty but in this case, I dunno.  Course YMMV so don't let me stop ya.

So, my advice (and keep in mind that I am not a vet, just a momcat who has lost 2 cats to this disease, and researched this topic at great length) to u, to Debbie regarding Face, and all other people whose cats have CRF is this:

• feed a hi quality diet w/ no dyes, preservatives, by-products and other such junk.
•  squirt a few syringes of water into their mouth daily (I used herbs as well so the herbal liquid did double duty)
• if your vet feels subqs will help, consider them in moderation.
• supplement their diet (or give by mouth if they won't accept in food) w/ Vit C - 250mg a day of calcium ascorbate, vit b complex and vit B12 (to stimulate appetite), 1 softgel of Vit A and E once a week, and the herb Dandelion.  Dandelion is a wonderful tonic which is hi in potassium and Mother Natures most fantastic diuretic.  I used to brew it for Booey but u can get it in tincture (dilute it 1:1 or even 2:1 and add warm water if concerned about alcohol) or capsule form.

Above all, always be positive in front of your cat for s/he will sense it otherwise and it will get them down.  U want your CRF cat to always feel s/he is your #1 priority in life (mine was so it wasn't hard) and s/he must have a haven where they can go hang out so the other cats don't bother them.  Give them their special heated bed or in Boo's case, he loved cardboard boxes during the day, and a special English fleece (he was an Anglophile like his mummy and daddy are:) bed at nite.  Their life should be stress-free and filled w/ love every second of every day (not that other cats' shouldn't but a sick cat is even more important), a real zen-like existence to be sure for u never really know how long Bastet will give u w/ any cat.

As for subqs, here's my $0.02 based on our experiences w/ it in Tasha's case (could not give 'em to Booey b/c of his cardiomyopathy):

• 1. Get your vet to write a prescription for subqs, and order them from Valley Vet or KV Vet supply - http://www.kvvet.com    (that's 2 vs)  W/ a $40+ order, S&H is free.  They also have needles and the rest of the set-up.  My vet is not money-grubbing, so she cut me a deal on it, and i never dealt w/ KV and gang but if T had lived longer, I might have due to the cost.
• 2. Have your vet show u how to do the subqs.  My vet was very nice in this regard and John and I had no trouble doing it on our own thanks to her demonstration.  Here's how we did it:
• John knelt over T holding her between his legs w/ her back to him
• Meanwhile I had heated the fluid bag in a sink of hot water.  I always put in a new needle each time (no point taking chances w/ infection)
• I ran the fluid so if there was any cold fluid, it would make its way out of the line.  I ran it over my hand to ensure it was warm (cats have higher body temps so the fluid has to be warm or it is very uncomfortable for them)
• John then made a tent of sorts by folding the skin on the back of her neck area
• He put the needle thru this tent at an angle from top (move to a slightly diff spot each time so as not to develop scar tissue)
• Make sure the fluid is going in, and when u reach the desired amount e.g 100ml or whatever, take the needle out, and hold the area where the needle went in gently or else fluid can squirt back out sometimes.

A caution about the needles - we tried #18 - #22 all of 'em at one time or another to see which was better for Tashie.  The larger the #, the finer the needle, hence less uncomfortable.  But then it takes longer to administer the fluids.  So u'll have to see for yourself which is the better option for you and your cat.  Let's face it - subqs are invasive as defined by allo medicine; the skin is pierced after all.  So I can see why someone dedicated to non-invasive procedures would have probs w/ this.  I struggled w/ this issue too.

BTW, subqs, force feedings, and other such types of care are not for everyone.  And the wonderful vet on the CRF list has checked in on this issue from time to time saying that while subqs might mean lower #s for BUN and Creat on the blood tests (do the math - more liquid in the body) they *may* stress the kidneys to where the net effect may not be all on the + side of the column.  If someone can't give subqs for whatever reason, pls don't beat yourself up over it.  subqs didn't help my first cat, and I don't think they would have my 2nd cat even if I could have given 'em so I'm not 100% convinced yet about them.  It is one of many tools we have in the arsenal so use it if it works for your cat, is what I'm trying to say here.

It is a huge commitment, and having spent the last 2 yrs of my life caring for terminally ill cats, I'll tell u this, it ain't easy but would
I do it again? U bet your bippy!  In a heartbeat, I would!  I never for one second felt that the time and effort i put into it was a drag.  If I had a choice between having Booey in my life (as long as he was not in pain or anything like that, obviously) or not, no question which one I'd pick.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats - Hunny Bunny, Missy,
Pigpen, plus Booey and Tasha (in spirit)

<<For kidney disease, herbal formulas and teas using juniper berries,  uvaursi leaves, corn silk, among others, are the upmost  best. Both humans and>>

Mary and other herb experts can confirm this I hope.  But what lil I know - every herb book I have read sez no juniper berries for people w/ compromised kidney function.  Juniper irritates the kidneys, and that's sorta ok short-term for people who are healthy but I wouldn't even consider it for a cat w/ CRF.  Nuh-uh.  Ditto for Uva Ursi.

Cornsilk, yes b/c it is soothing to the urinary tract.  So are Marshmallow and Slippery Elm.

<<already got kidney disease. By the way, giving your cat a small cut  piece of organic garlic put into the back of the cat's throat regularly will do wonders for the health of the cat.>>

I guess a small amount should be ok.  Dunno what the final verdict is on cats and garlic and the whole Heinz body anemia business.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats who won't eat their food w/o some garlic in it

<< Mary and other herb experts can confirm this I hope.  But what lil I know - - every herb book I have read sez no juniper berries for people w/  compromised kidney function.  Juniper irritates the kidneys, and that's  sorta ok short-term for people who are healthy but I wouldn't even  consider it for a cat w/ CRF.  Nuh-uh.  Ditto for Uva Ursi.>>

Hi

Sandy's right, the volatile oils can be too irritating to the kidneys if there's already damage. If the tissue is disintegrating, then, right, it IS a no-no.
--
Mary Wulff-Tilford,DiHom;Herbalist,AHG

<<The vet wanted to have Baranof in the hospital for 3 days doing fluids with "no guarantee" .  Do you think it is worthwhile?>>

Depends.  Usually when a cat is first diagnosed w/ kidney failure, vets give IV (as opposed to subcutaneous) fluids to flush out the toxins.  This is rough on the cat but I suppose it sorta works b/c it gets them out of crisis mode.  My vet (allo) is very opposed to IV fluids and not a big fan of subqs either.  I asked her many times about giving them to Boo and in his case, I could definitely understand why she was so against it.

Anyway, after the IV fluids initially, some vets will suggest giving subqs at home.  At the emergency hospital where I took Tashie, the vets were divided - 1/2 were real proponents of subqs whereas the other 1/2 didn't rely on subqs at all (in their regular practice) so looks like there are 2 schools of thought on this.  Be that as it may, there are never any "guarantees" anyhow, are there?:(

<<Wish me luck as I have to do his first at-home fluids today in a couple of hours. I'm going to heat up the bathroom with the
space heater.>>

Good idea.  Make it as pleasant as possible an event as u can w/ placing him on a warm towel, treats, lots of soft cooing etc.

One other thing I just thought of - hang the bag of subqs from a hanger on a hook above kitty level so the fluid flows more easily. Forgot to include that yesterday.

<<Do you think wrapping the bag in a heating pad would work to heat up the fluid? >>

I doubt it would warm it enough.  Yesterday I was in a lot of pain and put my heating pad on hi, and it barely felt warm against my skin.  I'd just fill up the sink w/ hot water, and soak it for a few mins.

Hope the first subq went/goes well.  Not to worry tho; first time is really tough but it does get easier.  Some cats actually like the subqs so u never know, your kitty may be one of them:)

As someone whose been there, do what I tried hard to do too - stay focused, positive, and in the moment.

All our best.

Sandy and the mountain cats

<<hey deb-

We've caught it early, but it looks like my old man, Face, is going into  renal failure.  He's down about 4oz in weight.  I was going to look up  some kidney stuff and start it anyway, because I had a feeling.  I've got  Frazier's book, Pitcairn's and Stein's.  Anyone know anything else?  We  took the blood today, I'll have the numbers tomorrow, but this can't wait.

<< i think leah has had success with kidney glandulars... fortunately, this is not my area of expertise... i think frazier has some good ideas, tho. there is continuing debate about protein levels, and i think the research has shown that lowering protein only affects the BUN, which means the cat feels a little better, but it's not helping stop the progression of the disease.>>

I have had success with kidney glandulars, too.  Cytozyme KV and Renal Plus (haven't read the label on that, though).  Aldonza has been on them for ten months.  Her kidney disease is under control now.  She doesn't even look sick and she was really in a bad way.  Also, B12 injected into lactated ringers (sub-  q's) has improved her energy level immensely.  Sublingual B12 has also improved her appetite as well.  Things were touch and go for awhile, and I did forcefeed as needed, but it's been months since I had to do that.  Other things have helped as well.  I just posted her holistic regimen in the previous holisticat digest.  You might want to check it out.  Of course, the earlier the kidney disease is treated, the more success you will have.

Hope this helps.

Betty

<<It is 2:00 a.m. and Baranof is sitting on the chair next to my  computer. A small sign of encouragement.>>

That's great Kaylen!  He must be feeling better, good boy.

<<Some of you have asked about T4.  He doesn't exhibit classic hyperthyroid symptoms so we decided to delay that test.  His
heart rate is normal.  He does NOT have a ravenous appetite.  He has lost weight though. His fur is dry.  He is anemic.  He drinks
and pees a lot (when not on fluids - he doesn't drink so much while on fluids). Does it sound like a T4 (free T4??) should be done?>>

I always had it included as part of the CBC just in case.  There is that other test that's more complicated but I dunno what it's called.  It is  possible to have a disease and now exhibit the classic symptoms.  For now, since kidney function definitely seems to be compromised, I'd concentrate on getting him to feel better.  Kathy's right about his blood values - if potassium is normal and so is Phosphorous, then that's a good sign b/c the former tends to be excreted thru the urine so gets on the lo side (U can supplement w/ K for that), and the latter tends to get hi as time goes by.  So for now, not bad at all.  Keep your chin up. Sounds
like Baranof is doing that too:)

Hang in there.  We are all here sending Baranof healing vibes.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

Hello Everyone,

My name is Dawn.  Sidney is my 16 1/2 yr. who has CRF.  I found out in Dec. 98 thru a urine test.  I have never has bloodwork done because when they shaved his neck and tried to stick him he freaked and tore the vets hand open with his claws.  I don't plan on having it done, so I really am treating the cat not the numbers.

He still has a good appetite but hates the food.  Everyday it's a problem finding a combo he will eat. I have tries Hill's k/d, Purina and Waltham's (he really hates this one) BTW Waltham's has only meat by-products and chicken by-products in ingredients, no meat.  I am thinking of trying a homemade food.  Any indeas on recipes would be greatly appreciated.

I spoke with a holistic vet.  She suggests homemade food or Petgaurd brand. Can anyone tell me about Renafood and how it helps the cat.   She wants me to give him Vita Mineral Mix.  Someone on the CRF list told me that it was high in Phos. What vitamins can I use? Are they chewable or liquid.  He is hard to pill.  What about calcium and b-vitamins, how do you give those?
Can anyone tell me of their cat's experience with Arsenicum treatment?  It scares me. Why is there no set dosage?  She wants to give 30c , doesn't matter how many crystals I get down him. How will this help him..Read a paper that a cat should be watched by a vet after this treatment.

Sorry for so many questions, Vets aren't too helpful..

Dawn R wrote:
<< I would like to know if there is something I can give Sidney to help flush  the toxins out of  his kidneys?  The vet suggests sub-q's but any treatment  stresses him.  He feels that he is being finicky because of build up.  He  is wanting Monkey Face's food and will eat vegetables.  This makes me think the vet is wrong, but not sure.  Will Renafood help with this?>>

What is Monkey Face eating?  I say let Sidney eats what he wants.  Anyone whose CRF cat is still eating, should thank their lucky stars cuz a lot of CRF cats lose all interest in food, period.

I dunno just how glandulars work so can't say if it will help w/ toxins and appetite.  Tricia and Leah have used this for their CRF cats but I feel bad that I never tried it for Booey.

I dunno if it gets rid of toxins, per se, but I am a huge fan of the herb dandelion for flushing the kidneys out (makes sense to me that it would flush out toxins actually but a herbalist would know for sure whereas I'm only guessing).

Who knows what good stuff e.g. electrolytes are flushed out w/ the bad when subqs are administered esp on a regular basis.  In light of that, i feel dandelion w/ its hi k levels and all the other good support stuff in it, is the single best herb to give a cat in kidney failure.

If I were u, I'd let Sidney eat any good quality food (make sure it also has organ meat, not just muscle meat) and add some psyllium (w/ water) to his food as well as either dandelion tincture or capsule.

Mary W-T's (nci) co makes a great herbal tonic called Senior Blend which contains all the herbs that support various organs in the body.  U can check it out at this website: http://www.petsage.com

Alfalfa is a great herb as is marshmallow.  Both of these are also in the Senior Blend.  When my cats get a bit older, I'm going to start giving this to them on a fairly regular basis.

Sandy, owned and operated by the poor unsuspecting mountain lions

hey all, kaylen --

<<They want to do the 3-day IV fluids in the hospital, and despite what the animal communicator said, I have agreed as I don't know what else  to do.>>

sometimes IV fluids can really help. my sam spent 3-4 days and nights on them when he had all his liver and pancreas crap last year, and he probably wouldn't have made it without it. i dunno what your situation is, but i know after the 4th day, my vet would hydrate sam via IV all day then  load him up w/ 200 cc's of ringers sub-q before i took him home over nite. they'd hook him back up in the a.m.

perhaps you could do the same for baranof? if he's the kind of cat that wouldn't mess with the iv line if they left it in, it may be better for him. that way you could give him his herbs and good stuff at night, too... and i imagine he'll eat a lot better at home, too. most cats won't eat their first night or two in the hospital, and w/ CRF kitties, that's bad news. of course, they'll probably
force-feed him some canned kidney diet, so he won't starve....

<< And yes, she wrote a Prescription.>>

is that for the fluids?

<<I have Monday  off and will take him in that morning, drive myself nuts all day and visit him later.  How I will get through 3 days and nights I  do not know - in 15 years we have only been apart that long for two times.  He will be physically half a block away but it will seem like the eternal void.>>

kaylen, i worked at the office sam was hospitalized at. when we would leave at night and shut the lights off, it killed me to leave my boy... i had this irrational fear that he'd die or something, and he'd be alone.... after a few days of that, dr b saw how much better sam was when i was around. i went in early and took him out w/ his little IV pump and set him in the window in the back office and pet him and groomed him. when she saw him like that, she knew she had to send him home at night. but the first 3 nights, he stayed 24 hours a day, and that's what saved him. as horrible as it was, it saved his life. sam is still considered a miracle kitty (one of his liver values was over 4000 when the normal range was 10-100) at that office :)

<<I fear they are not holding out much hope for him.  I have to be strong. I will see what I can do for him alternatively after that.>>

because, conventionally, there is so little vets can do w/ advanced cases of CRF, they never hold out much hope. don't take it personally, they just know their hands are pretty well tied, and they see fluids and force-feeding as postponing the inevitable. but sandy knows that a grim prognosis isn't all it's cracked up to be, and so do i. keep yourself in charge, and keep your thoughts positive -- much easier said than done, i know. but you hafta do it :)

<<Please pray for Baranof and yes, I still have to do fluids at home until then - I just got a break today.>>

prayers, vibes, and healing head butts are coming baranof's way from me and the gang.

--
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel