Arguments against Veganism II

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Opening statement by Sir Stabsalot:

http://www.bancruelfarms.org/meatrix/

I gave money to this group before. This is a new animation they released that does a very good job. It presents their point without having to intimidate you like so many other animal rights groups do. Not that people should only have non-confrontational opinions presented to them, but I think the way that groups like the ALF and sometimes PETA come out on the attack and practically demand castration for anyone who eats meat is not helping their cause but is actually hurting it. Their are a lot of important animal rights issues that need to be addressed but how it's handled from an animal rights support side is misguided. That's why it's so nice to see something like this and that's why I'm glad to have supported this group.

And it's all matrix-y. And it might earn me more points with jazmella...

Jazmella wrote:

Grr, I hate people.

Sevendarks wrote:

The vegetarians u run into must be real dumbasses.

Our bodies are very well designed for we do eat. Plant matter suplemented by animal protein.

1) canines. If we were supposed to be vegetarians, we wouldnt have canines. Their only real use is to tear flesh.

2) Binocular vision. Predators need stereoscopic vision(e.g. depth perception) so they can catch their prey. When is the last time a turnip ran away from anybody? Look at differant animals and pay attention to their eye placement. look at a deer's eyes and look at your dog's. The deer only needs to see movement and run away from it. Eyes on the side of its head, can see movement from all around.

3) Lack of multiple stomachs. Very usefull if u want to extract protein from many types of plant matter in an effective matter.

4) Relatively short digestive tract. Only makes sense if we supplement our diet with easily extracted animal protein.

Besides, meat tastes good. It wouldn't if we werent meant to eat it.

I concur. And I'm going to add more to your line of reasoning, Darks:

Cooking our food

If we're going to argue about what man was designed to eat, then let me point out that in the beginning man did not have fire. Anything that he ate had to be raw. Now as you all know, the cell walls of a plant are composed of cellulose -- which man is not equipped to digest. As Darks pointed out, we don't have the multiple stomachs and the short digestive tract -- okay, rabbits don't have multiple stomachs either, but they eat their own faeces so that they can have access to the faecal bacteria that digest cellulose -- but even more importantly, we do not have the bacteria to digest the cellulose for us (what, you think cows can do it all by themselves?) -- I mean, was there ever any report of scientists isolating Prevotella ruminicola or Fibrobacter from the human gut? SO for us to even extract any quantity at all of usable nutrients from a plant, we have to COOK it well, to break down the cellulose walls. If ancient man had lived entirely on a diet of raw plants, yeah sure, he'd really have no problems with constipation, on account of the roughage, but he'd also be dead.

Nutrients

If mankind had been designed to eat plants, he would have either evolved a biochemical system to synthesise all the vitamin B-12 and cholesterol he needed, as he wouldn't have been able to derive either from plants, or he would have evolved so that these two do not play a crucial role in his life. (I would like to point out that despite the common misconceptions that cholesterol=bad=heart attack, the fact is that we need cholesterol to make hormones) But despite all the reputable medical journals I have trawled through, I have never found any scientific data that points to mankind being able to extract B-12 from plant sources. Hmm, maybe I have not read all of the million or so different journals around? Surely Scientific American or Nature would have given it a mention. I should also point out here that vitamin B-12 deficiency leads to NEURODEGENERACY. I'd say this implies something, but I am much too polite.

The stomach and cellulose matter

Let's go back to the digestive tract issue, shall we? What is the most glaring difference between the stomach of a human or carnivore and that of a herbivore? The fact that the carnivore's stomach empties after roughly 3 hours, whereas the herbivore's stomach never empties. Digestion of cellulose is a time and energy-consuming process, friends (and pity the microbes doing it, because they're much worse off than those who digest meat -- there's not much energy profit for them) -- you would need plenty of time for the stuff to sit there and ferment. Imagine going around with your stomach perpetually full of vegetables! I imagine it would make a serious dent in our lifestyles -- no swimming or running on a full stomach for you!

Oh yes, and there's also the fact that there are no bacteria in the stomach of a carnivore! The carnivore's stomach is well-lined, and for good reason too: the incredibly strong stomach acid would tear through it otherwise. We're talking about hydrochloric acid at pH 1.5 or so. The only bacteria that's actually been shown to survive these hostile conditions in the human stomach is Helicobacter pylori -- incidentally the bacteria that causes peptic ulcers. (nope, that bacteria's no help to us) The acid creates a condition suitable for the functioning of the enzyme pepsin... but that's another story. The important thing is that the stomach is so inhospitable to microbial growth that if there were to be microbes capable of digesting cellulose in our digestive tract, they would all be concentrated in our intestines. Which would make no sense to have the stomach with the acid in the first place. Besides which, I should point out that the bacteria found in our intestines are putrefactive ones (ie. they putrefy the matter that goes through) and not fermentative ones (um, note: we don't have alcohols as a digestive by-product).

One last note: Go and dig up the metabolic pathways, enzymes and gastrointestinal data on humans, carnivores and omnivores, and compare them on your own. I'd discuss all of them here, but I am not writing a textbook on comparative metabolism.

To those who abhor meat: Really, people, I have nothing against your wanting to eat vegetables and avoiding meat and all, but to vehemently argue that we were built for it is just pointless. Give it a rest, eh?

sevendarks wrote:

kfarlander,

Nicely done!!!

I wish I knew enough about the subject to say more. But a well reasoned fact based argument more than makes my day.

Thanks, Darks You know, you pointed out some things in your first post that I never knew as well. I didn't realise that ownerless cows were so utterly wretched in India... I'd always taken for granted that they were well taken care off because of their 'sacred' status.

I eat raw meat all the time... from steak tartar to sushi. I am eating raw "meat" at least twice a week. of course the meat has been frozen for 3 days(sushi) I dont know what the deal is with steak tartar.

Then again I saw a pic of a guy who tried to evade the freeze for 3 days rule when it comes to raw fish...

Ill try to include the link

okay, i cant find the link but it was nasty.. the guy had worms growing in his brain. his skulll rotted. then again he shouldnt have waited 3 years after the headaches started..dumbass.

Well, I try to stay away from raw meat, especially fish, because of the parasites that might be in them ... Hypocrite!!! I love raw salmon

I haven't heard about the guy you were talking about, Darks, but I do know of this one case where a girl got it in her head that if people with tapeworm infestations wouldn't gain weight, that if she ingested tapeworm eggs it would cause her to lose weight too. And of course the exact same thing happened -- the worms went right up to her brain, turned it to mulch and killed her.

The thing, see, is that when a person eats tapeworm-contaminated food, they're eating a grown worm. (Note: only if the food is improperly prepared or undercooked; a good dose of heat will kill 'em off) All the other parts of the worm except for the scolex (the head) will be digested; the scolex will anchor itself to the wall of the intestine, grow itself a new body and produce eggs... which are then dumped out of the human body along with the faeces. These eggs are ingested by swine and herbivores, and will hatch within their bodies, thereby continuing the life cycle.

(Note: Only the eggs of Taenia solium, whose other host is the swine, will infect humans; T. saginata - whose other hosts are herbivores - eggs simply passes through the human system)

Now watch what happens when a person ingests a Taenia solium egg instead of the worm.

Because nature dictates that the worm spends its adult life in humans and its 'infancy' in swine, this means that the eggs will hatch in the body of the swine, take up residence in its muscles... and wait for the animal to be eaten, so to speak. Now here's the thing: these young worms will penetrate the intestinal wall and enter the circulatory system, thus travelling to different muscle parts of the body including the liver, heart, lungs, eyes and the brain. SO if a person has the misfortune of eating an egg instead of a grown worm......

The first signs of brain infection are headache and fever - at which point the mortality rate will approach 50%; however, prolonged treatment with drugs like praziquantel will usually cure the patient.

Microbiology is fun, isn't it? I love telling friends at breakfast time (over a plate of sausages) the sausage-making process and how easily sausage meat is contaminated (especially since it's made up of bits and pieces)... and then smile angelically and continue savouring my franks as they push theirs away in utter revulsion and horror

Yep, I love my meat But you couldn't persuade me to eat raw pork....

PS: Just in case anybody's interested, the latest theory regarding the cause of Mozart's death is that his pork chops were contaminated with Trichinella, and that he died of trichinosis, which was a significant cause of death amongst people back then. I've written an encyclopaedia article on it, if anyone wants to read it.