An Interview With John Coltrane

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The following is a transcription made by Brad Baker ([email protected]) of a cassette recording of an interview with John Coltrane. Everything is the result of his work, except for the few links that I've put in. "The copy of the tape used here was several generations old, complete with tape dropouts, etc. There are sounds of children at play and automobile sounds in the background." The interview is by Frank Kofsky, and has been published in his book " Black Nationalism and the Revolution in Music". Excerpts from his update of this book are also available online. Note Frank Kofsky was a professor in the Department of History, California State University, Sacramento. He passed away in November 1997.

FK: "The people I was staying with have a friend, a young lady, and she was at, downtown at one of Malcolm X's addresses, speeches, and lo and behold who should plop down in the seat next to her but John Coltrane..." < laughs>

JC: < chuckles> "Yeah".

FK: "...so right away that whetted my curiosity and I wanted to know how many times you had seen him and what you thought of him when you saw him and so forth."

JC: "That was the only time..."

FK: "Were you impressed with him?"

JC: "Definitely... definitely."

< both try to talk>

FK: "Oh, go on..."

JC: "Well, that was the only time. I had to..., I felt I had to see the man... you know... and, I was livin' downtown, I was in a hotel, an I..., I saw the posters, that he was gonna be over there..., so I..., I just said 'well I'm goin' over there' you know, and see this cat, because I'd never seen him, and..., I was quite impressed."

FK: "That was one of his last speeches wasn't it"

JC: "Towards the end of his... career."

FK: "...Some musicians have said that there's a relationship between, some of Malcolm's ideas and the music, especially the new music. Do you think there's any thing in that?"

JC: "... Well, I think that, music, ...ah being expression, ...of the human heart, of the... human, of being itself, does express just what is happening..."

FK: "So then if..." < John starts> "...oh."

JC: "...ah, I feel that it express... it expresses the whole thing. ...The whole of the human experience at the particular time that it is being expressed."

FK: "What do you thing of the phrase 'the new black music' as a description of some of the newer styles... in jazz?"

JC: "Well, ...... I don't know. Phrases ah, it, I don't know it ... They don't mean much to me. ..., in a sense because usually I don't make the phrases, so I mean..."

FK: "That's right."

JC: "...I don't, < laugh> I don't react so much to 'em I mean it makes no difference to me one way or another what its called."

FK: "If you did make the phrases, could you think of one..."

JC: "I don't know what the hell I, ...I don't think I have a phrase, I don't have the... I don't think there's a phrase for it. See what I'm sayin'?"

FK: "The people..."

JC: "...that I could make."

FK: "The people who use that phrase argue that jazz's particularly related to the black unity, and it's an expression of what's happening there, that's why I asked you about your reaction to Malcolm".

JC: "Well I think it, ...I think its up to the individual where you can... call it what you may, for any reason you may. My self I, ...I recognize the artist, ...and I, ...and I recognize an individual, I see his contribution and, when I know a man's sound, well to me, that's him. ...You know, that's just man, and that's what I recognize, and all that... labels I don't bother with."

FK: "But it does seem to be a fact that most of the, changes in the music, the innovations have come from black musicians."

JC: "Yeah well this is... how this is..."

FK: "Have you ever noticed, since you've played all over the United States and in all kind of circstances, have you ever noticed that the reaction of an audience varies, changes if its a black audience, a white audience or a mixed audience? Have you ever, seen that the racial composition of the audience seems to determine how the people respond?"

JC: "Well, sometimes 'yes' and sometimes 'no'."

FK: "Any examples?"

JC: "Well, no I mean sometimes it might... it might appear to be... one, you might say well... It's hard to say, man, you know sometimes people like it or don't like it no matter what color they are."

FK: "It... you don't have any preferences yourself about what kind of an audience you play for..."

JC: "Well to me, ...it doesn't matter..."

FK: "What kind of.."

JC: "...I just, I only hope that whoever's out there listening, I hope they're enjoying it. That's the, you know if they're not enjoying it... you have an idea..."

FK: "If people do enjoy the music, how would you like them to demonstrate this? Do you like an audience that's perfectly still and unresponsive or do you like an audience that, reacts more visibly to the music?"

JC: "Well, I guess I like an audience that, that does show its ah, you know, what they feel. ...that responds."

FK: "I remember sometimes when you played the Jazz Workshop in San Francisco you really got, that kind of an audience that you didn't get when you played in Shelley's Mann Hole in Los Angeles and it seemed to me that that had some effect on the music..."

JC: "...It seems to me that the, that the audience, the parti..the audience by... in listening there is an active participation goin' on there you know and... and when you know that somebody is, maybe moved or... the same way that you are to such degree or approaching degree, ...its just like having another member in the group."

FK: "Is that what happened at the Ascension date? The people who were there... did they get that involved, for example?"

JC: "I...I don't know ah... I was so doggone busy, till, I mean... I was worried to death. That was my, you know that was the way I felt... I couldn't really enjoy the date as if it hadn't of been a date. If it hadn't of been a date then I would have really enjoyed it. The date I'm.. trying to get.. you know, time and everything set and I was just too busy myself. But I don't know.. I hope they... felt something... to hear the record, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed all of the individual contributions..."

FK: "Well its a beautiful record. ...and its probably the one record that I've had to listen to the most number of times to get at everything that's happening."

JC: "We got another take out on it now. Did you know that?"

FK: "That's what Bob Thiele told me he said he'd mail me the other one."

JC: "Yeah."

FK: "What you think then about playing concerts. Does that seem to inhibit the interaction between yourself, your group and the audience?"

JC: "Well, on concerts, I... the only thing that bugs me on concerts is... might be a hall with poor acoustics or acoustics which we can't quite get the unit sound see... but as far as the audience, its about the same."

FK: "I wasn't too impressed with the acoustics in Friday night's concert..."

JC: "Mmm, no, I wasn't either."

FK: "...I was sitting right down front so I could hear most of what was going on but even then it didn't sound..."

JC: "Nah, I couldn't feel - I couldn't feel it."

FK: "You can tell when the musicians - they can't hear each other and therefore they can't get themselves.."

JC: "No its - its just like the wind, you're blowin' through the wind."

FK: "Yeah < laughs> . ...Another reason I asked you about Malcolm was because -, you know, I've interviewed about a dozen and a half musicians by this time and the consensus seems to be that, especially the younger musicians talk about those kind of political and social issues that Malcolm talked about, when they're with each other, and, some of them say that they try and express this in the music. Do you find that in your own groups or in the musicians you're friendly with that ... these issues are important and you do talk about them?"

JC: "Oh well they're definitely important. And as I said they are - the issues are part... of what IS... you know at this time."

FK: "Do you make..."

JC: "...so naturally as - as musicians we express - what ever - what ever it is."

FK: "Do you make a conscious attempt to express these things or do you feel that it just..."

JC: "Well I'll tell you - - myself... I make a conscious attempt, I think I could say ...in music I make - I make... or have tried to make... consciously, an attempt... to - change... to change what I've found in music, you see. ...And, in other words ...I've tried to say, well, this I feel could be better... you see - in my opinion, so I will try to do this - to make it better. This is what I feel that we feel, in any situation that we find in our lives, when there is something that we feel should be better, we must exert effort to try to make it better. So its the same socially, musically, politically, in any - in any department of your life."

FK: "Most of the musicians I have talked to are very concerned with changing the society and they do see their music as an instrument though which society can be changed."

JC: "I think so. I think music is an instrument -, it can create the - initial, by the thought patterns I think you can create the change, you see... and the thinkin' of the people."

FK: "In particular some musicians have said that jazz is opposed to poverty and suffering and oppression, and therefore jazz is opposed to what the United States is doing in Viet Nam. Do you have any comments on that subject?"

JC: "On - the Viet Nam and suffering?"

FK: "Well you can divide it into two parts...the first part is whether you think jazz is opposed to poverty and suffering and oppression, and the second part is whether you think, ...if so, whether you think jazz is opposed to the United States' involvement in Viet Nam."

JC: "Well in my opinion I would say 'yes' because I believe that ah - in my opinion of 'jazz in thought', now we can talk about that later,"

FK: "Call it what you want..."

JC: "...yeah, in other words - to me it is an expression of - to me music and this music is an expression of highest - to me - higher ideals, see? So therefore brotherhood, is there, and I believe that with brotherhood there would be no poverty. And also with brotherhood there would be no war. So I mean to me I agree with them in this thing... and that's it."

FK: "That also seems to be what most of the musicians feel, David Izenzon said almost the same thing when I talked with him Monday. He said 'Well, thing in our music is that we want a classless society without these frictions and without the waste and without the warfare.' Would you care to comment on the working conditions for, quote, 'jazz musicians'? Do you think that jazz artists are treated as they deserve to be treated and if not - can you see any reasons why they wouldn't be?"

JC: "Well, I - I don't know, its according to the individual, you find - many times a man may feel that he's - the situation is alright with him whereas another man might say well, 'that situation is no good for you', ah, you see... So its a matter of a man knowing himself - just what he wants. And that way - I mean his - according to his values, you see, if he doesn't mind a certain sort of treatment - then, I'm sure he can get it, see he can find it somewhere. If he does mind it then he doesn't have to put up with it. In my opinion, at the state - at this state of the union - where I'm at now, state, ah, I'm - I don't care too much for the playing in clubs consistently. There was a time when this felt alright to me, 'cause, my music I felt I had to play a lot to work it out, you see. But, ah, now I don't think that was absolutely where it was at, but, I had to find that out myself."

FK: < ???> "to the country"

JC: "Yeah, I had to go through this thing where - and now I don't feel this is necessary I think that - it is a matter of being - able to be at home and in - to - go in to yourself. In other words like the years before I was playing, you know, every night. And, as such I don't feel, I don't, the situation involving the clubs is not an ideal one for me - now."

FK: "What is it about the clubs that you don't like?"

JC: "Well, actually... we don't play - this - the sets, forty minute kind of thing anymore you see and it's very difficult to always do this kind of thing now, and now. I - the music, changing as it is, ...there are a lot of times where it, it doesn't make sense, man, to have - to have somebody drop a - glass or - you know - glass or some money right in the middle of Jimmy Garrison's solo...,"

FK: "I know exactly what you..."

JC: "...its happenin' in there you see? - and - these kind of things that are - are calling for some other kind of presentation I think."

FK: "In other words, these really are artists who are playing yet they're not being treated like artists, they're being being treated like, part of the cash register... they're just there to bring up the money.

JC: "Yeah, I think the music is rising in my, you know estimation it's, it's rising into something else... and ... so we'll have to find this kind of place - you know, that we can play at."

FK: "Why do you think conditions have been so bad for, producing art... by musicians. What do you think causes these poor conditions that you have spoken of?"

JC: "Well..., I don't know unh, I don't really know how - how it came about... you see. Because I do know there was one time when the music musicians played were dances you know, and used to play theatres ... well this, ah, took away one element, you know, but still it was hard work these guys had to do, 'cause I remember some of those one-nighters were pretty - pretty difficult you know, but it just seems that ah, the music has been directed by ah... businessmen I suppose - who know how to arrange - the making of a dollar and so forth, and now... and maybe often the artist hasn't really taken the time himself to just be ah, just what he's, ah if he does feel he should be presented in some other way. And I think these are the things which are being thought about more now."

FK: "That's what I find too. Do you think the fact that almost all of the original jazz musicians, were black men, and have continued to be throughout, the generations, do you think this encouraged the businessmen to take advantage of them, and to, treat their art, sort of with this contempt, ringing up the cash register in the middle of a bass solo..."

JC: "Well I don't know. It's ..."

FK: "Most of the owners I've noticed are white.."

JC: "Yeah, well, this could be Frank this could be... I don't know."

FK: "How do you think conditions are going to be improved for the musicians?"

JC: "Well... there has to be a lot of self-help... I believe. ...They have to work out, you know, their own problems... in this area."

FK: "Do you mean like for example the Jazz Composer's Guild was trying to do ..."

JC: "Yeah...I do think that was a good idea... I - I really do. ...and I don't think it's dead ...it just couldn't be born at that time. I still think it's a good idea."

FK: "The first time... this is the history of all kinds of organizations in this country is that they're not always successful the first time but I think that it's inevitable that, musicians are going to try to organize and protect themselves against, ...for example I was at the Five Spot Monday night and, I figure that there were about a hundred tables in there and, two people at a table comes to about seven dollars and fifty cents... a set, at three drinks a set. That means he's making, seven hundred and fifty dollars, say, a set and he has - five - sets and I know the musicians, for the - night aren't getting... anywhere near five times seven hundred and fifty dollars, or even two times seven hundred and fifty dollars. So actually it turns out that, these businessmen are not only damaging the art but they are even keeping people away."

JC: "Yeah, it's... puttin' 'em up tight a lot of people, man, I - I feel so bad sometimes about people comin' to the club I - I can't play long enough for 'em..."

FK: "The guy's hustlin' you on..."

JC: "...god, they come to hear you play and you get up and you got to play a little bit and split. ...These things, you know, somethin' has to be done about it."

FK: "If it hadn't been for Elvin, ...taking, you know, the bartender aside I couldn't have stayed there because I ran out of money after a set, < laugh> ...so..."

JC: "mmm"

FK: "Do, the musicians who play in some of these newer styles look to Africa and Asia for some of their inspiration?"

JC: "I think so, I think they look all over."

FK: "Do they look some places more that others?"

JC: "...and inside."

FK: "Yeah, and inside. I heard you, for example, talking about making a trip to Africa, to gather musical sources? Was that the idea?"

JC: "Well I - I intend to make a trip to Africa to gather, just to gather what ever I can find and, particularly the musical sources."

FK: "Do you think that musicians are more interested in Africa and Asia than in Europe?"

JC: "As far as the musical..."

FK: "Just in general..."

JC: "Er... the musicians have been exposed to Europe, you see, so its , the other parts... that, they haven't been exposed to, which I think they're trying to, at least I speak for myself, I'm trying to - to have a rounded, you see, education."

FK: "Is that the significance of those Rhythmic instruments you've incorporated into your group, to give it a sort of middle-eastern or African angle?"

JC: "Well it's, it's, if so or maybe so but it's sump'm I feel."

FK: "Why do you think that the interest in Africa and Asia is growing at this particular time?"

JC: "Well it's just time for this to, come about, that's all. It's just , a thing with its time."

FK: "Bill Dixon suggested it might have something to do with the fact that many African nations became independent, in the nineteen fifties..."

JC: "mm"

FK: "...and changed the way, the Negros in this country looked at themselves, gave - made them more aware of the African heritage and made them more interested in going back and looking for it. D'you think there's anything to that line of thought?"

JC: "Yeah, that's part of..."

FK: "Another question, along the same lines is, it seems that group improvisation is growing in, in importance. For example what you did with Pharoah when you both were playing simultaneously."

JC: "mm-hmm"

FK: "...and also of course Ascension. Do you think that this is a new trend now, or not a new trend but do you think that this is growing in importance now, this, playing together?"

JC: "Well, maybe, I don't know it seems to be happening. I don't know how long it's gonna stay here, or, at this time I guess stay here."

FK: "Why do you think that's taking place now?"

JC: "I don't know why...I don't know why... it just is, just all the time."

FK: "But it is there, I'm not making something up when I..."

JC: "No, I feel it's there but I don't know why."

FK: "And another question about the new music. I've noticed that a lot of the new groups are piano-less, or even in your case where you have a piano sometimes, you'll have the piano lay out, during, the solo or - parts of the solo. Why is, why is this coming about at this particular time? Why the desire to deemphasize the piano... or rather not to deemphasize it but to give it another kind of position in the group? Another kind of role?"

JC: "Oh, I don't know because see I still use a piano and I haven't reached the point where I feel I don't, ah, < ???> , and, I - I might ah, soon, ah soon but ah, I don't know ah, maybe it's because the... ...well when you're not playing on a given progression, you see, well it's - you don't need, don't really need anybody to state these things... and it would ah, get in your way to have somebody point in another direction and you tryin' to go in this, then, it'd be better for you not to have a piano."

FK: "It seems that some of the direction the horns are going in too, is to get away from the twelve tone scale, to play notes that really aren't on the piano..., the really into the high-pitched notes, the shrieks and screams - I don't know what you - what - you - words you use to describe those"

JC: "mmm"

FK: "...words but I think you know what I mean... sounds that were considered, wrong or still are considered wrong by some people., now, if you play those notes that really aren't on the piano you have a piano there stating notes that are on the piano do you feel that this is some kind of a clash that you'd rather avoid in, in the group?"

JC: "I suppose that's the way that... some men feel about this - I say, I still use the piano. So I haven't reached this, ah, point yet, to where you know where the piano is a - a drag to me, you know to that degree. Only thing I - I, I don't ah - we don't follow what the piano does anymore because we all movin' ah, our own directions."

FK: "You do have the..."

JC: "I like it for a back drop, you know, the sound."

FK: "You do have the piano though lay out, a - a fairly large part of the..."

JC: "Well after a while I always instruct the players that, whenever they - wish - they can just layout, and, let it - let it go on, as it is. Because after a while the piano - pianist well they get tired < laugh> , you know? You can't think of anything else to play just... stroll."

FK: "When I talked to you a couple of years ago in Los Angeles and I asked you if you would ever consider adding another horn to your group you said, probably the thing you would do is, ...if you added anything you would add drums." < both laugh> "and was that... did you have in mind then these kinds of things that ..."

JC: "I don't even know, man, but I guess so. And that's just - I feel - still feel so strongly about drums. I really do."

FK: "You said you were listening to African music and you noticed that , if you played that with some of your music, that it still all sounded right because anything you played over the drums..."

JC: "Yeah I - I feel very strongly about these drums but I - experimented in it but it - we didn't have too much success. I believe it would've worked... but, you know Elvin and McCoy they couldn't hold the, it was time for them to go."

FK: "Well it doesn't necessarily have to be two drums it could be just, drs and another Rhythm instrument, like, that's what I was really referring to..."

JC: "Yeah! I think so too. Now I'm thinking particularly - come in different form - shape, you know, how to, just don't know how to do it though."

FK: "After all though, the things that you were playing up there Friday night, those are Rhythm instruments too, not all Rhythm instruments are, are..."

JC: "Oh, that's true."

FK: "That's what I meant when I said if you that's what you had in mind."

JC: "mm-hmm, yeah."

FK: "Speaking of Elvin and McCoy that - reminds me of something Sun Ra said and I'll repeat it - I'll make it clear that I don't - put any faith in it, but ah, since he said it and he told me to tell you I thought I'd - pass it ...he says that, you hired Rasheed and, as a means of driving Elvin and McCoy out of the band because you didn't want them in the band in the first place but that was your way of doing it., do you want to answer that or..."

JC: "No, I don't - I don't, I was - I was trying to do something, ...ah, that was, I was trying to do something, please... I was - there was - the thing I wanted to do, in music, see, and I wanted - I figured I could do two things: I could have a band that played like the way we used to play,"

FK: "mm-hm"

JC: "... and a band that was, goin' in the direction that this, the one I have now is going. I could combine these two, with the, you know, with these two concepts, going. And, it could have been done."

FK: "Oh, yeah Sun Ra is quite bitter and claims that you've stolen all of - your ideas from him and in fact that everybody has stolen all of their ideas from him, this is a - rather - exaggerated view..."< laugh>

JC: "There may be something to it too!" < laugh> "... I look - I've had him - and, I know that he's doing, he's done some things that I've wanted to do."

FK: "How do you feel about having another horn in the group, another saxophone, do you feel that - that that in any way competes with you or does - it enhances what you..."

JC: "Well it - it helps me..., it helps me stay alive sometimes because I'm at - physically, man, its the pace I've been leading, its been so hard,"

FK: "I've never seen how you could do it..."

JC: "...'cause sometimes I've just been a little, you know, and I've gained so much weight, you know, Frank that sometimes its been a little hard" < laugh> "physically. I feel that I like to - I like to have somebody there, if, in case I, just - don't - can't get that strength, I like to have that strength in that band, you know, from some one. ...And Pharoah is a - very - strong - spirit and will, see, and that's - these are things I like to have up there."

FK: "Well strength's the word - it's the word for the band now I mean and energy I had..."

JC: "Energy yeah, I like to have this energy."

FK: "Do you feel that spurs you on, the presence of, especially a man as powerful as ah, Pharoah?"

JC: "Any - yeah, all the time I - there's always got to be somebody, , with a - lot of power... you see, cause Elvin ah, in the old band Elvin had this power, see."

FK: "Do you think that ..."

JC: "...I always have to have somebody" < laugh> "with it, you know. ...Rasheed has it but it hasn't quite un, unfolded completely, you know, but its, its, all he needs to do is play."

FK: "Yeah that was my impression too that he really was feeling his way - ahead in the music - and didn't have the confidence that Elvin had, but then of course Elvin - look how long Elvin was with you before he had it..."

JC: "...he was there - Elvin was there for, couple years, although Elvin was ready, from the first time I heard Elvin, you know, he was, I could hear the genius there. But it, he had to really play, you have to start off playing, steadily, steadily, and every night or while you're gonna play, you have to - build and then it comes out. Its like with Miles it took me around - two and a half years, I think, for it to start developing, you know, like it was... goin' to take the shape that it was goin' to take."

FK: "That's what's so tragic about the situation of the younger musicians now is they don't have that opportunity to play together."

JC: "Yeah, it certainly needs to be done, it should be happenin' all the time. And then the men would develop, sooner."

FK: Don Cherry has a new record out and it, I think its a beautiful record on Blue Note and one of the reasons I think it's so good is because its - here he has a group that's worked together for a few months."

JC: "Yeah."

FK: "...And so, he knows how to get, put something together for all of the men that isn't just... on a date."

JC: "...yeah, yeah..."

FK: "... I know you are, 'cause, you know, you've kept the group alive, that way."

JC: "...yeah I sure try to..."

FK: "Have you listened to many of the younger saxophonists besides Pharoah?"

JC: "Yes, Albert Ayler at first. ...listened very closely to him..."

FK: "Could you see any relationship between what you were doing and what he was doing? In other words do you think that he had developed out of some of your ideas?"

JC: "I don't, not necessarily, I think ah, what he's doin' is ah, it seems to be ah, movin' music into even higher frequency, ...you see..."

FK: "To me it appears that some of the things that you did..."

JC: "...It's like maybe where I left off may be where he started - or something, ...you see..."

FK: "Oh, well, in a sense that's what I meant"

JC: "feelin' I have"

FK: "I... listened to..."

JC: "Not to say that he, you know, would of - copied this or that, but its just that he, you know he - filled an area..."

FK: "mm-hm"

JC: "...that it seemed that I hadn't... ah, gotten to..."

FK: "It seemed like,"

JC: "...I got it since..."

FK: "...that, to me it appeared that - your solo on Chasing the Tr - Chasin' the Trane, that he had developed... some of the ideas that you put out there and he had, expressed them in his own way, but that - this was, one of the points from which he had begun. Had - you ever thought of it in that light?"

JC: "No I hadn't."

FK: "Do you ever listen to that record much?"

JC: "Only when - at the time that it came out - I used to listen to it and wonder what happened to me..."< laughs>

FK: "What do you mean?"

JC: "Well, it was sort of a surprising thing to hear this back, you see... because ..., I don't know it just - it came back another way."

FK: "How did it come back? Did..."

JC: "Well, it was - it was a little longer - than I thought it was..."

FK: "mm-hmm"

JC: "...and ah, it - it had, quite a bit of, fairly good amount of intensity in it...you know, which I hadn't quite gotten into a record - recording before. ...you see..."

FK: "You were pleased with it.

JC: "...Well I think that...to, you know, to that - to a degree, I mean not - not that I could sit there with it and, you know, love it forever."

FK: "Well I know you'd never be pleased with anything you do..." < can't decipher>

JC: "I realize that it - I'd have to do that, or better," < laugh> "...you see. ...you know."

FK: "I think its a remarkable record and I think maybe you ought to go back and listen to it."

JC: "Maybe so..."

FK: "Because - yeah, because I see a lot of the younger - well I don't see any who isn't playing... something that you haven't at least sketched out before."

JC: "...no, I don't know..."

FK: "Archie, it seems to me, is the one who has gone furthest in directing his own - in the direction of his own style. But if you listen to Archie three or four years ago with Cecil Taylor, he was playing those - up and down triad things that, you know that, that really one of your, trademarks. ...Then maybe, - you don't want, maybe - you'd rather not think about that, so?"

JC: "Naw, you know because like its a - its a big reservoir, man, that we all dip out of, so," < laugh> "you know, and I - like you never - a lot of times you'll find that - a lot of those things I'd - I'd listened to John Gilmore..."

FK: "mm-hmm"

JC: "...kinda closely before I made 'Chasin' the Trane' too. So some of those things on there are really - direct influences of listenin' to this cat. ...you see?...and I don't know who he'd been listenin' to so..."

FK: "So it really is a reservoir."

JC: "Yeah."

FK: "It's too bad that he's never had a recording that demonstrated what he could do, really its..."

JC: "I really en - I like him..."

FK: Well everybody talks about him and yet I've listened to, you know, a number of Sun Ra records which I guess is the only place you can really hear him."

JC: "Yeah, you'd probably have to hear him stretch on his own or somethin'."

FK: "Right..."

JC: "...'cause I heard him do some things which are really beautiful."

FK: "...After Chasin' the Trane came out and then Impressions came out you did ..." < tape dropout>

JC: "Well, I tell you, I had some trouble, ...at that time - I did a foolish thing - I got dissatisfied with my mouthpiece." < chuckle> "...and I had some work done on this thing, and instead of makin' it better it - it - it ruined it. ...and it really, ... ah - it discouraged me, you know, a little bit, because I couldn't - there were certain aspects of that - playin' that - certain fast thing that I was reachin' for... that I couldn't - get, you know, push because I had damaged this thing. ...so I just had to curtail it." < chuckle>

FK: "Until you got another..."

JC: "Well, actually I never found another, but, after so much of - this layin' around and makin' these kinds of things I said 'well, what the hell', you know, I might as well just go ahead and do the best I can... but at that moment, it was so vivid in my mind, the difference in the - what I was gettin' on the horn. It was so vivid in my mind until I couldn't do it. Because as soon as I'd do it I'd hear it and it just discouraged me, see? ...But after a year or so'd passed, well I'd forgotten." < chuckle>

FK: "That's funny, because, you know I think I know - your music as thoroughly as any non-musician, and yet that wouldn't have been apparent to me."

JC: "Yeah well that's - that's a funny thing, man, that's one of the mysteries. And to me as soon as I'd put that horn in my mouth I could hear it. ...I could feel it, you know, and I just... so I just stopped, and I just went into other things."

FK: "The reason I asked that was because - you recall that was the time - around the time you had Eric (Dolphy), in and out of the band."

JC: "...yeah..."

FK: "...and, there was a whole wave of really hostile criticism..."

JC: "Yeah and this - this - all this was at the same time. ...So you can see how it was - I needed all the strength I could have at that time, and maybe some of these things might have caused me to feel that, well, you know I - 'damn, I can't get what I want to out of this mouthpiece so I'll work on it.'"

FK: "Do you think then this might have undermined your self confidence to a degree?"

JC: "It could have...yes I think that it could have..."

FK: "Why do you think there's been all this, ...hostility to the new music? Especially in your case..."

JC: "Aw man, I - I never could figure it out, ...you know? And, I wouldn't - I couldn't even venture to answer it now. I just don't know. ...Because as I - as I told them then I thought that they just didn't understand." < chuckle>

FK: "Do you feel that they were making..."

JC: "...So I felt that they don't under - didn't understand"

FK: "Do you think that there were making, as conscientious, as thorough an attempt to understand as they could have?"

JC: "At times I didn't feel they were, ...because, I did offer - to them. I, think in this article in Down Beat and asked, I asked if any of you - men were interested in ah, you know, tryin' to understand - let's get together and let's talk about it... you know? 'Cause if they was really genuinely interested or thought there was something here that they, instead of just condemnin' it - what you don't know about, well let's discuss it, let's talk about it. ...But no one ever, you know, came forth, so... I don't think they were really - they didn't want to know what I had to say about it." < chuckle>

FK: "I think it frightened them, Bill, was..."

JC: "W... it might have."

FK: "Bill said, you know we talked about this at great length, and he said 'well, these guys...', see it's taken him years to learn how to pick out 'I Got Rhythm', on the piano and now, the new music comes along and undermines - their entire career, which is, built around understanding - tunes based on..."

JC: "Yeah, yeah, it could be - I dug it like that too I said 'well it could be a real drag' for those guys < undecipherable word> 'cause if there's something that he wont be able to cope with, and, he wont be able to write about, you see, and ... if he can't write about it then he can't make a livin' at this and I realize that's a... I quieted down, I didn't - I wouldn't allow myself to become, too, - hostile back in return. ...Although there was a time I - I kind of froze up on the people at Down Beat. I froze because, I don't know, I felt that there was something there that wasn't, I didn't - I felt that there was... nuttin' there but weakness - direct their actions - which I didn't feel there should have... you see..."

FK: "Course that, that makes me want to kill all those people because..."< laugh>

JC: "Well, man, you know..."

FK: "Because I get so much pleasure out of your music that..."

JC: "Yeah well the, the test was for me. They could do what they wanted to do - the thing was for me to remain firm, ...in what I was doing - But it was a, ...funny time partic -, period in my life because I went through quite a few - changes, you know, like the home life - everything, man, I just went through this in everything I was doing."

FK: "The perfect wrong time to hit you..."

JC: "Everything I was doing, was like that."

FK: "Yeah..."

JC: "But it was a, kind of a test on me and - comin' out of it - its just like I always say, man, when you go through these crisis < sic> in life, when you come through 'em or come out of 'em, you are definitely stronger. You know? In a great sense...yeah."

FK: "Did Impulse - did the reaction of Impulse to these, adverse criticisms, have anything to do with, those records that we talked about."

JC: "The ballads and the..."

FK: "...the ballads and..."

JC: "...Well, I don't know, I think Impulse was interested in havin' a..., a what they might call..., a balance sort of thing - a < ??> sort of a ...catalogue, ...you know... and, I'd have found nothing wrong with this myself. ...you see I like... ...in fact most of the songs I even write now or have been written, the ones which I really consider songs are ballads." < chuckle> "...'cause there is... something there that, I mean, I really love these things."

FK: "Well they're beautiful..."

JC: "...and ... I felt..."

FK: "I've another question about that..."

JC: "...and these ballads that came out... were definitely ones which I felt - at this time, and I chose them. It seemed to be something that was layin' around in my mind, from my," < chuckle> "you know, youth or somewhere, that I just had to do. And they came at this time when the confidence in what I was doin' on the horn had flagged, it seemed to be just the time to clean that out. And then Johnny Hartman, the man that I had - stuck up in my mind somewhere - I just felt sump'm about him, y'know, I don't know what it was. ...And, I liked his sound, I felt there was somethin' there I had to - hear, y'know? So I - looked him up... And did that album, see...and, although I realize - I don't regret doin' those things at all."

FK: "You shouldn't"

JC: "...no, no.."

FK: "...because that album - Johnny Hartman went with, in my opinion, went with the quartet perfectly - those are - those are the only six songs that I know the words to." < laugh>

JC: "Y'see ah, me too."

FK: "Was it six or eight...six"

JC: "Yeah, I don't regret doin' those."

FK: "No, no."

JC: "The only thing I, I regret not havin', you know, ...kept that same attitude which was, you know, 'I'm gonna' do - no matter what.'. That was the attitude in the beginning. But ah, as I say... there was a whole lot of reasons why" < chuckle> "...these things just happen."

FK: "You have ups and downs and that was one of the downs."

JC: "Yeah, that was one of the downs."

FK: "Do you think that learning how to play the soprano, had anything to do with the change in your style, from, what it had been, say in..."

JC: "Definitely, definitely, yeah... certainly did."

FK: "How so?, could you...spell that out in some..."

JC: "Well it ah, the soprano by being this small instrument I found that, ah, playin' the lowest note on it was like playing the - one of the middle notes on the tenor."

FK: "mm-hmm"

JC: "...so therefore I - I tried - got so I could - ah - my embouchure would allow me to make the upper notes."

FK: "mm-hmm"

JC: "...I found that I was clear all over this instrument, you see? And on tenor I hadn't played all over it because I was playin' certain ideas which would just run in certain ranges, octaves, see."

FK: "mm-hmm"

JC: "...but by playin' on the soprano and becomin' accustomed to playin' from that low Bb on up, it soon got so that when I went to tenor I found myself doin' the same thing, you see, and this - caused a change or the - willin'-ness to change and just try to play the - you know, as much of the instrument as possible."

FK: "Did it give you a new rhythmic conception too..."

JC: "I think so... I think so... ah, a new... a new shape came out of this thing and patterns, you know, the way the patterns would fall."

FK: "It seemed to me that, ...after you started playing soprano, and particularly after My Favorite Things, then you started feeling that same kind of a pulse - on the tenor, that hadn't been there - in your work before."

JC: "It's quite possible, it's quite possible. In fact the soprano started - soprano's one of the reasons I started" < chuckle> "getting dissatisfied with that tenor mouthpiece, see. ...Because the - the sound of that soprano... was actually so much closer to me in my ear... there's something about the presence - of that sound, you know? ...that, that to me, I didn't want to admit it but to me it seemed like it was better - than the tenor - I liked it more, see? ...And I didn't want to admit this damn thing 'cause I said 'well the tenor is my horn, this is my baby'. But that this soprano - or maybe its just the fact that it's a higher instrument it - it just, it started pulling my ...conception, you see?" < chuckle> "It really was headed, goin' into this instrument."

FK: "How do you feel about the two horns now?"

JC: "Well, the tenor - is the power horn. ...Definitely. ...ah, but soprano there's, there's still something there... in just ... just the voice of it, that I can't - that's really beautiful... that I really like, you know?"

FK: "Do you regard the soprano as an extension of the tenor or ..."

JC: "Well at first I did, but I don't know it's just - now it's another voice, just another... another voice."

FK: "Do you ever use the two horns on the same piece like you did on Spiritual?"

JC: "I think that's the only time I've done that. ...Sometimes in clubs, if I feel good, I might do something like this - start on one and end on another, you know. ...But I think that's the only one on a record."

FK: "What prompted Pharoah to take up the alto, was that to get away from two tenor sound or...?"

JC: "I don't know..."

FK: "...did you talk it over with him?"

JC: "No, this is something he wanted to do and, about the same time I decided I wanted to get one. So we both" < chuckle> "got 'em."

FK: "I haven't heard you play the alto yet have you played much..."

JC: "I played it in Japan. I played it in Frisco a little bit. ...but I've had a little trouble with the intonation of it"

FK: "mm-hmm"

JC: "...it's a Japanese make that they - new thing they're tryin' out so they gave us these horns to try. ...and mine has to be adjusted at certain points where they're not quite in tune so I don't play it but ...I like it."

FK: "I saw a picture of you with a flute!" < laugh>

JC: "...yeah"

FK: "Are you playing that too now?"

JC: "I am learning... I'm learning."

FK: "You're always learning aren't you?"

JC: "Oh, I hope so... I'm always tryin' to learn..."

FK: "I looked at the Down Beat Critics Poll two years in a row, this year and last year, and both year I noticed - both years I noticed this, that European critics - are much more in favor of - the new music - than the American, almost say fifty percent or sixty percent of them would vote for new musicians whereas say only about a quarter of the American critics..."

JC: "Isn't that sump'm?"

FK: "Is this what you found in - in Europe and the - well let me just say..."

JC: "Yeah!"

FK: "... outside the United States that, your music is more favorably received by, the critics - the power structure - I would say then in the U.S."

JC: "Well I tell you ah, in the new music, I believe that - and when I say 'new music' I mean most of the younger musicians that's startin' out"

FK: "mm-hmm"

JC: "...I know that they have definitely - have found a quicker reception in Europe... than they have here. And, when I started it was, a little different because I started through - Miles Davis who was an accepted musician, you see... an ... they got used to me here in the 'States now when they first heard me with Miles here, they did not like it."

FK: "I remember, I remember..."

JC: "So anything - it's just one of those things, anything that they haven't heard yet and is a little different, they're goin'to reject it at first. But the tide - it will roll around - the time when they will like it. Now the 'States, by being here with Miles and runnin' around the country with him, I - they heard more of me here and consequently they began to accept it - before they did in Europe because they hadn't heard me in Europe. But when we went to Europe the first time, well it was a shock to them there, you know, like - they booed me and everything in Paris... because they - well they just,"

FK: "...weren't ready for you."

JC: "...weren't ready to listen. ...But, now I find, the last time I was in Europe it seems that, the new music, they - they really, you know, they open up, man..."

FK: "I think..."

JC: "...you can hear it there better than they do here."

FK: "I think that part of this is because, what's happening in new music is analogous to what's happening in painting, say, and sculpture and literature, and the people who appreciate jazz are - in Europe are much more aware of this than.."

JC: "I see..."

FK: "...what do you..."

JC: "Well I don't know I, y'know?"

FK: "See in, in Europe jazz is regarded as a serious art whereas here, it's regarded as... well I don't know..."

JC: "Whatever it is..." < chuckle>

FK: "...as part of the night club business or"

JC: "...yeah"

FK: "Otherwise you couldn't have a magazine like Down - who are you looking for John, do you want some cigarettes or... ?"

JC: "No I'm just sittin' up because my back is wet and I'm just tryin' to get up and get off this < ? > "

- End Cassette Side One -

FK: "Yeah I know Albert is going back to Europe and I know that there are many of the younger musicians who - who want to get away from the 'States because of that thing - they just don't feel that there's any hope for them here... Do you remember 'third stream music'- what was called 'third stream music'?"

JC: "mm-hmm"

FK: "Well that - did... did you ever want - feel that, inner urge to play that kind of music?"

JC: "...No..."

FK: "Well, why do you think it didn't catch on - with the musicians. Is there anything about it that, suggests why it was never very popular with them?"

JC: "Well, ...I don't know, like it was an attempt... it was an attempt to create something, I think, with a - more of a - label... you see... than through true evolution."

FK: "You mean it didn't evolve naturally out of the desires of the musicians."

JC: "I don't - I don't think so - well it - maybe it did, I can't say that. ...It was an attempt to do something, which is, ...evolution is about trying too y'know," < chuckle> "but there's something in evolution that, man, it just happens when it's ready, y'know, also you have to try, also. ...and this just - it wasn't - really where it was coming from, y'know? it was... it was - what was it? - an attempt to blend, to wed, two musics - right?"

FK: "mm-hmm"

JC: "...is this what it really was?"

FK: "I suppose - well that's what it was supposed to be."

JC: "...yeah."

FK: "You said that, talking about - saxophone players, there was a common pool that everybody dipped into - maybe here there wasn't enough of that pool - I mean or... for people to dip into."

JC: "Well I just think that it - it wasn't time, it hadn't... it was an attempt to do something, at a time when it just wasn't time for this to happen. ...and therefore it - wasn't lasting. ...but there may have been some things that came out of this, that have been beneficial, and promoting move to final change, which is coming. So nothing is really wasted... although it might, you know, it might appear to have failed or not succeeded, the way that men felt that they would have desired it to..."

FK: "Even the mistakes can be instructive if you know how to use them."

JC: "Definitely!"

FK: "Do you make any attempt, or do you feel you should make any attempt to educate your audience in ways that aren't musical? Its obvious that you want your audience to understanding what you're doing musically but, ...do you feel that ... you want them to understand some other things too and that you have some kind of responsibility towards them..."

JC: "...Sure - I feel this, and, this is one of the things I'm concerned about now, I just don't know how to go about this... I wanted to... I want to find out just how I should do it, y'know and , I think that it's gonna have to be... very subtle - I mean it's - you can't ram - philosophies down anybody's throat. ...and ... the music is enough!" < laugh> "...you know, and that's philosophy. ...but ah, I think the best thing I can do at this time is to try to... get myself in shape, y'know, and ah - know myself. ...If I can do that... then ... I'll just play, you see..." < chuckle> "and leave it at that! ...Then I... I believe that will do it, ...you know, if I can really - can get to myself, ...and really, and then - be, just as I feel... I should be. And play it, you see, and I think they'll get it. 'Cause music goes a long way, it - it can influence."

FK: "That's how I got interested in all those things I was talking about earlier, I mean Malcolm X and so forth - I might not have come to it, or come to it as fast, if it hadn't been for the music. `Cause that was my first introduction to something - beyond my own horizons and it made me think about the world I was living in."

JC: "Yeah, that's what I'm sure of, man, I'm sure, I'm really sure of this thing. ...and, as I say, ...there are things which, as far as spirituality are concerned which are very important to me at this time, ...and, I've got to - grope - for certain, you know, phases of this, to, of understanding and more consciousness and awareness of just what it is that, ...I'm supposed to, you know, understand about it. ..And I'm sure all this will be part of the music, which is... to me, you know, I feel that I want to be a force, for good."

FK: "...And the music too."

JC: "Everywhere." < chuckle> ...you know I want to be a force for real good. ...in other words, I know that there are bad forces, y'know I know that there are forces out here that - bring suffering - to others, and misery - to the world. ...But I want to be - the opposite force, I want to be the force which is truly for good."

FK: "I don't have any more of my prepared questions to ask you, or my improvised questions to ask you!" < laugh> "...`cause we're all out of questions here that were just related to you. All those questions about music I don't ask the other - the other musicians, but I've had a - I've always had a very special interest in your work, so I take this opportunity - I don't know when I'll get the chance to sit you down with a tape recorder again" < laugh> "...so I took this chance. Do you have anything else that you'd like to - get on here?"

JC: "I think you have - just about covered it. ...I believe... just about covered it."

FK: "Would you mind, or do you have any objection if I publish this interview someplace?"

JC: "Well, the only thing I would like is that you - might send me before you do..."

FK: "Ah, transcript? Okay. ...The reason that I say that is because you are - now a person of such significance and such influence that, things coming from the mouths of other people, which could just - be disregarded, can not be so easily disregarded - when they come from you."

JC: "...sure."

FK: "...and, I noticed from what you've said that - you're sincere in wanting to be a force for good and I think this is one way of - getting it in front of a lot of people."

JC: "mm-hmm"

FK: "...so I'll type a - I'll have a transcript typed up and send it to you and you can edit it."

JC: "..yeah, well that's, that's the only thing I ask."

FK: "I'll indicate where the shopping carts were rattling." < laughter>