Sandy Denny's Lyrics Part 2, Discussions
Subject: Sandy�s Lyrics, After Halloween
Date: 9 Dec 1997
From: Helge Gundersen
I've been subscribing to this list for a few months, and discovered Sandy Denny not too long before that. I venture to say that there is little analysis and appraisal of Sandy's music and lyrics in (on?) this list (even if Emmanuelle touched on something the other day). Maybe it takes more time to come up with that than discographical and biographical details... (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with topics like those). Anyway: One of my favourites of Sandy's tunes is After Halloween. The demo version (haven't heard the other one) is superbly sung, and the guitar accompaniment is really all she needs. The quite distinctive music must be some of the most lyrical she wrote, and the same could be said for the lyrics (given below, stolen from the music transcription section at the web site).
I wondered if any of you are willing to act as literary analysts. The lyrics look meaningful, but I feel I don't quite grasp its meaning. (Not exceptional! ...but I like this song so much that I'd like to go further.) In particular (but not only), the function of "the sea" is too unclear to me. What is it about the reality of the sea? And how is the relationship between the tears and the sea? Etcetera.
Interpretations, anyone...? Helge (Oslo, Norway)
Red and gold and halloween have passed us by,
The charcoal branches lean against the rosy sky,
You are so far away and I could touch you if I may,
But don't you worry now, I'm only dreaming anyway.
You may be lonely, you may be just on your own.
It could be anywhere, some place that I have known.
But who am I and do we really live these days at all,
And are they simply feelings we have learnt and do recall.
Oh the sea has made me cry,
But I love her too, so maybe I love you.
Tears are only made of salt and water,
And across the waves the sound of laughter.
October has gone and left me with a song
That I will sing to you although the moment may be wrong.
Could it be the sea's as real as you and I?
I often wonder why I always have to say I'm only dreaming anyway.
Could it be the sea's as real as you and I?
I often wonder why I always have to say I'm only dreaming anyway.
From: [email protected] (BEKAERT DENIS)
Date: 11 Dec 1997
Helge Gundersen wrote:
I've been subscribing to this list a few months, and discovered Sandy Denny not too long before that. I venture to say that there is little analysis and appraisal of Sandy's music and lyrics in (on?) this list (even if Emmanuelle touched on something the other day).
I feel just a little bit more safe for what you say about my attempt for get a deeper attention on what are ( or were) these people who thouch me so deeply through their songs and music. Those who know me a little more than "good bye and hello, and how does the time go?..." may think this is a hobby for me but it's more serious: it's the only way of feeling I'm able in each encounter in my life. So, happy to find somebody to talk with about those immaterial but eternal tracks of one happening soul in a so moving and fragile woman She (Sandy) seems to me !
[...] One of my favourites of Sandy's tunes is After Halloween. The demo version (haven't heard the other one) is superbly sung, and the guitar accompaniment is really all she needs. The quite distinctive music must be some of the most lyrical she wrote, and the same could be said for the lyrics (given below, stolen from the music transcription section at the web site). I wondered if any of you are willing to act as literary analysts. The lyrics look meaningful, but I feel I don't quite grasp its meaning. (Not exceptional! ...but I like this song so much that I'd like to go further.) In particular (but not only), the function of "the sea" is too unclear to me. What is it about the reality of the sea? And how is the relationship between the tears and the sea? Etcetera.
This song is one of my favourite too, and I did wonder too about the meaning of the sea, in this one and in the others, as more as she said that may be she didn't gave any sense only she likes the sea and likes to be moved by the sea. In " after Halloween" I think the sea couls symbolise the way she loosed her lover as if he was a sailor ( like in a lot of traditional songs). What is outstandingly well evoked in this song, I think, is the quiet sway of mind between dream and reality, between hope and acceptance, when one does want to trust life and fate whatever could have happened. What touchs me so much that I can't explain it in a few words is the way she uses to say as simply as if it was so simple that you can touch anybody you love anywhere he could be, if only you could make your dream be reali ty.
Well, it may seem strange to explore that kind of feelings in an english song for a french girl who can't lay claim to any acknowledged ability on that as long as I need to compare the two or three or five... possible senses of each word I use here... May be I dreamed that I met somebody who could understand what I mean...
Helge, yesterday I was wondering about a probable link between tears and the sea in the song "The Sea". Is that a simple coincidence or is there here one kind of trail? One could ask too about the dream meanings... (After Halloween, I'm A Dreamer, Winter Winds...) One could ask about impossibility of sharing the understanding of life... (Solo, The Sea, Nothing more...)
Two weeks ago, I have been very happy to meet and drink a beer, speaking of music and people, with the Fairport Convention actual members, after one hearty joyfull excellent concert in Belgium. They are men like we are but they have so much fair music and intemporal images... despite of being as human as us, poor and glorious, glorious and poor. That's what interest me. Sandy is a great people, that's why I am here. But the one who stones me is Richard Thompson... Would anybody be interested on discussion and comparisons in that way of analysis about those people and what they did?
If not,
"I'm sorry for taking so much of your space"
"I'll be taking my business elsewhere"
All my regards to everybody d.chum, Emmanuelle
From: [email protected]
Date: 16 Dec 1997
Helge and Emmanuelle have gotten me thinking about the sea now too. Part of After Halloween seems to be in the same vein as The Music Weaver - a story about longing and the melancholy of being alone: perhaps After Halloween is about missing Trevor when he's off on tour and she home alone? The sea then is this vast distance, this body which separates and isolates and which surrounds her -she lives on an island after all- but is also something that can be overcome, because tears will end and the sea is just a whole bunch of tears, just salt and water, and the loneliness will end. It's a very melancholy song and I think some of the images are just impressions of that melancholy, images to give a feeling of melancholy and of longing: the first stanza is perfect in that regard - it sets up a bleak landscape. I really liked Emmanuelle's idea of Sandy expressing the impossibility of sharing the understanding of life - Sandy's songs seem often to be expressing feelings about how there can be so much distance between people, that there is so much that can't be conveyed. Not in the sense of absolute alienation of someone like Nick Drake, but conveying an uncertainty about getting people to understand - "Maybe I dreamed that I met somebody who could understand what I mean..." as Emmanuelle put it.
Well, enough fun; I've got to get back to writing a paper.
John Russell Boston College
From: [email protected] (BEKAERT DENIS)
Date: 17 Dec 1997
(1)
From Olivier, on 16/12:
[ John Penhallow wrote: In French, not only does Sandy sing the song for a mature expanded world market audience but it just sounds so more sensitive, how that never got release on the Continent I'll never know..... or did it??]
Well, well, as a french speaker, I must admit I am not too convinced about Sandy's spelling. I am not surprised it was never released in France. BTW, "si tu dois partir" may also sound excitingly exotic to British listeners but not exactly french to french ears. I don't know what Emmanuelle thinks of this. I definitely would not include any of these two in my Sandy playlist.
I can't tell my opinion about "Ecoute, Ecoute" as long as I don't know the version ( still hoping some body will tell me on what record it has been released ). What I think about " Si tu dois partir " : it sounds exotic to me too, because of the so english accent. I take the song for what it has been, I think : a trying of special hommage to Dylan and Cajun music, in a special cheerful ( possibly cheers-full too, if I dared a guess, paying attention of accidental percussions noises in the song) moment... A funny wink from an english folk band to french folk's "amateurs" listeners... It is not in my play list neither in yours but I don't dislike to listen it, for the fun.
(2)
From: Helge Gundersen I want to thank Levent very much for the article by Clive Jones (which indeed was relevant to my earlier message).
Thanks too, Levent. I agree with the special attention on the "living" modern language Sandy she uses in her songs. It gives a kind of wave movement to the verses: the sea again...
(3)
From: John Russell Helge and Emmanuelle have gotten me thinking about the sea now too. [...] I really liked Emmanuelle's idea of Sandy expressing theimpossibility of sharing the understanding of life - Sandy's songs seem often to be expressing feelings about how there can be so much distance between people, that there is so much that can't be conveyed. ot in the sense of absolute alienation of someone like Nick Drake, but conveying an uncertainty about getting people to understand - "Maybe I dreamed that I met somebody who could understand what I mean..." as Emmanuelle put it.
Thank you, John, for your ideas about After Halloween. I think you must be right. Happy to meet somebody who seems to understand what I mean... although we aren't speaking about our own personnal understanding of life. Speaking of others is a beginning of sharing that, I think, that's why some are writing songs may be...
d.chum Emmanuelle
Date: 17 Dec 1997
From: Helge Gundersen
Emmanuelle, John, and you others.
I was first thinking of the same as John, the sea as something vast which separates people (like "My Bonnie is over the ocean", ha-ha). But if I understand Emmanuelle correctly, she suggests we have an allusion to the way sea takes away people (they drown), for instance the fate of many fishermen. Maybe this isn't crucial; "he" is in some way "gone" in any event, and death can simply symbolise "not near" (but perhaps a certain permanence in this separation?). She (or "I") is singing this after Halloween, when, as far as I understand (I live in a very protestant country...) the dead souls are remembered and honoured. The landscape, as John points out, does evoke melancholy. But we may perhaps more specifically add that the branches look like burnt, and the leaves are dead and gone (did they glow red and gold like embers?).
but is also something that can be overcome, because tears will end and the >sea is just a whole bunch of tears, just salt and water, and the loneliness will end
A-ha, this looks interesting. Emmanuelle wrote something about the sway between dream and reality, hope and acceptance, and it seems like if it's so that the loneliness will end, it will be as an acceptance of the "gone-ness", not that the two people will physically meet. Or what?
She obviously loves the sea, and to me this just seems like a fact in this song (I don't know why she does). But why should she maybe love him because she loves the sea? (I'm thinking aloud now.)
Possibly the song can be taken on more than one level: picturing a personal relationship between two people, and more general relationships between people. I agree that Emmanuelle's idea of understanding between people is interesting.
Helge, yesterday I was wondering about a probable link between tears and the sea in the song "The Sea". Is that a simple coincidence or is there here one kind of trail? One could ask too about the dreammeanings... (After Halloween, I'm A Dreamer, Winter Winds...) One could ask about impossibility of sharing the understanding of life... (Solo, The Sea, Nothing more...)
This certainly looks like worth looking into. But I don't think I've much to deliver myself in this respect at the moment (maybe you have?). Just some general thoughts: When an author often returns to a motif, like the sea, or dreaming, she may do so in more or less different ways in different poems or songs. I don't remember the lyrics for "I'm a dreamer" now, but isn't the dream motif in "After Halloween" on a more personal level than in that song?
I haven't looked much at the lyrics for "The Sea", but so far I can't see how tears come in. But do tell me what you think. The music of "The Sea" is great, and the whole band plays it soooo beautifully. I'm a bit unsure about the lyrics. But immediately it looks like "After H." comes more straight out of Sandy's heart, while "Sea" is slightly mannered. And what does the song really convey? Maybe "hiding from the island" is a clue? The people think the sea is doing that, while she is really doing quite the opposite (taking land). But why? But it may very well be me, and not the song!
This is more than a nice change of pace from the acetate matrix numbers and exact marriage dates... (friendly smile).
Cheers, Helge
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