The Prog_CDR FAQ, v 1.0 This FAQ was written/assembled/etc. in June 2001 by Bill Knispel. Material in this FAQ has been generously donated by the moderators and owners of the Yesswap Yahoogroup, whom the author of this work thanks for their help. This is Version 1.0 of the FAQ, the first full version of the FAQ. It supercedes Version 0.5, currently posted at the Prog_CDR site (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prog_cdr). I cannot take full responsibility for the contents of this FAQ: as well as the material donated by the Yesswap group, I have to thank all 180 (or so) members of the Prog_CDR mailing list for their suggestions, knowledge, and advice. In addition, I’d like to specifically list people who donated (some at my request) information for this FAQ from the Prog_CDR and Yesswap lists: a.d. jensen, Adam Perkowsky, David Le Hunte, djp, Edward Jerlin, nightliner@webtv.net, David Ellison, Michael Habiby, Chad Pankratz. LINEAGE: FAQ 1.0: This document, the one you are reading. It is the most recent version of the FAQ, written and assembled in June of 2001. This version of the FAQ is primarily made up of original material. Material from other authors or FAQ’s is identified by bold-italic typeface, and recognized as such within the text. It supercedes and replaces… FAQ 0.5: Posted to the list archives in May of 2001, this version of the FAQ was made up primarily of material from the Yesswap FAQ (whom we thank for their generosity in our time of need). Some original material was interspersed through the text, but most of the material was from outside sources. CONTENTS: I: Basic information about the group 1: What is Prog_CDR? 2: What do I have to do to join? 3: What does ‘membership’ entail? 4: Important Prog_CDR links. II: Basic information on RoIOs 1: What is a RoIO? 2: What’s a ‘silver’? 3: What are some guidelines on RoIOs? 4: What should/should not be offered as a RoIO? III: List policies 1: How does the list deal with bad traders? 2: How does the list deal with sellers? 3: How does one set up a tree? A: Administering a tree B: Joining a tree C: Responsibilities on a tree 4: How does one set up a chain? 5: How does one set up a weed? A: Responsibilities of the person initiating a tree. B: Responsibilities of the recipients 6: How does the list deal with ‘flaming’? 7: General netiquette. 8: What are some of the consequences of bad behavior on the list? 9: What are the consequences of trading official material on the list? IV: Technical information 1: MP3 2: WMA 3: SHN 4: DAO 5: TAO 6: EAC 7: Important software A: Easy CD Creator/CD Creator Deluxe, Adpatec B: Nero Burning ROM, Ahead C: SoundForge XP/SoundForge, Sonic Foundry D: GoldWave, GoldWave Inc. E: EAC, ‘cardware’ F: Software and Techniques for Burning CDs on Mac 8: Stand Alone burners 9: Media Types and Manufacturers V: Mailing information 1: Cases or not? 2: How to protect the disks 3: Artwork? 4: Shipping overseas VI: Creating a list of recordings 1: What to include 2: How to organize 3: Where to post I: Basic information about the group 1: What is Prog_CDR? Prog_CDR is a Yahoogroup dedicated to the friendly trading of progressive music of the unreleased variety. The following text is taken directly from the front page of the group on Yahoogroups: “This is a group dedicated to spreading live unreleased recordings through trades, chains, trees, weeds, etc.   There will be no selling of material on this list.   No offering to pay for the recordings, or selling the recordings.   Buy what the musician sells, share freely what they allow us to share :-) We are a very active group, so expect a fair amount of e-mail from the group's members.   We also offer digest or web-based subscriptions, so there's a setting that will fit any delivery need. Please feel free to post reviews of favorite live shows from your collection...participate in the group's offerings, and make this club a great resource for live progressive music trading!!!” As the introductory text mentions, all material traded on the list must be of the unreleased variety…be it live material or studio material that has not been officially released. Trading of out of print/unavailable material will be taken up on a case by case basis. 2: What do I have to do to join? The first thing you need to do is send a subscription request to: prog_cdr-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Once the subscription request has been sent in, you will receive the following e-mail: “Thanks for your interest in Prog_CDR. We are currently looking over your request and basing our decision on data being given to us by powerful FBI, CIA, NSC, KGB and Section 6 computers. And boy...the data we have on YOU... Ahem... In order for us to approve you, we do ask one thing...please send us an e-mail (I think you can do this just by replying to this message) telling us about yourself a little. How long have you collected, which groups do you collect, do you have a list on-line, and if so, where? This is just to prevent people who are obviously looking to troll the group from doing so, and not to prevent good traders from joining. I hope you'll understand. Your approval/denial will be handled within 24 hours of your reply to us! Thanks, and hope to see you on the list. Bill K. Moderator/Owner Larry P. Moderator Donna K. Moderator” Please take note of the section in bold italic face. When the list began we did not require such an introductory message. As we’ve grown and gotten bigger, the possibility of the group attracting people who may be more interested in making money off of RoIOs increases as well. While asking for an introductory message will not deter the truly determined seller from getting on the list, but it does do two things: 1) It does provide some type of filter. 2) It does give the new member the chance to introduce him/herself. I’ve been fairly lax in enforcing this up until now. With the release/publication of this FAQ, all memberships will only be approved after this welcome message has been sent to the moderators. 3: What does ‘membership’ entail? There are no set in stone requirements as to what you have to do as a member of the list. Obviously you’re here to trade CD-R’s and increase your collection. You can participate in as many trades, weeds, trees, or chains as you’d like. There is conversation on the list dealing with things outside the setting up of distributions of recordings…we discuss media, file types, and other tech issues directly (or indirectly) related to the hobby. Feel free to put your two cents worth in on these discussions. We also have an active polling section, and we strongly suggest that you use it! Polls on ‘official’, i.e. list moderator organized/run releases, media preferences, storage preferences, etc., are always going on, and are a great way to let your opinion be known! You can access the polls at the following link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prog_cdr/polls Again, please get involved! The list is as much about the people on it as it is the music alone. Without you, the member, the list dies! 4: Important Prog_CDR links Post message: prog_cdr@yahoogroups.com Subscribe: prog_cdr-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: prog_cdr-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: prog_cdr-owner@yahoogroups.com Messages Archive: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prog_cdr/messages Files Archive: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prog_cdr/files/ Bookmarks Archive: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prog_cdr/links Database Archive: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prog_cdr/database Polls Archive: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prog_cdr/polls II: Basic information on RoIOs 1: What is a RoIO? Recording Of Indeterminate/Illegitimate Origin. Other slang terms would include footwear, cookies, boots, ‘import album’, or bootleg. Many lists (this one included) prefer the abbreviation RoIO, for a number of reasons. Most of these reasons have to do with the stigma associated with the word bootleg, but there are other reasons as well. Since many participants in trading lists utilize work PC’s for their e-mail access, it is understandable that a word such as ‘bootleg’ wouldn’t be acceptable, as it may be filtered. It may also be red flagged in other network situations. In general, and in conclusion, please don’t use the word bootleg, despite my doing so several times in this section :) 2: What’s a ‘silver’? A silver is a mass produced RoIO…that is to say, one that was manufactured in an actual pressing plant. So called because they are made on traditional silver colored blanks, rather than the silver/blue, gold/green, etc. color combination CD-R blanks. These are ‘boots’ in the traditional sense of the word…recordings sold by unscrupulous businesspeople looking to make quick and easy money on die-hard collectors of certain bands. Traditionally, the most popular artists have the most pressed RoIOs available. The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Bruce Springsteen, and so on are amongst the most often booted artists in history. However, literally dozens if not hundreds of pressed boots from Yes, Genesis, etc. are available. The best thing we can do as traders, if we have such recordings in our collections, is to trade them out at no charge, to keep the bootleggers from making any money on their proposition. 3: What are some guidelines on RoIOs? There are a number of ways of looking at this question. Firstly, a RoIO is not a pirated copy of an officially released album. There will be no trading on list of officially available recordings. You will not trade for a copy of the latest Yes CD. Anyone found trading officially available material will be subject to disciplinary action as listed and codified in section III, subsection 8 of this FAQ. That said… RoIOs can be live concerts, studio outtakes, etc. There has been some discussion on Prog_CDR regarding the trading of studio outtakes and demos, as a result of the Yesoteric project initiated several years ago on the Yes Notes From The Edge list (see http://groups.yahoo.com/yesswap for more specific information on the controversy surrounding this admirable, but flawed, project. More specifically, go to their files section to find a link to said info. Of course, you’ll have to join their list to find out about the project, but there’s nothing wrong with that, is there?) In general, some members shy away from trading studio material, others do not. I would ask in general to keep such material off the public list, but private, one on one trades may well be acceptable. There has been further discussion on the trading of unavailable or out of print recordings. Again, this is a gray area, and one I’m personally not totally comfortable in, but I will add that the group has basically decided as a whole that such material may be traded only until such time as it is officially re-released, at which time one is obligated to either purchase the official album and destroy the copy, or simply destroy the copy. 4: What should/should not be offered as a RoIO? Well, we went over some of that above, but here’s a general listing of should-s and shouldn’t-s. OK TO TRADE: Audience tapes of live concerts Soundboard tapes of live concerts Audience videos of live concerts Taped performances from TV/cable/satellite broadcasts, etc. Studio demos/outtakes (see above) Remixes, i.e. Pink Floyd trance remixes Copies of original ‘silver’ boots (keep the money out of their pockets!) Or, from our old, v 0.5 FAQ: What’s acceptable to trade here? Anything considered progressive. I also add in space rock, krautrock, ambient, maybe even darkwave here. Also groups associated to the progressive scene…October/November Project, Grey Eye Glances, and other groups of that nature. We know progressive when we hear it, right??? NOT OK TO TRADE: Official live albums Official live videos Official studio albums Basically, if it’s officially out there from the band, don’t trade it! Our motto here is simple: Buy what the musician sells, share freely what they allow us to share!!! III: List policies 1: How does the list deal with bad traders? Dealing with bad traders is an unfortunate part of the hobby. Many of us are lucky…we’ve never been ‘burned’ by another trader. Some of us have been hit once or twice by a bad trader in one way or another. Hopefully none of us are that bad trader :) However…it is a very Pollyana-ish way to look at things to assume that we will be ‘bad trader free.’ Eventually something really bad will happen (and no, we’re not talking about sending out a weed with errors on the first disk…no names will be named :) after all, it got corrected, right???), and we need to look at ways to keep said bad things from happening, and create a way of dealing with them. Prog_CDR is set up as a benevolent triune dictatorship, under the auspices of myself (Bill Knispel, owner/moderator), 1st moderator Larry Peryer, and 2nd moderator Donna Knispel. Between the three of us, we make sure the list runs smoothly, approve memberships, etc. It is also the three of us who will be there should someone have a problem with another member of the list with regards to trades going awry. The first thing you should do is NOT POST THE POTENTIAL BAD TRADER’S NAME ADDRESS PHONE NUMBER ETC TO THE LIST!!! Come to one of us (easily contacted through the prog_cdr-owner@yahoogroups.com address) and let us know there is a problem. Don’t send us a scathing, it needs to be read with asbestos gloves on e-mail…give us the information (who, what, when, where, why, how) and allow us the chance to contact the second party and try to intervene. Trading is a 2-way street. There is a lot of trust involved. You send out your recordings (copies of them, at least), and you expect the other party to do the same. Often things go awry that are not the other partie’s fault…packages do get lost in the mail and never recovered. Often packages take unbelievable lengths of time to make it from one state to the next. A measure of patience is requested, but we are here should patience run out. Allow me to utilize some material from the Yesswap FAQ (thanks again guys!): First off, we want to emphasize that one is innocent until proven guilty. Many well-meaning people do indeed run into personal problems, medical or technical computer problems or otherwise, which hold up trades and cause people to not respond for periods of time. However, bad traders RELY on nettiquete, courtesy, and others' honorable behavior to keep the shadows looming over everything they do and shedding a little light on their activities can prove to be quite illuminating 1. A "bad trader" list with evidence of such will be maintained. (Details soon.) 2. If you don't make good on a trade, your mailing address is public fodder. The reason for this is that the mailing address is often one's *only* recourse for tracking down people who use multiple fake email monikers to rip people off. … 4. If you make good on your trades, you are completely exonerated and should be considered a list member in good standing. It is the position of the list moderators that bygones be extended to all who make good on their trades with list members. We're not interested in punishing anyone. We merely wish to protect the interests of All Good People here. 2: How does the list deal with sellers? First and foremost, selling of recordings will not be tolerated on Prog_CDR. Period. No posts offering to sell your original copy of Live In Flatbush by The Amazing Snodgrass (I made that one up :)). There are other avenues for you to utilize for that…please do so. People who join the list and are found to be taking recordings from the list and selling them will be handled thusly: 1: First, they will be informed once again of the prohibition of selling recordings for profit. 2: Second, their membership in Prog_CDR will be revoked, effective immediately upon discovery of their sales tactics. 3: Third, they will be permanently placed on the banned list (a moderator only privilege). 4: Finally, mention of the action will be posted to the list at large. That said… I suppose you could post that you’re auctioning off certain pieces of memorabilia on Ebay…or that you have several original tourbooks/tour memorabilia that you want to part with. But do ask for potential responses to contact you off list. Prog_CDR really is a trading group, and I’d like to keep the signal to noise ratio as high as possible. 3: How does one set up a tree? Now we’re getting to the fun stuff :) The following information is courtesy of (please forgive me if I’m wrong) David Le Hunte of the Prog_CDR list. Planting a Tree .... First somebody decides they have a show or collection of tracks that they wish to share with the list. An announcement is then made that he/she would like to make this available to the list. The announcement will request certain information to be supplied in the responces, usually NAME, e-mail ADDRESS, COUNTRY, BURNER CAPABLE, HOW MANY LEAVES. A deadline will be set when no further signups will be accepted. (the tree has to be planted sometime:-) The responses to the announcement, if supplied correctly (this is important) will enable the tree planter to arrange the trunk, branches, and leaves in such a manner to minimise shipping distances, and therefore costs. Seed | |--Branch 1 | |-----Leaf 1.1 | |-----Leaf 1.2 | |-----Leaf 1.3 | |-----Leaf 1.4 | |--Branch 2 | |-----Leaf 2.1 | |-----Leaf 2.2 | |-----Leaf 2.3 | | etc etc Once the tree structure has been determined it is drawn up and presented to the list. This then enables leaves to contact branches and branches to contact trunk to arrange terms (B&P, trade, etc.) and confirm delivery addresses. Soon after the tree structure is announced the seed will distribute copies to each branch. The branch will then copy and ship to each leaf on receipt of agreed terms. Everybody ends up happy ...... except those that missed the deadline. For them it is a case of waiting, checking the structure and arranging a private B&P, trade, etc. with somebody on the tree. A: Administering a tree The following ‘trunk’ or administrator information is courtesy of the Yesswap list. The "TRUNK" trades copies to 5 "BRANCH LEADERS" who can make CDRs. They each make CDR copies for their 5 "BRANCHES", creating 25 copies. Each of those trades 4-5 copies to their "LEAVES" (either tape or CDR) meaning the worst you'd do generation-wise, is a tape of the CDR, and everyone gets a copy. ----- Keep in mind these requirements are a suggestion, not a set in stone requirement. Such arrangements are at the final determination of the tree administrator. However, the ‘trunk’ must be capable and willing to make copies for their branches or branch leaders, as well as being capable of following applicable burning requirements (clean copies, etc.). Further information on the technical process of trading can be found in section IV below. B: Joining a tree Again, from the Yesswap FAQ: WHAT DO I DO? You sign up for the tree by filling something like this out and emailing it OFFLIST to the tree leader/trunk: FULL NAME: STATE/COUNTRY: (in order to group branches geographically) WILLING TO BE: (1)BRANCH LEADER, (2)BRANCH, (3)LEAF (pick one) NUMBER OF COPIES WILLING TO MAKE: at least 3, not more than 5 for a BRANCH LEADER, at least 2, not more than 5 for a BRANCH, always 1 for a LEAF.) Whatever other info the tree trunk/source needs/asks of you, such as a poll as to what should be included as bonus tracks on the CDRs. We honor our polls here. So do we at Prog_CDR…sometimes to the point of lunacy :) C: Responsibilities on a tree Timliness…make sure, if you are a branch, that you set up your trades/B&P’s with your leaves as soon as possible. Get your copies out in a timely manner. Cleanliness…make sure your copies are clean, free of additional digi-noise (pops, crackles, unlistenable). Don’t send out copies you wouldn’t want to get. Honesty…if you make a mistake, make sure you correct it in a timely manner. Don’t get pissy if you let out copies that aren’t perfect…just correct it with a smile. From experience…I have :) Further honesty…don’t sign on as a branch if you don’t intend to follow through, just so you can get a copy of the show sooner. See the section above about how we deal with bad traders…this qualifies as well. 4: How does one set up a chain? Again, from the information kindly donated by David Le Hunte: One for the Vine .... First somebody decides they have a show or collection of tracks that they wish to share with the list. An announcement is then made that he/she would like to make this available to the list. The announcement will request certain information to be supplied in the responces, usually NAME, e-mail ADDRESS, ADDRESS, BURNER CAPABLE, HOW MANY LEAVES. A deadline will be set when no further signups will be accepted. The responses to the announcement, if supplied correctly (this is important) will enable the vintner (vine grower :-) to arrange the vine and leaves in such a manner to minimise shipping distances, and therefore costs. … Once the vine structure has been determined it is drawn up and presented to the list. This then enables leaves to contact vines to arrange terms (B&P, trade, etc.) and confirm delivery addresses. Soon after the vine structure is announced the vintner will send out the original set to vine 1. He/she makes a copy for himself and for his leaves from the original discs and then passes the originals on to the next person in the vine. And so on till the last person in the vine, who makes their copies and returns the originals to the originator of the vine. Everybody ends up happy ...... except those that missed the deadline. For them it is a case of waiting, checking the structure and arranging a private B&P, trade, etc. Please note the text refers to the chain as a vine…both terms are fairly interchangeable. A vine will sprout leaves off of it, so a chain with ‘leaves’ or ‘tendrils’ (to continue the analogy) is not purely a chain any more. 5: How does one set up a weed? Again, David Le Hunte: Growing a Weed ... First somebody decides they have a show or collection of tracks that they wish to share with the list. Then they decide how many copies they wish to make available. A reasonable amount is 5 copies for a single disc and 3 for a double disc set. An announcement is then made to the list that he/she would like to make this available to the first 5/3 persons to respond. They may wish to reserve a place or two for digesters and maybe if they are generous also reserving a place for a newbie/burnerless. Other than the burnerless (obviously) the people responding have to agree to weed the discs to a further 5/3 people. Eventually announcement will not be receiving 5/3 responses at which time the weed is saturated and everybody is happy. This system does not require B&P or trade from respondents. It is sharing the music. You only have to ship to 5 people at most and I'm sure you will be responding to many announcements and getting plenty of free shows. As you can see this is a quick and dirty way of getting the music out there. A: Responsibilities of the person initiating a weed. The responsibilities of the person setting up the weed are similar to those of a tree administrator or trunk…even, one may add, those of a branch. They need to make sure that they distribute all the appropriate information regarding sign-ups for the weed, make sure they make clean copies of the release, get them out in a timely manner, etc. At the beginning of a weed, one should only accept requests for people who have CD-R capabilities to sign up…unless additional copies above and beyond the ‘required’ number are made. This can be done at the discretion of the weeder…if you are offering up 3 copies of a double disk set, you can offer up 4 or 5 (or more) if at least three of those copies are going to people with burning capability. The idea behind a weed is to distribute a recording as quickly as possible. B: Responsibilities of the recipients If you are a ‘burner’… First…make sure your copy is clean. Offer up the show as quickly as possible. Make your copies in a timely manner. Make sure your copies are clean. Post them in a timely manner. If you are burnerless… Make sure your get your blanks (or whatever is agreed upon by you and the person making you a copy) into the post in a timely manner. Enjoy the show. If you get a burner in the future, continue the good deed and offer up shows to the burnerless whenever you can :) 6: How does the list deal with ‘flaming’? Flaming is the purposeful posting of incendiary messages to the list. It may be the result (in our list’s case) of a trade gone bad, or of a disagreement of the merits of one band over another, or one recording style over another, or…well, the list goes on and on. Flaming is universal, unfortunately…every list seems to fall victim to it at least once or twice, no matter how well intentioned everyone is. In general (I like filtering things down to the basics), if you’re going to flame…don’t. Specifically… If you disagree with something someone said, and you want to express your disagreement, please do so intelligently. If you can’t do that, then please do not post until you can. The list’s policies on flaming are thus: 1st time: Warning from moderators, and reiteration of the list’s policies. 2nd time: Member will be placed on moderated status for a period to be determined by the moderators. 3rd time: Expulsion from the list, and placement on the banned list. We don’t want to have to do this, so please don’t make us do so. 7: General Netiquette. The following information on general netiquette can also be found at http://pixel.cs.vt.edu/class1/spinners/InternetSpeak/nettiquette.html * Typing mail messages all in upper case is considered SHOUTING! and rude. * When quoting someone else, remove what isn't directly applicable to your reply. Don't automatically quote the entire body of messages you are replying to when it's not necessary. Leave only the minimum necessary to provide context for your reply. Nobody likes reading a long message in quotes for the third or fourth time, only to be followed by a one line response: "Yeah, me too." * Be professional and careful what you say about others. Email is easily forwarded and often archived or stored, so whatever you say may come back to haunt you. * Never send chain letters through the Internet. A chain letter is simply sending the same e-mail someone sends to you to other people, just for the sake of sending the letter. * Under United States law, it is unlawful "to use any telephone facsimile machine, computer, or other device to send an unsolicited advertisment" to any "equipment which has the capacity (A) to transcibe text or images (or both) from an electronic signal received over a regular telephone line onto paper." The law allows individuals to sue the sender of such illegal "junk mail" for $500 per copy. * Be careful when using sarcasm and humor. Without face to face communications the other person may take your words as criticism. When being humorous, use emoticons to express humor. (tilt your head to the left to see the emoticon smile) :-) means happy face. * It is extremely rude to forward personal email to mailing lists (list-serv) or Usenet without the original author's permission. * When you join a list serv or newgroup, monitor the messages for a few days to get a feel for what common questions are asked, and what topics are deemed off-limits. This is commonly referred to as lurking. When you feel comfortable with the group, then you can start posting. * See if there is a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) for a group that you are interested in joining. Veteran members get annoyed when they see the same questions every few weeks. * When signing up for a group, save your subscription confirmation letter for reference. That way if you go on vacation you will have the subscription address for suspending mail. * Sending a subscription or unsubscription notice directly to the list instead of to a listserv is annoying to others. Only messages meant to be read by the entire group should go to the list. * Send a personal mail message aimed at one person to that person. Not to a publicly distributed news group or list-serv. Otherwise, be prepared to get e-mail messages teasing you or expressing people's annoyance. * Follow any and all guidelines that the list owner has posted; the list owner establishes the local "netiquette" standards for her/his list. * When posting a question to a discussion group, request that responses be directed to you personally. Post a summary or answer to your question to the group. * Posting an advertisement in news groups, unless it is specially chartered for that purpose like the forsale newsgroup. or sending unsolicited advertisements with e-mail is considered rude and in violation of the spirit of the Internet. * If you must cross-post messages to multiple news groups, include the name of the groups at the top of the mail message with an apology for any duplication. * The Internet is a limited resource that needs to be conserved. If you lose interest in a newsgroup or list-serv, unsubscribe from it so that the postings or messages do not clog up the network being sent to you. Do not send messages to a 100 people, when you only want 5 to see it. * Be courteous and respect other people. If you are abusive, you run the risk of the Internet community using its own form to chastise you. The Internet community can use their individual or collective "voices" to inform and sometimes even ostracize you with "flame" messages. If your boorish behavior persists, they can contact your Network Administrator to report your abuses. * Acting responsibly and following general customs allows everyone to experience a global adventure of open communication, information, and resources which ultimately provides a unique and fun exploration of the electronic frontier called Cyberspace. 8: What are some of the consequences of bad behavior on the list? Most bad behavior on the list, I would think, would fall under the category of flaming. We’ve set down those ground rules above. Beyond that, matters will be handled on a case by case basis, with the consequences of flaming taken as the foundation from which we will determine proper action. 9: What are the consequences of trading official material on the list? First off, it had better not happen. Period. If official material is offered on list, the person offering said material will be removed from the list. If it is discovered that official material has been copied and offered off list, the person doing so will again be removed from the list. I’m sorry about beating the proverbial dead horse on this one, but it’s a serious matter. The trading of unofficial material should be in addition to supporting the bands, not to the exclusion of supporting the bands we love. Personally speaking, I do not trade an artist that I do not own their official material. I may well be seeing the world through rose tinted glasses, but I think that’s a great way to handle things. I hope more of you feel as I do on this. IV: Technical information A great source of information on the specifics of the CD-R medium, including media, drives, and the technology behind CD-R/CD-RW, can be found at http://www.cdrfaq.org/. I suggest, if you have any interest in the background information behind what we use to do what we do, to go there. You’ll get lost for hours…literally. Information more specifically aimed towards our group can be found below. 1: MP3 What is MP3? MP3 is an audio/data compression scheme that takes the original raw audio data and decreases the file size to approximately 1/10 its original size. In general, CD-quality audio requires approximately 10 MB for every minute of music. Hence, a song that’s 10 minutes long requires 100 MB of space in raw, .WAV format. Encoding a song as an MP3 requires 1/10 that space…the same 10 minute song will only require 10 MB at near-CD quality. However… MP3 is lossy compression…there is degradation of sound quality as the bitrate decreases. Bitrate essentially determines sound quality and file size…a higher bitrate will give closer to CD quality sound, but at larger file sizes. The above mentioned file sizes are assuming a bitrate of 128 Kbps…approximately good FM-Stereo quality. Generally speaking, CD-quality sound does not become available at less than 160 Kbps bitrate sampling…192 to 256 Kbps smapling is superior, obviously, but the file sizes increase by 50 to 100% in size. At a sampling rate of 128 Kbps or less, digital artifacts become evident in the file. Cymbals may sound like they were recorded under water. Flanging (a ‘wooshiness’) may be heard. Sound quality decreases to AM radio quality, or worse. In general, trading of MP3 sourced recordings is frowned upon. Many traders will not accept MP3 sourced recordings whatsoever. Others will do so if there is no other way to obtain the recording. Still others have no problems, so long as the recording is labeled specifically as such. If you have MP3 sourced recordings in your collection, please label them as such, and do not try to deceive trading partners into believing otherwise. 2: WMA What is WMA? WMA stands for Windows Media Audio. It is another audio compression scheme that allows for CD-like quality in a file size roughly ½ the size of a similar MP3. In other words, a 10 minute song, which takes up 100 MB of space as a .WAV and 10 MB as an .MP3 would take up approximately 5 MB as a .WMA. Here’s some information directly from Microsoft on the .WMA codec (the entire article may be found at http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/imedia/windowsmedia/Tools/MSAudio.asp): Overview The Microsoft® Windows Media™ Audio codec is designed to handle all types of audio content, from speech-only audio recorded with a sampling rate of 8 kilohertz (kHz) to 48 kHz high-quality stereo music. This codec is very resistant to degradation due to packet loss because it does not use interframe memory. Its tolerance makes it excellent for use with streaming content. In addition, by using an improved encoding algorithm, this codec encodes and decodes much faster. The compression algorithm used creates audio files that need much less disk space for storage than the same content created with other codecs. Content created using the Windows Media Audio codec is easily distributed over the Internet because the files can be downloaded more quickly. Therefore, if you are creating audio files for download, the Windows Media Audio codec is a great choice because it provides near-CD, quality sound at half of the bandwidth required by most other codecs. There has been little discussion on the Prog_CDR list regarding the trading of .WMA sourced recordings, but I feel the same general guidelines should apply…clearly label such recordings as to their source, and be honest about it. There are several recordings available that are only available as .WMA sourced recordings…the first that comes to mind is the King Crimson Mexico City concert from 1996 that the band released online as a limited time download. 3: SHN What is .SHN? .SHN is a lossless compression scheme, which means two things mostly: 1) Most importantly, it compresses the original wave file down in such a way that there is no loss of sound quality, unlike MP3 or WMA, which will do some strange things to the sound...like make cymbal crashes sound like they were recorded under water. 2) Because it's lossless compression, however, the overall compression percentage is more like 1/2, rather than 1/10, like MP3. For example...I have a Genesis show (as an example) with a 27 minute version of 'Supper's Ready' on it. Ripping that song to my hard drive, I have a (roughly) 270 MB .WAV file, which is CD-Audio quality. If I were to encode the song as an MP3, at near-CD quality, I could have a 27 to 30 MB file. But I'll have the digital artifacts of such huge compression...strange sounding cymbals as an example, but also at lower bitrates poor sound quality all the way around. Compressed as a .SHN, the file is about 130 MB...still a big file, but there's no sound quality loss. SHN is best used for trading purposes when you have, say, something like the Pink Floyd Tree Full Of Secrets, which is an 18 CD set. In theory, you could send out a copy of the whole set, including artwork, on something like 10 or 11 disks, rather than 18. Because SHN is primarily a data format, when you copy SHN files, you don't have any worries about introducing digital artifacts such as pops, cracks, snaps or static into the copying process. However, you do need to decompress the files to burn them to disk as an audio CD. On the PC, you can get a plugin for winamp called SHNamp which allows you to play SHN files on your PC like you would any other audio file. I've never used it, so I can't vouch for it's clarity or capabilities. I've always seen SHN as a means to an end rather than an end in and of itself. This information (regarding the SHNamp plugin) is from Adam Perkowsky of the Prog_CDR list: I downloaded SHNamp the other day after downloading the Dream Theater SHNs from the Lines in the Sand site. SHNamp does work fine and I didn't hear any difference between what was going through Winamp and what was on the CD after burning. I really downloaded SHNamp only to preview the first couple of SHNs I downloaded just to make sure the files were worth downloading overnight. I think that is the only use for SHNamp, because, like Bill said, SHN is just a means to an end and not the end itself, since SHN 99 times out of 100 will go directly to CDr after decompression. Take care, Adam Perkowsky .SHN is a preferable method for sharing music files. However, it does require a certain level of comfort with working on the PC/Mac/Linux machine, and a certain comfort level with the decompression of the files. As a result it is not the sole method for trading music files. I will leave it up to members of the list as to whether or not they wish to trade/tree/weed/chain recordings in .SHN format. .SHN sourced shows need not be labeled as such, as there is no degradation in sound quality due to compression. 4: DAO DAO stands for Disk At Once, meaning that the recording is done in one operation, without turning off the CD-R drive’s laser between tracks. As such, there are no gaps between songs (unless the source files have gaps in them), and the songs flow from one to the next (do not confuse this with cross fading or the process of segueing one track into another). Live concert recordings require DAO recording, or else there will be gaps between the songs, leading to a dis-concerting experience. (I know, bad pun. I’m sorry.) 5: TAO TAO stands for Track At Once, a process in which each song is recorded as a separate operation, with the laser turning off between tracks. This leads to approximately 2 second gaps between tracks. This is not acceptable for the recording/trading/distribution of live recordings, but may be acceptable for the recording/trading/distribution of studio material. In general, please do all recordings in DAO mode. It’s just easier that way, and no one gets mad :) 6: EAC EAC stands for Exact Audio Copy, which will be discussed below. 7: Important software There are dozens of titles available for the erstwhile home recorder to assist them with their burning. I can personally speak for the tools I work with, but will also list several others that are out there. A: Easy CD Creator/Easy CD Creator Deluxe, by Adaptec (now Roxio) is one of the foremost packages for putting music and data to disk. The first title is packaged in with a number of manufacturer’s drives, and provides a basic set of tools for getting music from the hard drive (or, optionally, from another disk directly) to a blank piece of media. The Deluxe package also includes tools like SpinDoctor, for getting music from audiotapes or vinyl into the PC, cleaning it up from analogue crackles/dust pops/etc., and getting it ready for digital enshrinement. The following information is from the Roxio website: o Burn your favorite MP3s to CD and listen to them on any CD player, anywhere. o Convert songs from your music CDs to MP3 and other audio formats. o Use SoundStream's Realizer feature to improve the sound quality lost during MP3 compression. o The MP3 CD Project lets you create CDs with over 100 MP3 songs to play on your PC or MP3 CD player. o Create your own MP3s with MP3 encoder. o MP3 Playlist Editor lets you decide the play order for the MP3s that you burn to CD. o MS Audio support - decode and play MS Audio format o Spin Doctor removes hisses, pops and clicks from your favorite old records and cassettes and allows you to convert them to digital CDs. o Add professional-sounding transitions between songs with effects like fade-in, fade-out, and crossfade. o SoundStream's normalizer feature balances loudness between music tracks from different sources. There are some known issues with Easy CD Creator, versions 4 and previous, working with Windows ME…specifically, they won’t. Version 5 supposedly fixes this issue. http://www.roxio.com/ B: Nero Burning ROM, by Ahead, is another frequently used package for burning audio and data CDs. This information is from their website: * Audio-CD o Track-at-Once and Disc-at-Once o extraction of multiple audio tracks o speed setting of digital audio extraction o playing tracks digital and analog o format conversion "on-the-fly" o variable pause-length, ISRC o graphical representation of audio files o audio index setting o optional jitter and CRC-correction o filters for de-click and de-hiss o additional filters: wide-stereo and normalize o compile audio cds by drag&drop from cd-rom drives o supporting of MP3 and WMA (MS Audio) as source for audio tracks http://www.ahead.de/ C: SoundForge XP and SoundForge, by Sonic Foundry, are easy to use tools for actually editing digital audio files on the computer. The XP version is more limited, but does allow for creating fades, equalization, and more. The following information is from the Sonic Foundry website: Powerful editing features — Sound Forge XP Studio provides a combination of over 30 audio effects and processes with more than 90 presets. It includes dozens of editing features including: Cut, Paste, Move, Delete, Mute, Reverse, Crossfade, Trim, Normalize, Fade, Pan, Resample, Enhance, Insert Silence, and more. Amazing effects — Sound Forge XP Studio includes a 10-band EQ, Reverb, Distortion, Mute, Reverse, Fade, Crossfade, Normalize, Pan, Amplitude Modulation, Chorus, Delay, Flange, Noise Gate, Pitch Bend, Time Compression and more. Support for many file formats — Sound Forge XP Studio supports a wide range of audio formats, including 12 import formats and 17 export formats, such as WAV, Windows Media™ Audio, RealAudio®, and MP3. It's the simplest, multi-format solution available. Ease of use — Sound Forge XP Studio provides simple drag-and-drop operations and a customizable interface, allowing you to build projects the way you want. Sound Forge XP Studio also supports standard Windows® keyboard commands and mouse shortcuts. Protected work environment — Sound Forge XP Studio includes auto crash recovery, which allows you to recover lost work after a power failure or system crash. http://www.sonicfoundry.com/ D: GoldWave, by GoldWave Inc., is another popular audio editing tool. It provides many of the same capabilities as SoundForge, but with additional user-friendly features, it appears. This is not a tool I have used yet, so if any members of the list who have used it would like to comment, such information would be appreciated. This information is from the GoldWave website: * Multiple Document Interface for editing dozens of files in one session * Large file editing (up to 1GB in size) * Configurable RAM (fast) or hard disk (large) editing * Real-time graphs (amplitude, spectrum, bar, and spectrogram, X-Y, fire) * Separate, resizable Device Controls window for accessing audio devices * Real-time fast forward and rewind playback * Numerous effects (distortion, doppler, echo, filter, mechanize, offset, pan, volume shaping, invert, resample, equalizer, noise reduction, time warp, pitch, and more) * Supports many file formats (wav, mp3, ogg, aiff, au, vox mat, snd, voc, raw binary data, text data), and can convert to/from these formats * Drag-and-drop cue points * Direct waveform editing with the mouse * Clean, friendly, easy-to-use interface. * Excellent value http://www.goldwave.com/ E: Exact Audio Copy (EAC) was put together by traders in Germany who were not satisfied about the quality of CDR burning software, especially, on the audio extraction ("ripping") aspects. It does so many different things, and is so powerful, that rather than trying to list them, I’ve pulled this from the EAC website: Features of EAC * Usage of the Windows 95 and Windows NT ASPI Interface, so both SCSI and ATAPI CD-ROM drives are supported * Hidden sector synchronization (jitter correction) * Secure, fast and burst extraction method selectable. Fast extraction should get the same speed as other grabbers, but is probably not exact anymore. Burst mode just grabs the audio data without any synchronization. * Read error and complete lost of sync detection and correction in secure modes, as far as possible * Output of time positions of all non exact corrections and listen to these positions * Copy of ranges of music data, not only tracks * Automatic Speed reduction on errors and fallback afterwards * Normalization of extracted audio * Usage of the Windows Audio Compression Manager (ACM Codecs) for direct compression e.g. to MP3 waves * Support for the BladeEnc DLL that is usable like an ACM Codec for online MP3 compression * Support of external MP3, VQF, RA and AAC encoders for automatic compression after extraction * Batch compression and decompression of/to WAV files * Compression offset support for exact compression/decompression * Detection of pre-track gaps * Detection of silence in pre-track gaps * Automatic creation of CUE sheets for CDRWin, including all gaps, indicies, track attributes, UPC and ISRC * CD player functionality and prelistening to selected ranges * Automatic detection of drive features, whether a drive has an accurate stream and/or does caching * Sample Offsets for drives with no accurate streams, including the option of filling up missing samples with silence * Option for synchronizing tracks for non-accurate stream drives * Filename editing with local and remote CDDB database and cdplayer.ini support and more features like ID3 tagging * Lyric database support from www.lyrics.ch * Browse and edit local database * Certified Escient ® CDDB(TM) Compatible * Local CDDB support * Record and Loop Record functions for recording from LP, radio, etc. * Automatic rename of MP3 files according to their ID3 tag * Catalog extraction function * Multisession (CD-Extra) support * CD-Text support * CD write support for some drives * ID3 Tag editor with drag and drop possibility from track listing and database * Glitch removal after extraction * Small WAV editor with functions for delete, trim, normalize, pad, glitch removal, pop detection, interpolation of ranges, noise reduction, fade in/out, undo and more * Program is Cardware, so feel free to copy http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/ F: Software and Techniques for CD Burning on the Mac I’ve only personally worked on PC/Windows systems for recording audio and burning CD’s. As a result, I’ve asked for information/assistance from members of the Prog_CDR list on software for the Mac. Here’s some of what I’ve gotten: From a.d. jensen: I only use my Mac tangentially (never thought I'd use that word :-) for audio because most of the cool software is for Windows :-) I use it (and my portable USB burner) when I have trouble with the PC or something can't be read on that machine. The primary software for Mac is Adaptec Toast. Contrary to what I've seen posted, you CAN burn DAO with Toast -- but you have to know how to use it, because you need to set the gaps manually! You have to burn from AIFF files, not mp3s, although you can use MPEGGER to convert to/from AIFF and mp3. AIFF is the Apple format that's functionally similar to .wav, but they're not the same thing. Toast will rip cds to AIFF, can copy CDs and do a few other things. It's really the Mac one-stop shop. I know that Soundjam does some encoding and ripping, but I've never used it, and I'm pretty sure that you can't burn with it. Apple's free "iTunes" program will also rip cds, but I've only used it once or twice to see if it was better than the other options. I'm not really familiar with any audio editing software for the Mac, aside from a very brief foray into it a couple of months ago, when I quickly realized that Windows was a better platform for that. There is a SHN utility for Mac that I've used as well that seems to work fine. Other software titles will be added to this section as information is presented to me, preferably from users for the titles. 8: Stand Alone burners As well as CD-RW drives in PC/Mac systems, there are stand alone burners designed to work as part of a home stereo system. I’ll admit to having next to no personal knowledge of the workings of such systems. So, similar to my situation with Macs, I’ve solicited assistance from the mailing list. Here’s what I’ve gotten: From nightliner@webtv.net: I have a Pioneer stand alone cd recorder hooked up to my stereo system. When I make a cd copy, I go from the digital output of my dvd player into the digital input on the recorder. When making a cd of a tape, lp or videotape, I use the analog input. I guess I should add that when I make a digital copy of a cd, my machine puts on a serial copy protection system. However, apparently those with computer burners can still make copies, at least that is what I have been told. When making analog copies, there is no protection system. From David Ellison: just real quick standalone burners ...i have a single deck burner ..i put a live cd in my portable player or tape deck or record lp player and listen to the performance and press a button on the cdr deck to make track markers on the disc...otherwise you get one long track...it takes alot of time....unless the songs have 2 second gaps between them the cd-r recorder will think its all one song and the "auto-tracking" won't work, and you get a whole performance in one track....mine is a 16 bit recorder and cost about $650....others like dual decks work at 2x or maybe higher speeds, mine is 1x only... 9: Media Types and Manufacturers (suggested for the FAQ by Michael Habiby) Recently, there has been much discussion on this list (and others, as a BTW) about the differing manufacturers and qualities of blank CD-Recordable media. Rather than try and come up with a long list of information on my own, I’m going to present information provided by Prog_CDR list member Chad Pankratz: With cdrs, in most cases it's not the brand that's important, but the manufacturer. For example, Sony used to get their cdrs from Taiyo Yuden (high-quality), but recently they have started to also use Ritex and/or CMC (crap). By "crap", I don't mean that they won't "work just fine" in your burner, but rather that like previous posters said they will deteriorate over time. Most of the cheap cdrs you buy will be sourced from the above two "crap" manufacturers. This includes Imation, Memorex, Pny, all store brands (CompUSA, etc.). As mentioned above, Sony used to be a safe bet, however now they are switching to the crap brands, so it's a question as to whether you will get good ones or crap in any given batch. TDK used to be the same way, however they are also switching to the cheap manufacturers for some batches, so just buying TDK is no longer a guarantee of good quality. These are the good MANUFACTURERS (not brands): Taiyo Yuden Mitsui Kodak Mitsubishi You can include TDK in the list as a *manufacturer*, but remember the TDK *brand* might not necessarily come from their own manufacturer, as mentioned above. So, how to know the manufacturer of your discs? Download CDR Identifier from http://www.cdmediaworld.com/hardware/cdrom/cd_utils_2.shtml . This reads the manufacturer information stamped into cdrs. Note: not all cd burners support reading of this information, so you might find that the program doesn't work with your drive. So, how to know which brand to buy? You want to get discs that use the above manufacturers. To get Mitsui or Kodak discs, you should be safe buying the Mitsui or Kodak brand, as I believe they only sell their own disks under their own brand. To get Taiyo Yudens, you can get Sony, HP, or FujiFilm, but you want to make sure they are marked "Made in Japan", as Taiyo Yuden is in Japan. Any cdrs marked "Made in Taiwan" are almost certainly Ritek or CMC or some other low-quality manufacturer, so avoid them (this goes for any brand, not just the last three mentioned). Currently you can get FujiFilm 80min cdrs at OfficeMax for about $22 for 50 -- make sure they are marked "Made in Japan" and they come in a spindle with a round plastic screw on top and you can be fairly sure they are Taiyo Yudens (CDR Identifier can verify this when you get them home). There may be other brands that use Taiyo Yuden, however I don't know offhand. Also, I have heard that they also sell them directly under their own brand name, but again I don't know where to find them. I don't know how to get Mitsubishi discs (never looked into it). I think Verbatim uses them for some of their discs, but again you have the problem of knowing which batch you are getting for any given purchase. Realize that all this is subject to change, as cd brands constantly switch manufacturers. What we think are "safe" brands now may not be in the future. There are no guarantees -- the best we can do is maximize the chance that we are using good cdrs by following the above guidelines. Where do I get all this information? I am by no means an expert on the subject -- I have merely regurgitated information I have picked up from various sources on the net. Try http://www.cdmediaworld.com/ for a start (start with the section on "CD-R Quality"). Also check out the Usenet group alt.comp.periphs.cdr -- if you're not familiar with Usenet, use http://groups.google.com to access it. V: Mailing information The most important things are the obvious ones…ship in a timely manner, pack the CD’s well, ship them the way you’d like to receive them. That said, here are some general thoughts… 1: Cases or not? Packing in jewel cases does a few things: 1: It increases how much it costs to send the disks. 2: It usually results in cracked or otherwise unusable cases. 3: In extreme cases, it can result in damaged disks. I don’t ship in cases. Most people I know don’t. But if someone requests/requires, try to be understanding of their wishes. 2: How to protect the disks Sleeves tend to be the most widely used method for packaging CD-Rs inside of a mailer. I’ve seen several kinds of sleeves, from the plain old paper sleeve to ones with padded, cloth-like interiors, to plain plastic. All seem to do an adequate job in protecting disks. I tend to use ones with a more padded surface for the disk to rest against, but this is personal preference. CaseLogic and Fellowes are just two manufacturers of that type of sleeve. In sending the disks, a padded mailer is the method of choice. There are several kinds, from tyvek and bubblewrap to kraft paper and shredded paper padding. Again, all of these do well. It’s personal preference as to which type to use. Plain kraft paper envelopes with no padding should be avoided at all costs. It’ll cost a little more to ship in a padded mailer, but it’s worth it. Another course of action is to use specifically designed media mailers, which tend to be hard cardboard ‘boxes’ designed to hold several CD-ROMS. These are fine as well, but a little more expensive on a per package basis. 3: Artwork? Artwork requirements are on a trader-by-trader basis. Many traders absolutely will not accept a trade unless artwork is provided…others only care to get an accurate setlist and venue/date information. In many cases, artwork can be downloaded from various websites on the internet. For list releases, much of the artwork can be found at two different locations: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prog_cdr/files/cover%20art/ http://members.nbci.com/moonglum_1973/prog_crd.htm (And yes, I know the URL is misspelled…forgive, forgive…) Other locations for artwork include (but are not limited to): http://members.nbci.com/ShirtFree/index.html http://www.genesis-movement.co.uk/ More artwork locations will be added as they are presented to me. In general, try to come to an agreement on artwork. If the person you’re trading with asks for it, try to provide it if you have it…either by hard copies, on a floppy (without viruses, of course), on a separate CD-R (if the trade is huge), or by providing a link to the artwork on a website. (My take: I’ve been both ways…in the beginning I absolutely had to have the artwork for each and every CD in my collection. Then I went through a period where all I wanted was a setlist and venue/date. Now I go both ways…I create so much of my own artwork nowadays that I’ll do so if I feel like it…otherwise I’ll just take a setlist. Of course, if someone provides artwork for me without prompting, I’ll gladly accept…but not necessarily use…ink costs money, after all…) 4: Shipping overseas The trading community is an international one. This is a good thing. Often a show you’ve been dying to get your hand and ears on is only to be found in the collection of a trader in the UK…or Australia…or Germany. You get to meet people around the world who share your hobby, your musical interests, your passion. The music spreads around the world, you make new friends, everyone makes out great. But shipping overseas has its own perils and pitfalls. In general, you should follow the same set of guidelines for shipping within your own borders…pack well, use a padded mailer or media shipper, use protective holders for the CD’s, etc. I can only speak for shipping from the US to other countries. I’m hoping that people from overseas (respective to the USA) can fill me in on the methods required in their countires, and this section will change/grow as said information is available. 1: For ALL packets shipped overseas, use a USPS Customs Declaration Form for Small Packets, PS Form 2976. I’m emphasizing this. Some Post Offices may not ask you to use one. I know my local one says ‘they’re not required anymore.’ However, without a Customs form, your package may be searched, opened, and confiscated by Customs, and the disks will never arrive. 2: In filling out said form, under ‘Detailed Description Of Contents,’ I’ve used the terms ‘Used CD’s’ or ‘Data CD’ most often (after all, what is CD-Audio but a form of data). Do not use ‘bootlegs’ or ‘live recordings’ or anything of that sort, as honest as it may be. The packet will be confiscated, and you may get a visit from the RIAA. 3: Under the section for ‘Value’…well…this is a toughie. I normally figure out the cost of each CD-R and multiply it by the total number of disks. Generally I assume approximately 50 cents US per disk. Same thing under the section for Total…just put in the total value of the blanks. 4: This is the most important: There are three boxes on the green section of the form; ‘Gift,’ ‘Merchandise,’ ‘Commercial Sample.’ Always, always, ALWAYS use the box labeled ‘Gift.’ Otherwise the recipient of your packet will be responsible for any and all applicable import taxes on your declared value. And that’s no way to spread goodwill and music, is it? I usually make sure my packet is well sealed…I’ve gone to some ridiculous extremes on this in the past, going as far as sealing the packet with Krazy Glue, and then stapling the packet on top of the glue. You needn’t go to such extremes :) VI: Creating a list of recordings About the only thing that can be more time consuming than actually burning CDs or trading them is getting a list put together, in an organized format, of what you have. You can’t trade if you can’t tell people what you have. Trade lists, and how to put them together, tend to be a source of contention between traders. There are a number of differing opinions as to what such a list requires, and discussions about those requirements can be a recipe for an extended and virulent flame war. And, as seen above, flaming isn’t accepted on Prog_CDR. So, how do we avoid this? Try some of the suggestions below, 1: What to include First and foremost, accurate venue and dating information, or as accurate as you can provide. There are a number of sites online that can assist with this to one degree or another. For example, Yes fans can access Forgotten Yesterdays at: http://www.nfte.org/fy/ King Crimson fans can utilize one of the following two sites: http://members.aol.com/kingcrimsonlive/index.htm http://www-dcrp.ced.berkeley.edu/cervero/robert.htm Rush fans can use: http://come.to/rush-experience And there are certainly countless other sites available for other bands. After the date/venue information, an accurate setlist is optional but a good idea. This is especially important if you are a collector of a specific band or period of a band, as it may be more of a determining factor in what you may be interested in than any other factor. To give two good examples: Yes does not vary their setlists much from show to show within a tour, while King Crimson does. Two shows, a week apart, may be drastically different for Crimson, where the only difference with Yes may be that two songs have changed positions. Finally, and the source of most contention with most trading lists, is sound quality. There are so many opinions here, and so much of it is subjective and differing from trader to trader, that I won’t set any carved in stone guidelines here…it’d only get me some nasty e-mails. Instead, I’ll quote some general guidelines from the Yesswap FAQ, in the hopes that it’ll give some ideas on how to grade, and list the grades, of your recordings in your collection: SB = Soundboard or FM Radio Broadcast Aud= Audience Tape (c) = Song cuts off at end (bc)= Song is cut at beginning (mc)= Song is briefly cut in the middle A+ Perfect SB, can't get any better! A Near-perfect SB, darn good, not quite A+ A- Either SB w/some generations/needs some EQ or TOP RATE audience tape B+ VERY GOOD aud or SB that's generated. B Still clear, but average sounding. B- Quality beginning to get suspect, but still mostly clear. C+ Just above acceptable limits. C Barely meets minimum sound quality. D This sucks! F Ouch! You may see someone rate a boot 'B' when you think it's 'A'. Remember, their copy may be more generated than yours. If you truly think it's an 'A' and the other guy already has everything you have, offer to upgrade him. Can't hurt. Also, you may see people rating 'A' when yours is a 'C'. It IS possible to trade for an upgrade. It has happened to me a number of times. (But not always.) But, KEEP IN MIND: If you're reading a seller's rating, it's almost ALWAYS a step higher than you would rate it. (Every B comes out A.) In any event, grading is something that you should have as part of your list. How you go about doing it is up to you. (My 2 cents…I am trying desperately to get SQ grading up on my list, but have yet to get from the theory portion of grading to the practice portion. I’m trying, though…) 2: How to organize By band, obviously, then chronologically. This makes it easier to search out particular shows from particular tours. Most lists are done this way…at least, most lists I’ve ever seen. 3: Where to post There are a lot of ways to post your list. On the Prog_CDR list, we have an archive set up for member trading lists at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prog_cdr/files/lists/ Alternately, you can post your list on a website. There are a huge number of ‘free’ web hosting services available to you online for you to post your list at, such as Geocities, NBCI.com, Angelfire, Homestead, and more. Many have simple and easy to use tools online to assist you in posting your content. After posting your list, those same tools will allow you to edit and update your list. Having a web based list makes it easier to attract new traders, especially if you advertise your list through mailing lists, newsgroups, or other trading resources. In any event, should you take this option (it’s one I’ve taken as well), you can post a link to your trading site with the group as well, at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prog_cdr/links