A. 國際司法人員協會 香港分會
  International Commission Of Jurists Hong Kong Section ( Justice HK )

- 031115 論壇 Forum (in English, mp3 recorded at the venue of FCC 1/F Main Dinning Room, Central, HK) :
* Title : Election of the CE – the Role and Formation of the Nomination Committee under Article 45 of the Basic Law

1st Session (legal and constitutional issues) :

Chairman, Miss Gladys Li, SC 李志喜 資深大律師 :

  1. Introduction of speakers and views on the Nomination Committee Download mp3 2,367k 5:02

Speaker: Mr Stephen Lam, Secretary for Constitutional Affairs 政制事務局 局長 林瑞麟 :

  2a. 2007 as the 2nd transition for HK, 3 myths (no change in constitutional system, political apathetic, political parties have no roles to play), but must be per Basic Law Article 45 (actual situation and gradual and orderly progress), research into the Nomination Committee, consultation in 2004, deal with relevant Basic Law Annexes in 2005, legisation in 2006 Download mp3 4,501k 9:35
  2b. research into the Nomination Committee, consultation in 2004, deal with relevant Basic Law Annexes in 2005, legisation in 2006 Download mp3 1,775k 3:46
    Mr. Lam's above speech contained in his Press Release English Chinese.

Speaker: Mr James O’Neil, Deputy Solicitor General (Constitutional)

Speaker: Professor Michael Davis, Dept of Gov & Public Admin, Chinese University of HK 中大政治與行政學系 戴大為教授

  3. First Order Issues (a. Government opposition to reform - no; b. Nomination Committee designed to keep "ittle d democrats" from being nominated), Legislators wait for Government initiatives, Government should have will. Second Order Issue on 3 possible models of the Nomination Committee. If the Government passes through the First Order Issues unambiguously, the scenario of Article 23 will be repeated in article 45 Download mp3 3,383k 7:12

Questions and Answers:

  4. Miss Li asked Mr Lam on the Chief Executive election Ordinance : selected CE be resigned from political parties, which is an inhibition on the roles of political parties Download mp3 681k 1:26

  5. Mr Lam answered Miss Li that it was because CE has to rise above the political fray and take HK's overall interests into consideration Download mp3 960k 2:02

  6. Mr Martin praised Mr Lam for making the "best speech" on the topic. Mr Lee introduced an amendment to strike down the provision that the selected CE should resign from political party. Since Mr Lam dismissed the 3rd Myth, that provision must go (NB this point was not reported by the other media) Download mp3 495k 1:02

  7. Miss Audrey Eu commented that she voted for Mr Lee's amendment; and asked Mr. Lam for the consultation paper. Download mp3 520k 1:06

  8. Mr Lam answered that no firm views yet, and would release research papers when final approval obtained Download mp3 955k 2:01

  9. Miss Emily Lau remarked that the Frontier did not voted against Mr Lee's amendment, it merely supported the CE Bill and stayed away from the Legco Chambers. She resented that the Government view that indirectly-elected CE, rather than the directly-elected political party legislators, represent the overall interest of HK. Whether to amend Article 45, Nomination Committee not as filter Download mp3 1,410k 3:00

  10. Miss Li expressed her personal view that there should not be any Nomination Committee; but as an interim measure when Article 45 is not amended the Nomination Committee should not be a blocking mechanism to the candidates Download mp3 1,243k 2:38

  11. Mr Lam praised that elected-legislators all represented important interests of the society. Riase above political fray means taking into consideration all views. The 3rd term CE may consider inviting more legislators from political parties into the ExCo Download mp3 690k 1:27

  12. Mr Jasper Tsang argued strongly against the Preparatory Commitee's view that political parties only represented sectorial interest. Mr Tsang voted against Mr Lee's amendment because worse problem would arise. Mr Tsang has criticised the present system many times - no viable systems in the world where political parties have no major roles. Even the biggest party - Democratic Party - has only 1/5 of the seats, which is not a majority to support the CE. DAB also has survey/consultation to support its stance. Download mp3 2,547k 5:25

  13. Prof. Davis remarked that the CE does actually not rise above the political fray, because he has no actual support from the people of HK as seen in the recent events [Anthony Chua's background remark: the Article 23 saga, the Equal Opportunities Commission saga etc.] Download mp3 789k 1:40

  14. Mr Lam answered there were crises in other governments too around the world. With the Freedom Tour from mainland China, economic situation in HK was getting better. Mr Lam called for broad consensus to bring about the necessary reforms Download mp3 1,235k 2:37

  15. Closing Remarks from Miss Li Download mp3 882k 1:52

2nd Session (challenges to the political parties) :

Chairman, Miss Margaret Ng 吳靄儀 大律師

  16. Introduction of speakers and views, and asked the practitioners to answer 2 questions i.e. NOmination Committee and whether the political parties are ready to face the challenge of CE election by universal suffrage in 2007 Download mp3 1,134k 2:24

Speaker: Honourable Miss Audrey Eu, SC 余若薇 資深大律師

  17. Miss Eu agreed with Mr Lam that HK people have ingenuity, determination and good sense, and with Mr Lee that it was the best speech by Mr Lam so far. The actual situation in Article 45 includes the 7.1 rally having been voted as the happiest event, the Post-7.1 rise in voter registration, HK people was not political apathetic, political parties had great roles to play, survey by DP that 79% respondents wanted to have CE elected by universal suffrage. As Basic Law Article 39 includes ICCPR Article 25, election of CE by universal suffrage is a basic right and not a matter subject to consultation [NB mp3 from 3:01]. (1) Time is of essence - act now and ask the candidates for the 2004 Legco elections what kind of method for the CE election by universal suffrage; (2) unity of all concerned parties for a consensus on the methods e.g. the 2 methods proffered by the "Basic Law Article 45 Concern Group" Download mp3 4,947k 10:32

Speaker: Honourbale Miss Emily Lau 前線 劉慧卿

  18. Need to remove the reservation on ICCPR Article 25. Nomination Committee should not act as filter. Some more conservative people in the business community and others agree to Article 45 on condition that there is a filter. Need a year for genuine campaign from March 2006; hence should act now on consultation. Very rich and powerful people who do not support CE by direct-election. What criteria Mr Lam would use to gauge consensus? CE should share power with the political parties to form alliance for effective governance. Future development should be on multi-party politics. We are ready. Download mp3 5,335k 11:22

  19. Miss Ng commented on Miss Lau's speech as too long but was one of her best. Download mp3 278k 0:35

Speaker: Honourable Mr. Jasper Tsang Yok-sing 民建聯 主席 曾鈺成

  20a. Mr Tsang wondered why Miss Lau has not formed or joined a political party, and noted that the powerful people who did not support CE by direct-election, as mentioned by Miss Lau, were not in the forum. DAB "believe that there should be universal suffrage to elect the CE in 2007 and in 2008 the whole of Legco should be elected by universal suffrage. Having said that ... if there are no arguments against democracy and universal suffrage why are so many conditions set out in the Basic Law?" The conditions being actual situation and gradual and orderly progress. Mr Tsang said he had not heard objections to these conditions; just tried to interprete them [mp3 from 1:28]. ICCPR Article 25 refers to citizen's rights, while HK Bill of Rights Ord. Article 21 refers to current resident/person. Voting right is that of citizen, not of person [mp3 from 3:58]. In HK talks about resident, not citizen; to become a resident, nationality does not matter - this is actual situation in HK [mp3 from 5:00]. Even with a restrictive Nomination Committee, introduction of universal suffrage is a very significant step forward. Download mp3 4,600k 9:48

  21b. Mr Tsang considered himself a "little d democrat", despite Mr Lee's remark that DAB means Democracy According to Beijing. If a DAB member stands in CE election by universal suffrage, it will show DAB's commitment to democracy Download mp3 498k 1:03 [NB I've highlighted this segment for 本網頁自動播 mp3 automatically played on this webpage because it may represent the starting point for the consensus-building, as mentioned by Mr Lam, and the give-and-take process, as mentioned by Miss Lau.

  21c. Even in a restrictive Nomination Committee, the CE candidate in an election under universal suffrage could not hide any more, political parties could have greater roles, and the Nomination Committee has to be accountable to the people if it filters in the unpopular candidate(s). Call for constructive discussion with all sectors, including those opposing to universal suffrage, in order to achieve compromises Download mp3 2,553k 5:26

Speaker: Honourable Mr Martin Lee, SC 李柱銘 資深大律師 (民主黨)

[NB Anthony Chua left the FCC venue at 11:30am for the Dr. Sun Yat-sen Lecture in the HKU; hence apology to Mr Lee and the rest for not having recorded their speeches.]

Questions and Answers : Miss Christine Loh asked Mr Tsang about the right to vote of HK resident with foreign nationality.

See sources from various newspapers on 03.11.16 - available through search in wisenews:

曾鈺成支持 2007 年普選特首 指應有較嚴格提名委員會 , 2003-11-16 , 明報
法界民主派爭普選特首 , 2003-11-16 , 蘋果日報
Democracy debate gets off to a good start , 2003-11-16 , 南華早報網上版
Foreigners' right to vote questioned DAB chief sees impediment to universal suffrage , 2003-11-16 , 南華早報網上版
Chief executive election 'open to democrats' No political parties will be prevented from contesting the 2007 poll, says Stephen Lam , 2003-11-16 , 南華早報網上版
特首選舉投票權不擬改 , 2003-11-16 , 太陽報
政制事務局局長就政制檢討回答傳媒提問 , 2003-11-15 , 香港特別行政區政府新聞處(中文版) , 新聞公報
The above Press Release from Mr. Lam
年底訂政檢時間表 , 2003-11-16 , 香港商報 (no mentioning of Mr Tsang)
林瑞麟談零七年後選舉制度發展 循序漸進最終達致普選 , 2003-11-16 , 大公報 (no mentioning of Mr Tsang)
文匯報, 東方日報, TVB (no reportings)

Overall comments from Anthony Chua :

Although Mr Tsang opted for the restrictive Nomination Committee, while the rest of the non-governmental speakers opted for the non-restrictive one (提名委員會不應有「過濾作用」、篩選候選人), Mr Tsang skilfully and humourously put forward a lead for compromise as identified in the mp3 segment in para. 21b above. The fact that Mr Tsang speech was not reported in Takungpao (only Mr Lam's was reported), may be an indication that Mr Tsang's view may not be supported by the dominant sector of the pro-Beijing camp. Nevertheless I agree with the view of the SCMP that "Democracy debate gets off to a good start". Hope to see more debates organised by Justice Hk and other bodies.

B. 《基本法》四十五條關注組 Basic Law Article 45 Concern Group

- Opinion 1 dated Nov 2003 : Universal Suffrage can be introduced without amending Basic Law Article 45; but must need support of 2/3 majority of the Legco to be elected in 2004, and the Nomination Committee should not be very restrictive.

C. 香港民主發展網絡 HK Democratic Development Network

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