Da Big Picture

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>> On 4Feb Atheist_Divine asketh:
>> What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?
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 textman asketh: Well, well, and what have we here now? Another of *those* cyber-saints who quotes famous quotes by not so famous saints perhaps? One who quotes without even a nod of acknowledgement to the source perhaps? Oh, for shame! Does Atheist_Divine even know who first said that oh so sayable saying? Does he understand what the esteemed author meant when he wrote those words oh so long ago? ... hmmm?
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 Well, if not, it may enrich the reader to learn these things; or at least be reminded of them now and again. --> Way back round the beginnings of the third century a certain lawyer of Carthage named Tertullian converted to the Faith. At once he set about scribbling his thoughts down on papyrus, and he never seemed to stop; for such was his nature, being a lawyer and all, you know. And in these many scriblings from his fertile mind, he fought the good fight for the Faith. But being only a man he naturally wrote down some bad ideas as well as some good ideas. This is how it is among writers. Being a saint is no protection from ignorance, blindness, and plain ol stupidity.
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 And let me tell you something else about this cherished Tertullian chap of yours, Atheist_Divine. In one of his books he argues that only the true church holds the authentic traditions (passed along from the apostles, I imagine), and therefore only She has the authority to interpret scripture. The logical conclusion of these so-called facts is that believers have no need whatsoever to argue or even discuss such matters. Presumably Tertullian implies that the average believer ought not to concern himself with the effort of thinking about the scriptures, but instead should be only too happy to accept whatever crumbs of understanding the priests allow him! That's your hero right there, Atheist_Divine ... ???
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 But now let us turn more directly to the matter before us:
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CHAP.VII. -> PAGAN PHILOSOPHY THE PARENT OF HERESIES. THE CONNECTION BETWEEN DEFLECTIONS FROM CHRISTIAN FAITH AND THE OLD SYSTEMS OF PAGAN PHILOSOPHY. These are "the doctrines" of men and "of demons" produced for itching ears of the spirit of this world's wisdom: this the Lord called "foolishness," and "chose the foolish things of the world" to confound even philosophy itself. For (philosophy) it is which is the material of the world's wisdom, the rash interpreter of nature and the dispensation of God. Indeed heresies are themselves instigated by philosophy. From this source came the AEons, and I known not what infinite forms, and the trinity of man in the system of Valentinus, who was of Plato's school. From the same source came Marcion's better god, with all his tranquillity; he came of the Stoics. Then, again, the opinion that the soul dies is held by the Epicureans; while the denial of the restoration of the body is taken from the aggregate school of all the philosophers; also, when matter is made equal to God, then you have the teaching of Zeno; and when any doctrine is alleged touching a god of fire, then Heraclitus comes in. The same subject-matter is discussed over and over again by the heretics and the philosophers; the same arguments are involved. Whence comes evil? Why is it permitted? What is the origin of man? and in what way does he come? Besides the question which Valentinus has very lately proposed--Whence comes God? Which he settles with the answer: From enthymesis and ectroma. Unhappy Aristotle! who invented for these men dialectics, the art of building up and pulling down; an art so evasive in its propositions, so far-fetched in its conjectures, so harsh, in its arguments, so productive of contentions--embarrassing even to itself, retracting everything, and really treating of nothing! Whence spring those "fables and endless genealogies," and "unprofitable questions," and "words which spread like a cancer?" From all these, when the apostle would restrain us, he expressly names philosophy as that which he would have us be on our guard against. Writing to the Colossians, he says, "See that no one beguile you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, and contrary to the wisdom of the Holy Ghost." He had been at Athens, and had in his interviews (with its philosophers) become acquainted with that human wisdom which pretends to know the truth, whilst it only corrupts it, and is itself divided into its own manifold heresies, by the variety of its mutually repugnant sects. What indeed has Athens to do with Jerusalem? What concord is there between the Academy and the Church? what between heretics and Christians? Our instruction comes from "the porch of Solomon," who had himself taught that "the Lord should be sought in simplicity of heart." Away with all attempts to produce a mottled Christianity of Stoic, Platonic, and dialectic composition! We want no curious disputation after possessing Christ Jesus, no inquisition after enjoying the gospel! With our faith, we desire no further belief. For this is our palmary faith, that there is nothing which we ought to believe besides. -- from 'The Prescription Against Heretics' by Tertullian
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 So there you go; and very well said, to be sure. But needless to say, I think old Tertullian is full of sh*t; but maybe that's just me. This is chiefly because I am very well aware that the first words of the first New Testament document (ie. 1Th2:13+) were written right there in old Athens herself (ie. Paulos was afraid of the place); and if that plain historical fact doesn't impress Tertullian in any way, then of course he'll feel free to bite the hand that feeds him! Simplicity of heart is always a good thing, but neither should it disable the mind in the process.
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>> Here's to the sun God, He sure is a fun God, Ra, Ra, Ra
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 It's not Ra, you heathen swine! It's Yati (ie. of the
Glorious Light); who is the only sun-god worth knowing,
of course. ... And you'd best not forget it, sir.
btw: I love your avatar :) ... Where did you get it?
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                          - one who takes shots at the big boys -- textman ;>
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/ Topic >  Re: More Big Picture - 2 /
/ Newsgroup > alt.bible.prophecy / 7Feb2002 /
/ Forum >  TheologyOnLine - Philosophy & Religion /
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>>> On 5Feb02 freeontheinside wrote: <snipsome> If we shun
>>> the area of philosophy from our life as a christian I
>>> believe that we lose something.
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 textman agreeeth: Yes, we lose a lot! 
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> On 6Feb Atheist_Divine wrote: Textman,
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 textman looks: Wut?
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>> tx previously wrote: <snip> Another of *those* cyber-saints
>> who quotes famous quotes by not so famous saints perhaps?
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> Hardly a saint!
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 You don't think he merits the rank of sainthood? I do.
He was quite a character; and quite an influential
character too, you know.
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>> And let me tell you something else about this cherished
>> Tertullian chap of yours, Atheist_Divine. <snip>
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> I don't exactly 'cherish' Tertullian, but its a useful
> quote. And it was meant as a joke, hence the :) beside it.
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 I knew that :)
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>> Presumably Tertullian implies that the average believer
>> ought not to concern himself with the effort of thinking
>> about the scriptures, but instead should be only too happy
>> to accept whatever crumbs of understanding the priests
>> allow him! That's your hero right there, Atheist_Divine???
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> Well, look at what happens when you let laymen read the
> scriptures and interpret them for him/herself - lots of
> extremely strange ideas, cults, new religions...
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 Yeah well, I'm willing to risk all that (and more) for the
freedom and joy of spiritual liberty. Yes, there is a price
to pay for breaking out of the established traditions and
religions. It involves thinking for yourself, and taking
personal responsibility for the quality of one's faith.
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> From all these, when the apostle would restrain us, he
> expressly names philosophy as that which he would have
> us be on our guard against.
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 Of course, and he is certainly right to do so, for philosophy and science have always been (for the most part) hostile to Faith. But being on our guard is something quite different from an absolute rejection of philosophy and science. Moreover, the last two thousand years have shown the value and accomplishments of philosophy and science; and some saints have even shown that philosophy and theology can work together in harmony, and to mutual advantage (eg. Thomas Aquinas). So Paul is surely right to warn the average illiterate believer away from philosophy, but we should not forget that this same apostle also wrote this hopeful command: "Brethren, do not be as children in your thinking! Yes, be like babes in doing evil; but in your thinking, be mature" (1Cor 14:20).
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> Many new religions indeed use philosophy, or a mixture
> of the ideas of other faiths mixed in with Christianity.
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 Some people figure that the future of religion within the context of a computerized global village will involve more and more of this amalgamation, inter-seeding, and general mixing it up type behavior. Now while I agree that most of the great religions (along with the scientific and philosophical enterprise) do indeed have much of value to offer, I would not like to see the unique flavor of the Faith washed away under a tidal wave of spiritual mediocrity.
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>>>> Tertullian previously wrote: What indeed has Athens to do
>>>> with Jerusalem? What concord is there between the Academy
>>>> and the Church? what between heretics and Christians?
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> Don't you agree with that?
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 I do NOT! Athens was right there at the very beginnings of the New Testament, and indeed was herself the instrumental cause of the development of the Christian epistle (by the collaborative efforts of the Hellenistic-Jewish prophets Paulos and Silvanus). In light of that undeniable historical fact, how can anyone ever ask what Athens has to do with Jerusalem? . . . It has *everything* to do with it!
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> What need has Christianity, if it is from god, to bring in
> various bits and pieces from other religions? Yet it did so.
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 That is correct. It did so because it had to. 4X: The Faith adopted the Greek language of the masses because it was the best medium through which to spread the Good News to all the nations. Thank God the early Christian prophets did not think like Tertullian! If they had, there would not have been any Greek documents to collect together and make a bible out of.
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> Are we to assume that God liked pagans?
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 Why not? The Lord came into the world to save the sinners,
AD. He did not come to heal those who do not require a
spiritual physician.
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> Thought they had good ideas or *gasp* inspired those ideas?
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 huh? Wut U mean please?
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> Or that he gave incomplete revelation to the church,
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 A *complete* revelation is a contradiction in terms, and
would (in any case) be far too much for any infant religion
to swallow all in one go! Revelation is gradual and progressive
by nature, for it always waits upon the necessary background
rationalization of culture. The spirit follows the mind as
the mind follows the stomach! Men lead with their belly 
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> and they needed to supplement such a faulty gift with
> the ideas of other religions?
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 Growth always involves change and development. God is in process, just as His creation is always in process. We are a part of this same creation-in-process, and are ourselves creatures in process. Neither is the Word of God a static and frozen reality; as so many foolishly assume. If any religion, church, denomination, cult, or sect ever ceases to generate new ideas and new techniques, then that is the time to get out, for it is already a dead and dying thing, even as their members praise and thank God for their spiritual strength and vitality!
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>> <snip> and if that plain historical fact doesn't impress
>> Tertullian in any way, then of course he'll feel free to
>> bite the hand that feeds him!
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> Oh, I agree, the NT shows clear evidence of being
> influenced by Greek philosophy.
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 What I find very curious is that there is even some evidence to show that friend Paulos was familiar with the writings of Philo of Alexandria. I find this interesting because it suggests that at some point in his travels Paul may have studied in Egypt for a time, and may indeed have gone over there with the original Graeco-Jewish believers (ie. after they were forced out of Jerusalem). Apparently these intangible threads of philosophical connections have concrete historical implications.
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>> btw: I love your avatar ... Where did you get it?
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> Somewhere in http://www.mysmilies.com/
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 ha! great site, thx, AD.
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> You know, you shouldn't end your posts with an "x"
> (a kiss) or I might get the wrong idea  ~AD~
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 LOL ... Don't take it personally, pal. That little 'x' serves
two masters: 1) it functions as an EOF (end of file) flag;
and 2) it's a kiss for ALL the cyber-saints, semi-direct from
the Father of Lights his-self . . . What's His name again?
Isn't it Yati-something? 
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                   - the almost pharonic one - textman ;><
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textman
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