Comments Page!
From: Peter
& Kylie Coggins <[email protected]>
To: Sam Harris <[email protected]>
Subject: Duo-Art Tracker bar not so much! confusion
Hi Sam,
Just viewed your site, looks great! Your Stroud is very similar to ours, only difference I can see is that yours has a bigger tracker pneumatic and those two boxes left of the spoolbox are different sizes on ours whereas yours are the same size. Other than that they are the same! Yours also appears to be modified where the electric switch is, but you can easily see where it was.
I don't have a photo of my tracker bar but I can get one soon (once I buy a film etc. etc.). I think the real crux of the matter is that these DA's are different to what most people have seen, and that's either because they are very early and/or they are Stroud's.
The Stroud was a less expensive model than the Steck, Weber and ,of course, Steinway. The Steck I had was a bit more ornate and classy in the case but I thought that was where most of it stopped. I guess yours does not have a reroll system either. I guess I should have thought about it before, but I have a tubing diagram for "early model" DA's. Funnily enough, its not all that clear. It has no reroll system but the motor cutout switch does go to the RH motor hole (that ours don't have), but this diagram does not show the LH reroll hole at all. Now this way of tubing cannot work because the hole at the end of the roll is on the left hand side and is intended to put the player into reroll, or in our case, just turn it off. Its no big deal by not having this reroll, in fact it has a few advantages. Rolls that are torn just stop rather than being thrown into reverse, delicate rolls can be re-rolled under supervision rather than the machine doing it before you get a chance to stop it. And it's original so it's better to leave it that way. Anyway I have attached a copy of the diagram.
We only got the Stroud in May this year, we bought it from Darrell Clarke (also MMDer) who lives in Adelaide (1500km from us) and bought it home on a trailer! He has a later model Steck grand DA now, (assume normal tracker bar!) but he has a copy of an old DA booklet, that's where the drawing came from. He may have more info in that booklet that may help to clear up this puzzle. (well, its not a puzzle for us, ours is here working!!) Our Stroud is very original, Darrell was very particular about that, he even knew most if its history. The only change he made was to alter where the motor cut off pneumatic is fed from. Now it comes from the "play" side (rather than vacuum all the time) so when its re-rolling it does not cutoff when the roll finishes rewinding, as having the rewind brake slackened right off (another player essential mod) it used to cutout often while re-rolling whenever a bump or ripple occurred. I have tried it back to how it was, but soon put it back to the way Darrell had it.
Another point of interest, our Stroud has the DA "round" valves whereas most commonly (so I am told) that early DA's had cross valves until Aeolian dropped them later. My 1922 Steck upright had round valves too but Darrell's (I think 1924) Steck grand has cross valves. Apparently grands kept them longer than uprights.
Also the Stroud has much smaller pneumatics for the loud and soft pedal than the Steck has. I guess many small changes happened over the years, at least they didn't change the expression box and coding like Ampico! I will contact Darrell and ask him to look in his book for us. Hey, with Darrell, that makes three of us who have seen it!!!!
Bye, Peter
Here is my reply:
Peter,
Thanks for the info. And it was very nice of you to take the time to send the diagram. I will place it on the web site unless there is a problem. One of the reasons I want to do this is so we can find out just how many of these models are out there. Right now it looks like there are very few. About the valve plates, I have been praying that mine are round. I think they were the best and from what I have read I think a lot of others do as well.
Sam Harris - Greenville, North Carolina
From: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Duo-Art ID
Sam,
Herb Lindahl here from CT. I have seen this early Duo-Art up this way before. Have you looked up the age? The rewind mechanism is probably under the keys as they always were. Have you traced the extra two holes on the end of the tracker bar? Looks like a good and complete candidate for restoration. The pump is the smaller tugboat version. Good luck, and I will check back again.
Herb Lindahl
Here is my reply:
Herb,
Thanks for writing. How many of this type of Duo-Art have you seen? The serial number is # 33877 "Duo-Art Pianola" that puts it close to 1913 as far as I can tell. Concerning the reroll/replay pneumatic, I have traced the transmission linkage all the way to the keyslip lever and there is no pneumatic to manipulate it. Peter Coggins states his does not have one either. I do wish it had one. Instead of triggering a reroll it turns the power of to the motor. The tubes leading from the outermost holes lead nowhere. They were simply short runs of tubing and they were not connected at the other end. Thanks for letting me know my pump is the "small tugboat" type.
Sam Harris - Greenville, North Carolina
From:
[email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Stroud Duo Art
Hi Sam,
I visited your excellent web site, having found the address on our beloved MMD. I too have a Stroud Duo-Art awaiting restoration, and am glad to find you're working on the same project; I'm sure we can be helpful to each other. I copied all the photos you posted, and will make comparisons with my Stroud; I'll let you know if I find any differences. Mine does have the motor intact, and I'll send photographs and descriptions of it and to you. What is the serial number on yours?
Best regards,
Larry Lobel
Virtuoso Piano Service
Petaluma, CA
Here is my reply:
Larry,
Thanks for the nice comment about the site. I am going to be restoring this Duo-Art and I hope we can collaborate and help one another but, I'm not sure about when I will be able to start on mine. I'm glad to find someone who has an original motor and who is willing to send photos and a description. This Internet thing is wonderful. I can't wait to get the pictures. If you want to save the money on extra prints just scan the pictures and send them to me. Serial # 33877 "Duo-Art Pianola" As far as I can tell it puts it around 1913. Thanks for the reply. Look forward to hearing from you again.
Sam Harris - Greenville, North Carolina
From:
"BERLEY A FIRMIN II" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: DA
Hi!
Looks to me like the little holes could be tubed directly to the now-present tracking ear tubing. Perhaps this was a proposed factory trial that never really worked out. I have no idea what other function they could be for. Thanks for the interesting site! A few hours? wow!
Mr. Berley Antoine Firmin II
Here is my reply:
Mr. Berley Antoine Firmin II, I too believe the outermost holes are an unused tracking design. I hope to tube these holes to the tracking pneumatic when the restoration is underway. I will not destroy the tracking fingers though I may end up having to use them.
Sam Harris - Greenville, North Carolina
From: "Bill
Boulton" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Switch Pneumatic
The unit appears to have been modified. The rectangle you refer to is the original switch housing, similar to the housing that exists below the pneumatic. That setup does not look like an original.
Bill Boulton
Here is my reply:
Bill,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to the web site. You are not the only one who has said the switch has been altered. Thanks for letting me know that the original housing is the item I was wondering about.
Sam Harris - Greenville, North Carolina
From: Craig Brougher
<[email protected]>
To: Sam Harris <[email protected]>
Subject: The trackerbar thing...
Hi Sam,
I visited both of your new sites. Very nice. Ellen and I went directly to your family picture though and wanted to tell you that we appreciate your thoughtfulness in placing that on your page. Very nice, Sam and Anne. Gosh, one of these days I might try to do that, too. Right now, my time is taken up with other things that I can't seem to get done.
Sure enough, I think you have your answer from Peter, as to the efficacy of the trackerbar. It does look as though the Soft Pedal hole is where it should be, overall, but if it were mine, I would never get stuck with an automatic shut off at the end. I would figure a way to rewind that thing automatically.
I have put auto re-rolls on dozens of pianos in my time, most of which were never intended to have one, and shucks, I don't feel very bad about it at all! Neither do the people I did it for. (Chuckle)
Craig
Here is my reply:
Craig,
Thanks for taking the time to look through the restoration sites. I appreciate you kind comments. I appreciate you time even before this site was put up. I know it's hard to visualize something someone else is describing. I believe Peter's Duo-Art is an original and there have been a few more folks who have seen models of this type. I wold like to have a reroll/replay function and I may add it. Depends on how "original" I feel when it get to that point. Be sure to check back at the site. I have posted some pretty interesting things on the comments page.
Sam Harris - Greenville, North Carolina
From: Larry Norman
<[email protected]>
To: Sam Harris <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Duo Art tracker bar
Hi Sam
Well Its a good thing that I had not sent this as yet as I just looked at your site and see there is some differences in that tracker bar. I looked at the rubbing and it looks like there are two extra holes. How are they tubed? They may not be tubed at all? Looking at some of the pictures it does look similar to my upright. Except the switches on my spool box both of them are above the tracker bar. none below.Because this does look different than any that I have seen? I am curious about your switches in front of the keyboard? what do they look like? I will leave my write-up as it is.
My 1914 Steinway Duo Art tracker bar has the following next to the tracking ears which float and touch the paper on the sides and are not in the tracker bar it begins on the left side with a small hole which is the reroll, then a larger hole which is for the sustain pedal, then a wide hole for the theme, then the first 4 notes with the 4 expression ports above these notes. On the right side is the larger hole for the soft pedal which is quite close to the tracker ear. Next to it is a small hole which is the motor shut off, then the wide theme hole, then the last 4 playing notes with the 4 expression ports above these notes. So I think you have the same thing and it should be correct. If you pull a Duo Art roll over the tracker bar between the tracker ears the reroll hole and the soft pedal hole is probably about 3/16 of an inch from the edge of the paper. If the tracker ear is over this hole then it may be bent in which case you would see the bend in it and it would be pushing to much on the paper. I hope that answers your question?
Musically yours,
Larry
Here is my reply,
Larry,
The 2 extra holes on the outer edge are not tubed. There is a short piece of tubing on the tracker bar nipple but the edge is very cleanly cut and is connected to nothing. I have some more picture I need to have processed and they include views of the keyslip and the levers. I will post them on the Stroud site when I get them in. The arrangement you describe is much like the diagrams I have seen and as you can tell from the pictures here I have something a little different
Sam Harris - Greenville, North Carolina
From:
[email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Stroud Duo Art
Hello Sam & Anne
I don't expect to get around to restoring my Stroud Duo-Art for some time, either, so maybe our restoration work will coincide! After comparing your photos with my piano, there are some significant differences. I'll send pictures I took of mine today to you as soon as they're processed; please send me your snail-mail address. The serial number on my piano is 77xxx, making it about ten years newer than yours, from about 1924. My piano has the name Aeolian cast into the plate instead of Stroud, but the previous owner told me it said Stroud on the fallboard, before the finish was stripped off. The tracker bars look pretty similar. The bellows, expression unit and air motor look identical. The (reroll?) pneumatic on the right side above the head is quite different; the little box on yours that seems to be missing a cover appears to never have been on my piano at all; I think they changed the design. The transmissions also appear quite different. Also different are the boxes on the left side that are mounted on top of the head - I don't know what function these serve or what they're called. Yours has two little boxes; mine has one larger one. You'll see all these differences when I send you my photos.
Best regards, Larry
Here is my reply:
Larry,
I can't wait to get the pictures. I really appreciate it. Have you gone back to the Stroud Duo-Art Identification Site and looked through the comments page? I think you will find some interesting reading. You might want to copy some of the info for future reference. Concerning the boxes on the left hand side of the spoolbox Peter Coggins said they were different sizes on his. I believe on of the boxes is the logic for the tracking pneumatic. Thanks for all your help and be sure to check back every now and again to see the new comments.
Sam Harris - Greenville, North Carolina
From:
"RICHARD VANCE" <[email protected]>
To: "Sam Harris" <[email protected]>
Subject: Duo art switch
Sam;
Answering your question about the little box beside the switch pneumatic: This item does not get a 'lid'; it is where the switch should go. The original pull/on - push/off switch was mounted in a plate which gets screwed on to this block. One can see the screwholes in the pneumatic movable board where the switch actuating lever was originally attached. With the switch in this location, the manual actuating rod from the spoolbox would then be horizontal as it should be, instead of angled downwards Someone had to replace the switch and could not get a switch that worked 'pull/on - push/off', so they had to relocate the switch below the hinge of the pneumatic, so as to reverse the action. Another clue is the new block that was made to hold the replacement switch. It is clear finished or unfinished; whereas almost all internal components in Aeolian products, even from before this period, were finished with black shellac. I suspect that the rectangular metal plate into which the replacement switch is nutted may be the original one. Do the holes in its corners match up to the holes in the 'empty block'?
Richard Vance
Here is my reply:
Richard,
Thanks for taking the time to write. I have not inspected the switch cover closely enough to tell if the cover is the original. Until yesterday I did not know that the other box was the original switch housing. Next time I'm in there I'll look and see if it is the original cover. I hope it is because I would like to find a switch that would work as original and out it back in the original place eliminating the slant in the linkage. It bugs me that the pull in the spoolbox is at an angle. I noticed that there is a linkage support about 2/3 the way towards the pneumatic, was this support there in the original, if so this support may have been altered to work with the new angle.
Sam Harris - Greenville, North Carolina
From: "Steve
Greatrex" "
<[email protected]>
To: "Sam Harris" <[email protected]>
Subject: Duo-Art
I didn't get a lot of time to look at web sites. I saw your request for information on your Stroud Duo Art I think that you'll find it's an early duo art with no surprises.
Regards, Steve
Here is my reply:
Steve,
Thanks for your comments regarding the Duo-Art site. I will place your message on the comments page unles you tell me otherwise.
Sam Harris - Greenville, North Carolina
From:
"RICHARD VANCE" <[email protected]>
To: "Sam Harris" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Duo art switch
Sam,
After I wrote this morning before going to work; I got to thinking: The cover on the 'replacement' switch may not be the original, it looks a lot like the switch from an early Ampico drawer, which was on the left, linked to a lever that worked 'move left (push) - on'. This evening I measured the 'lid' on my Duo-Art. It is a plain rectangular metal plate; 3-1/8" x 1-1/8", with 4 screwholes on 2-7/8" x 7/8" centers, and a 3/8" hole in the center, 2" from the bottom. The switch is not fastened to this plate, but just fits snugly in the oval hole in the block; held in by the plate. 2 of the screws are 1/2"-#8 but the other 2 screws (lower-left and upper-right) are 2-1/"-#8, which go all the way thru the block to give it strength. I can't tell from the picture, but the screwing pattern in your instrument may be different, more closely matching the 2-screw parrern on the relocated switch. My particular switch is a heavy-duty item in a ceramic frame, typical of early electrical equipment. The 1/4" dia. has a hole in its center and a 2" piece of aprox #8 threaded rod soldered in. One leather nut and cloth punching can be ajusted to be pushed closed by the collapsing pneumatic. Farther out on this rod is a pair of leather nuts and punchings which loosly hold the L-shaped end of the handle-rod. In my instrument, there is no support bracket from the deck to the rod. The rod merely hangs there, supported at the left end by the bushed hole in the side of the spoolbox, and supported at the right end by the threaded switch handle extension. With the rod's action strictly horizontal, there is no stress on the switch, and no support is needed (and the switch would work much more easily and naturally). If your Duo-Had such a bracket, it must have been cut-off and redrilled for the modification
Your web-site is a neat idea; it is a lot easier to communicate with all the helpful folks at MMD this way, rather than exchanging letters where it may be hard to communicate physical details which under lie the rebuilder's questions.
Regards, Richard
Here is my reply:
Richard,
I really appreciate you going through the extra trouble to measure and send me the specs of your switch. I'm hoping to find a switch that I can use to restore the switching mechanism back to it's original design. I'm sure I can get a switch somewhere. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I believe the support bracket was added and is not original. I'm not sure of this but it would not be needed if the linkage was parallel. With the linkage going down hill the power must be redirected by the bracket in order to keep the switch from been too hard to throw. I'm glad you like the web site idea. I thought it would make it a lot easier to communicate if folks could see what I was talking about. The comments page is a lot more work than I had hoped for and I'm sure I could have set up some sort of a guest book but I did not have the time at first. Right now it's cut and past but at least this way I can hyperlink the words to the pictures.
Sam Harris - Greenville, North Carolina
Hi Sam,
Just remembered another difference with the older DA's. The mid and later DA's (like the Steck I had) have the DA switch and the sustain switch together in the spoolbox above the tracker bar, and the sustain is connected to the DA switch so that you have to have it on if the DA is on. On both our Strouds the sustain is below the tracker bar, has no connection at all to the DA switch, and also switches the soft pedal line as well. The later ones don't switch the soft pedal.
The Gearboxes are set out a bit different too. The early ones (like our Strouds) have the play gear on the outside of the spoolbox while later ones have the gear inside the spoolbox on the end of the takeup spool. A small shaft sticks through the side and engages this gear while in play.
To answer another of your questions, that switch rod support bracket is not original. the rod should be horizontal without any support bracket. Your switch is a bit of a puzzle to me! It looks just like the original one, with the original plate but remounted lower. The new mounting uses the same pull/ push action and is also the same depth as the original hole (unless they have bored it into the side of the piano!). You can see where the bracket that works the switch used to go on the pneumatic. You will have to disassemble it to under stand why someone moved it, maybe they shortened the wiring for some reason?? It does look the same as mine - used too!! I recently installed a replacement part from the PPCo. which is small enough to go into the original spot with the original plate. I still have the old one. The replacement is not really a very good switch either. Its appears to be (has no rating on it) a low voltage type, as the contacts don't have a snap action for breaking and making. Mine is working OK now but I don't really know how it will last. But your switch and plate does looks exactly like my original one!
I noticed that the diagram I sent you has a Temponamic lever shown. I have only seen that here on Weber's and Grands. Both the Stroud and Steck uprights didn't have this. This may, of course, vary from country to country, as the Weber's I have seen here are English with the single key lid, and the others are all American with the double lid type. You are probably aware about the Pedal / Electric DA (PEDA), it has a slightly different expression box design for the English and American models. Anyway that diagram might be specially for a Weber or something.
I found it interesting that Larry's Steinway (1914) has a reroll in it. Maybe the Steinway's had it before the Strouds - got it first because they were Steinways. Unfortuantely unless we can find an original sales brochure or similar we may never know all the model differences and times that new things came in. Perhaps after you have "solved" the Stroud DA puzzle you could turn your site into a general DA identification site for all brands, models and ages!! :):):)
Good luck! Peter Coggins - Australia
Here is my reply:
Peter
I have not checked the soft pedal switch yet. I'm not sure if it just switches the hammer rail or not. I'm out of town right now and I'll look what I get home. Thanks for letting me know you feel that the linkage bracket is unoriginal. I don't see the need for it if the linkage is straight. I have not looked close enough at the switch cover to see if it is the original or if it matched the original housing. I will check these things when I get home and place a report on the comments page. Concerning the DA identification site. I think you have a wonderful idea. Here is what I was thinking. How about if we make a fill in the black or a clickable form for all DA owners to register their DAs. There are a lot of things that need to be added to a list but we could fix a clickable web form that they could fill out and then the info could be posted in an organized manner by styles, models and dates. Also if the owners of these instruments would send images in or mail the photos to me we could include pictures of the specific models. Who knows, maybe this web site could lead to an illustrated book demonstrating the different types of DAs. The only thing about this is we would not get info from the many, many owners who are not online. One thought would be to run the form as an insert in the AMICA and MBSI publications and all the forms mailed in could be entered then. Well anyway it might work than again it might not. I would be willing to set the form up if I could get a few of you guys to help me decide what need to be included. Got to go have a great day,
Sam Harris - Greenville, North Carolina