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In this issue:
Re: Custom Leather Wear
Re: FWB 2602 Super Match
Re: Chamber reamers
Re: Eley Ultimate EPS
Re: Eley Ultimate EPS
Re: Eley Ultimate EPS
LH 2002CA for sale
Lead Poisoning
Polish shooting site
Internet postal competition
Inexpensive target changer
Shooting / eye question
Re: Shooting / eye question
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Michael:
This "might " be a replacement source for ISU style shooting coats . I have not dealt with them as yet ,but they can`t be any worse than Custom Leather.
Kazan Mohrs
http://www.airgunsonly.com/frames.html
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>Subject: FWB 2602
>
>A comment on your 2602 purchase: Working with my shooter
>yesterday, we finally determined the source of her prone struggles: her
>2602 cheekpiece is garbage. She has the one pole support model that
>is anchored by soft plastic knobs. We were going nuts watching groups
>shift around when I finally grabbed the cheekpiece to look at shifting it
>around and noticed that I could move it .25 inches in any direction with
>light pressure. It simply would not lock down.
>
>I have seen pictures of a newer model that has the two post version. If
>you have a choice, make sure you get it. I have not seen it in person, but
>it should be a tighter rig. I was so pissed off when I found this (relieved
>to have found a source of group shifting though) that I almost threw the
>damn thing down range. If it was my own personal equipment, I might
>have tossed it under some icy river.
>
>Have a nice holiday,
>
>Dave
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Hi there!
Whatever the the chamber is done with , it is a problem to get it "better" than the first reamer did.What I did was to change the lead a little,but significant.The chamber is supposed to engrave the bullet, but how much?One of the barrels (Lilja) had engraving all the way back to the crimp and I "touched" the chamber with a Freeland reamer made by JGS.I think the chamber was done with a Match reamer by the first owner.With the FWB original chamber I could clearly see that this was a wider and longer chamber, but still the Freeland reamer went in an created some "dust" on the cutting edge.The major difference was was the bore.With the Lilja barrel I had to take off the pilot to get the reamer inside, and with the FWB it "fell" inside.Major difference in boresize.I have also touched up a couple of Ans. barrels to see the difference and they don't collect as much dirt in the throat
area.My next reamer will be a 52D reamer that will replace the work of the Match and the Freeland reamer, I hope!It's already ordered from Southern Precision .
It looks like Lilja and Lapua is a good combination and FWB and Eley /RWS has become one for me.
�yvind
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> In the discussion of testing Eley ammo, this statement came up:
>
>Things to remember.
>4. Groups are expected to be better from the shoulder than in a vice!
>
>The same comment was also made by someone else on the Target Talk
>discussion board, can anyone explain why we should expect this? Does
>anyone have a guess how much the groups would shrink? Thanks.
>
> John E. Leslie III
> [email protected]
[Editor - I would say a lot depends upon how the barrel was held in the
vice. If it was in the normal stock, I would not expect the group sizes to
change that much. If it was just clamped on the barrel or action, it would
alter the harmonics. Many believe there needs to be free recoil to some
degree to get better groups though I don't know why. I know somebody whose
machine rest design bears that out - it shot much better after he lightened
it to get more recoil.]
********************************************************************
> [Editor - I would say a lot depends upon how the barrel was held in the
> vice. If it was in the normal stock, I would not expect the group sizes to
> change that much. If it was just clamped on the barrel or action, it would
> alter the harmonics. Many believe there needs to be free recoil to some
> degree to get better groups though I don't know why. I know somebody whose
> machine rest design bears that out - it shot much better after he lightened
> it to get more recoil.]
Part of making a rifle accurate is adjusting the bedding screws for best
accuracy. This in large part tunes the barrel vibrations to match the ammo
being used. Given the velocity of this particular bullet, you want it to
leave the barrel during a null between movements, so the muzzle is not
moving at the instant the bullet leaves. This null must occur in both the
horizontal and vertical directions at once, matching the bullet timing in
both directions, so considerable experimentation is sometimes required to
get it right. This will result in the best consistency from one shot to
another since there will always be small timing differences between
individual bullets but these will still be aimed in the same direction if
the barrel is not moving.
When the barrel is clamped in the vice, either directly or in a partial
stock, it has not been tuned to the ammo. So there is no reason to believe
that it would be tuned for best accuracy with that particular ammo, during
the vice testing.
The "best" lot of ammo will be the one that shoots best in the vice.
Although this will probably be a good lot for that gun, there is no proof
that this will also be the very Best lot after proper tuning in a hand held
stock, and no evidence at all that this lot will match the previously
determined best tuning which was tested with a different lot and perhaps
even a different brand of ammo. The shooter should carefully test the new
lot in the normally bedded rifle to ensure satisfactory accuracy, and might
need to change the bedding torques from the previous settings to match the
barrel vibrations to the new lot. Note that testing with the entire normal
stock in a vice will not solve the problem, since the rifle will still
vibrate differently in the vice than hand held.
If the new lot of ammo in fact tunes up well in the stock, someone might
find it to group smaller than the untuned barrel in the vice. This would
require both that the barrel vibrations in the vice did not fit well with
even the selected best lot of ammo, and also that the shooter is extremely
good.
Slight variations in bullet seating depth (when hand loading) are one method
of tuning the ammo to match the barrel vibrations. If the bullet barely
touches the lands, its initial movement will be retarded by the contact so
chamber pressure will be higher. Once it does move, this higher pressure
will result in a higher velocity, so the bullet will not exit at the same
time and will be at a different point in the vibration pattern. If nothing
else changes, the best seating depth in that particular gun will be the one
where the bullet exits the muzzle during a null in the vibration.
But other things do change. Tuning can also be done by variations in crimp,
or by adjustments to a barrel counterweight or action bedding screws or just
about anything. Lee (loading company) says a properly firm crimp (or correct
case neck diameter if no crimp is used) is necessary so the pressure can
build to a uniform, fully engaged powder burn before the bullet moves. If
this is done, seating depth is much less critical since light land contact
is not needed to arrive at the proper burn rate, this was already done by
the crimp.
The best accuracy will probably be found with a load that gives the most
uniform velocity, as measured with a chronograph, with little uncontrolled
jump from case to lands; and then the gun tuned (barrel weight, bedding
screws, etc) to match that load.
For .22, the load cannot easily be varied for overall length, so the chamber
must be cut slightly longer than the cartridge. This allows the bullet to
move as soon as proper pressure is developed, while forcing the bullet to
remain aligned with the bore until it is fully enclosed by the bore. An
unnecessarily large diameter chamber will allow the cartridge to settle off
center which is not good for accuracy, and likewise the chamber must be
exactly aligned with the bore.
But a chamber that does not allow the brass to expand and release the
bullet, is not just a function or accuracy problem but actually dangerous
because the high pressures can cause a case rupture. I believe this
condition is rare in .22s but it could happen with a match reamer that was
already undersized and then gets worn even smaller. This is similar to use
of a 3 inch shotshell in a 2-3/4 inch chamber; unfortunately it will fit,
but does not have room for the crimp to open and release the shot at normal
pressures. A chamber that is too short can also cause excess pressures,
because the bullet is already stuck in the barrel when the bolt is closed.
Once the chamber is the correct length and diameter to match the ammo used,
which should not vary much from one standard .22 ammo to another; then the
barrel vibrations can be tuned for best accuracy which probably will vary
with ammo choices.
BTW, I am quite sure that no amount of shaking will remove a single flake of
powder from the inside of a properly crimped and primed cartridge, in any
caliber. Although a substantial amount will fall out when the press fails to
load a primer or bullet in the cartridge!
- Benjamin
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Benjamin McLeod wrote:
>
> Martin Sinclair wrote:
> >
> > I've been to the Eley factory to test four or five times now; the EPS
> > is giving me the best results I've ever had (including my selected batches
> > of MIDAS L) namely my average over four groups of ten shots each, was
> > 12.6mm edge-to-edge.
>
> If your best lot averaged 12.6mm,
> 1. How consistent was it? If you shot another four groups, do you expect the
> 2nd average would be about the same?
Yes; it certainly seemed so. There were some batches where one group would be
very small, but others would be consistent and larger. Hence four groups.....
> 2. How bad was the worst lot you tested of the same ammunition?
A lot less bad than on previous occasions. Obviously, the disttribution
curve runs both ways; some batches will work very well with your barrel,
others will work really badly - i.e. worse than an average batch of
cheap ammo. The "other end of the distribution curve" has got a lot smaller.
Over the past three years, the really bad groups have got fewer and fewer,
and the bulk of the groups have got smaller and smaller. Eley have managed
to improve their production process, no doubt about it.
> 3. When several people run the test with the same lots of ammo, as
> apparently is usually the case; if each shooter ranked all the lots in
> order, would they tend to put the same lots near the top of their list, or
> are they completely random?
They are reasonably random; one batch selected by a British champion was
dreadful through my rifle. Lynda and I are lucky, in that our barrels
seem to like the same ammunition.
> 4a. Is the ammo they supply for their fussiest customers at the test center,
> the same as what they ship to people who don't have much choice, or are
> these pre-selected to be among their better lots?
They got a lot of flak from people who were convinced that "the best stuff
got sent abroad" (strangely, "abroad" were convinced that the best stuff was
being kept in Britain) or that "the best stuff was kept aside for top
shooters".
They listened; they stress, and I believe, that you get to test everything
that is available at the time; typically, about ten to fifteen batches
will still be in the factory waiting to ship at any given time, so you get
to choose from ten or fifteen batches of ammunition.
Essentially, you're seeing a "snapshot" of the production run - they can't
afford to leave tens of thousands of rounds of ammo sitting around in the
factory waiting to be tested.
It only gets shipped if it meets the "Tenex" specification; if it doesn't
meet the Tenex spec, then it gets sent out as "Match"; etc, etc.
(If the bullet head is silvery-grey, it came off the "white-bullet" line;
if black, the "black-bullet" production line. Tenex is selected from the
"white-bullet" line)
> I would love to make a trip to England to test ammo, but right now I am sure
> that time and expense would be better spent on a better gun and practice
> time.
Yup. I've got the advantage of living four hours drive from the factory, and
my sister lives within thirty miles of the factory.......
Martin
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Hi Michael,
I have a junior shooter who has quit competing and is selling her gear. She
has a pristine 2002 Alum. Stock (blue lam.) CA LEFT HANDED that she is
looking to sell. She shot the thing less than a dozen times (got it for the
Junior Olympics) and has the original box, receipt, paperwork, etc.
Do you know of anyone that would be interested in giving it a good home? If
it were right handed, I'd want it myself.
Michele
[email protected]
********************************************************************
RE: Lead poisoning, the majority of exposure to shooters is from airborne lead.
The primer contains lead compounds, and additional lead comes off the bullet as
it exits the muzzle. (More so from the bullet exiting a revolver cylinder,
entering the rear of the barrel, and then exiting the front of barrel.) Lead is
also liberated from rounds impacting the backstop. Even if a shooter does not
eat/drink/smoke in an indoor firing range, a significant amount of lead is
inhaled and absorbed through the lungs. Ventilate or filter the indoor air as
much as possible/practical.
A quick word about hygiene: Lead dust settles and sticks to skin and clothing.
Wash your hands before you eat, and leave your clothes away from your living
space. ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE SMALL CHILDREN AT HOME, KEEP LEAD-LADEN CLOTHING
AWAY FROM THE LIVING AREA. SHOWER BEFORE YOU PLAY WITH YOUR KIDS. LEAD IS
HIGHLY TOXIC TO CHILDREN WHEN THEIR NERVOUS SYSTEMS ARE RAPIDLY DEVELOPING.
Adults can tolerate a much higher body-burden of lead, but to the extent that
one can minimize any exposure, one certainly should.
Tom Neuser
Chet Skinner wrote:
Oh yes, do not remove the wax or paraffin from the bullet. It is
applied for the purpose of preventing you from lead poisoning through
the fingers. It also serves as a chamber pollutant.
********************************************************************
Hi Michael,
I have not contacted with you for ages [:(]
But owing presence on your mailing list I have been in touch with you virtually.
I am very satisfied now to share with you and all other respectable members
of your / our [:-)] mailing list with good news. We, here in Warsaw won very difficult legal battle to protect open field shooting ranges owned by our shooting club ZKS-Warszawa.
After we won terrible battle on legal basis on April, 1st(!), 2000 we have organized ourselves and reanimated shooting movement in our area.
I'd like recommend the Internet site documenting first full year of the activities:
http://www.geocities.com/wi-ko/st/zks
with some interesting links to international activities.
To increase understanding I have added as a first step few English translations.
Welcome to my site.
Merry Christmas for each of you and for your families
Wiktor
********************************************************************
You might know about this already, but I figured I would tell you
anyway. There is a site called Highnoon Postals. The address is
http://dune.pol.lublin.pl/~dch/highnoon/highnoon.htm They are based
in Lublin, Poland, but the matches start every month at "highnoon" in
New Mexico, USA. I'm not sure what the connection is between Poland
and New Mexico, but I don't think it matters.
The events are air pistol, air rifle, standard air pistol, free
pistol, free rifle, standard pistol, sport pistol, and centerfire
pistol. There are no prizes, but there are no entry fees either.
You use the standard or reduced UIT targets, and the scores are based
on your honor.
Check it out. It's fun to see where you stack up against shooters
from around the world!
Continued success!
Jim Bongiovanni
[Editor - this and a few others can be found on the Postals page of my site. If you know of one I'm missing, please forward the URL. Thank you!]
********************************************************************
Hi,
I developed a Target Changer for smallbore rifle (or pistol).
Infomation can be found in the following site:
http://ytd.hypermart.net/TargetIndex.htm
Thanks,
Eitan Barazani
********************************************************************
Hello Frank,
You have two eyes to work sixth sense...The physical eye that is the sensor and the mental eye that is the eye for the NDME to work with. The two are confused because the common shooter thinks in the conscious mode which lacks any direct neuron path to the neuromuscular systems for the necessary adjustments.
As you type the message you are working in the conscious mode with the advice and consent of the NDME.
With the physical eye you observe everything in the external world and you respond as best you can to this input.
But, input it is and never will it become anything other than that. It is a pictorial representation of any given object that exist out side of the human body. This is received and placed upon a queue for the use of the non-dominant mental entity. This information is also placed into temp memory pending mental analysis and acceptance or rejection.
Now to your question.......
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Wirtz
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:51 PM
Subject: shooting / eye question...
Hi Chet.... hope you don't mind an unsolicited email with a question about a shooting / eye issue.
I shot for 5 years in smallbore awhile ago (maybe 20 years) and dropped out of shooting to attend to less important things [:-)] I recently have started shooting service rifle and have just noticed a difference in the ability of my right eye that I thought was odd.
///This is normal as you are trying the best you can with limited information.///
When I sight my AR (rear apeture .042 with post front) with my right eye, I notice an area just barely touching the front post that is distorted quite a bit. If I move my head/eye/cheek weld just a bit, the blob shifts position but still seems to stay very close to the top of my post. This blob is most noticible in low light conditions, and considerably distorts the front post / target alignment. It sort of shows up as a dark hazy area in my peep sight. That is how I noticed it first... I had just cleaned my rifle and shouldered it for an offhand dryfire when I noticed this dark spot in the sight alignment. I thought it was something in the rear apeture, so I cleaned it, but to no avail.
///This will supprise you Sir. The blob you see is the mental PBE or Perfect bull-eye. This is very common. However, many physical shooters (those using the conscious mode) fail to note its passing. That is the big difference between the physical and mental athlete.
You should you use this feature to your advantage. Place it over the black blob called the bull down range. Try a couple of shots. Don't be afraid of its appearence but learn to work with it.
Our main problem is we can not chat with our brains or minds so this is the way it communicates with you. So is this a communication....? the question begs the question that does the image also have some light emotional feeling to it and are you receiving any type of sixth sense with it which is generated through kinethestic neuro responses. This will form an afirative emotion or you will receive an emotion of fear. If fear, break the circuit as the mental is telling you that something is incorrect and you will fire a loss or bad shot. If affirmative then learn from it and work with it until you fully understand its meaning and nature of operation. Basically you learn how to work with nature and the human body and its system. Do not fight them as all physical shooters do.///
When I use my left eye to sight with I do not see this blob at all... even under the same light conditions. Any idea what is up with this? I have just started shooting upper expert scores and have hit a plateau; I am hoping to not have to start shooting left handed :-)
///Yeh, you're OK and your mental functioning is OK. Just because something happens, don't get scared and run for the cave...look at it and try to understand it. then analyize it to understanding and then make it work for you. That is the mental way.///
BTW... I am 40 years old, and moderately nearsighted. This blob appears with different sets of glasses.
///Good this proves it is not a mental aberration and your mind is talking to you...Remember the mind works on the center of mass concept so the out side boundries mean nothing but to give shape and nothing more. Place this blob over the physical bull and fire a few shots to see what happens. Then with mental pictorial representations see your self making sight changes to the next one-shot-match.
Of course insure that the sights are tightly aligned with the bull and blob before firing.
A strange thing is at work here as you can make physical sight changes by twisting the knobs or you can make them mentally which transmits sight change from the NDME to the neuromuscular system for the same changes. You must master both so you will remove error in technique. With my past athletes I have demoed the two techniques so the shooting athlete fully understands the two sighting systems.
That takes care of this message session.
Thanks for any insight....Where do you live Frank...?///
Regards,
Frank Wirtz
********************************************************************
From: Joeph Sundra <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 10:04 AM
> Hi Chet,
> Thanks for the emails.I would like to wish your a very happy
> Holidayseason The university tgives the day before Christmas off plus I
> took the day after as a day off.
> Re the last message about the haze or blob in the aperature sight. I was
> once told that the haze is the optical center of the aperature. When
> your front sighnt is centered in the rear aperature and you a six oclock
> hold , the sight will have a unique visual picture. The ndme will give a
> perfect sight picture eqach time by matching stored images. That hazy
> dot is common . Looking through an aperature it is easily di8scernable
> with a little practice. It can be put to good use as you mentioned .
>
> Cordially,
> Joe Sunra
right you are.
The big difference is how the spot moves. This will tell you if it is sight
or mental. If the aptures are large enough you will not have the haze as
you indicated so this sight haze is in fact an indicator that the aptures
may be to small for the technique. The NDME haze is the results of the
kinesics feedback and informs you where the precise natural point of aim is
for that current position before shooting. If the NDME haze is off to the
left then that is where the muscles are adjust to and therewith becomes the
natural point of aim.
Have a good rest and Christmas.
Chet Skinner, Coach
Entity Sports International
http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/dome/4512/index.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UIT_COACHING
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End of UIT Mailing List #9
Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer
Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach
UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm
