To subscribe to the "real-time" version of the list send an email to uit_mailing_list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com In this issue: End of this version of the UIT Mailing List Re: Training without jacket/pants Re: Training without jacket/pants ISSF rule changes Warning for Mouche users Re: Blinders - new ISSF regs Re: Blinders - new ISSF regs Re: Blinders - new ISSF regs Re: Blinders - new ISSF regs Re: Blinders - new ISSF regs Rude shooters Re: Rude shooters Re: Rude shooters Re: Rude shooters Re: Rude shooters Re: Rude shooters Horst Screiber's comments on future of the sport Re: Horst Screiber's comments on future of the sport ******************************************************************** ATTENTION! I have decided to discontinue this version of the UIT Mailing List. Last Saturday I redirected my life to God and family so I'm shedding the baggage that is holding me back. The "real-time" version will still exist so I suggest those of you who wish to continue to participate in this forum to subscribe to that version (see instructions at the top). You should receive a message explaining various things you can do and how to use the group. You can set it up to either receive real-time emails, daily digest emails, or no email (ie, you read the messages online at your convenience). I will do a short grace period so there will be 2 more issues of this version while people transfer their membership to the other version. I believe this forum has been a valuable resource to the competition shooting community over the years. Lots of excellent information, tips, and discussions have taken place. The real-time version has been up for over a year now and echoes what has gone on here. It's just not formatted as nicely, has a "noise" post every now and then and sometimes has little ads in the footer of the messages. So I hope you all decide to switch over to the real-time version on Yahoo Groups. Sincerely, Michael Ray ******************************************************************** Michael, On the issue of training with no special clothing.........Although I have not competed for many years, I did spend many years shooting full time. My coaches always emphasized developing sound, fundamental positions using strong bone support, little muscle, and good balance. The addition of specialized shooting clothing was to re-enforce and add additional stability to an already developed strong, solid position, NOT be the basis of support for the position. I know it will cause a lot of concern within the shooting community, but the ISSF is looking very hard at limiting the clothing allowed. As an ISSF and USA Shooting competitions official, I have long felt that we are being to generous during equipment inspection. Read the rules....pants and jackets should fit loosely! Not be like straight jackets. See you in Atlanta! Allen Harry ******************************************************************** I stand by my comments. One is essentially training for two different situations by training with and without certain pieces of equipment. I do understand what you are saying. I simply do not think your conclusions logically follow from your premise. There are simply to many differences for this type exercise to be effective. Would you have a shooter periodically shoot prone/kneeling without the sling simply to get the feel of the position? Probably not. The changes in the support mechanism would be so drastic that little, if anything, would be learned. The only true lesson one would learn from such an exercise is to be darned sure to bring the sling to the range. By adding the jackets and pants, we are clearly trying to change the position. If we didn t think the change was a vital one to make, why would we spend the equivalent of two full cases of top shelf ammunition to make the change? Given we have spent the approximately $1500.00, why train the old way if we never intend to use that method in any productive way, such as a competition? It simply does not make sense to do this. I do not believe the clothing is stiff enough to dictate the position. I do believe that it does mask some things, but that is what it is designed to do. And because of this intent, we spend the big bucks. Now, I do completely agree that position awareness and awareness of what various components of your body are doing during any given performance is absolutely necessary. One must be aware of heart activity, breathing, muscle tension, etc, while performing. One must be able to correct deficiencies in these areas on the fly. Not to be aware of and not to be able to correct inadequacies will most certainly lead to a poor performance. So, what we are really at odds about is the method to train this mind to body connection. I still maintain that there are much better ways to do this than to have an athlete train without equipment. I gave you two techniques in my previous response; the position inventory and the muscle group awareness exercise. I have since retrieved Bob Hickey s book and reviewed them. The book was the one copyrighted in 1979, not the more recent, which I believe is orange in color. I have not seen the newer one to read it, but the exercise might be described therein. Also, I am not sure that the edition I have is still available. The exercise that is most applicable to achieving the results you are trying to achieve by shooting without the clothing is called selective awareness training. The description of this exercise, alone, encompasses fifty pages, nearly 20% of the book. I scanned the first page and ran it through the OCR software and have attached it as a .RTF file. It will give you some idea of where the exercise is going. You will note that this exercise is done in a swimsuit. This, along with a mirror, allows the athlete to observe most of the muscle groups when the various tensions are applied. As you implied, I did not make it clear and would emphasize that this is not a shooting exercise. In fact, this technique can be used in any activity requiring precise physical control. I have even used it in flight training with my student pilots. What is learned from the exercise can be transferred to the shooting phase of training, with full clothing, in order to confirm one s findings and to refine the information and resulting techniques. As always, the athlete s observations should be recorded in his journal for future reference and comparison. Regards, Lt. Stephen B. Flatt, USNR [Editor - I guess we'll agree to disagree. Since I don't have the book you mention, I can't give my opinion of how well I think this would accomplish what we are after and how close it may mirror our method. I will say, however, that our method is far simpler if it took 50 pages to describe the exercise.] ******************************************************************** Allen Harry wrote: >I know it will cause a lot of concern within the shooting community, but >the ISSF is looking very hard at limiting the clothing allowed. As an >ISSF and USA Shooting competitions official, I have long felt that we are >being too generous during equipment inspection. Read the rules....pants >and jackets should fit loosely! Not be like straight jackets. I don't see any need to modify the present clothing standards. However, if they want to do clothing modification for the purpose of making consistent good shooting more difficult, then they should do like pistol shooting and silhouette rifle shooting and just eliminate the special shooting clothing entirely, possibly allowing some kind of inexpensive harness to hold up the sling on the arm if the rules committee thinks necessary or an ordinary sweat shirt. This would make the sport more realistic and at the same time open it for more competitors, especially beginners. If this would cause injury to competitors with heavier rifles than they can lift, the weight of the rifles could also be restricted - or at least, the shooters would probably switch on their own when they find they do better with controllable rifles. - Benjamin McLeod ******************************************************************** At the recent Sydney World Cup the attachment of the shoulder straps ( to take up loose material ) on Mouche Jackets was deemed illegal on two counts. 1) The lining is attached to the outer at other than a "Normal Tailoring Point". 2) The flap created by "pinching" the shoulder material and attaching the straps was deemed to be a "Zipper". The rules allow for a Zipper or Straps not both. Shooters had to disable their straps or modify their jackets to compete. Although one competitor did appear to use their jacket in the manner originally intended by the manufacturer. It is sad that it has taken "12 years" to identify this non-conformance, it was suggested to me that our current technical officials can read, presumably this means the earlier officials couldn't. Bill Henry Brisbane ******************************************************************** re: ISSF rule change re; hats , blinders. It doesn't surprise me that the ISSF has announced these rules. It's very similar to their unilateral decision to reduce the 3-p changeover time from 15 min. to 10 min, turning the event into a speed-shooting contest . Is there an Athlete's Rep on the ISSF? If so, can this person be woken up? Requiring shooters to abandon hats with flaps, reduce their side blinders, etc. is totally unfair and inconsiderate to shooters who put hours and hours, and many dollars and other sacrifices into training under normal conditions. During the Men's air rifle event in Sydney, despite there being numerous signs posted in the range asking for No Flash Photography during the match, cameras were constantly flashing during the match. Without my blinders, etc. it would have been even more distracting than it was. The ISSF is obviously deluded into thinking that making these changes will somehow increase the interest in our sport. What i think it is about is a bunch of whiny photographers who have to work hard to get good pictures. I guess we know where we shooters stand... On the whole 'naked shooting ' debate, i think alot of the misunderstanding arises from someone's statement that new shooters who strap on shooting jackets too early in their learning of the sport will be held back from feeling the true inner position by the constrictive feeling of a jacket. That person was suggesting that clothing should be introduced once the shooter understands the importance of being balanced and can find the right position for them without a shooting jacket. However, that person was misunderstood due to poor use of words. I feel that once a shooter has progressed to the point where good scores are being shot, introducing gear is ok. this event should not be delayed too long as strain or injury can occur quite quickly due to the awkward requirements of all three positions. Wayne Sorensen Canadian Rifle team ******************************************************************** Hi Michael, On the subject of hats and blinders, I was at Sydney also and there was a bit of eyebrow raising from the shooters about this situation. It must be coincidence but we are about to add a product to our www.shootingstiff.co.nz website that is a visor type of blinder that goes onto your shooting glasses, I am sorry to those of you who dont use glasses, we are working on this. I should have something to look at on line by the time this goes out to the mailing list. Sean McCabe www.shootingstuff.co.nz ******************************************************************** Just catching up on some of the list things coming through. I too have seen the proposed changes to the headgear rules to please our "friends" in the media. I have very grave concerns about this from 2 main points of view. Firstly, unless the ranges can guarantee that there are no inequalities in lighting across an outdoor range (which I would say is unlikely), it seems grossly unfair not to allow athletes to use hats, side flaps and blinders to produce optimum light conditions for themselves to allow them to perform to the high level they have trained for. Secondly, but perhaps more importantly, as well as competing without this protection, athletes will have to also train without it. This means that over a protracted period of time, the eyes will be exposed to excessive amounts of light from glare from targets and concrete walls which are likely to have long term detrimental effects on eyesight. In these days when we are all being encouraged to reduce our exposure to the sun and to protect our eyes from bright sunlight, how can our international governing body seriously advocate a change which will damage participants. In our increasingly litigious world, are they prepared to meet the potential liability of legal suits?....... In any event when someone is behind the sights of a rifle, no-one is going to see much from a camera shot anyway. I think that this is just one step too far in trying to appease the media. Shirley ******************************************************************** Here is my two cents on this whole blinders thing. If the ISSF actually changed the rules to appease the media, then they were very stupid. Has anybody checked the ISSF website to see what they say about this whole thing? Changing the rules to make a cameraman happy, or to "gain more media coverage" is not a good reason. If the cameraman wnats to get some "action" good shots, then let him not interfeer with the shooters. If he, or she, wants photos of the shooters faces, then pose some "action" shots after the event. I'm sure all of us would accomodate that, not that I've ever had MY picture taken for a shooting sports magazine! The way this discussion is going on this topic reminds me of a pushy photographer at a wedding. You know the type. He's the one that ends up running the wedding just so he can get good pictures, instead of being unobtrusive and getting shots Granted the pictures will be nice, but the experience of the wedding party is ruined. Anyway, that's my take on the whole discussion. I've never been to a major international sporting event (shooting or otherwise), and the only way I'm getting to the any ISSF, USA Shooting, World Cup, or Olympic event with my shooting is with a ticket! ******************************************************************** Haha.. with a ticket. I agree with you completely Jim, and I am in the same boat, that is, if I can afford the ticket in the first place =) Changing rules to satisfy the media is absolute nonsense. Rules are designed to aid in FAIR competition not to aid in getting a nice picture for a magazine! Just my 2 ˆ worth =) ~ Vince Joaquin ******************************************************************** In my experience most top level shooters have lacked the personable and social attitudes that should be implemented. They for the most part are rude and full of themselves instead of being concerned with the shooting and public community. After completing a competition, cleaning the rifle is not the most important item on the list but social commingling among the public and press is the order of the day... Chet Skinner, Coach ******************************************************************** Hi Chet, Only thing is - a shooter develops a great deal of psychological momentum during a match in which they have been focused enough to win. Therefore it takes some time to disengage afterwards. Not a particularly good time to be socialising and presenting for the media. Probably the best socialisers and mixers at that particular time are those who did not actually win. With poor concentration they can easily engage in social discourse immediately after the match. The simple process of rifle cleaning is like a form of follow-through after the match which allows a smooth finish over the last dozen or so shots, and an easy disengagement from the focus of match-winning performance. Tom Mulvey ******************************************************************** Well Tom, I agree with you on a lot of the idea but Golfers have the same problem and they find a way to do it with the News people. The major training factor here is that the athlete must also train for such occurrences and that is social discourse and follow through to the locker rooms. Many of the elite shooters are very shallow in this respect. This is over all the main problem with our athletes. Get the gold and get the money...the heck with the public relations... :-) Chet Skinner, Coach ******************************************************************** Some thoughts... If there was press at the rifle events at the ISSF World Cup in Sydney over the last couple of weeks they were not apparent. Also, those cleaning rifles were at least available on the range for the press to talk to long after most had beetled off with their kit. Even at the finals I didn't see activity related to press. There was _one_ still photographer wandering around for the whole time but it is not clear if he was from the press or what. Most of the shooters were seriously intent on the job at hand but I would not say that they were rude when approached. In particular I would give top marks to the Japanese team for giving one of the gounds-keepers a hand picking up some garbage (due to a busted garbage bag) and loading all the kit on and off of our bus. The shooters from Oman also offered me one of their positions on the range for training, and a German fellow I talked to seemed reasonable enough. Also when leaving Aus. the team that we through customs with for the export stuff was quite friendly (not sure what country though). The USA shooters did seem to stay in their own circle but I guess I had no reason to chat with them. Is an ISSF event a purely socal/entertainment thing or a shooting competition? Is this "manditory" change also going to be imposed upon other sports that employ vision protection which hides the face while competing? Sports like skiing, bobsledding, cycling, swimming, hockey, etc. come to mind. I am new to this level of competition and to my simple-minded way of thinking the rules should be there to ensure a fair game not to provide "face" to the media. Imposing unfair restrictions to appease media that isn't there just doesn't seem right to me. Is this "normal" for the ISSF? Mike (Canada) ******************************************************************** >I for one have >never encountered a shooter who was intentionally rude or >even impolite. I've had the head of the US team get me to the >range in Munich when I'm theoretically on an opposing team, >I've spent time watching and trying to learn from other >country's shooters, and in the eight years I've been >shooting, the only shooter I ever came across who I could >even call rude is a particular 13-year-old Irish Junior - and >he'll grow out of it. > >-- >Mark [Editor - I would have to agree. All the shooters I've ever spoken with have been quite receptive to the questions I have asked of them. I will say though that there seems to be a clique-like air at the major matches I've attended (USA) where the top shooters stick together. I have not witnessed the top people proactively seeking to help those below them (outside a clinic setting, of course), yet I'm certain that if someone asked them a question, they would provide all the help they could. It's just that the aura may intimidate enough that the questions won't get asked. I know it has for me sometimes since I'm often shy - I'll usually wait to catch someone when they are alone. For this reason, I have often gone up to juniors who seem to be having difficulty to see if they would like some help. My offer hasn't been turned down yet.] ******************************************************************** The USA shooters did seem to stay in their own circle but I guess I had no reason to chat with them. ///Your correct and this is incorrect for them to be this way. Is an ISSF event a purely social/entertainment thing or a shooting competition? ///Yes it is purely social and entertainment for the athletes. Yet in its time, purely competition and yet not competitive. A play on words but in fact each competitor is a competitor unto themselves and no one else on the firing line. Each shooting athlete is a study of the internal turmoil of eliminating their personal errors during the shooting technique. So in the end it is social, entertainment and competition. Is this "mandatory" change also going to be imposed upon other sports that employ vision protection which hides the face while competing? /// If it hasn't it should as all sports have the same problem and not one of them can get by without insisting upon improvements in this area of human endeavor... Chet Skinner, Coach ******************************************************************** From an interview of the Secretary General of ISSF, Mr. Horst G. Schreiber by the Chinese News Agency (the official news agency in China) in Shanghai during the World Cup, he mentioned that the ISSF is considering the feasibility of turning most shooting matches, except clay, the use of a laser scoring system to replace pellets or live ammos. Something like the system used by the army or marines in drills or some indoor wargame shooting range. The point is in order to make the shooting sports popular, ISSF is thinking of the restriction that a large number of governments imposed to own or import firearms. This could make more people have their hands on shooting (?) because the new pistols or rifles will not have a mechanism to fire or propel anything. It will only be a grip install with battery compartment and a rod sticking out equipped with a laser device. A computer will calculate and display the score. More details will be disclosed on a meeting of the ISSF in July, Finland. If that is the case, can you call ourselves shooters anymore. Perhaps the next generation of world class shooting devices may be Laserarms, PP shooting (point to point) but not Morini, Steyer, or FWB. I still remember 20 years ago, there was a kind of shooting game in the TV Game halls that you try to shoot trap and double trap to a screen. Perhaps not long in the future we will be doing the same thing again. The original message can be seen on the link below and you can use the below site to translate it back to English. http://world.AltaVista.com/ ******************************************************************** Mr. Schreiber was asked to clarify his comments later, and this is what he told Scott Pilkington. Basically he said that he was both misquoted and mistranslated. There was and is no attempt at the present time, to do away with traditional shooting events, air or powder. He said the person interviewing him didn't speak English well, and certainly didn't understand our sport, so there was quite a bit of room for error. Where the misunderstanding came from was when the interview was closing, and the interviewer asked about the future of the sport. Schreiber said that one of the concepts that the ISSF was considering in an effort to broaden the overall appeal to the media was trying to integrate a running event with a shooting sport. This is based on the idea that in the Winter Olympics, biathlon gets a lot of coverage worldwide, even in the US, where the Summer Olympic shooting events get zero coverage on TV. To further broaden the appeal to today's youth, who are all so technology oriented (can you say Game Boy?), the concept of having an electronic rifle or pistol is being considered. This has a number of positive aspects. It doesn't look like a carbon-copy of a winter event, (can you say Summer biathlon?), It can be performed anywhere, perhaps even downtown in the big arenas where the runners come into the stadium or arena to do the shooting part and because it can be set up very quickly, so it broadens our audience tremendously. Of course it allows countries that have strict firearms (and airgun) laws, to compete in shooting type event, the more countries that ISSF has competing in any of it's sports/ disciplines, then the better off all those sports will be. And lastly, the most obvious benefit, is giving us (the audience) the ability to see all the moves and shakes that it really takes to make a good shoot. So overall, he sees this idea as a way to further enhance what we have, not take anything away. ******************************************************************** End of UIT Mailing List #25 Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm