Please e-mail address changes, unsubscribe requests, or submissions to me. To subscribe to the "real-time" version of the list send an email to uit_mailing_list-subscribe@yahoogroups.com In this issue: Re: Iris and apreature ring width sizing Re: Training without jacket/pants Wanted - sights (UK) Re: Wanted - sights (UK) Re: Wanted - sights (UK) Re: Wanted - sights (UK) Dry eyes Re: Dry eyes Re: Dry eyes Air rifle measurements RF pistol near LA Air rifle balance Re: Air rifle balance When things go wrong Hammerli rear sights Belt or braces? Re: Belt or braces? Re: Belt or braces? Shooting glasses Re: Shooting glasses Re: Shooting glasses Re: Shooting glasses Re: Shooting glasses Re: Shooting glasses Re: Shooting glasses Re: Shooting glasses ******************************************************************** Hi Michael, re last post, it's nice to finally see a shooter with talent and proven results respond to shooter's technical questions. I totally agree with what Ken Johnson said about front and rear aperture sizes. If i may try to simplify the back aperture thing, when i started shooting, my dad told me 'close down the rear aperture as dark as it will go, then slowly open it up and stop as soon as you can clearly see the sight picture'. I have used that advice all my career and it's never been wrong. You do have to err on the 'dark side', to reduce eye fatigue over the long stretch. Re front sight, the inner aperture size will be determined by many factors, such as the relative color of the target paper ( for example i found that NRA single bull targets are darker than Edelmann paper, for instance), the amount of ambient light in the range relative to the amount of direct light on the target, the intensity of the direct light on the target. shooters need to be aware of the environment they are training in, relative to the one they compete in, to understand the differences and how their performance is affected by them. (that's a plug for using a shooting diary - shooting is all about DETAILS, and only a diary will help you remember them). Also, some air rifle shooters insist on not wearing a shooting hat. This allows more ambient light to affect their vision. Shooters need to experiment to understand the pros and cons of wearing a shooting hat. Wayne Sorensen ******************************************************************** Hi Michael, In terms of the subject of training without shooting clothes, let me just say it should be done very sporadically,so that the shooter can appreciate the mechanics of their position when reduced to street clothes, but watch out for straining the body!. Perhaps something can be learned by doing this, no-one can guarantee that the shooter will be able to identify anything. The other thing is whether this will help in Prone, as so much of this position's dynamics is based on the sling and the support of the jacket, and a shooter can't really wear a sling and hold a match rifle without a jacket. I have a question - when shooters are told to shoot at a big piece of black paper to help establish a group, what is the feedback mechanism for each shot? Or does the shooter simply blast say 30 shots down range then find out they are all over the paper and wonder why and what to do to correct it? Seems to me conceptually it makes sense, but operationally it doesn't function. thanks Wayne Sorensen [Editor - I agree on the first point regarding sling and jacket in prone, which is why removing the rear sight is a good suggestion for that one. In standing though, the shooter should gain some benefit of advancing their kinesthetics and feel for the inner position. There may be some minor strain, but if it's noticeable, that may also suggest they use an extreme position for some reason and may want to investigate less straining options. If there is much strain to start, jacket/pants are not going to remove it over the long haul so they may be damaging their bodies. As for your second question, again it is the feel of the position that is the feedback. If the shots are all over the paper, you don't have a good grasp of your position. At first my freshmen (no shooting experience) would have large groups (3+ inches in air rifle) and they continued to get better as they got used to their positions to where they were less than an inch by the time I stopped 2 months later (it wasn't only shooting on black paper either). They were supposed to go solely by feel and break the shot when they sensed the movement stop, regardless of where they thought it may be pointing. Had I been able to spend more individual time with each of them, I'm sure they would have been even better. So my opinion is it works just fine in practice. I will be doing it again next year and will likely spread it out more over the season.] ******************************************************************** Before I go and spend my cash on new set of sights ... have any of the UK list members got a Anschutz rear sight for sale? .. its for 100 yards so 20 click would be nice ... but im not fussy. perhaps someone in your club is selling a set? please feel free to pass my email adress on. I find sighting in at 100yards to be a real pain, a set of sights set for 100yards would save a lot of bothersome messing around. Its not so bad going from 20/25 indoor to 50m .. but the 100yds always seems to take me an age of sighting shots to get dialled in .. not what you want in a competition. -- Robin Szemeti ******************************************************************** have you tried a stepped foresight block?? all these are, is a foresight block that is half high (for 50's) and half low (for 100's)all you do is move the foresight from one step to the other when you change distances this is one option the other option is a "kelly" foresight which has a cam style system. for a change in distances simple loosen the tube and turn it 180 degrees, the only problem with these are you can only use plastic foresight element (not the standard metal ones) these usually come with a sprit level hope this helps you out i'm sure these are the cheaper options Michelle ******************************************************************** > have you tried a stepped foresight block?? > > all these are, is a foresight block that is half high (for 50's) and half > low (for 100's)all you do is move the foresight from one step to the other > when you change distances this is one option I have thought about it ... the only downside is that unless the step is exactly right, then you end up fiddling with the elevation anyway ... which kind of defeats the object .. I'm not too worried about upsetting the 50m settings as I can usually sight them in within half a dozen shots no problem .. but the 100yds I find very tricky as its not always easy to see where the centre of the group really is and which ones are windblown etc. (and my 100yd groups always seem a bit ..hmm .. poor .. need more practice I guess ) > the other option is a "kelly" > foresight which has a cam style system. for a change in distances simple > loosen the tube and turn it 180 degrees, the only problem with these are > you can only use plastic foresight element (not the standard metal ones) > these usually come with a sprit level The problem with Mr Kellys' foresight is err .. well .. Mr Kelly .. who I understand is ever so slightly dead. I have had a look around for them and I haven't seen a secondahnd one yet .. but .. if the worst comes to the worst, I have a lathe .. I could have a go at making one ... the best point about moving the foresight instead of the rearsight is you can use the same cheekpiece position too .. and I wouldn't have to move my Gehmann spirit level from the reciever rail to the 'scope mounting block to be able to see it at 100yds ... > hope this helps you out i'm sure these are the cheaper options thanks, perhaps i will try a simple raising block and see how it works out .. they certainly are cheaper than a new rearsight .. I am tempted to try the Gehmann 594 'wind sight' .. but am a bit concerned that without an iris it might be more trouble than good ... and at 250 GBP (380 dollars?) it would be a very expensive experiment! Anyone else used the Gehmann 594 and care to comment? -- Robin Szemeti ******************************************************************** 1st i have a friend who is an engineer and makes and sells kelly foresight at £70 with sprit level £55 without 2nd i've got one of those Gehmann sight and they're great i can't stress that enough well worth a try if you go to appleton in july (on the sunday) i will show you mine if you wish (i was a appleton this weekend too but on the sunday i believe you went on the saturday) e-mail me if your interested in the kelly sight and i will send you the blokes telephone number Michelle ******************************************************************** Seems my eyes get dry ,and i need to blink at the worst possible time while shooting,is this a common problem when your eyes are under strain ? does any of the eye solutions really help?i've tried several with no luck. any one have a cure ? jim [Editor - If you wear contacts, you may experience more problems. Of course, my experience with them was a decade ago and I'd guess they are better now. I've worn glasses since then. Your eye shouldn't be under strain though. If you feel that way, your performance likely will decrease over the course of the match. If you're shooting pistol, you need to focus on the front sight *naturally*, which requires a +.25-.5 lens for many people. It shouldn't matter much for rifle since you have the rear iris. In that case you may be letting in too much or too little light or you may be using an aperature that is too small (<3.6).] ******************************************************************** As a recent convert to contacts, I still find that I can avoid blinking for the time required to execute the shot and follow-through without any discomfort. Is it possible that you may be trying to focus for longer than is comfortable/necessary? To avoid dry eyes, I've had the most luck with the "tear replacement" solutions. Steve ******************************************************************** Dry Eyes and Blinking Blinking is PERFECTLY natural. In fact there is good reason to suggest that if you ain't blinking, you aint. shootin anywhere near your potential! The only way eyes are lubricated is through blinking and crying. Crying makes shooting really really difficult so that leaves blinking. Proper body hydration is extremely important in shooting. I have info that suggests that the eyes are the first part of the body to suffer from dehydration. A hydration regime is recommended. One tested and found useful on myself and some shooters is to drink many glasses of water the day before. (Many equates to around 3 litres over the day) Going to the loo is a normal occupation on days like this. Stop about 2 - 3 hours before bed. That way at least you'll empty before sleeping. If there is time in the morning a couple of further glasses to top up but none 2 to 3 hours before the event. Again so that you empty. Sip regularly during the event and BEFORE you feel thirsty. Feeling thirsty means the body has already started to dehydrate. Back to blinking. Watching good shooters over the years indicates to me that good shooters blink....regularly and often. The madness of this is that by blinking, the eye and retina are rested by "black" and in the immediate few seconds after the blink the eye picks up subtle and higher detail. In other words it sees a good picture immediately after the blink. By not blinking and thus staring at the target, the image is tends to burn in. Burn in equals a perceived "perfect picture" but the good shot rarely follow. Moral. Blink and drink and the eyes will be merry!!! Trust the "blinked picture". Test it out by conciously shooting 20 to 30 shots by shooting less than 3 seconds after blinking. You will be surprised. Ross Mason ******************************************************************** Please give me your opinion on how I have configured some additional weights on an Ans 2002 CA Alu rifle. I have scoured my USAS rules manual pages R8 - R9 and can find no restrictions on what I have done. Monica wants to counterbalance her Anschutz air rifle so I have added weights - a simple nut/bolt/washer configuration on the right side of the stock. The total weight of the rifle is now 5.485 kg which is under the 5.5kg max for air rifles. However is the physical configuration measurement of the stock now still legal? Please see attached pictures. Thanks, Rob Amagna [Editor - this would involve rule interpretations so you should ask USA Shooting competitions personnel. It COULD violate the exterior weights rule though the AR-50 & LG300 come with bars where weights can be added so they are pretty lenient on that rule apparently. I have never seen a bar out to the side like your's is. For those interested, Rob has a bolt with washers on it running parallel to the bore but it's out to the side about 1-1.5 inches. They regulate cheekpiece width but I don't see how this would fall in that category. Perhaps someone could complain it violates the spirit of the rules somehow though I don't see what advantage you would have.] ******************************************************************** There is an exellent practice facility in the Los Angeles area. Actually it is in City of Commerce. It is open for rapid fire practice on Tuesday afternoons. It is a 50 foot range with individual controls on each booth. After the nationals we are going to have practice in the afternoons and matches in the evenings on the second Tues. of each month. Costs are $40 to join, plus $5 a day, or $100 for the year. Matches are $3 each and do not count toward classifications. Members could practice any Tues. and Wed. afternoon. Conventional 900 matches are held Wed. night. Anyone interested contact me for more info. City of Commerce range is in Veterans park. Southbound on 5 take Slauson off ramp. Continue on accross Slauson on Gage. Turn left on Zindell and go to end of street to gate and turn right. go into building to elevator, punch #4. When you get off you are there. Starting in July we shall be having a rapid fire match second Tues. at 5:30. Anyone that can show basic firearms training welcome. Jerry Usher ******************************************************************** I assume you would want the air rifle at max weight, is that correct? Jim [Editor - I have mine at max but I'm certain there are many who don't do that. It depends upon what balance works best for YOU. I've gone from one extreme to the other and now prefer as much weight as possible on the barrel so it feels more like smallbore. Theory would say heavy is better in most cases. Erratic movement will be dampened (force won't have as great an effect on more mass) but the sways will potentially be of a greater amplitude (more mass means more momentum).] ******************************************************************** I think another consideration is this: if an individual shoots both precision air and smallbore, ideally, the "feel" (balance, etc) would be as close as possible for both, given any rule restrictions. I was a bit surprised, in standing, after shooting an LG300 for awhile and then picking up a KK 200 PM. The KK 200 felt like it weighed a ton. I think the idea of more weight on the barrel of the air rifle is a good one and intend to try this. R/Lee ******************************************************************** >> I think we all have been there. My favorite is as a pistol shooter when you look at the sights and the gun seems to be waving around like a magic wand and the shots are sprayed all over the target like you were spraying it with automatic fire. If I'm practicing those days I usually just put it down and come back to it later, it's not worth the frustration (as I shoot for sport not for a living). I can relate to days like that also. The main advice I have for you is that when you are having a great day and it seems that nothing could ever go wrong, take time to focus on what exactly you are doing to get here. Write these factors down. Everything from physical factors such as what you ate and how much sleep you got to the more complicated mental factors (which are way more important in a sport 90%+ mental) such as how ready you were to shoot the match, what your mind is thinking as you pull the trigger, how much and how good is your competition, and how calm are you through the course of fire as just a few examples. When you write these down, you will start to see a pattern of what makes your good shooting tick. Your scores will become more consistent as you begin to understand what exactly you must do in order to shoot good. Also, you will also have a reference point to fall back on when something goes wrong. Sarah ******************************************************************** I am looking at purchasing a new rear sight, in particular a Hammerli 587 for a Feinwerkbau air rifle. Do you have any knowledge of these sights or can you please ask your readers for any comments on these sights, are they being used by the elite, how do they compare with the Anschutz version, are they any good ? Thanks Craig Plim [Editor - I don't know the model numbers, but some Hammerlis are very highly regarded.] ******************************************************************** whats your preference belt or braces for shooting pants? thanks in advance Michelle [Editor - Well that's an interesting question. I've often wondered what benefit people get from wearing braces (suspenders to many of you out there). Why would their trousers fall down when fastened? I suspect a belt could provide a bit more support to the lower back area. I have purchased one but haven't gotten to shoot since then so I don't know if it would help or not yet. Most people I've seen don't use either or use a belt, but there are several top shooters with braces and I doubt they wear them for the heck of it.] ******************************************************************** Braces are best as they do not cut the blood flow through out the body. A belt is far to restrictive during the position taken. Chet ******************************************************************** Michelle, Belts can hold up your pants like Braces but they add width to your pants (ie more stuff to rest your elbow on). I use braces so they will keep you pants up in kneeling and standing, and they dont add any material to your pants but they work in kneeling as well. Its your choice on which you want, try each and find out. -Ross ******************************************************************** I am considering looking into getting a set of shooting glasses for my prone rifle shooting. I have found that several companies make glasses (Jaggi, Knobloch Optik, Champion (Olympic & World)), but I don't know what I should look for as far as features go. Any recommendations on make, model, etc? Currently I wear perscription glasses to do everything, but I find that I am not looking through the center of the lens when I am in position. This causes my eye to fatugue, not to mention dry out. Anyway, my perscription in my shooting eye is -4.75, 0.25, 135. That means I can't see anything without my glasses. I have found several places that sell shooting glasses, but I didn't see (no pun intended) that they offered perscription lenses in anything stronger than -.25, and that wont do a darn thing for me. Are stronger perscription lenses a special order, or will I have to go to my optometrists and have lenses ground to fit the frame that I buy? Which brings up another question, what size lens should I look for? (25mm, 37mm, 42mm, etc) Also, since both eyes are equally bad, should I get two lenses, or just one and adjust the spotting scope accordingly? Any input will be greatly appreciated. Jim Bongiovanni [Editor - I'd go with the Knobloch since they're the cheapest (or were at least). They will all allow you to adjust the lens anywhere you need it. You will get your lens made for the frame where you get your normal glasses from hopefully. Some places can't do the round lenses. Should be about $30. Lens size and whether you get 2 are up to you. If you go for only 1, I'd get the larger size so it's easier to see around the sight at the flags and such. If you get 2, I'd get a small one for the aiming eye because people have told me they are easier to determine that you're centered in the rear iris. I can't say whether that is true or not, but I don't have any problem with using the larger one (37mm).] ******************************************************************** well .. I'll restrict my comments to the Champion range, as thats what I use and know. If you are doing 3P I'd go for the Olympic, as you can record the settings easily for the different set-ups ... if just prone or pistol, go for the World 2 ( not World) as it has adjustable bridge height and a silicone bridge piece thats very comfortable. > a darn thing for me. Are stronger perscription lenses a special > order, or will I have to go to my optometrists and have lenses ground > to fit the frame that I buy? yes .. 100% definitely go to your optometrist .. or better yet, a optometrist that knows about prescriptions for shooters ... theres, apparently, a small correction of +something(sphere) they apply that sometimes helps a bit more. You need it to work right for you. I have +1, -0.75, 15 .. hardly a strong prescription but it was enough to change the grey fuzzy bull into a reasonably crisp and clear one .. and also meant I could complete a 60 shot course of fire without struggling to see at the end. > Which brings up another question, what > size lens should I look for? (25mm, 37mm, 42mm, etc) Also, since > both eyes are equally bad, should I get two lenses, or just one and > adjust the spotting scope accordingly? just using one is normal, and adjust your scope, with only .25 of cylinder, it should be fine once adjusted. rifle, go for 25mm .. pistol use one of the bigger ones, as you prefer. If you try to use the bigger ones for rifle, esp. for prone, you find it will be impossible to use the centre of the lens as it will not be able to move it far enough to the left, and your bridge/nose gets in the way. smallbore rifle choose a glass lens, with the lowest Abe number you can get. fullbore a plastic lens is recommended, GET THE ALIGNMENT AID .. it costs about 18 GBP / 30 dollars ... invaluable, in fact essential. Allows you to get the lens exactly central and at 90 degrees to the rearsight. If you are in England I would recommend Stewards of Bisley for a knoweldgeable and professional service. -- Robin Szemeti ******************************************************************** As for shooting glasses, I use Knobloch with their big (37mm i think) lenses. The shooting glasses are nice but the big lense is hard to center for me. With my head position and the 37mm holder of the lense bumps into the nose piece. This is not cool, but with a little finessing i got it to fit. As for which set to buy, Knobloch's are ok if you want low price glasses, but the new contender is Varga. For $80 you cant beat them, strong parts and a simple design. My sister will get some soon, and when she dose I'll send the Pros and Cons out. That's just my 2 cents, hope it helps -Ross [Editor - Now I know there's a cheaper option! Both Center Shot and Pilkington's carry the Varga in the US.] ******************************************************************** Dear Jim, My name is Matt Dardas and I have been shooting competitively for 37 years. I have worn very thick glasses (-10.50) since kindengarten. I shot with 'street glasses for a number of years until I could afford a pair of Knoblocks. I shot with them for two years and discarded them due to me losing a big bore match because of the frame design (the lense holder loosened during a rapid fire stage). I then purchased a Champion Frame from Luzerne, Switzerland (while I was on a business trip there) and have used them for the past 6 years with success. I have found the Champion Frame to be sufficient for me to position the shooting lens (just one lens) perfectly. With my prescription, it is paramount that the lens be positioned perfectly, and I mean perfectly. You will need to use the smallest lens diameter that you can stand. The larger the diameter - the more peripheral distortion you will have. I used a 37mm diameter lens and had it ground by a local lens company. You may have to look high and low to find someone willing to grind it. AND, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT! GET THE EDGE OF THE LENS BLACK COATED SO NO LIGHT WILL ENTER IN FROM THE EDGES! It'll cost a few bucks but you will appreciate it. As a side note, I have just had Lasik surgery done so I hopefully will not have to struggle with the shooting lens anymore. I admit I am the expert at shooting lenses - I have suffered through it and I know your concerns. Just write me if you have any questions. Matt Dardas ******************************************************************** Matt, Thanks for the info. I appreciate the information that you and the other shooters on the list have given me. Now I just have to decide: Champion, Varga, Jaggi, or Knobloch? Hmmm. Champion is very pricy, but very good I'm sure. I've heard nothing (good or bad) about Jaggi or Knobloch. And Varga appears to be the least expensive. from what I can tell from web sites and what not, all of these companies frames have about the same features. Did you find that to be true with your Knobloch's and Cahmpions'? Jim ******************************************************************** Jim, Knoblock frames do not have the adjustability or the sturdiness of the Champion. You want your lens to sit perfectly in the center of vision ALL the time. In my experience, the Knoblock frames drifted on my face (nose) causing the lens to move out of alignment (very easily). It only takes less than a 1/4 of a millimeter for the lens to move and your vision is impaired (at the high powers of correction. (At -10.50, there is only a 2 millimeter diameter to see clearly from). Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth. Good luck! Matt Dardas ******************************************************************** My Knobloch pistol glasses have round-wire frames. The attachments can easily be swiveled in any direction around the frame, i.e. the lens can be placed closer or farther from your eye. The down side is they sometimes want to swivel on their own. Champions have square frames I think; more rigid but possibly less adjustable. My Knoblocks are fine for pistol shooting. They have the large lens (non-prescription) with attached iris. However I already have the nose piece adjusted as far down as it will go (also about as far to the right as the lens will go) for head-up pistol shooting, and the large lens won't move up/left far enough to center for rifle shooting. It is supposed to be a combination pistol/rifle frame (adjustable for either), but as presently configured I find it unacceptable for rifle shooting; in prone, I find I am always looking at the frame instead of the target. Maybe I need riser blocks under the sights or something, but no I can't raise my head any straighter and still see through the sights. I plan to buy some Vargas rifle glasses and do whatever is necessary to make them sit high on my face, in part because I don't want to mess up the pistol adjustments by reconfiguring for rifle. I have not seen any except Knoblock & Champion so far. - Benjamin ******************************************************************** Glasses My experience of Knoblochs is that they have been acceptable. The major piece that supports the main lens crapped out cos it was plastic. The replacement was metal....fixed the problem. I too found the damn nose piece and the bar was too far from the head and too low. So I bent the nose piece to make it fit my face. Two pairs of needle nose pliers worked OK. Sit nice now. The screws that hold the bar work loose from time to time, but I am not a gorilla when it comes to tightening small screws...they break.... so I just check them regularly. Ross Mason ******************************************************************** End of UIT Mailing List #23 Michael Ray - DBA & Systems Engineer Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. Rifle Coach UIT Shooting Page - http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1190/index.htm